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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: 'New church' Restorationism - then and now
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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673
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Posted
Gamaliel: quote:
doctors, nurses, engineers
All of which would have been university educated (as probably poets and philosophers).
I notice you didn't mention care assistants, clerks, bouncers.
This fits with my observation. Except for one notable exception - a Harvestime Church where the majority of people were obese and, from their clothes, poor (this was cvonfirmed to me rather unkindly by a sociology lecturer who knew the church).
But what about today? Is restorationism still middle class (and white?)(and heterosexual?)?
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
within NF the way of being church and the governance of it is not the same in every local church. In practice there is no one standard operating system. The amount of consensus and say church members have in what the church does varies. See my earlier posts for examples.
On this we agree, but to me the crucial difference is what the theology says and what is extant on this issue.
In baptist circles (for instance) you have various bodies, authorities, and tomes and tomes of writings about church government which can be used to counter abusive leadership practices. There's a body of resources you can appeal to to whistleblow.
Within NF, you and those currently in NF on this thread have often repeated "well in this or that NF church it doesn't seem to work that way", but none of you have been able to point to any sort of authority or ecclesiology in NF supporting these practices. It all points the other way.
I think the pieces of restorationist literature I've quoted, specifically Terry Virgo and PJ Smyth, are quite unequivocal in how the authority of apostles over elders and of elders over congregations is structured in restorationist thinking. You all keep saying "it wasn't like that where I was" or "it's changed now" but no restorationist leaders seem to have gone into print with such a view.
That's why I contend the good things you or I may have taken from our time in restorationism are in spite of its ecclesiology and not because of it.
The question is whether the ecclesiology is starting to change. Wouldn't be the first time in history that changes in practice preceded theory. In an movement like NFI, where "we got it wrong" or even "not quite as right as we thought" tends to stick in the corporate throat, you might have to wait awhile to see the rhetoric catch up with the reality.
[ 09. January 2012, 17:10: Message edited by: Ramarius ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I don't think it's possible for changes relating directly to the top-down nature of the authority which has historically bound a movement together (and which still seems to, see the PJ Smyth quote...) to be passed back "up" the hierarchy without the movement shedding its distinctive identity and ecclesiology all together.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Gamaliel
I'm sure you'll recall the Gerald Coates "bon mot" about this. Gerald is not exactly one of my favourite leaders in the new church movement, but I (vaguely) remember him describing a certain type of church within which "everything was forbidden, unless it was compulsory". I think it might have been the Brethren (probably the more Exclusive assemblies).
Or maybe it was Adrian Plass who said it? Or even both? Memory plays tricks after a while.
Either way, the phrase "forbidden, if not compulsory" has stuck with me. In quantum mechanics it's called the Totalitiarian principle. Which seems very appropriate to me. Such tendencies tend to turn me into a "naughty boy, definitely not the Messiah", whenever I come across them.
And I'm sure you're right, that such independent-minded stroppiness is not just to be found in the nonconformists, nor is it to be found so much amongst us self-proclaimed noncos as I'd like. Rebels with causes, that's what we are. You don't want us too much in evidence at church meetings, unless you want a good old barney. But if the price of liberty is eternal vigilance, you need a few of us around being vigilant, even if sometimes we get paranoid about exploitative possibilities. Our awkwardness can be very useful at times.
What an excellent thread.
I wholeheartedly agree with what is being stated.
But as a rabid non conformist...........not for long!
Perhaps this is the Protestant dilemma? Me, my Bible and God? It lends itself to strong opinions. We all know the pointlessness of trying to argue with someone who blandly states: ''God told me.''
Charismatic/resto churches have undergone a major evolutionary process over the last 20 years. It is my experience that the more hard edged ones have just fizzled out. What has replaced them is a much more canny and to a degree reflective leadership. After all they exist in a much more 'post modern' world now and a South Wales PE teacher just won't cut it in the Home Counties.
There is still an itching for the next ''move of God'' (Todd Bentley any one), but much more discerning now here in the UK as a general rule and as Walker stated the charismatic movement has now gone mainstream and has been probably for 32 years or so.
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I don't think it's possible for changes relating directly to the top-down nature of the authority which has historically bound a movement together (and which still seems to, see the PJ Smyth quote...) to be passed back "up" the hierarchy without the movement shedding its distinctive identity and ecclesiology all together.
