|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: 'New church' Restorationism - then and now
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I find end times speculations in Restorationist circles today to be less pronounced than what was going on in the church in the 80s heydey of dispensationalism, and perhaps the end times speculation that does occur is a residual of that 80s current rather than being a characteristic of the movement per se.
I think you're right, but that Gamaliel is right too (despite all that egg) in saying that what prevailed was the sense of impetus, perhaps still today. The "hastening" translated into a sense of a lot of pressure and being in a tremendous hurry to get things done.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Indeed, Chris.
For my money, the late Douglas McBain was good on this in his book about the charismatic renewal within Baptist circles, 'Fire Over The Waters.'
He wasn't original in his conclusions but he did demonstrate how successive fads weakened what he felt to be the strengths of the movement.
The sense of impetus and being in a hurry - the activism aspect - isn't exclusively restorationist, of course. You can see it in evangelicalism per se - indeed 'activism' is one of Berridge's '4 Points' if I remember rightly.
At the risk of offending Eutychus once more, it's the level of yoke that is applied that makes the difference.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
At the risk of offending Eutychus once more, it's the level of yoke that is applied that makes the difference.
I can't work out whether that was solely a chance to make another egg joke and only inadvertently profound, or actually deliberately profound...
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Groan ...
That's eggsactly not the point I was making, Eutychus, you must be yoking. If this continues I shell have to ask you to step outside where I'll lay one on you ...
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Shame. I thought it was a good one. All that activism is laying too heavy a yoke on people. Not the "unforced rhythms of grace", as the Message translation has it in Matthew 11.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
'The Message' ... Pah!
I'm wondering whether this thread has run its course ... although there is still the issue of how the 'prophets' were meant to contribute to things under the 'restored' Ephesians 4:11 model.
Is that something we could explore?
I've not heard much about 'prophets' and 'the prophetic' for a while now ... other than what passes for wee little 'words' in Anglican New Wine-influenced circles (don't get me started on that ... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ).
Andrew Walker (sounds like he's the proof-text authority here) observed that the role of the prophet in restorationist circles wasn't at all clear and tended to be a form of 'suffragen' apostle.
Even in my restorationist days we used to joke that the 'prophet' was the regularly visiting preacher that none of us could really quite understand. Not because they were difficult, but because they were pretty incoherent!
Any thoughts on that one?
While we're at it, our NF friends might like to update us on how these things work in those quarters. I might be wrong, but I never got the impression that NFI put as much emphasis on the role as Harvestime/Covenant Ministries did (even if they never actually defined what that role should be).
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
|
Posted
The problem with corporate sanctification is that it tends to identify sins that aren't listed in the Bible, and ignore 'lording it over the flock' and exploiting fellow believers for financial gain.
If the corporate structure is corrupt, but seen as God given, its mighty difficult to reform it from within.
At my former NF church prophets were 'filtered' by the leadership before they could speak. If the filter is broken, the message may be lost. I wonder how they would react if they got a message that criticised the structure. In their way of thinking this would be impossible.
Most revivals happen through individuals that have been rejected by established denominations. Historically God doesn't seem to have needed a perfected church institution to reach the lost.
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
|
Posted
I was under the impression that Restorationists (mainly) saw the end of the age as the ongoing and massive revival and the church was brought to a perfect or almost perfect state? It was pretty much heaven on earth - then Christ would return for this amazing bride?
So it was a deviation from the classic pre millennial approach that many took pre Restorationism.
Plus, this church rampant approach aided their theology for a mega revival didn't it? Of course when it didn't come the platform party all had collective egg on their faces.
In my view this theology of the end times (faulty as it was) contributed to the 'end' of classic Restorationist churches here in the UK. Peoiple were all hyped up and told there would be a massive big revival and it didn't happen.
Saul
--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus
Revivalism has space for 'awakening' of the church to take place within previously moribund churches (followed by an influx of lots of new christians). Hard-core restorationism thinks that this 'awakening' can take place only inasmuch as the ecclesiology of the movement is recognised by others.
A question. If one looks at the great revivals that people often refer to, the Awakening of the C18, the Great Welsh Revival, the one in the Outer Hebrides which seems to have been the most recent one, or any of the mediaeval ones, which being Catholic, a lot of revival experts won't recognise, is there any historical evidence that restorationism is the prerequisite for a revival, rather than the awakening of moribund Laodiceans? There's no great evidence I know of that truly purified churches in the C17 produced revivals that affected them alone.
