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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Vatican cracks down on liberal nuns
Mary LA
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Reading this earlier

The Vatican has appointed an American bishop to rein in the largest and most influential group of Catholic nuns in the United States, saying that an investigation found that the group had “serious doctrinal problems.”

Vatican reprimands US nuns group

This censure has ominous implications for women's religious orders working here in Africa as well as in Latin America, since many women religious have been influenced by liberation theologies and work alongside secular political groupings pushing for transformation. Risky, under-funded and demanding work nobody else is prepared to do.

I'm hoping the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (and especially the Sisters of Mercy and the Catholic Health Association and Network which lobbies for social justice) fights back and demands more autonomy from the Vatican.

[ 20. September 2012, 13:43: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark

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Evangeline
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[Votive] for all women's religious orders who often do the non-glamorous work nobody else is prepared to do.
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Ariston
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quote:
Originally posted by Mary LA:
I'm hoping the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (and especially the Sisters of Mercy and the Catholic Health Association and Network which lobbies for social justice) fights back and demands more autonomy from the Vatican.

Hehe. That's a joke, right? I would never wish such a quixotic and soul-crushing task on anyone. Certain orders of sisters are right up there with academic theologians in the category of "people the bishops really don't like," and not just because many sisters tend to do theology.

Oh, and let's not forget the stigma against the main body of the Sisters of Mercy—there's a reason the more conservative branch does penance duty as housekeepers for priests.

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Trisagion
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The note from the CDF is here and before indulging in reflexive Vatican bashing or scare mongering it would repay five minutes reading. A few highlights that leapt out at me were:
quote:
‘On a doctrinal level, this crisis is characterized by a diminuition of the fundamental Christological center and focus of religious consecration which leads, in turn, to a loss of a “constant and lively sense of the Church” among some religious.’

‘Addresses given during LCWR annual Assemblies manifest problematic statements and serious theological, even doctrinal errors.’

‘…letters the CDF received from “Leadership Teams” of various Congregations, among them LCWR Officers, protesting the Holy See’s actions regarding the question of women’s ordination and a correct pastoral approach to homosexual persons…The terms of the letters suggest that these sisters collectively take a position not in agreement with the Church’s teaching on human sexuality.’

‘…a prevalence of certain radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith…that risk distorting faith in Jesus and his loving Father who sent his Son for the salvation of the world.’

‘…while there has been a great deal of work on the part of LCWR promoting issues of social justice in harmony with the Church’s social doctrine, it is silent on the right to life from conception to natural death…’

‘Some speakers claim that dissent from the doctrine of the Church is justified as an exercise of the prophetic office. But this is based upon a mistaken understanding of the dynamic of prophecy in the Church: it justifies dissent by positiing the possibility of divergence between thge Church’s magisterium and a “legitimate” theological intuition of some of the faithful.’

‘The analysis of the General Assemblies, Presidential Addresses, and Occassional Papers reveals…a a two-fold problem. The first consists in positive error…The second…the silence and inaction of the LCWR in the face of such error.’

And, perhaps most indicative of all
quote:
The doctrinal Assessment found that many of the materials prepared by the LCWR for these purposes (Occasional Papers, Systems Thinking Handbook) do not have a sufficient doctrinal foundation. These materials recommend strategies for dialogue, for example when sisters disagree about basic matters of Catholic faith or moral practice, but it is not clear whether this dialogue is directed towards reception of Church teaching. As a case in point, the Systems Thinking Handbook presents a situation in which sisters differ over whether the Eucharist should be at the center of a special community celebration since the celebration of Mass requires an ordained priest, something which some sisters find “objectionable.” According to the Systems Thinking Handbook this difficulty is rooted in differences at the level of belief, but also in different cognitive models (the “Western mind” as opposed to an “Organic mental model”). These models, rather than the teaching of the Church, are offered as tools for the resolution of the controversy of whether or not to celebrate Mass. Thus the Systems Thinking Handbook presents a neutral model of Congregational leadership that does not give due attention to the responsibility which Superiors are called to exercise, namely, leading sisters into a greater appreciation or integration of the truth of the Catholic faith.
This isn't about the power politics of the liberal/conservative culture war nor is it (pace MaryLA) about liberation theology: it is about an organisation whose very reason for existence is about ecclesial communion seeking to maintain it by ensuring that the LCWR stops drifting away from the doctrine of the Catholic faith.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Golden Key
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AKA "rein in the girls, and watch out for cooties". And "no more Reimagining conferences".

[brick wall] [Votive]

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
AKA "rein in the girls, and watch out for cooties". And "no more Reimagining conferences".