...and in that you may well be proved right. I think what NF will try and do is keep its apostolic language and terminology whilst subtly changing the dynamic. I want to see what appears on the new regional websites.
Certainly in my region, if the written explanations don't reflect current practice, I'll be asking some questions. We need to be consistent.
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't think there was ever any straight, formal, easily dateable cut-off point ... but by the time I came onto the scene in the early '80s, people like Michael Harper and so on were certainly seen as yesterday's men ...
Of course the interesting postscript to all of this - in light of your post - is that Michael Harper ended up as an Orthodox priest.
I tend to think that people imprint on whatever forms of authority they experienced early in their church life, so it will be interesting to see the forms of christianity that people might migrate to from restorationism.
I've not encountered large numbers of public school types in restorationist circles - but that is in comparison with churches run by Bash campers.
[ 09. January 2012, 20:33: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Paraphrasing Ramarius:
what restorationism may try and do is keep its apostolic language and terminology whilst subtly changing the dynamic.
I think we've had a good look at what restorationism has been. This comment sort of takes us back to the question from Ramarius that prompted this thread:
quote:
How would you characterise the various 'morphed' forms of Restorationism? If I didn't know what I was looking for, how would I identify it?
There seems to be a consensus that "hard-line" restorationism, with "delegated authority" and so on, is alive and well although possibly not practiced as zealously as it once was in movements self-identifying as restorationist. History suggests the hard-liners might end up looking something like the Catholic Apostolic Church (or not).
But "remnant hard-line restorationism" aside, how might the dynamic of restorationism change in the way Ramarius suggests? If one takes away the underlying authority structure, is there a dynamic that could enable restorationism to continue as a distinct movement? What might it be? How might restorationism be, um, renewed? Or are all restorationists either going to evaporate à la R2 or become Orthodox...?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If one takes away the underlying authority structure, is there a dynamic that could enable restorationism to continue as a distinct movement? What might it be? How might restorationism be, um, renewed?
I rather suspect that like a lot of other movements Restorationism as a distinct subgroup is likely to be largely generational.
One of the problems that beset movements which make a huge virtue out of informality is that they tend not to have too much institutional memory (which is in short supply these days anyway).
So 'long term future' is likely to mean the next ten to fifteen years, by which time I expect a small rump of hard core restorationists, a bunch of generic charismatics, and a bunch of health and wealth types.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Chris, I think we won't have to wait 15 years. The situation you describe with a rump of hardcore restorationists, a bunch of general charismatic renewalists from a restorationist background and a bunch of health-and-wealthers is here and NOW.
That is EXACTLY what has happened to what was Harvestime/Covenant Ministries.
I'd give it less than five years before New Frontiers goes a similar way - although they're likely to have slightly different subdivisions ... a rump of hardcore restorationists, a rump of general independent charismatics (some with Bethel tendencies) and a rump of others who seek to recapture elements of the more Reformed strand of their spiritual DNA - rather like Sovereign Grace in the US before its recent leadership issues.
As for the social class thing - well Harvestime/Covenant Ministries always had more working class elements than the 'southern' strands of restorationism - hence it played well in Yorkshire and in South Wales. A good friend from my northern days observed that one of the problems the set-up had was precisely because it fused a South Walian rugby-field PE ethos with a stubborn Yorkshire sensibility. A toxic mix ... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
That didn't mean that it didn't attract a smattering of Bash camp types. It most certainly did. Particularly the progeny of missionaries who'd sent their offspring back for a private English education. At its best, this could provide an interesting social mix ...
On the whole, though, it was largely lower middle class with a layer of professional people on top ... literally in some cases.
The worship and the oomph struck a chord with students though, so there was an increasing number of graduates around - although there was a certain amount of prejudice against arts and humanities graduates.
In terms of the people we picked up from scratch, as it were - the new converts rather than the transfers - these were often either students or people new to the area and looking for some kind of community or else fairly vulnerable people of one kind or other. We did pick up some suburbanite and established families ... but not very many. Like the Pentecostals, we tended to do well on council estates, although the attrition rate was very high. As time went on, I'd suggest that some Harvestime/Covenant Ministries churches became more working class in tone ... many of the better heeled or 'better' educated tended to move on after a while.
