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Source: (consider it) Thread: Heaven: Hymns that make you go 'Huh?'
Gracious rebel

Rainbow warrior
# 3523

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I have a confession to make. There are well known hymns that I have been singing all my life, that I can even sing off by heart from memory, but if I stop and think about what I'm singing, I really don't have much clue what the words mean. I guess its the poetic form that makes them so obscure.

So what are the most obscure words that you regularly sing? And perhaps others may be able to shed light on what these words really mean.

I will start us off with one we sang this morning, one I've been singing since primary school - Morning has broken! I get the gist of the basic idea, praising God for each new day. But some of the lines make no sense to me whatsoever:

quote:
'Praise for them springing fresh from the Word.'
who/what is springing, what is the Word?
quote:
Sprung in completeness where His feet pass.
Sprung? Is that the springing again? What is springing here? And 'His' feet I guess means God, as it has a capital letter, but what is the imagery here?
quote:
Born of the one light, Eden saw play
This is the one I really have NO CLUE about. Who/what was born of the one light (whatever that is) and what does 'Eden saw play' mean. Garden of Eden? Play? Sorry don't get it!

Can anyone enlighten me, and/or post your own obscure hymn lyrics?!

[ 07. October 2012, 00:41: Message edited by: jedijudy ]

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
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I will take the easy bit, but you need to take the whole verse:

quote:

Morning has broken, like the first morning
Blackbird has spoken, like the first bird
Praise for the singing, praise for the morning
Praise for them springing fresh from the Word.

Right the connection made in the first two lines is between the present situation and the creation. The third line moves to thanks for joys of bird song and mornings. The last line is saying that just as the first day and the first bird were a creation by God, so to is this morning and the blackbird. The use of "Word" is a reference back to the opening three verses of the gospel of John

quote:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So far pretty orthodox.

Now the trick is to take this really quite advanced theological mysticism and apply it to the following two verses. The garden maybe Eden but it can also be Gethsemane with the completeness of salvation.

The third verse I always feel as moving towards heresy. I don't feel our own experience of creation was specially crafted for us, rather we are specially crafted parts of the greater whole. However the idea that God created the whole of creation, not just set it off at the start and let it unwind is pretty orthodox. However it proposes a very different causal mapping to any we experience within creation.

Jengie

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Gamaliel
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Well, Gracious Rebel, seeing as the hymn was originally a poem by Eleanor Farjeon, and, like many poems, later set to music as a hymn, I can see the difficulty.

S'funny, because I've never really troubled myself unduly (apart from when I used to sing it in school assemblies) as to what it means.

Looking at it again, I would suggest that it is the 'singing' and the 'morning' that the 'them' that the poet refers to.

In essence, what she's saying is this:

Let us give praise for the singing of the birds. Let us give praise for the morning, too. Let us give praise for both of them for they each come from God.

'Praise for them springing fresh from the Word.'

I would take 'the Word' as a reference to Christ rather than to scripture - Christ as the word of God. As well as the direct references to Eden there may be an echo or allusion to 'In the beginning was the Word' from John chapter 1.

As for 'sprung in completeness, where His feet pass' - well, the whole thing is an allusion to God walking in the Garden of Eden in the cool of the day, of course. It is the 'sweetness' of the wet garden that is 'sprung in completeness'. I always had the sense of the grass being 'springy' and bobbing up as it were as the Lord's feet passed, but I'm sure it doesn't really mean that.

I suspect it's more a case that the grass has sprung forth and been made complete as per the rest of Creation - 'and God saw that it was good.'

It's a lovely poem and a lovely hymn and I submit that the meaning isn't difficult. It's simply that each new days is a reminder of the first day that God created. There's something heavenly in the everyday ...

The difficulty in the syntax may be solved by those who're more into grammar than I am, but it would seem to me that 'singing' and 'morning' are the 'them' that are the object of the phrase 'Praise for them springing fresh from the Word.'

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Gamaliel
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Sorry, I missed the 'born of the one light/Eden saw play'. And I've now read Jengie's explanation of it.

Well, to stick with the literal meaning.

Mine is the sunlight!
Mine is the morning.
Born of the one light
Eden saw play!

Well, I take it that the poet is simply saying that the sunlight and the morning are both 'ours' as they are gifts of God's creation to us and that we are part of that creation too - 'born of the one light/Eden saw play!'

You've heard the expression 'light played across the wall' or 'across his face' etc? That's all that 'play' means here - light playing across created surfaces and giving them definition.

Like the first light of Eden, the daylight and the morning has its origin in God's divine fiat - he brought it into being and sustains everything.

I don't particularly see what is so 'unorthodox' about these sentiments although one could detect a note of pantheism or panentheism if one were so inclined.

Personally, I'm less bothered by that and more appreciative of the subtle internal rhymes and effects that Farjeon builds up. It's a delightful little piece, a real gem.

But then, I'm a lot less of a Puritan than Jengie Jon is these days ...

[Razz]

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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Is not "orthodox". Is Orthodox. Is Uncreated Light, Energies of God, enhypostatically present and directly visible to unfallen persons in Eden!