[brick wall] [Votive]

AKA: "Catholic nuns called by Pope to believe in Catholic faith."

In other news, bear shits in wood.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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fletcher christian

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AKA let's undo everything we did in Vatican I and II and pretend we all think exactly the same on everything.

What's the big fear here?

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Mary LA
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Reading around the Internet and Catholic blogs, the response from the American Leadership Conference of Women Religious saying they are 'stunned' is echoed by many others.

Joan Chittister, Benedictine religious and author, told the National Catholic Reporter, “When you set out to reform a people, a group, who have done nothing wrong, you have to have an intention, a motivation that is not only not morally based, but actually immoral.”

If we are going to talk about ecclesiology or doctrinal aberrations, I feel it needs to be done in the context of the Catholic church currently facing its worst crisis in centuries, a paedophile crisis and scandal that has primarily to do with the priesthood. Until that crisis has been addressed and resolved, the Vatican and the US bishops lack any credibility.

Is the attack on women religious a red herring perhaps?

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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark

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Evangeline
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
The note from the CDF is here and before indulging in reflexive Vatican bashing or scare mongering it would repay five minutes reading. A few highlights that leapt out at me were:
quote:
‘On a doctrinal level, this crisis is characterized by a diminuition of the fundamental Christological center and focus of religious consecration which leads, in turn, to a loss of a “constant and lively sense of the Church” among some religious.’

‘Addresses given during LCWR annual Assemblies manifest problematic statements and serious theological, even doctrinal errors.’

‘…letters the CDF received from “Leadership Teams” of various Congregations, among them LCWR Officers, protesting the Holy See’s actions regarding the question of women’s ordination and a correct pastoral approach to homosexual persons…The terms of the letters suggest that these sisters collectively take a position not in agreement with the Church’s teaching on human sexuality.’

‘…a prevalence of certain radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith…that risk distorting faith in Jesus and his loving Father who sent his Son for the salvation of the world.’

‘…while there has been a great deal of work on the part of LCWR promoting issues of social justice in harmony with the Church’s social doctrine, it is silent on the right to life from conception to natural death…’

‘Some speakers claim that dissent from the doctrine of the Church is justified as an exercise of the prophetic office. But this is based upon a mistaken understanding of the dynamic of prophecy in the Church: it justifies dissent by positiing the possibility of divergence between thge Church’s magisterium and a “legitimate” theological intuition of some of the faithful.’

‘The analysis of the General Assemblies, Presidential Addresses, and Occassional Papers reveals…a a two-fold problem. The first consists in positive error…The second…the silence and inaction of the LCWR in the face of such error.’

And, perhaps most indicative of all
quote:
The doctrinal Assessment found that many of the materials prepared by the LCWR for these purposes (Occasional Papers, Systems Thinking Handbook) do not have a sufficient doctrinal foundation. These materials recommend strategies for dialogue, for example when sisters disagree about basic matters of Catholic faith or moral practice, but it is not clear whether this dialogue is directed towards reception of Church teaching. As a case in point, the Systems Thinking Handbook presents a situation in which sisters differ over whether the Eucharist should be at the center of a special community celebration since the celebration of Mass requires an ordained priest, something which some sisters find “objectionable.” According to the Systems Thinking Handbook this difficulty is rooted in differences at the level of belief, but also in different cognitive models (the “Western mind” as opposed to an “Organic mental model”). These models, rather than the teaching of the Church, are offered as tools for the resolution of the controversy of whether or not to celebrate Mass. Thus the Systems Thinking Handbook presents a neutral model of Congregational leadership that does not give due attention to the responsibility which Superiors are called to exercise, namely, leading sisters into a greater appreciation or integration of the truth of the Catholic faith.
This isn't about the power politics of the liberal/conservative culture war nor is it (pace MaryLA) about liberation theology: it is about an organisation whose very reason for existence is about ecclesial communion seeking to maintain it by ensuring that the LCWR stops drifting away from the doctrine of the Catholic faith.

Oh this makes me want to [Projectile] The church covering up for and tolerating priests raping children- the Vatican won't condemn this but they'll come down like a ton of bricks on women whose experiences in bringing Christ's love to those who most need it, lead them to question the hardline doctrines dreamed up by men in ivory towers.
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CL
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quote:
Originally posted by Mary LA:
Reading around the Internet and Catholic blogs, the response from the American Leadership Conference of Women Religious saying they are 'stunned' is echoed by many others.

Joan Chittister, Benedictine religious and author, told the National Catholic Reporter, “When you set out to reform a people, a group, who have done nothing wrong, you have to have an intention, a motivation that is not only not morally based, but actually immoral.”