@Mark Wuntoo - I'm certainly not dissing doctors, nurses or engineers nor discounting the form of university education they received in favour of the kind experienced by poets and philosophers. I was just making a general observation ... poets and philosophers don't generally get things done, doctors, nurses, engineers, teachers - and care assistants of course - generally do. If you're in a setting which values spiritual entrepreneurship (within certain limits - as in Barnabus's 'compulsory' anecdote) then greater credence and value is going to go to those who get up and 'do'.
I did fit in to some extent. I've got a big gob on me and so, after a while, was up for testifying and prophesying (although this wasn't 'thus saith the Lord' but more a form of exhortation with some spiritual analogies or piquant/pertinent scriptural verses or illustrations) praying extemporaneously and generally displaying some 'hwyl' - as we'd call it in South Wales.
I was also seen as a 'man of the Word' and scriptural knowledge was valued highly - except when it led you to question what was going on ( ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ).
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As for the social class thing - well Harvestime/Covenant Ministries always had more working class elements than the 'southern' strands of restorationism - hence it played well in Yorkshire and in South Wales. A good friend from my northern days observed that one of the problems the set-up had was precisely because it fused a South Walian rugby-field PE ethos with a stubborn Yorkshire sensibility.
I'm reminded of Andrew Walker's comment that "Charismatics are middle-class Pentecostals". And, of course, while much of the early Pentecostal movement was solidly working class (e.g. the Jeffrey brothers, Smith Wigglesworth) and, in the US, black (something which the official histories somehow just failed to mention for decades), it did attract some "posh" people at the top, at least in Britain. And so you had Arthur (or was it Cecil?) Polhill-Turner, who'd been one of the "Cambridge Seven" missionaries to China, and Alexander Boddy the Anglican Vicar.
And, of course, the 1840's Albury Conferences which gave birth to the Catholic Apostolic Church and one strand of the Brethren, definitely attracted "gentlemen of a certain class".
What would be interesting to know is how the age and class structure of NFI today compared with (say) the profile of HTB-linked churches, or with most Baptist churches. I doubt if there's all that much difference with many of the latter.
[ 10. January 2012, 07:29: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'd agree with all of that, Baptist Trainfan. However, my guess would be that the social make-up of current NFI leaders wouldn't be that of HTB/New Wine type Anglicans and Baptists at the Mainstream end of things. Is Mainstream still going?
It was Cecil Polhill of the Cambridge Seven. Interestingly, Donald Gee, the great AoG elderstatesman, in his accounts of the way things developed felt that the Pentecostal movement in the UK rapidly distanced itself from the more well-heeled input of the early days. Cecil Polhill used to cultivate rather rough and ready preachers from the South Wales valleys - some of whom had more sound and fury than anything else.
There was a strong autodidact tradition in the South Wales valleys - both among trades unionists and 'chapel people'. There were elements of this within South Walian Pentecostalism ... particularly Elim. The AoG and the Apostolics could be a lot more wild and woolly. They weren't the brightest buttons, but to be fair, they weren't stupid either. They wouldn't have put up with some of the nonsense that's happened on the wider renewals scene ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sorry - must preview my posts ...
What I meant to write in relation to the social make-up of NFI leaders was - 'wouldn't be very different to' HTB/New Wine and Baptist charismatic leaders.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
And I must read other people's posts properly too - because you'd already made the point I've just reiterated - that the social make-up isn't that different across all of these groups.
Just as Chris Stiles has eloquently and cogently argued that the apparent 'distinctives' aren't that distinctive either.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
However, my guess would be that the social make-up of current NFI leaders wouldn't be that of HTB/New Wine type Anglicans and Baptists at the Mainstream end of things. Is Mainstream still going?
Yes but it's morphed.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I was also seen as a 'man of the Word' and scriptural knowledge was valued highly - except when it led you to question what was going on ( ).
You, too? Might have guessed! My life teaches me that such "man of the Word" flattery is best avoided.
I think the New Church movement is rediscovering the old truth that Protestantism has inbuilt fissile tendencies! You can try to keep the lid on by means of strong leadership and a totalitarian/utilitarian approach to the preservation of distinctives, but in the end things blow.
The mainstream Christian struggle remains the same; unity, (not uniformity), within diversity, (not tribalism). We work out what it means to be members, one of another, and we do so painfully and imperfectly. We are pilgrims on a journey with companions on the road. Help us now to help each other, walk a mile and bear the load.
Or as Jim Wallis put it, memorably, many years ago now. We have nothing to share with the world than what we share with one another.
