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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Among mainline denominations what is the dominant theory of the atonement?
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irish_lord99
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# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
How the atonement works is a mystery - a great mystery.
How strange then that the scriptures are so definitive:
Acts 10:43 "Of him all the prophets bear witness that through his name every one who believes in him has received forgiveness of sins."
That's hardly a definitive statement of how atonement works, but rather that there is atonement through Christ.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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Gamaliel
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Posted
If you hadn't noticed by now, Irish Lord, Jamat's modus operandi tends to be to simply throw a proof-text at someone and say, 'Look at this, you heathen ... it's plain as a pike-staff ...'
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
More seriously, if he's going to start bandying verses around, two can play at that game:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.—1 TIMOTHY 3:16.
'Great is the MYSTERY of godliness ...'
If scripture can use the term 'mystery' then surely we shouldn't shy away from doing the same?
What could be more mysterious than God being manifest in the flesh?
What could be more mysterious than one of the Divine Persons of the Godhead coming to earth 'for us men and our salvation', suffering death, only to be raised to life?
'T'is mystery all, the immortal dies,' as Charles Wesley put it.
If 'mystery' is good enough for the Apostle Paul and good enough for Charles Wesley then it's good enough for me.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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irish_lord99
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# 16250
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Posted
Agreed! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If 'mystery' is good enough for the Apostle Paul and good enough for Charles Wesley then it's good enough for me.
It is worth pointing out that this cuts both ways - i.e. it equally applies to those who have posted on this thread strongly rejecting PSA as an atonement model.
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tclune
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# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If 'mystery' is good enough for the Apostle Paul and good enough for Charles Wesley then it's good enough for me.
It is worth pointing out that this cuts both ways - i.e. it equally applies to those who have posted on this thread strongly rejecting PSA as an atonement model.
Right. Whatever you find abhorrent isn't really vile -- it's a mystery...
--Tom Clune
[ 28. May 2012, 12:30: Message edited by: tclune ]
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Steve H
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Posted
I take it PSA is penal sunbstitution (which I don't accept), but what's the A stand for?
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tclune
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# 7959
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Posted
Atonement.
--Tom Clune
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Steve H
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Posted
Oh, Thanks. I though it must be, but it seems a bit redundant, since we're talking specifically about theories of the atonement.
FWIW, I, like some others on here apparently, believe that Christ's death and resurrection obtained forgiveness and reconciliation for all who avail themselves of it, but I've given up worrying about how it does. Most of the theories have something to commend them (though PSA less than most, imo, and the "ransom" theory nothing), but none are completely satisfactory.
[ 28. May 2012, 12:39: Message edited by: Steve H ]
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
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Jamat
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Posted
quote:
'Great is the MYSTERY of godliness ...
The word 'how' is a mystery in itself.
To me, the fact that faith in Christ's finished work forgives answers the question 'how.'
If that is unsatisfying, and you want 'how' to refer to the nuts and bolts of God's modus operandi in the regeneration process, I would totally agree that that kind of understanding is not accessible to us.
BTW the concept of 'mystery' as used by Paul applies to the revelation of Christ that was formerly unknown but shown to him. It refers to truth concealed in the OT but revealed in the new.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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Johnny S
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Right. Whatever you find abhorrent isn't really vile -- it's a mystery...
--Tom Clune
Er, that's the point Tom. Take it up with Gam then.
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Gamaliel
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Posted
@JohnnyS - well, yes ... of course it cuts both ways. I wasn't suggesting it didn't. What I WAS suggesting was exactly what Jamat has subsequently supplied, that a complete understanding of how God works things out in the regeneration process isn't accessible to us.
I don't see how there's anything exceptionable in acknowledging that. Whatever our prevailing or dominant view of the atonement, we are all agreed on that point, surely?
And of course I agree with Jamat that Christ's finished work (the effects of which are continuing and are still reverberating as it were) provides forgiveness. Where have I ever argued otherwise?
And yes, of course I know that the concept of 'mystery' as used by the Apostle Paul applies to the revelation of Christ that was previously unknown but revealed to the disciples - and to him as to one untimely born. Again, I don't see how what I've posted calls that into question. I fully acknowledge that.
Where I might differ would be on the respective 'weight' given to particular emphases. I'm also happy to live with a degree of ambiguity too.
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Evensong
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Posted
Question: For those of you that believe in PSA, can you please tell me how the resurrection fits in?