Or do restorationists regard that as merely a historical not a theological question and so irrelevant?
I'm not knowledgeable about restorationism and don't know much about its chronology. However, I encountered a group whose leader was advocating how it was essential to recreate the church after the New Testament pattern, with a fivefold ministry, and led by a person who saw himself as a new apostle, as early as the winter of 1971/2. At that point, they would have been going since about 1968. That sounds a bit earlier than most of the other posts seem to assume.
I recently googled the name of the man who ran it, and got no proper result. So I don't know what happened to them after that, whether he died, or whether they influenced more well known names since or not.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
|
Posted
@Gamaliel. Prophets might be worth a thread of their own. But a question for you on CM - what was their view of the Sovreignty of God? Was it "God has settled everything by his will" or more God works in history knowing everything that's going to happen?"
R
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I'm not knowledgeable about restorationism and don't know much about its chronology. However, I encountered a group whose leader was advocating how it was essential to recreate the church after the New Testament pattern, with a fivefold ministry, and led by a person who saw himself as a new apostle, as early as the winter of 1971/2. At that point, they would have been going since about 1968. That sounds a bit earlier than most of the other posts seem to assume.
According to Andrew Walker, Arthur Wallis covenanted together in 1971 with six other charismatic leaders in a bid to reunite the church under a restoration of what they believed to be a New Testament pattern church life. These were Bryn Jones, Peter Lyne, David Mansell, John Noble, Graham Perrins and Hugh Thompson - known as the "Magnificent Seven". However Wallis himself had been speaking in these terms since at least 1958. I'm pretty sure others had been too - such as Pastor North, George Tarleton and Maurice Smith.
Myself, I saw the early evolution of the Southampton grouping under Tony Morton come into existence through a group at the University CU in around 1973-74. They had been strongly influenced by the Capel Bible Weeks in the summers of 1972 and 73, but I can't tell you who the speakers were.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Ok ... more questions ...
@Saul - I think there was a form of revivalism that lay outside of restorationism that ALSO led to disillusionment when it 'didn't happen' - the notorious Wimber 'prophecy' about revival starting in the London Docklands at a particular conference is a case in point. Eventually he had the good grace to admit he'd got it wrong.
Within restorationism, though, the stakes were probably higher as there was a stronger eschatological aspect. Hence the disillusionment you cite.
On the issue of restorationist type theology going back to around 1968 at least ... well, yes. It could have been David Lillie or one of the other guys around at that time. Perhaps Hugh Thompson or someone like that. I suspect Arthur Wallis's restorationist thinking was pretty developed by the late 1960s/early 1970s too.
In 1974 three fellowships in Bradford - an independent pentecostal one led by Bryn Jones, a Brethren assembly that had become charismatic and a Wally North ('North Circular') fellowship with a Holiness flavour led by Peter Parris.
Gerald Coates and a small band of followers were probably meeting independently around that time too - if not earlier.
But 1974 was about the time that restorationist flavoured fellowships began to emerge in more significant numbers.
@Ramarius - I'm not sure of the reasoning/relevance behind the 'sovereignty' issue ... but by and large Harvestime/Covenant Ministries was more Arminian than New Frontiers - largely because most of the main guys were from Pentecostal or Brethren/'general' Baptist backgrounds.
That's not to say that there weren't Calvinists involved. I was pretty Calvinist at one time (partly, I suspect, as a reaction against some of the more Arminian revivalist aspects I felt uncomfortable with - the altar calls and so on).
Andrew Walker has said some complimentary things about New Frontiers - particularly the way it has combined the organisational with the charismatic, as it were. But he's also said that it can combine extreme Calvinism with extreme charismaticism ... a heady and rather toxic mix I would have thought.
Certainly something that would be best imbibed (if at all) in small doses.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Andrew Walker has said some complimentary things about New Frontiers - particularly the way it has combined the organisational with the charismatic, as it were. But he's also said that it can combine extreme Calvinism with extreme charismaticism ... a heady and rather toxic mix I would have thought.