[Late footnote: not sure if that is original Jim Wallis or he was quoting somebody else. I read it in "The Call to Conversion"]
[ 10. January 2012, 08:01: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
However, my guess would be that the social make-up of current NFI leaders wouldn't be that of HTB/New Wine type Anglicans and Baptists at the Mainstream end of things. Is Mainstream still going?
Yes but it's morphed.
Wow, straight into about 1985!
<#there's a river, there's a river...#>
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Gamaliel: quote:
I'm certainly not dissing doctors, nurses or engineers nor discounting the form of university education they received in favour of the kind experienced by poets and philosophers. I was just making a general observation ... poets and philosophers don't generally get things done, doctors, nurses, engineers, teachers - and care assistants of course - generally do. If you're in a setting which values spiritual entrepreneurship (within certain limits - as in Barnabus's 'compulsory' anecdote) then greater credence and value is going to go to those who get up and 'do'.
I certainly did not intend to suggest that you were. Just my observation that, by and large, the new churches I researched (visited about 50 different, some over a long period) were white, middle-class, and heterosexual and their leaders were middle-aged and male, too. (You know the stereotype: white, middle-class, middle-aged, heterosexual males).)
I was interested that Harvestime was more working class in the north (my illustration was taken from the north!).
Is it any different today? And I realise this is no different to the majority of churches.
Ah, Eutychus, 'there's a river' - just as I was getting out of contact it was the song going the rounds - so catchy, the latest fad at that time.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, the restorationists would see Fresh Streams as simply catching up with them, of course ...
In terms of how restorationist churches are made-up socially now ... that's difficult to assess, Mark Wuntoo. Anecdotally, the particular congregation I belonged to in a northern city now seems largely made up of students, asylum seekers and economic migrants of one form or other all held together (insofar as it does) by a core of original personnel who have stuck with it (and all respect to them for doing so) through thick and thin.
Numbers are way, way down on what they used to be. I remember when it peaked at around 400 (before the first of several splits). Now, from what I'm told, there are no more than about 40 regular adults plus kids and occasional visitors.
@Barnabas, well yes ... the whole apostle thing, though, was meant to stem the fissiparity and draw things together - 'until we all attain the unity of the faith' - Ephesians 4:13.
Of course, it didn't do that any more effectively than anything else. Arguably, it was even more divisive ...
@Mark Wuntoo. I'm intrigued as to which churches you looked at and which one had the poor people in it ... PM me ... I'd be interested.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@Barnabas, well yes ... the whole apostle thing, though, was meant to stem the fissiparity and draw things together - 'until we all attain the unity of the faith' - Ephesians 4:13.
Of course, it didn't do that any more effectively than anything else. Arguably, it was even more divisive ...
You know me well enough to know I don't do proof-texting, but NF-style church governance re Ephesians 4 appears to me to miss a scriptural simplicity.
quote:
Ephesians 4:
2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
It would be a very strange reading of those principles to think they didn't apply with equal, or even greater, force to apostles as well. There is a principle here of those who have (or claim to have) apostolic responsibility needing to give a very good example on a matter of such importance. And yet ...
Our Shipmate Eutychus' experience (and I know personally of at least one other similar experience) would indicate that when it comes to maintaining hierarchical authority and control, the smack of firm government appeared to be the order of the day. With the emphasis on "smack".
Whereas a real servant-hearted approach will go many, many extra miles first, to seek resolution.
There's an interesting quote from a recent publication (it gets an airing in the Wiki article) which suggests that others have also spotted this "smacking" tendency. Here you go.
quote:
"There is a toughness about this style of leadership that is unlikely to be distracted by opposition. The disadvantage is that this style of leadership can leave some individuals hurt and marginalised for what is seen by the leadership as the overall benefit to the organisation."
[Source: Francis, Leslie J., Gubb, Sean and Robbins, Mandy (2009). "Psychological type profile of Lead Elders within the Newfrontiers network of churches in the United Kingdom", Journal of Beliefs & Values]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
What an excellent quote. I wonder who could have dug it up and added it to the Wikipedia article? ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
[ 10. January 2012, 11:24: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ho ho ...
Yes, Barnabas. I think thee and me are on similar pages most of the time ...
Darn it! There's some irritating unity creeping in here ... better do something non-conformist to hack Barnabas off ...
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Gamaliel - I would if I could (it's in my computer ready) but YOUR MAILBOX IS FULL, I am told!