If we are going to talk about ecclesiology or doctrinal aberrations, I feel it needs to be done in the context of the Catholic church currently facing its worst crisis in centuries, a paedophile crisis and scandal that has primarily to do with the priesthood. Until that crisis has been addressed and resolved, the Vatican and the US bishops lack any credibility.

Is the attack on women religious a red herring perhaps?

[Killing me]

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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria

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CL
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quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Oh this makes me want to [Projectile] The church covering up for and tolerating priests raping children- the Vatican won't condemn this but they'll come down like a ton of bricks on women whose experiences in bringing Christ's love to those who most need it, lead them to question the hardline doctrines dreamed up by men in ivory towers.

That is not merely a grotesque distortion, it is an out and out malicious lie.

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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria

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opaWim
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Mary LA,

You'd better brace yourself.

The mention of Joan Chittister in itself could well bring down the wrath of not a few properly Catholic shipmates. In a world where "the likes of Richard Rohr" are considered to be the liberal equivalent of ultra-orthodox nutcases like Mel Gibson, imagine what irresistible provocation Joan Chittister is.

Anyway, during most of the history of the RCC, monasteries, religious orders and congregations have been of immense value in guiding the Vatican on a more or less beneficial spiritual course. They were able to do so because they had a degree of independence from the Vatican. Historically it's only to be expected that the Vatican will, rather than listen, try to curtail this independence. It's all in the game, so to speak.

On the other hand, much as I sympathize with some of the causes Joan Chittister champions, I fear that she is not the right person to do so productively.

[ 20. April 2012, 10:30: Message edited by: opaWim ]

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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.

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Mary LA
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Thanks opaWim. As an improperly Catholic newcomer, it's good to know these things.

I do keep thinking about poor Elizabeth Johnson who bent over backwards as a theologian trying not to offend bishops and imprimatur-givers and then got zapped anyway.

--------------------
“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark

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Evangeline
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quote:
That is not merely a grotesque distortion, it is an out and out malicious lie.
Which bit? Are there not multiple instances across multiple countries of peaedophile priests being sent to different schools or dioceses? Has the vatican condemned the cover-ups and the sending of priests against whom multiple accusations of criminal behaviour to places where their history wasn't known?
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Trisagion
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opaWim, I think that's spot on. Joan Chittister (and the NCR - with the possible exxception of John Allen) are so utterly parti pris as to lack any serious credibility.

Evangeline, CL is right. As you may know, some of here work our fingers to the bone with the victims of abuse, clerical and otherwise, and do so within the hierarchical structures of the Church. I resent entirely the continual, utterly misinformed libels that underlie comments such as yours. Perhaps there ought to be a new version of Goodwin's Law of Nazi Analogies, where the first person who claims that the Catholic Church should not teach Catholic doctrine because of the scandal of abuse and the scandal of the cover up of that abuse should be deemed to have lost the argument. Perhaps we could call it Evangeline's Law.

The simple fact here is that for years and years the LCWR have encouraged and endorsed or appeared to encourage and endorse opinions and actions based on those opinions amongst its members that were contrary to or incompatible with the Catholic faith. This got to such a stage where it was straining to breaking point ecclesial communion. Many of the Bishops in the US were so concerned about it that they raised the issue time and again with the Holy See. So concerned with this were a number of religious sisters who were members of the orders whose superiors were members of LCWR that they wrote to Rome to seek some kind of action. In response to this the Holy See conducted a five year doctrinal investigation and found what they found. I have absolutely no problem with orders of nuns believing things that are incoherent or incompatible with the Catholic faith but doing so whilst still professing to be Catholic is simply dishonest and wanting to have some special pass that allows them to ignore the settle teaching of the Church and be excused the obedience to the Church's teaching that the rest of us are bound to is special pleading of the most pathetic kind.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Ronald Binge
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quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Oh this makes me want to [Projectile] The church covering up for and tolerating priests raping children- the Vatican won't condemn this but they'll come down like a ton of bricks on women whose experiences in bringing Christ's love to those who most need it, lead them to question the hardline doctrines dreamed up by men in ivory towers.