In fairness, I've not heard much (any) extreme Calvinism from NFI circles, and I know of elders/pastors in NFI who don't hold to Calvinistic views.
I don't think therefore that Calvinism vs whatever is a good taxonomy to apply to Restorationist groups.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
@Enoch
I attended a very good conference back in 2000 which looked at revival from historical, theological and sociological perspectives. I can PM you more details if you wish.
I agree with you on the Catholic 'revivals' such as those that took place in 13th century Italy - although I'm not sure the term is that applicable - it's a bit of an anachronism in that context.
The restorationists warmed to anything 'enthusiastic' - so the warmer and more fervent aspects of medieval Catholicism did appeal to them and they would certainly have considered such things as legitimate and inline with what they were about.
Equally, though, they also had a tendency to acclaim heretical movements such as the Cathars as some kind of revivalist or restorationist movement - purely on the grounds that it had been separatist from the Establish Church of that time.
You can find similar things in some Brethren and Baptist treatments of medieval Christianity. Anything that looks dissident must be a good thing. My enemies enemy is my friend.
As for the 'purified' churches of the 17th century ... since when have their EVER been ANY purified churches? If we succeeded in creating a purified church then you or I would have to leave it because we weren't pure enough ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I'm all for 'intentional' rather than purely cultural expressions of Christianity (but then, is anything ever 'purely' anything?) but that doesn't necessarily imply revivalism or 'enthusiasm' let alone restorationism.
Which is one of the reasons why I'd suggest that the whole thing was something of a chimera on several counts.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Chris - note that Walker said 'can'.
It all depends on where you stand, of course.
Walker came from an Elim Pentecostal background and is now Russian Orthodox - so NFI is going to look pretty Calvinistic to him.
If you were a staunch Presbyterian of some kind then NFI would start to look a little less Calvinistic.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
|
Posted
Here is an insider view of the UK restoration movement by an ex player called David Matthew.
He also explains something of the groups eschatological leanings. Worth a read.
http://www.deemat.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/restorationhist.html
Saul the Apostle
--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Walker came from an Elim Pentecostal background and is now Russian Orthodox - so NFI is going to look pretty Calvinistic to him.
I think for a particular vintage of Pentecostals, Calvinism wasn't really on the radar as far as being a doctrine that was ever considered - or it was considered little better than heresy.
quote:
Also, to be fair to them, they could have opted for the easier route of standard Pentecostal pulpiteering ... any one of these guys could have had an acclaimed platform ministry in traditional Pentecostal style leading rallies and healing meetings and so on. OK, so they imported that style into what they built as an alternative but they did roll their sleeves up and set-to trying to develop what they saw as a more New Testament way of doing things.
Well, during the inception of these movements, the Pentecostal denominations had been around for a while, and so really the choice was between being yet another independent church, or to have some kind of distinctive that would actually set you apart from everything else that was going around - and the fringes of Pentecostalism were starting to attract wackier elements.
So I don't think it was such a hard choice to start a new movement. In fact, if you were of a more forceful, alpha type of personality, and believed that God had spoken to you, starting a new movement was probably exactly what you would do.
quote:
Another aspect that Walker highlighted was the working-class 'nous' of traditional Pentecostalism - which shielded it from some of the whackier flowerings of charismatic spirituality. There was a certain down-home common sense about a lot of what these guys did, and it was by no means always vatic and airy fairy
I have mixed feelings on this; I've seen it work, I have also seen the fact that it does work occasionally lead to spiritual bandwagoning when something isn't checked (and the fact that it's laid out with an East-End/Yorkshire/Glaswegian accent makes it sound more plausible).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Walker came from an Elim Pentecostal background and is now Russian Orthodox.
I think (but I'm not 100% sure) that Walker was a Welsh Apostolic. The Elim folk were "the other lot" in his town! - he writes of being "baptised in the Spirit" at one of their conventions, and his own church leaders not being quite sure if it really counted or not.
More generally: I think there was a fundamental difference between "old" Pentecostalism (and the renewal movement) and Restorationism. Pentecostalism indeed talked of the restoration of the Spirit's gifts to the Church, but never claimed to be the "one true Church". Restorationism was much bolder: it claimed that it was the only Church which God would be bothered with, as he had given up on the other denominations.