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
"There is a toughness about this style of leadership that is unlikely to be distracted by opposition. The disadvantage is that this style of leadership can leave some individuals hurt and marginalised for what is seen by the leadership as the overall benefit to the organisation."
[Source: Francis, Leslie J., Gubb, Sean and Robbins, Mandy (2009). "Psychological type profile of Lead Elders within the Newfrontiers network of churches in the United Kingdom", Journal of Beliefs & Values]
This sort of leadership can be found in organisations which have nothing to do with Christianity. To what extent has "ecclesiology" been formatted - however unwittingly - to justify the modus operandi of leadership as performed by certain personality types?
For what it's worth, some early leaders dropped out of Restorationism as it developed - were they people of a different "type" I wonder? If so, it was to the movement's loss.
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
B T: quote:
For what it's worth, some early leaders dropped out of Restorationism as it developed - were they people of a different "type" I wonder? If so, it was to the movement's loss.
Couldn't agree more. But, as I'm sure you realise, the number of groups that will welcome diversity in this way are few and far between.
I do think the personality issue is so important and wish I knew more and could do some detailed research.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
To what extent has "ecclesiology" been formatted - however unwittingly - to justify the modus operandi of leadership as performed by certain personality types?
I wouldn't say it was originally formatted that way, though I suspect that it's 'success' has caused it's continuation. Especially because of the influence of church growth movements on restorationists.
And at the risk of contradicting Gamaliel, I'd say it's not so much to do with adoption of the values in the 'professions' but more down to a certain technocratic form of managerialism.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
"There is a toughness about this style of leadership that is unlikely to be distracted by opposition. The disadvantage is that this style of leadership can leave some individuals hurt and marginalised for what is seen by the leadership as the overall benefit to the organisation."
[Source: Francis, Leslie J., Gubb, Sean and Robbins, Mandy (2009). "Psychological type profile of Lead Elders within the Newfrontiers network of churches in the United Kingdom", Journal of Beliefs & Values
It would be nice to see what Francis, Gubb and Robbins article says about Leaders in NFI, but I'm not going to pay £23 to download it!
[ 10. January 2012, 15:21: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Ouch. It used to be online for free!
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Darn it! There's some irritating unity creeping in here ... better do something non-conformist to hack Barnabas off ...
That's the way, sunshine. And just to annoy you, I'll agree with your attempt to hack me off (whatever it is) as a good example of creative tension at work.
But that's not a guarantee!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Ouch. It used to be online for free!
Which I now see I made the most of at the time. PM me with an e-mail address if you're interested!
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I was also seen as a 'man of the Word' and scriptural knowledge was valued highly - except when it led you to question what was going on ( ).
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You, too? Might have guessed! My life teaches me that such "man of the Word" flattery is best avoided.
Oh Good .......
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JJ
SDG
blog
Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
My wife and I know of several people damaged by NF. There are likely many across the country. It does seem to attract dominating white male leaders who think servant leadership is about them leading and you serving.
My wife and I were watching Father Ted re-runs and both identified the same leader in NF as a likely candidate for a 'kicking Bishop Brennan up the arse' photo dare !
Perhaps its just as well I left when I did ...
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
My wife and I know of several people damaged by NF. There are likely many across the country. It does seem to attract dominating white male leaders who think servant leadership is about them leading and you serving.
My wife and I were watching Father Ted re-runs and both identified the same leader in NF as a likely candidate for a 'kicking Bishop Brennan up the arse' photo dare !
Perhaps its just as well I left when I did ...
Your point about NF leaders being white and male is a valid one, a concern I share too.
I also know people who have left NF under less than happy circumstances but don't agree this is any less or any more than in other church circles.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sorry ... the PM box is clear now, Mark Wuntoo.
I'm still trying to think of a way to hack Barnabas off. He's so nice. It's soooooo tempting ...
Now, what kind of personality type is that?
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Now, what kind of personality type is that?
Nonconforming nonconformist. Or in Myers Briggs snake-oil speak, EPNS.
[ 10. January 2012, 21:06: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Now, what kind of personality type is that?
Nonconforming nonconformist. Or in Myers Briggs snake-oil speak, EPNS.
Doesn't that make you a conformist?
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'
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Hopefully, to the likeness of Christ, at least in some small measure. Not much given to other conformist aims.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Originally posted by Ramarius:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Now, what kind of personality type is that?