I got a short synopsis of Stoker's belief of PSA here recently and saw no mention of the resurrection.
Or does it not fit in?
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Gamaliel
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Posted
It does fit. But you wouldn't always get that impression from the writings, preaching and prayers of some ardent PSA-ists. If you pressed them on the issue, though, I'm sure the vast, vast, vast majority would stress the importance of the resurrection - even if they had to go beyond PSA language to describe it. Just because someone holds to a PSA position doesn't imply that they are weak on the resurrection - simply that they're so used to stressing and emphasising the PSA part that the resurrection can SOMETIMES be tagged on as an afterthought.
But that's a very broad generalisation.
I doubt very much whether the PSA proponents on these Boards have a deficient view of the resurrection. I certainly wouldn't accuse JohnnyS, Mudfrog or Jamat of such a thing.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
From what you say (and I don't actually count you as a PSA adherent ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ) the resurrection doesn't fit into the atonement model itself tho.
Is that right?
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Johnny S
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
the resurrection doesn't fit into the atonement model itself tho.
Is that right?
No.
The resurrection is essential to PSA. As a model most opponents complain that PSA is obsessed with how atonement 'works'. The resurrection shows that it does work. No resurrection, no PSA.
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tclune
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Can you explain how please Johnny? Where does it fit in?
The trick isn't over when the magician makes the assistant disappear -- it's when she comes back on stage.
--Tom Clune
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Evensong
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Posted
But if the wrath is averted and salvation achieved by making the assistant disappear, what's the point of him reappearing?
Superfluous it would seem.
Nice trick, but that's about all.
[ 31. May 2012, 13:08: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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tclune
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Posted
Perhaps I should have explicitly included the implied smiley...
--Tom Clune
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footwasher
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# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Question: For those of you that believe in PSA, can you please tell me how the resurrection fits in?
I got a short synopsis of Stoker's belief of PSA here recently and saw no mention of the resurrection.
Or does it not fit in?
15 “Then he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people, and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat. 16 “He shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and thus he shall do for the tent of meeting which abides with them in the midst of their impurities. 17 “When he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household and for all the assembly of Israel. 18 “Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the LORD and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and of the blood of the goat and put it on the horns of the altar on all sides. 19 “With his finger he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it seven times and cleanse it, and from the impurities of the sons of Israel consecrate it.
20 “When he finishes atoning for the holy place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat. 21 “Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel and all their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and he shall lay them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands in readiness. 22 “The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to a solitary land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.
The first goat pays for the damage caused by sin. Guilt offering. Propitiation by payment, death on the Cross.
The second goat takes AWAY the sin. Sin bearer. Expiation by resurrection, from the tomb.
[ 31. May 2012, 15:22: Message edited by: footwasher ]
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
The second goat takes AWAY the sin. Sin bearer. Expiation by resurrection, from the tomb.
How does resurrection take away sin?
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
The trick isn't over when the magician makes the assistant disappear -- it's when she comes back on stage.
--Tom Clune
Nice one Tom.
I presume this means that you have a nice rational scientific explanation for the resurrection?
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Johnny S
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Can you explain how please Johnny? Where does it fit in?
The wages of sin is death (Romans 6: 23). Everybody dies.
If all Jesus did was die then there would be no atonement. This gets to the heart of the PSA model. It is also where CV is particularly weak. Jesus' victory is achieved by losing. CV has no explanation as to how that can be so. PSA, however, says that Jesus dies for the sins of humanity but rises again to demonstrate that atonement has been achieved. Without the resurrection Jesus would just be another human being receiving the wages of sin. Only the resurrection can demonstrate that more happened in the Christ event - that sin was dealt with once and for all.
CV has many strengths as a model but this area demonstrates why it needs the other models as well.
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footwasher
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
The second goat takes AWAY the sin. Sin bearer. Expiation by resurrection, from the tomb.
How does resurrection take away sin?
We confess.
9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1
The sinbearer takes on our sin:
21 “Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel and all their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and he shall lay them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands in readiness. 22 “The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to a solitary land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness. Lev 9
He goes to a place where we cannot follow:
John 7:34 You will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come."
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence.
So we have the Sin Bearer in the heavenly tabernacle, with our sins.
Now:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
IOW, we must have fellowship, abide in Him, have the unity with God that Jesus has, for His blood to be effective.
Eph 2: 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
And many, many other verses!