I know that's a bit black-and-white - and I'm sure it's not what many rank-and-file members believed. But Wallis certainly did, and quite possibly some other "apostles".
[ 18. January 2012, 20:03: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
No, Baptist Trainfan, his father was an Elim minister. My brother-in-law's mother used to babysit for them - Walker and his sister - when their parents went out to meetings and so on. She was Elim at that time but later joined the AoG (and later on, Covenant Ministries).
He does describe his visit to the Apostolic convention and his 'baptism in the Spirit' but it was a visit - he was never a member. The Elim elders wanted to check it out ...
On the whole, the Elim guys were rather more cautious and less full-on pentecostally than the Apostolics and the AoG. They didn't insist on speaking in tongues as THE sign for the 'baptism in the Spirit' for instance.
My brother-in-law's father used to tell a story of how the 'Elim elders' were sat disapprovingly on a row towards the back when the controversial A A Allen preached at Cardiff's Sophia Gardens - and, allegedly, miracles took place with women dancing down the aisles wheeling their wheelchairs before them. Allen was very odd and ended up dead from alcoholism in a run down motel somewhere in the US.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
@Saul - I like David Matthew and his take on these things is warm-hearted, balanced and pretty much chimes with my memories of it all ... although I'm not sure I'd reach the same conclusions as he does - that what we were seeing were early jet-engine experiments that were messy but necessary for what is yet to come ...
It's interesting that his article focuses on the apostolic side of things - what about the role of the 'prophet' I ask myself?
Has anyone got any insights into what all that was about? And whether this has continued in however restorationism continues today?
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
No, Baptist Trainfan, his father was an Elim minister. My brother-in-law's mother used to babysit for them - Walker and his sister - when their parents went out to meetings and so on. ...
He does describe his visit to the Apostolic convention and his 'baptism in the Spirit' but it was a visit - he was never a member. The Elim elders wanted to check it out ...
Ah, I got it the wrong way round then!!
[ 18. January 2012, 21:20: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Here is an insider view of the UK restoration movement by an ex player called David Matthew.
He also explains something of the groups eschatological leanings. Worth a read.
Another great find!
quote:
Terry Virgo has commented that, in his view, the restoration of apostles is the most important and distinctive feature of Restorationism.
This may go some way to explaining why I keep going on about this aspect...
quote:
Alan Vincent (...) likens the rediscovery of apostolic ministry to the invention of the jet engine. The early jet prototypes were flawed; there were explosions and crashes. But the underlying principle was sound, and second-generation jet engines, modified in the light of previous mistakes, proved their worth, to give us what is an essential means of propulsion in today’s world. So it is, Vincent maintains, with apostles.
Don't tell me... we're on the verge of a major breakthrough!!! ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
Yes, revival is just around the corner (at which point pigs will finally learn the art of flight).
[ 18. January 2012, 21:32: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
|
Posted
David Matthew said: quote:
Their (restorationist)eschatology, too, came under scrutiny and the increasing trend was to reject the premillennialism on which most of them, including myself, had been raised, in favour of a what I could best describe as amillennialism with postmillennialist leanings. Certainly they believed that the new breed of local church that they were pioneering across the UK would be at least one factor in triggering a revival that would spread around the world and bring a substantially new order of gospel light, justice and joy prior to Christ’s return
I think it is this eschatology and expectation of total revival which sets them apart; not a new POV in church circles, but allied to the other factors it meant that restorationists (please do excuse the expression not meant in bad taste) were the SS of the charismatic movement IMHO.
Saul
--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Poor old David Matthew. I hope he forgives me for saying so, but whilst he's relinquished/moved on from some aspects of restorationism he's still a restorationist at heart and can't let go of the underlying impetus/expectation that sooner or later we'll get everything right, everything in line and that'll trigger a major advance.
I don't think he's into the imminent revival thing, far from it. But he does believe in aligning things with what he sees as the biblical pattern and norm - which, in his view includes the apostolic model.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
|
Posted
Would it be to bold to argue that with the decline of classic British restorationism that the charismatic movement has not recovered its early shine?
I genuinely don't know the answer to this one.
I know about Walker's assertion that once it went mainline with Spring Harvest it was a dead horse etc. but was it on a terminal trajectory anyway (that is restorationism itself and more generally the charismatic movement as a whole)?