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Nonconforming nonconformist. Or in Myers Briggs snake-oil speak, EPNS.
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Doesn't that make you a conformist?
I thought it made you silver plated.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Well, nickel silver, to be precise.
[ 11. January 2012, 07:04: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Rich Clifford
Apprentice
# 16881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't see the specifics of the restorationist 'vision' to be very much in evidence these days, but I do see echoes of it - generally in anything that's over-egged (sorry Eutychus ) or more full of a sense of its own significance than it ought ...
I've often felt that convert Orthodoxy (as opposed to cradle Orthodoxy) is a form of parallel universe restorationism in reverse ...
@Tomsk ... it's too early to say whether there's been any major restoration of charismatic gifts, healings and all? Really? These things have been allegedly going on for over a century now - how much longer do we need before forming an opinion?
My own? These things can happen.
Are they happening more regularly than heretofore?
I doubt it.
But their exponents claim they are and they often aren't in the best position to judge for reasons I've outlined in the 'discernment' thread.
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Rich Clifford
Apprentice
# 16881
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Posted
Sorry, I'm new to this and pressed the wrong button. Maybe some of the people on this discussion may be interested to know that there was a group in America in the 1970s led by ex-Campus Crusaders called the 'New Covenant Apostolic Order.' They formed house churches and the original leaders called themselves apostles. They wanted to recapture the life of the early church and had loose connections with Charles Simpson and Bob Mumford. In their early days they were into 'heavy shepherding' (judging by their magazine articles and the criticisms of outsiders). By the early '80s they had established a relationship with a number of Eastern Orthodox priests and theologians and by the mid '80s these 'house churches' joined the Antiochian Orthodox Church. There were about 2000 who converted.
I don't think that something on that scale would happen in the UK...but you never know!
I was intrigued to read Bryn Jones' take on tradition in the last book that he wrote (The Radical Church). On page 44 he makes a distinction between Tradition with a capital T which includes things like "prayer for the sick, laying on of hands, anointing with oil, the Eucharist, and baptism" and tradtions (lower case) "for example, various expressive ways of worship, dancing, clapping, etc." Tradition should always be handed on from one generation to another but traditions should not be re-examined and if need be discarded. Not quite Orthodox but pretty darn close! When did Bryn Jones start calling 'the covenant meal' the Eucharist?! Where would this all have ended if he had lived a little longer..?
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Rich Clifford
Apprentice
# 16881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Clifford:
but traditions should not be re-examined and if need be discarded.
That should be "traditions should be re-examined and if need be discarded."
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irish_lord99
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# 16250
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Posted
@ Rich
Yeah, there's a book on their journey called "Becoming Orthodox" by Peter E. Gillquist (sp?)
An interesting read, but I'm not sure how restorationists would ever get from point A to point 'O' as did Gillquist and his friends. Two very different backgrounds there.
I was a part of Crusade, and as wacky as they were, they were no where near as bad* as the restorationists I've been in contact with.
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*I've been in contact with some good restorationists too, but the majority of my experience was with an R1 group that was definitly off the deep end with their practice, attitude, and theology.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Welcome, Rich Clifford, and thanks for joining in the debate!
One of our friends from university made the same journey from a Pioneer church, via Icthcus, the URC and work as a Campus Crusade for Christ staffer into Orthodoxy (and lent us a book recounting the experiences of the group you mention by way of an explanation). She is now married to a Russian Orthodox priest in Russia.
Pokrov, who I haven't seen around here for a while, was a full-time NF elder before becoming Orthodox, too. So yes, it does happen.
I think Orthodoxy appeals to some people from a charismatic background who found the restorationist experience lacking in depth.
[x-post with IrishLord... Campus Crusade could be a whole other thread!! I have a nest of them just down the road here]
[ 11. January 2012, 20:20: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
Re-reading my post, I realize I should have said "I don't see how the restorationist movement could get from point A to point 'O'"
I knew a little of Pokrov's transition, so I know it's possible for individuals within the movement, but I would be very (pleasantly) surprised if the movement as a whole brought itself under the authority of the Orthodox or Catholic church.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Just to say, I've skimmed through this thread which is a whole new world to me. Maybe I'm missing some undertones, but the debate and disagreements seem conducted with far more mutual respect than those in catholic and liberal circles.
PS I have attended the late Father Michael Harper presiding at the Divine Liturgy in English a number of times. You could have knocked me down with a liturgical fan when I found out he'd been a curate at All Souls' Langham Place.