Is refutation of Westernising pseudo-Papalist heresy of Barlaamist pigs!

[Two face]

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Hoagy
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It's why I'm 6 month & 1 week into my sabbatical away from Church and loving it.

I know the words off by heart after 12 years of regular attendance and on average 5 out of every 6 weeks...and Hymns were a major factor after deciding that the Parish Share was seemingly all they( the Church ) was concerned about,as against spreading the Gospel...

I think Church would be more attractive to people if we were spared mawky hymns and Hymns that made me go "huh".

First thing I used to do after taking my pew was to check the Hymns,and used to cringe at some..

"If I were a Butterfly"..mainly for kids and none to be seen !...with "If I were a wiggly worm" and "Elephants waving their trunks" made me cringe as much as watching some of the middle of the road Congregation of about 40... (average age 60 ) do the actions

Then of course there was "walk in the light of the Lord" and usually sung like a dirge or worse when someone tried to get it going with a "Clap Clap" at the end of each verse..

After 6 months away from Church i can honestly say I do not miss the Hymns and will be moving on from a Church of England that is making no attempt to evangelize and imploding as it marches towards irrelevance and Disestablishment..

Rant over and off to Las Vegas for a 2 weeks break soon ,and someone else can sing mawky hymns & pay for the upkeep of a Listed Church that locals use as a convenience but never attend.

[Overused]

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Gamaliel
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Well, I avoid any service that involves songs like that, Hoagy. It is possible to find services that don't ...

@Ken - [Big Grin]

I'd thought of the Uncreated Light too ... but hadn't thought to give it the Fr Vassily treatment ...

A hymn that's often taxed my comprehension in parts is Charles Wesley's 'Love Divine' - even though we had it at our wedding (to Blaenwern of course) ...

I eventually realised it was something of a defence of the Wesley's particular (and peculiar) sanctification doctrines.

The bit that a former house-church leader and myself pondered over long and hard by email was:

'Let us see thy great salvation,
Perfectly restored in thee.'

[Confused]

How could God's great salvation be 'perfectly restored' apparently within himself? Weren't we the objects of salvation, not God himself?

Unless I'm missing something very obvious, I concluded that the literal meaning was something along the following lines:

'May we, who are perfectly restored by God, see His great salvation.'

Or, 'Let us, who are perfectly restored in thee, see thy great salvation.'

That's how I made sense of it at any rate.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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:sigh: I love that hymn. [Tear]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Mudfrog
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I see that line as meaning that God's plan of salvation will be restored and fulfilled, in the way it should have been, and that this salvation will be 'in Christ'.

When jesus comes again he will bring salvation with him - not that there is n o salvation now, but that there is to be a final salvation when all is brought together in Christ.

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Zacchaeus
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Gamiel I always understood 'let us see they great salvation, perfectly restored in thee' This way:-

Jesus is the great salvation, who died and was restored and joined God - so let us see Jesus in heaven.

Is how I've thought it - now somebody else will come along and tell me I am way off the mark...

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Chamois
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# 16204

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
'Let us see thy great salvation,
Perfectly restored in thee.'

[Confused]

How could God's great salvation be 'perfectly restored' apparently within himself? Weren't we the objects of salvation, not God himself?

Unless I'm missing something very obvious, I concluded that the literal meaning was something along the following lines:

'May we, who are perfectly restored by God, see His great salvation.'

Or, 'Let us, who are perfectly restored in thee, see thy great salvation.'

That's how I made sense of it at any rate.



I've always thought this is a reference to Psalm 51 v12 "Restore to me the joy of thy salvation".

My only reason for thinking this is that Wesley based so many of his hymn lyrics on Bible verses. Many of his hymns seem to me as though he'd taken a pair of scissors to the Bible, cut out verses he liked and re-shuffled them into hymns.

Part of the fun of singing Wesley's hymns is trying to spot all his references.

I agree with Zaccheus that the "perfectly" refers to Jesus. OT salvation not being perfect, and all that.

[ 05. August 2012, 16:18: Message edited by: Chamois ]

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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases

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Jay-Emm
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I always wondered what was special about the Brethren Shield referred to in Eternal Father.

[edited to add I did parse it correctly eventually, but I still spot it]

[ 05. August 2012, 16:35: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]

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Gamaliel
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Ok - that all fits.

I'm not saying that my 'take' was the correct one, just an attempt to make sense of what is probably the hardest section to follow. It's quite a convoluted section within an otherwise straight-forward hymn, though.

Sure, there is a lot of scripture in Charles Wesley's hymns and they're all the better for it. I'm always struck by how much scripture there is in Orthodox chant too ...

I hope people don't think I was dissing the hymn at all, far from it.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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que sais-je
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quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:

So what are the most obscure words that you regularly sing? And perhaps others may be able to shed light on what these words really mean.

Can anyone enlighten me, and/or post your own obscure hymn lyrics?!

On a slightly different tack. I grew up in a city and had no idea what a "moor" was when I first learned "We Three Kings". I imagined them travelling through field, fountains, more fields and fountains, then mountains.