Saul
--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
I know about Walker's assertion that once it went mainline with Spring Harvest it was a dead horse etc. but was it on a terminal trajectory anyway (that is restorationism itself and more generally the charismatic movement as a whole)?
[/QB]
Well, the 'problem' is that charismaticism went mainstream - at least stylistically. So the only way to keep it from 'declining' would be to artificially create distinctives.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Clifford
Apprentice
# 16881
|
Posted
I'm really enjoying the discussion and am sorry I don't have time to join in with more comments. I wonder if there is anyone out there who could give us a take on how things are in Pioneer, Salt & Light, Graham Perins' church in Cardiff, etc. etc. They were/are 'restorationist' but with a different flavour to NF and Covenant Ministries. Also what about Peter Wagner's 'New Apostolic Reformation'? What is it? Is it restorationist and does it have a following in the UK?
Posts: 7 | Registered: Jan 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Saul, you write as if restorationism was the only bad penny and that once removed from the scene then the charismatic landscape would regain its lustre ...
(I've mixed metaphors there)
The fact is, that in SOME respects, SOME aspects of restorationism were healthier than what was going on in some quarters - as I've said upthread, at least they didn't get into whacky teachings on deliverance and inner-healing as some others did - charismatic Anglicans included.
Charismatic and enthusiastic movements wax and wane. 'Twas ever thus. The Quakers went from being an enthusiastic and pietistic movement to being a rather quietist one but with a radical social and 'peace' agenda. I suspect similar tendencies may emerge from parts of the charismatic scene.
Otherwise, it'll be business as usual, fads followed by further fads ...
@Rich Clifford ... 'The New Apostolic' scene is similar to restorationism only with a more right-wing agenda - it's very much a US thing. Bethel are part of it. There are similarities but the UK version wasn't as redneck.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Sorry Saul, I misread your post ...
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
I think the charismatic scene in the UK looks pretty much as anything would look after 40 years (or 100 years in the case of the older Pentecostal groups).
It's always been a curate's egg and remains so. Just like anything else.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sorry Saul, I misread your post ...
I think the charismatic scene in the UK looks pretty much as anything would look after 40 years (or 100 years in the case of the older Pentecostal groups).
It's always been a curate's egg and remains so. Just like anything else.
Gamaliel,
yes you are right in this. To be honest you could probably say it was tied into the study of any organisation (it's rise and fall) to an extent. I am sure there is a graph that portrays the rise and developemtn and then fall of an organisation Twas ever thus.
I suppose the only unique factor in this matter, is reflected in that bane of a statement, we hear so often: ''It is God's will'', in church circles, it was ''God's will'' according to restorationists that the denominations would pass the baton on to the ''restored bride of Christ''.
What a difference half a century or so makes eh?
As my atheist friend tells me, figures for C of E attendance are down and I suspect church attendance generally is down also? We are a long way from the restored bride of Christ methinks.
Saul
[ 20. January 2012, 05:13: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]
--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
|
Posted
Actually I heard a piece on the radio recently stating that UK church attendance was on the up.
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
But that's just the CofE, Saul. Arminian's comment was about attendance at churches of all flavours...
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
But that's just the CofE, Saul. Arminian's comment was about attendance at churches of all flavours...
Anybody got a more generic set of stats then?
I hope I'm wrong and Arminian is right!
Saul
--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
The decline/upturn thing has been discussed here on these boards before.
I think the figures show that there has been some stablisation and indeed some growth in London - but the picture is mixed elsewhere.
Overall, church attendance in the UK has been declining since the 1850s at least - but with the occasional plateauing/stablising out.
I suspect we're seeing something of the later at the moment, particularly in the Metropolis - largely down to the comparatively high level of church engagement within certain migrant communities and the growth of some of the black-led and African churches.
Cathedral attendance has grown, but I suspect at the expense of some local parish churches.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Overall, church attendance in the UK has been declining since the 1850s at least - but with the occasional plateauing/stablising out.
Well according to Callum Brown it peaked in the 1950s and he has the figures to demonstrate it.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
|
Posted
Most informed Ship discussion so far on church numbers is here
--------------------
'
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
No that thread is about current trends, nobody is disputing current decline but when did it start.