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Evensong
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Only the resurrection can demonstrate that more happened in the Christ event - that sin was dealt with once and for all.
I see....so it's mainly predicated on Pauls idea that all have died as in Adam and all are alive in Christ because he was the firstborn from the dead?
Like we have a new paradigm now?
Fair enough. But I don't see how that takes away sin.
Except that God has reversed death so sin must be removed right? It's kind of an assumption after the fact based on the premise of the argument.
And a bit tricky in the fact that we still die. We are not yet made immortal like Christ. So sin must still have a hold.
But I guess thats no different to any other atonement model that looks for the fulfillment of truth at the Second Coming.
So it's kind of like a cosmic transaction between God and Jesus to make us immortal I guess...
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
The second goat takes AWAY the sin. Sin bearer. Expiation by resurrection, from the tomb.
How does resurrection take away sin?
We confess.
I see.
We confess but we require an intermediary between God and us to do so effectively (which you claim is Jesus).
And his resurrection proves he is the effective intermediary?
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Johnny S
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
And a bit tricky in the fact that we still die. We are not yet made immortal like Christ. So sin must still have a hold.
Not quite.
We travel the same path as him. We are made 'immortal' the same way he was - by dying.
What has changed is that we don't stay dead.
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footwasher
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# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
The second goat takes AWAY the sin. Sin bearer. Expiation by resurrection, from the tomb.
How does resurrection take away sin?
We confess.
I see.
We confess but we require an intermediary between God and us to do so effectively (which you claim is Jesus).
And his resurrection proves he is the effective intermediary?
His right to mediate for us comes from the confession we make that he is the Deliverer. Our belief makes his work efficacious. Just as the cheque is payable only when presented. If people don't believe there is money in the account, that money will not benefit them. Judah never believed Jesus was a deliverer, the Messiah promised to the Jews. Jesus said the disciples were clean, but not all of them. Judas's unbelief meant Jesus could not intervene for him, ask for overlooking ofhis lapses.
The resurrection did not enable Jesus to mediate: he was already doing that, before the crucifixion. But you're right that His resurrection changed things. His work now means more than overlooking of lapses, forgiveness of sins. Now it means removal of the habits that causes sins.
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
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footwasher
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Ah. So the punishment taken allows for an afterlife?
Absolutely, no more death as the wages have been paid. But more than that, bad habits, which prevented us from sharing in ministering are taken away:
Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.
Phi 3:10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
His right to mediate for us comes from the confession we make that he is the Deliverer. Our belief makes his work efficacious.
So when people confessed their sins before the resurrection they were not efficacious before God?
Only the resurrected one can wash our sins away when we confess because there is money in the bank so God is happy to cash the cheque?
Doesn't that mean all sins before the resurrection were not washed away as the Jews believed they were each year in the atonement festival?
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Ah. So the punishment taken allows for an afterlife?
Absolutely, no more death as the wages have been paid.
Well we do still die. But I assume you mean when Christ returns nobody will.
Interesting that other atonement theories espouse the same idea - just don't think punishment of Jesus is required.
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
But more than that, bad habits, which prevented us from sharing in ministering are taken away:
That's not something unique to PSA either.
In other atonement theories its Grace that does that tho. Not cash in the bank.
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Jamat
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Posted
quote:
So when people confessed their sins before the resurrection they were not efficacious before God?
Hebrews explains this. Before the crucifixion, animal sacrifice temporarily made atonement. After it, the cross works as a once for all time atonement for sin, retrospectivel for past lives.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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footwasher
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# 15599
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Posted
Evensong wrote:
So when people confessed their sins before the resurrection they were not efficacious before God?
Nothing was efficacious:
Heb 10:4 For the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins.
Before the Cross, we were held prisoner:
Gal 3:21 For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
The Law is not a tutor, able to teach, but a pedagogue. In Ancient times, a pedagogue was a servant entrusted to take children to school. Today, an analogy would be a school bus.
Those who obeyed the Law got on the bus. They were in transit, on the way to right knowledge, SAFE! Those who carried out the law, sacrifice included, major issues of the law, justice, mercy and love included, are in this group. The Pharisees were intuiting an afterlife. Jesus expressed it as Abraham's Bosom!
I repeat, faithful believers were not cleansed of their sin because the blood of bulls were not efficacious. But they did not go to a place of punishment, but were kept in a transitory state.
Only the resurrected one can wash our sins away when we confess because there is money in the bank so God is happy to cash the cheque?
