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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Is There Anything Which We Can Or Should Do About Islamism?
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Ihe analogy between Phelps/Chick on the one hand, and Taleban, Al Qaeda, misogyny, theocracy, violence against other religions, etc. on the other, would have to be one of the most desperate and unconvincing ever drawn.
Except in terms of effects. "We aren't them - and the jackasses saying we are are trying to attack us directly so are our enemies" is a constant. And have you ever seen what happens when an outsider pitches into a family feud?
By referring to 'Islamism' and asking what should be done about it you are driving the moderates to team up with the extremists.
quote:
Actually, if you read what I wrote instead of what you would like me to have written, you would see that I have consistently drawn a distinction between "moderate and progressive followers of Islam" and Islamism (a term which I did not invent).
The term 'Islamism' implies that the radicals are the default. It centres the word Islam on them. It makes the ones you want to court appear to be the abberations.
As for you not inventing the term, there are plenty of terms that I did not invent but will not use because they are gratuitously insulting and counter-productive. I'm sure you can think of a few racist slurs you didn't invent as well.
This is the problem Dawkins has communicating. He talks about Christians and the mainstream Christians all take a listen and say "Nothing to do with us. He's talking about the fundamentalists." This ignores that he blasts the mainstream Christians for being not even wrong but because they can dismiss him based on half his critique they do so.
quote:
If similar abuses were being commmitted over as widespread an area, and with the same level of intensity, by avowed Christians, it is inconceivable that anyone would demand that they be treated in isolation, with no reference to their common Christian element.
You mean we can't lump the Indian Mutiny, the Belgian Congo, much of the race for Africa, and just about every other part of the late 19th Century/early 20th Century Christian countries conquering even more of the world together? Islam's got a long way to go to match the Christian record reaching from Cortez and Pizzaro right through to the end of World War 2 and decolonialisation.
quote:
And if anyone believes that this is in fact the case, then they should be equally free (because it would be equally legitimate) to ask "how should we respond to the dark side of Christianity?".
Oops, they already do!
But that is precisely the equivalent of what you aren't doing. What you are doing is asking "How should we respond to Christ-worship?" And then defining 'Christ-worship' to be the dark side of Christianity. Islamism makes the default to be the intolerant group.
If you actually want to make a difference, the first thing you can do is scrub the word Islamism from your vocabulary. And then advise everyone you know who uses it to do the same. Because every single time you use the loaded term 'Islamism' it adds another straw to the problem you claim to oppose.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
The term 'Islamism' implies that the radicals are the default
You managed to say in one pithy sentence what I stumbled around trying to say in a few paragraphs.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
This morning I had the opportunity to discuss some of the issues on this thread with a friend of mine, a Sunni Muslim of Gujerati ancestry who grew up in South Africa and is now working in IT in Australia.
He is quite aware that Australia is not a Christian country, despite 64% identifying as Christian in the last census (2006; the figures for last year’s census are not yet available), because a lot fewer than 10% attend church regularly.
His main gripe with Australia appears to be that his local mosque is full of Muslims from the former Yugoslavia whose language (presumably Serbo-Croat) he can’t understand.
He seemed genuinely mystified when I asked him whether Muslims felt any resentment toward Christianity or the West because of the Crusades.
His answer was along the lines of, “Why would we? That was ages ago, and there are no Crusaders around today”.
Interestingly, given the recurrence of the “true Scotchman” theme on this and other threads, he was inclined to treat Muslim terrorists and suicide bombers as not “real” Muslims.
His attitude toward use of the term “Islamism” was one of indifference.
He did not enthusiastically endorse it, but was not offended by it, and recognized it as one way of describing Muslim extremism.
Obviously with well over one billion Muslims in the world it is pointless to extrapolate from one individual Muslim’s opinions, but my friend’s responses should at least raise cautions about common stereotypes, clichés and generalizations which take the form of, “Muslims believe that all Westerners are Christians”, “Muslims are still outraged over the Crusades”, or “Muslims find the expression Islamism bigoted and offensive”.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Kaplan Corday: Obviously with well over one billion Muslims in the world it is pointless to extrapolate from one individual Muslim’s opinions, but my friend’s responses should at least raise cautions about common stereotypes, clichés and generalizations which take the form of, “Muslims believe that all Westerners are Christians”, “Muslims are still outraged over the Crusades”, or “Muslims find the expression Islamism bigoted and offensive”.
Are those common stereotypes, clichés and generalizations? Because I never heard the first two of them.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
After over five years of living in Turkey and being surrounded by Muslims and having nothing but Muslim friends, I feel I have a slightly better understanding of how Muslims in the Middle East feel about the Crusades. (Your friend isn't of ME descent, but rather from Western India, why they'd be upset about the crusades, I don't know?).
We've also already heard from a Muslim on this thread that the term 'Islamism' is offensive to at least himself and his Muslim friends.
So yeah, extrapolation from one encounter is pretty pointless. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
... Your friend isn't of ME descent, but rather from Western India, why they'd be upset about the crusades, I don't know?..
Simple answer. He could be a member of the Tabligh movement which originated in India, and is, I believe quite strong amongst Indian Muslims in South Africa.
For the Tabligh movement and varieties of Islam common in the West I heartily recommend Ziauddin Sardar's "Desperately Seeking Paradise".
With a copy in your pocket you could amaze your Muslim and Nonmuslim friends alike! Be popular! Be considered an oracle!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziauddin_Sardar
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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