Brown's argument is
1)1850-1914 the drop away from the established, people going to non-conformists with moving to cities. There is a worry about the unchurched in the cities. This is more imagined than real.
2)1914-1940 a drop that was substantial starting with the first world war and ending with the second.
3)1940-1960 a return to figures of around 1910 for church attendance. Brown has the figures but anecdotal evidence accords with this.
The drop therefore seems to have started in the 1960s.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Clifford:
Pioneer, Salt & Light, Graham Perins' church in Cardiff, etc. etc. They were/are 'restorationist' but with a different flavour to NF and Covenant Ministries. Also what about Peter Wagner's 'New Apostolic Reformation'? What is it? Is it restorationist and does it have a following in the UK?
Real life has been getting in the way for me for the past few days, and is likely to again for a while now, but these are interesting questions, as is Gamaliel's on the role of prophets.
I used to have some contact with Salt & Light but none directly of late. I was singularly impressed by the worship tapes that came out of Graham Perrins' church which got sent to us by a charismatic mission support ministry. Good musicians, original songs and actually singable by a congregation - we still sing one I translated from time to time.
I think the big difference with the NAR is that they are more into affiliating big-name ministries rather than establishing a denomination or movement. Bethel's game plan seems to be counting any church that so much as e-mails its website as part of its "Global Legacy" network, so it can then invite members to conferences and do merchandising. I don't think they or the rest of the NAR are interested in heading up church planting or apostolic oversight of churches. They are more of an attempt at a charismatic Sanhedrin.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think the big difference with the NAR is that they are more into affiliating big-name ministries rather than establishing a denomination or movement. Bethel's game plan seems to be counting any church that so much as e-mails its website as part of its "Global Legacy" network, so it can then invite members to conferences and do merchandising. I don't think they or the rest of the NAR are interested in heading up church planting or apostolic oversight of churches. They are more of an attempt at a charismatic Sanhedrin.
Hmm. The NAR are very much half Sanhedrin and half something entirely different. Bethel resembles a franchise in many ways and I wonder to what extent their strategy is modelled on that of Willow Creek.
If I look in the pages of the most recent NFI magazines it appears that they too are no stranger to the franchise model, with numerous 'apostolic spheres' being recognised in different countries something which seems to assume prime importance [for instance I wonder to what extent say the Turkey NFI and the UK NFI are on the same page doctrinally].
Perhaps this points to the end stage of restorationism. At the end of the day, it's very hard to scale an organisation that has a single person/group of people at the top, especially if you are also wedded to informality. A looser network approach is easier, at the risk of easily losing its distinctives.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Well, I've already quoted the example of McDonald's in the mouth of an NF apostle, albeit in jest on his part. And I remember a personal conversation with Terry in which, ahead of NF devising its current logo, he talked about wanting people to be able to recognise an NF church anywhere in the world in much the same way as a Best Western hotel: same sign, same service, and so on.
Actually, this is not the first time I've thought of the franchise comparison as being quite striking. Since leaving full-time ministry I've translated quite a few franchise agreement contracts; as far as I can see the franchisee effectively signs their life away to the franchisor - though things are rarely represented as being that way at the time...
[ 20. January 2012, 21:27: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Clifford
Apprentice
# 16881
|
Posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eutychus:
I used to have some contact with Salt & Light but none directly of late. I was singularly impressed by the worship tapes that came out of Graham Perrins' church which got sent to us by a charismatic mission support ministry. Good musicians, original songs and actually singable by a congregation - we still sing one I translated from time to time.
Yes, their worship tapes were very good. The ones I had were taken from a conference they organised on eschatology. I would occasionally worship at Graham Perrins church in the early '90s. Unlike the other early 'apostles' Graham would style himself as a prophet far more than an apostle. He struck me as someone who was very open minded to others' points of view and, although maintaining good relationships with others in R2, keep his church from joining any of the other big networks. I have no idea what the church is like now. Back then it was quite 'closed shop' (eg not being able to attend a house group without first having gone through their discipleship course). I have no idea what the church is like now.
Posts: 7 | Registered: Jan 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Right - who is going to take up the 'prophet' theme - we've just heard that Graham Perrins considered himself one (rather than an apostle).
How did/does this work in practice?
Is this material for a new thread?