[ 11. January 2012, 21:04: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I can certainly see how Orthodoxy (or Roman Catholicism) could appeal to individual restorationists - and not simply on the issue of wanting more 'depth'. I'm convinced that there are parallels and echoes in terms of the ecclesiology. Substitute Bishops for 'apostles' and the parallels get even closer.
And both Orthodoxy and the RCs have exclusive notions of what constitutes the 'One True Church' etc. I'm not saying that the restorationists thought they were the only game in town - they didn't - but they did think that, sooner or later, everyone else should adopt their modus operandi.
The mileage varied.
As for Bryn Jones - well, he was certainly aware of the older Big T Traditions and had a lot of respect for individual Roman Catholics - I'm not sure whether he had any first hand contact with the Orthodox, though. He also came close to a Universalist position towards the end of his life - if not a fully Universalist one.
The guy mellowed a lot in his later years. I had a bit of a run in with him about 16 years ago but the last time I spoke to him - perhaps two years later (?) it was all sweetness and light and there was a genuine warmth and - dare I say - even affection on both sides of the encounter. I never knew him that well, but I'm still pleased that my last dealings with him were warm and friendly.
I don't think Bryn would have moved onto a Fr Michael Harper type position had he lived ... I certainly don't see any of those on what remains or has morphed from the restorationist scene doing so either.
I suspect that he Gilquist, Campus Crusade thing was a bit of a one-off ... although it did send some echoes and minor tremors through charismatic evangelicalism at the time. It may not have been a complete one-off mind - Andrew Walker in one of his books describes a period at Oral Roberts University where they were experimenting with processions, smells and Orthodox regalia. I've heard from black Pentecostal guys in the US that there was a bit of a fad a few years ago where some of their leaders and 'bishops' started robing up and echoing 'High Church' practice - but without the underlying sacramental theology to support it.
Anyone can put on a robe and a funny hat and claim to be a bishop. Just as anyone can put on a suit and tie and claim to be an apostle.
That's got to be more to both than that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@venbede -
I'm struck by the mutual respect thing in comparison with catholic and liberal circles. As I've not moved in either - other than as an occasional observer - I can't comment on the way debates are conducted there. I would imagine that there can be some bitchiness.
On the whole, I would suggest that there was a lot of mutual respect among the leaders of the various new-church streams ... where the problems started it was generally the people in more subordinate positions who suffered. There's a difference between agreeing to disagree with some you regard as being on a peer level - a fellow apostle leading another team - and someone you regard as a subordinate - a pastor, elder, housegroup leader etc.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
I thought I'd dig a little and see what newfrontiers is about.
New Frontiers Together Website
They have a slot on their web site called ''restoring the church''. The title seems a bit presumptuous on one level, surely that's Christ's role but I'd expect they'd cite Ephesians 4 which in fact they do.
Certainly there is an element within many charismatic churches of a disciplined harder edge; anyone remember ''heavy shepherding''? But like I've said my view is that charismatic churches have gone a bit fuzzy around the edges, call it the Rob Bell effect, but the emerging church and post modern thought IS having an effect.
Interesting times.
Saul
[long URLs muck up the page format]
[ 13. January 2012, 08:50: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What an excellent quote. I wonder who could have dug it up and added it to the Wikipedia article?
Just saw this: you're lucky it's still there! My addition to TV's wiki page didn't last long, even though I had a cited a source. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I thought I'd dig a little and see what newfrontiers is about.
New Frontiers Together Website
They have a slot on their web site called ''restoring the church''. The title seems a bit presumptuous on one level, surely that's Christ's role but I'd expect they'd cite Ephesians 4 which in fact they do.
Certainly there is an element within many charismatic churches of a disciplined harder edge; anyone remember ''heavy shepherding''? But like I've said my view is that charismatic churches have gone a bit fuzzy around the edges, call it the Rob Bell effect, but the emerging church and post modern thought IS having an effect.
Interesting times.
Saul
That seems to make it very clear that they have no time for old denominations, that they are all about extending NFI.
And this : God's ultimate purpose is that the church should become a 'mature man' (Eph. 4:13) would be hilarious if it was not so sad: reminds me of many songs (not exclusive to new churches) in which women are expected to be thankful for being sons of GOD. Ughhhhh.
[edited quoted long URL]
[ 13. January 2012, 08:51: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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