That is not merely a grotesque distortion, it is an out and out malicious lie.
So it's the libruls' fault, that the whole unholy infrastructure of Magdelene Laundries, and monsters like Brendan Smith and Sean Fortune got away with it for years?
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fletcher christian

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posted by Trisagion:

quote:

The simple fact here is that for years and years the LCWR have encouraged and endorsed or appeared to encourage and endorse opinions and actions based on those opinions amongst its members that were contrary to or incompatible with the Catholic faith. This got to such a stage where it was straining to breaking point ecclesial communion. Many of the Bishops in the US were so concerned about it that they raised the issue time and again with the Holy See. So concerned with this were a number of religious sisters who were members of the orders whose superiors were members of LCWR that they wrote to Rome to seek some kind of action. In response to this the Holy See conducted a five year doctrinal investigation and found what they found. I have absolutely no problem with orders of nuns believing things that are incoherent or incompatible with the Catholic faith but doing so whilst still professing to be Catholic is simply dishonest and wanting to have some special pass that allows them to ignore the settle teaching of the Church and be excused the obedience to the Church's teaching that the rest of us are bound to is special pleading of the most pathetic kind.

That may be so, but it is a curious way to go about it. I imagine if you wanted to push an idea underground and make it even more destructive to church unity, then this is certainly a blueprint on how to do just that. But it's not just LCWR, lets be honest. Irish clergy, orders and laity have also had their knuckles rapped recently for more or less the same 'concerns of doctrine'. I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover that this is a pattern observable throughout the Roman Catholic Church at present. I know there are concerns about unity, and yes that is hugely important, I would feel however that a process of listening, dialogue and discernment would be more beneficial and would be a more likely satisfactory outcome for all involved. The way its being dealt with at the moment makes it look like a bunch of cardinals with their backs against the wall, slapping the dissident hoardes back into their seats and telling them to be good, even though they don't understand why they are asked to be good! Smacks of an act of desperation and fear, yet - unless I read it wrongly - there isn't any great fear of a split over these issues at all.

--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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opaWim
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quote:
Originally posted by Mary LA:
Thanks opaWim. As an improperly Catholic newcomer, it's good to know these things.

I do keep thinking about poor Elizabeth Johnson who bent over backwards as a theologian trying not to offend bishops and imprimatur-givers and then got zapped anyway.

Well, RC-education's loss is Fordham's gain.

Change for the good in the RCC seldom comes without personal suffering. Jesus Christ didn't guarantee his followers a life without it. Of all people He knows best what it is to be persecuted by the prevalent church officials.
I trust that changes for the good will continue to happen, even if despite the Vatican. After which of course the remembrance of the people who moved for those changes will be painted over to make them look like obedient, docile proper RC's from the start. [Roll Eyes]

In the meantime it wouldn't hurt some people (not only on the liberal but also on the proper side) to reflect on where they possibly deviate from RC teaching, and whether they are justified before God, or even called to by God, to do so.

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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.

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Louise
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Out of interest, what do they mean by 'radical feminist themes'? What constitutes 'radical' from that point of view?

L.

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opaWim
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quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
Out of interest, what do they mean by 'radical feminist themes'? What constitutes 'radical' from that point of view?

L.

If the Vatican were to consider it possible for non-radical feminism to exist, it would probably best be described as "slightly enlightened clerical chauvinism".

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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.

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Robert Armin

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Why is Joan Chittister such a bogey woman? I've read a few of her books and found them helpful and (as far as I could tell) in line with Catholic doctrine. Have I missed an exciting one where she advocates burning cardinals, and sticking pins in Pope dolls?

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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CL
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Trisagion:

quote:

The simple fact here is that for years and years the LCWR have encouraged and endorsed or appeared to encourage and endorse opinions and actions based on those opinions amongst its members that were contrary to or incompatible with the Catholic faith. This got to such a stage where it was straining to breaking point ecclesial communion. Many of the Bishops in the US were so concerned about it that they raised the issue time and again with the Holy See. So concerned with this were a number of religious sisters who were members of the orders whose superiors were members of LCWR that they wrote to Rome to seek some kind of action. In response to this the Holy See conducted a five year doctrinal investigation and found what they found. I have absolutely no problem with orders of nuns believing things that are incoherent or incompatible with the Catholic faith but doing so whilst still professing to be Catholic is simply dishonest and wanting to have some special pass that allows them to ignore the settle teaching of the Church and be excused the obedience to the Church's teaching that the rest of us are bound to is special pleading of the most pathetic kind.