During my 18 years on the restorationist scene I never really understood what the role of the 'prophet' was meant to be - other than to set a theme or particular emphasis for a season or two - which would then be conveniently replaced by a further theme or emphasis - with the previous one being brushed under the carpet and forgotten about ...
There was something Stalinist about this.
If anyone's ever read Arthur Koestler's 'Darkness at Noon' there's a salutary passage on the way that the revolutionary regime backs the admiral who suggests the adoption of small submarines to defend rather than extend the revolution. Then, in the fullness of time, the emphasis shifts towards large submarines in order to pursue a more expansionist policy. The admiral is taken out and shot.
After a few years, the wind changes direction again and the idea of smaller submarines comes back. The admiral who suggested the big ones in the first place is then executed ...
Ok - this is an extreme (but not entirely unanalogous) comparison.
What WAS the role of the 'prophet' in the 'apostles and prophets' ambit and does it continue in the rump of restorationism that persists today?
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
|
Posted
It might warrant a new thread.
For myself, and probably other shipmates who have not been involved in restorationism, it might be helpful if someone could define prophecy and prophet.
For example, I heard many prophecies which were not about predicting the future but about, for instance, the health of an unspecified member ('someone here has got a bad back and God is saying to you ....'). But I also heard constant reference in one church to a prophecy that had been given (I do not know whether by a prophet or another member) that the church would grow to a certain number by a certain year. (It never happened, in spite of some adjustment from the beginning of that year to the end!).
What does a prophet do / say? I seem to remember that the prophet in this same church, who had a respected background of missionary work overseas, was more of a teacher.
I think I used to know the answers but I have forgotten! Maybe I was always confused. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
--------------------
Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Well, we used to talk about 'prophetic teaching' too ... so 'prophets' often had some kind of teaching ministry. As for what was 'prophetic' about it ... well ... it was generally teaching that was in line with the restorationist vision. The more it did that, the more 'prophetic' it was considered to be.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
old codger
Apprentice
# 14325
|
Posted
I met someone recently who has started up a Vineyard fellowship here in Peterborough in England - is that part of Restorationism ?
--------------------
Old Codger
Posts: 23 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
No - the Vineyard derives from a different source - John Wimber and the Anaheim Vineyard in California. It grew from an evangelical Quaker base and critics would claim that it is somewhat 'gnostic' in tone. It has a gentler, more laid-back approach to the charismatic dimension - although they were very into the phenomena associated with what became known as the 'Toronto Blessing.'
South Coast Kevin on these boards is a member of a Vineyard fellowship. It has been quite influential among Anglican and Baptist charismatics who couldn't stomach the harder-edged restorationist ambit.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
barrea
Shipmate
# 3211
|
Posted
Does anyone remember the guest house run by Stan and Marge in Port Isaac Cornwall.
They were very into Fellowships and used to have speakers from both R1 and R2, but when the split occurred I think that they were not allowed to have the southern lot. I could'nt understand it,it seemed all wrong to me. We spent a few happy holidays there in the 70s and it made me decide that we definately ought to get back to joining a fellowship again,althought we had been put out of the first one that we had been in, and my wife never wanted to join a house fellowship again.
The house church that we were in before was influenced by Wally North and we were excluded because we were told that we were not accepting the teaching. We were very upset about it at the time. But a few years later we met Hugh Thompson at the guest house,he was a guest speaker that week and he steered us to the fellowship that we are still members of some 34years later, althought it has changed beyong recognition and things like restoration and sheperding etc. are never spoken of.
--------------------
Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
Posts: 1050 | From: england | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
South Coast Kevin on these boards is a member of a Vineyard fellowship. It has been quite influential among Anglican and Baptist charismatics who couldn't stomach the harder-edged restorationist ambit.
Evening all... I am indeed a member of a Vineyard church but mine is not a typical Vineyard church in many ways. The big thing that the Vineyard movement* is known for is music - most Vineyard churches have lots of musicians, plenty of whom have recorded and released professional music.
*We use the word 'movement' but, personally, I'm happy for people to use the word 'denomination'. I'm not aware of a tendency within the Vineyard to decry the use of the latter word, and certainly I don't think we view ourselves as the future of the worldwide church or anything like that. If anyone knows better then do chime in!
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