Yup!
Doesn't that mean all sins before the resurrection were not washed away as the Jews believed they were each year in the atonement festival?
Absolutely! That was a type/shadow of what Moschiach would do. The problem was, ”How does Moschiach figure in this?” And ”Who is Moschiach?”
Well we do still die. But I assume you mean when Christ returns nobody will.
Whoever believes in Christ never dies. Even if he dies, he still lives. Death is separation from God.
John 11:23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.”
Interesting that other atonement theories espouse the same idea - just don't think punishment of Jesus is required.
it's not punishment strictly. It's reparation. If my brother breaks the china in the display, I pay the bill. The bill just happens to be death.
That's not something unique to PSA either.
They are different facets of the same phenomenon.
In other atonement theories its Grace that does that tho. Not cash in the bank.
The idea of an analogy is to simplify by using everyday elements!
[ 02. June 2012, 07:39: Message edited by: footwasher ]
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
So when people confessed their sins before the resurrection they were not efficacious before God?
Hebrews explains this. Before the crucifixion, animal sacrifice temporarily made atonement. After it, the cross works as a once for all time atonement for sin, retrospectivel for past lives.
Hebrews doesn't explain.
If it worked as you say then there would be no further need for confession.
But that's not what footwasher said.
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
Evensong wrote:
So when people confessed their sins before the resurrection they were not efficacious before God?
Nothing was efficacious:
Eeeeeeeeekk! I shouldn't have asked further than the role of the resurrection. I cant reconcile your views with reality ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
But thanks for trying to explain.
[ 02. June 2012, 14:20: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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Jamat
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Posted
quote:
Hebrews doesn't explain
Heb 9:25-7
Heb 7:27
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Hebrews doesn't explain
Heb 9:25-7
Heb 7:27
I'll try again.
Hebrews does not explain how the resurrection takes away sin.
Footwasher said it was by confessing that the resurrection takes a way sin.
That, however, does not accord with PSA.
The Hebrews passages you quote just explain why we no longer need to have blood sacrifices in the temple. One human sacrifice covers all animal sacrifices.
Doesn't have anything to do with confession.
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footwasher
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Posted
Quote
To walk in the light is not to live without sin: otherwise, the blood of Jesus would not be needed to cleanse us while we are walking in the light. All the verbs in this verse are present tense. The force seems to be that while we are walking in the light the blood of Jesus is cleansing us from our sins.
This text is not, therefore, speaking of being "in fellowship" and "out of fellowship" on a moment-by-moment basis. If "light" means "exposure," this would mean that one second we're admitting that we're sinners, and denying it the next. Such a view is neither true to life nor to the scriptures.
But if "light" means honesty and integrity and transparency, then to walk in the light is not absolute holiness. But it is the necessary prerequisite to holiness.
Daniel Wallace
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
So when people confessed their sins before the resurrection they were not efficacious before God?
Well Hebrews does answer that issue. It points out that forgiveness looked forward to the cross before and back to it after.
I am not sure about the resurrection issue. IMV that was God's seal of approval on Jesus ministry but it is also true that Satan's power over him and all humanity was broken at the cross. Death could not hold him since the sting of death is sin and he is sinless. (2Cor)
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
So when people confessed their sins before the resurrection they were not efficacious before God?
Well Hebrews does answer that issue. It points out that forgiveness looked forward to the cross before and back to it after.
God loved and forgave sinners before the time of Jesus, but that forgiveness was made effective by God in Jesus, later in time. Just as God loves and forgives sinners now, after the time of Jesus, but that forgiveness has been made effective by God in Jesus, earlier in time.
As God is not part of our earth time, that's just the same.
quote:
I am not sure about the resurrection issue.
Can't separate cross and resurrection from the whole miracle of the incarnation. To us they look like a series of events separated by time, in God's eternal plan they are different facets of the same thing.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
God loved and forgave sinners before the time of Jesus, but that forgiveness was made effective by God in Jesus, later in time.
You do realise this view is totally unbiblical don't you?
Those of you that profess to "believe in the bible" make up such a load of crap sometimes.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
The resurrection vindicates Jesus, proves him to be Lord and Christ. It shows that he is the Lamb of God.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Interesting. Many of you that believe in PSA have different understandings of the resurrection.
It would seem that it isn't crucial to PSA for some of you.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
There would be no point having any theory if there was no resurrection.
It covers all bases.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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