That may be so, but it is a curious way to go about it. I imagine if you wanted to push an idea underground and make it even more destructive to church unity, then this is certainly a blueprint on how to do just that. But it's not just LCWR, lets be honest. Irish clergy, orders and laity have also had their knuckles rapped recently for more or less the same 'concerns of doctrine'. I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover that this is a pattern observable throughout the Roman Catholic Church at present. I know there are concerns about unity, and yes that is hugely important, I would feel however that a process of listening, dialogue and discernment would be more beneficial and would be a more likely satisfactory outcome for all involved. The way its being dealt with at the moment makes it look like a bunch of cardinals with their backs against the wall, slapping the dissident hoardes back into their seats and telling them to be good, even though they don't understand why they are asked to be good! Smacks of an act of desperation and fear, yet - unless I read it wrongly - there isn't any great fear of a split over these issues at all.
My arse it does. It's Rome finally having enough backbone to clean house after decades of local hierarchies being either unable or unwilling to do so.

--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria

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SeraphimSarov
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It should have happened 30 years ago but I fear the experimentation of the 1970's and 80's has meant that the Rot has already set in

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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"

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SeraphimSarov
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
AKA let's undo everything we did in Vatican I and II and pretend we all think exactly the same on everything.

What's the big fear here?

No. It means that the "Spirit of Vatican II" can stop distorting that Council's very moderate decisions for their agendas

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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"

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Mary LA
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Louise: Out of interest, what do they mean by 'radical feminist themes'? What constitutes 'radical' from that point of view?

Robert Arnum: Why is Joan Chittister such a bogey woman?

Well, the dreaded and reprehensuble Joan Chittister isn't particularly radical. In fact her Benedictine views would be considered balanced and mild by most standards.

I'm embarrassed to have started such a controversial thread from newcomer ignorance. The liberal nuns will either have to back down or they will join so many others and leave the Church. They won't be missed except in the Third World and amongst poorer communities.

A month ago I was in the Eastern Cape and saw two Precious Blood sisters in the noon heat digging graves out in the veld. They work with multi-drug-resistant tuberculosis patients who have been forcibly quarantined because of contagion. I also know them as skilled mediators with hospital trade unions. If they are excommunicated, the work will go on. They know where they are needed.

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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark

Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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"The Episcopal Church Welcomes You"
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by Mary LA:
I'm embarrassed to have started such a controversial thread from newcomer ignorance.

Don't be. The denizens of the Ship LOVE controversial threads because it is, after all, a discussion board.

Purgatory is the perfect place for controversy, too--nobody wants to discuss the weather or knitting patterns here.

Also, welcome to the Ship.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
‘…while there has been a great deal of work on the part of LCWR promoting issues of social justice in harmony with the Church’s social doctrine, it is silent on the right to life from conception to natural death…’

I saw this summarized in yesterday's newspaper -- just how much time did Jesus spend speaking about the poor, the hungry, the oppressed -- and how much time on birth control and abortion?

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
opaWim
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# 11137

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quote:
Originally posted by Mary LA:
I'm embarrassed to have started such a controversial thread from newcomer ignorance.

There's nothing to be embarrassed about.
Purgatory is "our space for serious debate (yes, really)"

And serious debate is potentially enlightening to all sides in the debate.
For instance, as a result of this thread, I've discovered that sr. Chittister is a lot less provocative than I remembered her to be [Biased]

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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.

Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Mary LA:
The liberal nuns will either have to back down or they will join so many others and leave the Church.

They should clearly do the latter. As you say, many others have and many others will continue to do so. And this will continue until the RCC becomes just one more small fundamentalist sect yapping away at the ankles of society, but with no real power or ability to influence people's lives.

[ 20. April 2012, 15:11: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
# 3128

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For those of you who don't think this intervention from Rome was merited, look at this excerpt from the USCCB's document:
quote:
Addresses given during LCWR annual Assemblies manifest problematic statements and serious theological, even doctrinal
errors. The Cardinal offered as an example specific passages of Sr. Laurie Brink’s
address about some Religious “moving beyond the Church” or even beyond Jesus.

This is a challenge not only to core Catholic beliefs; such a rejection of faith is also a
serious source of scandal and is incompatible with religious life. Such unacceptable
positions routinely go unchallenged by the LCWR
, which should provide resources for
member Congregations to foster an ecclesial vision of religious life, thus helping to
correct an erroneous vision of the Catholic faith as an important exercise of charity.
Some might see in Sr. Brink’s analysis a phenomenological snapshot of religious life
today. But Pastors of the Church should also see in it a cry for help.

The LCWR's response? That they don't "knowingly" invite speakers who speak against the Church, and if they do that's their own affair and not necessarily what the LCWR itself thinks.

Many, many women religious and others in the US who have been putting up with this kind of seriously subversive program have been literally "crying for help" - to their bishops and to Rome - for decades. The only criticism I have of this intervention is that it is arguably too late.

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Mary LA:
The liberal nuns will either have to back down or they will join so many others and leave the Church.

They should clearly do the latter. As you say, many others have and many others will continue to do so. And this will continue until the RCC becomes just one more small fundamentalist sect yapping away at the ankles of society, but with no real power or ability to influence people's lives.
That is most certainly what it seems determined to do. Thanks to JPII and Papa Razzi.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
... I would feel however that a process of listening, dialogue and discernment would be more beneficial and would be a more likely satisfactory outcome for all involved. The way its being dealt with at the moment makes it look like a bunch of cardinals with their backs against the wall, slapping the dissident hoardes back into their seats and telling them to be good, even though they don't understand why they are asked to be good! Smacks of an act of desperation and fear, yet - unless I read it wrongly - there isn't any great fear of a split over these issues at all.

To this outsider, it just looks like housecleaning. "A process of listening, dialogue and discernment" about settled doctrines of the Catholic Church? If they want to push theological boundaries ...

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
"The Episcopal Church Welcomes You"


Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
And this will continue until the RCC becomes just one more small fundamentalist sect yapping away at the ankles of society, but with no real power or ability to influence people's lives.

Roflmao. You certainly are adrift on a sea of surreality.

In the alternative the Catholic Church could give in to the LCWR, adopt the theologies advocated by LCWR, the path to which has so clearly blazed by our friends in ECUSA and, like ECUSA become a giant astride the world scene so that when her spokespersons speak, the world hangs on their every word. [Killing me]

Mary LA, I don't know whether it's a sort of passive-aggression or genuine uncertainty in your mind but there is nothing in this reform that should have the slightest effect on the apostolic work of female orders working in the Eastern Cape or anywhere else. This is about recalling the superiors of an increasingly ageing, increasingly inactive collection of religious orders in the USA, many of whom haven't attracted a single vocation in twenty years and whose apostolates are now almost all being exercised at one remove, to the Catholic faith. Why that should have any effect on the work you've just observed is beyond me.

As for the suggestion that dialogue is the route to the resolution of this, fletcher christian:: Christ-on-a-bike the dialogue has gone on for forty years. When will these people either display an ounce of humility and a grain of integrity and accept that it is the office of the Bishops in the Church that gets to determine what is in accordance with the deposit of faith not them, that it has decided and that is an end to it, or face up to the fact that they've moved beyond the Catholic faith and it's communion and face the consequences.

[ 20. April 2012, 16:02: Message edited by: Trisagion ]

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
# 3128

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quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
The church covering up for and tolerating priests raping children- the Vatican won't condemn this but they'll come down like a ton of bricks on women whose experiences in bringing Christ's love to those who most need it, lead them to question the hardline doctrines dreamed up by men in ivory towers.

I re-echo Trisagion's response to this, Evangeline. But not only but also...

Another indictator that all was not well with the LCWR was the astonishing hypocrisy of the leadership criticising the priests and bishops over the abuse scandal when their own record is so poor. Don't believe me? Don't take my word for it. Here's what Frances Kissling had to say a couple of years ago:
quote:
We — feminists and progressive Catholics — love them [liberal nuns]. And so we were surprised when the LCWR leadership refused to allow survivors of sexual abuse by Catholic sisters to address the past few annual meetings. The survivors want to share their stories of abuse as well as suggest processes to prevent such abuse in the future, including recommending that the sisters adopt the bishops’ anti-sex-abuse guidelines. To date, the nuns have just said no. Even the bishops allowed the survivors time on the agenda of their annual meeting some five years ago when the clergy sex abuse scandal was at its peak.

What was wrong with these sisters who have worked for democracy in the church, the rights of the poor and marginalized, and just about every social justice issue you could think of? Were they in denial? Afraid of the publicity?

Barbara Blaine, co-director of SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, told me that she couldn’t understand LCWR’s unwillingness to listen to survivors. “It’s such a bad move. Even if they weren’t sincere it would make more sense to invite us, listen politely and then ignore us. Stonewalling just makes them look bad.” Blaine, a survivor of sexual abuse by a priest, organized two demonstrations calling on LCWR to hear the survivors.

Or try the pretty liberal Fr Thomas Doyle:
quote:
In light of the highly visible and vocal support of most contemporary nuns, including their leadership in LCWR for victims of social injustice both inside and outside the Church, we would certainly expect that they would quickly respond openly, honestly and with compassion to victims of religious women. The opposite has been true. The religious congregations of women who have been sued have fought the victims with a viciousness that was equal to or exceeded that of many bishops. The LCWR has treated the victims who have tried to communicate with them in a disgraceful and downright unchristian manner. They have been as cold, as clerical, as arrogant and as dishonest as the bishops. They have refused to even consider cleaning the mess in their own house. They have treated those who have brought the mess to their attention with cruelty and disdain.
The LCWR have certainly not got the excuse that they were "preaching the truth to power" on this particular issue.

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

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quote:
...
Barbara Blaine, co-director of SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests...[/QB]

Chesterbelloc, given that the American Bishops have now
gone after SNAP in the courts, using them as a point to make your case against the LCWR probably isn't your best tactical move. William Donaghue's remark about altar boys in the article seems particularly unfortunate.

His remark reinforces my first thought when I heard the story yesterday--namely, that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church needs someone with a clue about public relations in the worst way right now. They seem utterly incapable of taking any action (however necessary or legitimate) without doing it in such a manner as to royally embarrass and piss off the largest number of people possible.

I'm not talking about non-Catholics being pissed off, either. I'm talking about the laity of the Catholic Church.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335

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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
"The Episcopal Church Welcomes You"

Indeed [Snore]

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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"

Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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I am in comparative ignorance but could somebody please explain the differing approaches being used too SSPX and the Nuns? Not least (and I did not introduce the Nazis to this thread) as SSPX seem to my outsiders view to be a damn sight more dodgy/doctrinally unsound.

I think I get His Holiness is trying to pull back form the fringes, make the fringes less fuzzy and create a more homogenous unit but there does seem to be some differing approaches. Or am I misreading the two situations, they may not even be comparable.

AtB, Pyx_e

--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
And this will continue until the RCC becomes just one more small fundamentalist sect yapping away at the ankles of society, but with no real power or ability to influence people's lives.

As opposed to their current status of a large fundamentalist sect yapping away at the ankles of society, but with no real power or ability to influence people's lives?

--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
# 3128

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quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Chesterbelloc, given that the American Bishops have now gone after SNAP in the courts, using them as a point to make your case against the LCWR probably isn't your best tactical move.

I didn't endorse SNAP to make a point against the LCWR. I actually think some of SNAP's conduct is pretty shabby myself. Rather, I used articles by people who do support SNAP's activities to show that even they (who hold no brief for the bishops, to say the least) don't think the LCWR have anything teach the bishops on this score; and I did that in response to Evengeline's implying that the the bishops' handling of the abuse scandal was a reason for laying off the LCWR.

The fact that SNAP and their supporters are responding this way just helps to make my case against the LCWR's having any kind of moral high ground over the bishops and Vatican on this issue.

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
# 3128

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I am in comparative ignorance but could somebody please explain the differing approaches being used too SSPX and the Nuns? Not least (and I did not introduce the Nazis to this thread) as SSPX seem to my outsiders view to be a damn sight more dodgy/doctrinally unsound.

In fact, Pyx_e, the SSPX differ from Vat II on far fewer issue than the LCWR seem to. Most of Vat II was reiterating previous "traditional" doctrine on Christ, the Church, Papal and episcopal authority, Scripture, etc. Apart from a very technical issue over interpreting the Council's pronouncements on religious liberty, and some emphases on ecumenism and the liturgy, the SSPX have very little beef with the Council (which pronounced no new dogmas whatsoever).

Whereas, the LCWR seem committed to many of the loonier fringe interpretations of the "spirit" of Vat II - which fly in the face of the Council's actual documents.

--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
CL
Shipmate
# 16145

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I am in comparative ignorance but could somebody please explain the differing approaches being used too SSPX and the Nuns? Not least (and I did not introduce the Nazis to this thread) as SSPX seem to my outsiders view to be a damn sight more dodgy/doctrinally unsound.

I think I get His Holiness is trying to pull back form the fringes, make the fringes less fuzzy and create a more homogenous unit but there does seem to be some differing approaches. Or am I misreading the two situations, they may not even be comparable.

AtB, Pyx_e

The SSPX have no real problem with about 95% of the actual content of Vatican II. The inverse is true of the LCWR.

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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria

Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I am in comparative ignorance but could somebody please explain the differing approaches being used too SSPX and the Nuns? Not least (and I did not introduce the Nazis to this thread) as SSPX seem to my outsiders view to be a damn sight more dodgy/doctrinally unsound.

I think I get His Holiness is trying to pull back form the fringes, make the fringes less fuzzy and create a more homogenous unit but there does seem to be some differing approaches. Or am I misreading the two situations, they may not even be comparable.

AtB, Pyx_e

I think the two situations are comparable in the following ways:

a. the Pope, perhaps especially this Pope, sees the Petrine Ministry one of maintaining the communion of the Church and so keeping the LCWR in, rather than allowing them to move outside is important as is healing the schism with the SSPX;

b. both these groups can only be kept in/brought back in on the basis of an assent to the faith of the Church and so the process with regard to each has and will involve a robust engagement with dissent from that teaching and an honest acknowledgement of what that teaching is and its status is; and

c. 'religious submission of the mind and will' to the Church's teaching is not something that either group find at all easy.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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Thank you all three.

P

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It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Autenrieth Road

Shipmate
# 10509

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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
The note from the CDF is here and before indulging in reflexive Vatican bashing or scare mongering it would repay five minutes reading. A few highlights that leapt out at me were:
quote:
‘Some speakers claim that dissent from the doctrine of the Church is justified as an exercise of the prophetic office. But this is based upon a mistaken understanding of the dynamic of prophecy in the Church: it justifies dissent by positiing the possibility of divergence between thge Church’s magisterium and a “legitimate” theological intuition of some of the faithful.’

Talk about a hermetically sealed definition to defend the church from prophecy.

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Mary LA:
The liberal nuns will either have to back down or they will join so many others and leave the Church.

They should clearly do the latter. As you say, many others have and many others will continue to do so. And this will continue until the RCC becomes just one more small fundamentalist sect yapping away at the ankles of society, but with no real power or ability to influence people's lives.
Apparently you share the Vatican's view that they are the RCC.
This is of course in line with the Codex Iuris Canonici where it is clearly stated that all and any authority in the RCC rests with the hierarchy of the priesthood. While not all of the priesthood is in the Vatican, they are subordinate to their respective bishops (in some cases their abbot) who are in turn subordinate to the pope, for all practical purposes: the Vatican.
It is also clearly stated in the CIC that no member of the priesthood is accountable to any laity for his actions.
And lastly you can read in the CIC that, at the end of the day, the laity has no formal say whatsoever in any matter at all.
Most of the time this absolute power of the Vatican is not exercised, firstly because nowadays they have lost most of the clout to enforce it and would too often lose face, but secondly because the RCC would inevitably grind to a virtual standstill if it were. If the RCC were to depend on the leadership skills, and basic social skills, of the vast majority of the priesthood, it would long ago have ceased to exist.

Outside the Vatican the vast majority of RC's do not engage in being a "fundamentalist sect yapping away at the ankles of society, but with no real power or ability to influence people's lives".
We try, each in our own imperfect way, and with varying success, to follow Jesus Christ and be beneficial to our neighbors. What the Vatican does or says plays a much smaller role in our lives than the Vatican would wish, and than you apparently wish to believe.
The practical truth is that individual RC's and RC-organizations all over the world manage to do a lot of good, quite often in spite of Vatican interference.

Why would we leave the RCC?
Because we should leave a bunch of self-inflated officials to improve our church into fruitless stone-dead perfection?
Because other churches have less faults?
Because not being a member of a church is preferable?

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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.

Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Trisagion
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# 5235

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Thank you, opaWim. Without you I'd never have discovered what I actually thought and come to realise that, despite the three thousand or so posts I have made which suggest at least some degree of complexity of thought, I am instead a two dimensional Vatican villain straight from central casting.

How refreshing to learn that you speak for all the rest of the Catholic Church and that if we want a pure, spotless, sinless view of the Catholic faith, all we need to do is ask you. All those years spent in study wasted, when all I needed to do to hear the authentic voice of Christ in the Church was to ignore the Bishops and listen with obsequium religiosum to your take on things.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Seems to this liberal lesbian Quaker that the Vatican is well within its rights to insist that its own religious orders agree with and teach its core doctrine. I don't agree with RC teaching on presthood or human sexuality - I deal with this by not being Roman Catholic. I really don't understand why you would you choose a religiously dedicated life within a church with which you fundementally disagree. (Tis essentially what I don't understand about the folk who didn't transfer to the RRC until the ordinariate was provided - why stay if you thought the sacraments were dodgy, nothing was stopping you converting.)

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Doubleposting to add, I really don't see what this has to do with the abuse scandal. Slightly smaller percentage of male priests engaged in child abuse than the percentage of males in the general population - organisation engaged in arse covering in the same manner as most large care providers over the same period (bad thing) - ??therefore?? Heresy is OK?

[ 20. April 2012, 21:36: Message edited by: Think² ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

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I suspect the hard question is "How far will your critique of current Vatican policy, based as it is on authentic in house decisions, be regarded by those given authority in it, if you are either outside the Roman Catholic Church, or inside and seemingly either not in accord with, or directly in conflict with, policy?".

Practically, I suggest, the answer is "Not very far".

--------------------
Well...

Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged



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