Later I puzzled over "room to deny my self a way to bring me daily nearer God" which seemed an invitation to, at best, agnosticism.

And though I know the words I still hear "Bright the vision that delighted/once the sight of Judas' ear". Can any one actually sing "Judah's seer"?

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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)

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Gracious rebel

Rainbow warrior
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Is not "orthodox". Is Orthodox. Is Uncreated Light, Energies of God, enhypostatically present and directly visible to unfallen persons in Eden!

Is refutation of Westernising pseudo-Papalist heresy of Barlaamist pigs!

[Two face]

Is it just me having a really thick day, or is Ken beginning to channel Martin PCnot ?! [Confused]

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Gracious rebel

Rainbow warrior
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quote:
Well, I take it that the poet is simply saying that the sunlight and the morning are both 'ours' as they are gifts of God's creation to us and that we are part of that creation too - 'born of the one light/Eden saw play!'

You've heard the expression 'light played across the wall' or 'across his face' etc? That's all that 'play' means here - light playing across created surfaces and giving them definition.

Like the first light of Eden, the daylight and the morning has its origin in God's divine fiat - he brought it into being and sustains everything.

Wow thanks Gamaliel that's a real lightbulb moment for me (scuse the pun) - I never would have considered that 'play' was connected with 'light', and so I saw 'Eden saw play' as a stand alone statement that made no sense at all to me! Your explanation makes much more sense.

It had always seemed a bit irreverent to me to be talking of 'playing' going on in Eden, as the Fall is serious stuff!

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Gamaliel
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It helps if you read 'through' the line-breaks, Gracious Rebel. It's called 'enjambement'.

I take it you read 'Born of the one light' as a standalone statement too. As in 'Born of the one light - full stop' rather than 'Born of the one light/Eden saw play.'

If you take each line of a hymn or poem as a stand-alone statement then there's going to be a lot of confusion ...

I presume you read the following as a run-on statement?:

Now thank we all our God,
With hearts and hands and voices,'

Admittedly, it's helped by the commas here but it's the same principle.

I'm not saying this to take the mickey, it's just that they don't teach this stuff very well at school.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I'm not saying this to take the mickey, it's just that they don't teach this stuff very well at school.

Do they teach this stuff at school?

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venbede
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"Prostrate before thy throne to lie, and gaze and gaze on thee."

Hang on, Father Faber. How can you gaze at someone when you are prostrate before them?

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Gamaliel
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Well, yes, they do touch on 'enjambement' in GCSE English lessons, Boogie.

I s'pose what I meant was that, back in the day, when we sang hymns in assembly it was rarely explained to us what the words meant nor how to read the sense from line to line.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Gracious rebel

Rainbow warrior
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Never heard the term enjambement, but I fully understand the principle, and singing in the church choir we are always being reminded to carry over a line to the next when there is no comma, or the sense demands it. Most well known example I can think of is in a Carol:

Thus spake the seraph / and forthwith
appeared a shining throng
of angels / praising God /who thus
addressed their joyful song

(Where '/' indicates where I would breathe or make a break)

The reason I wasn't able to parse the 3rd verse of Morning has broken in this way, was that the words just didn't make any sentence to me! I gues there is actually a 'which' or 'that' missing, to make it grammatical isn't there, ie 'born of the one light which Eden saw play'. Knowing that 'play' refers to 'light' makes all the difference!

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Aggie
Ship's cat
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I will take the easy bit, but you need to take the whole verse:

quote:

Morning has broken, like the first morning
Blackbird has spoken, like the first bird
Praise for the singing, praise for the morning
Praise for them springing fresh from the Word.

Right the connection made in the first two lines is between the present situation and the creation. The third line moves to thanks for joys of bird song and mornings. The last line is saying that just as the first day and the first bird were a creation by God, so to is this morning and the blackbird. The use of "Word" is a reference back to the opening three verses of the gospel of John

quote:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So far pretty orthodox.

Now the trick is to take this really quite advanced theological mysticism and apply it to the following two verses. The garden maybe Eden but it can also be Gethsemane with the completeness of salvation.

The third verse I always feel as moving towards heresy. I don't feel our own experience of creation was specially crafted for us, rather we are specially crafted parts of the greater whole. However the idea that God created the whole of creation, not just set it off at the start and let it unwind is pretty orthodox. However it proposes a very different causal mapping to any we experience within creation.

Jengie

A priest I once knew always used to say "Never learn your theology from hymns".

Needless to say he was not a fan of hymns in general.

--------------------
“I see his blood upon the rose
And in the stars the glory of his eyes,
His body gleams amid eternal snows,
His tears fall from the skies.”
(Joseph Mary Plunkett 1887-1917)

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ecumaniac

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quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:A priest I once knew always used to say "Never learn your theology from hymns".

Needless to say he was not a fan of hymns in general.

I had a nun friend who always used to say "lex orandi, lex credendi" which I interpreted to mean that people will eventually come to believe the stuff that they keep singing, so pick the hymns carefully! Maybe the modern version is "garbage [hymns] in, garbage [theology] out"?

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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine

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Lord Jestocost
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quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
On a slightly different tack. I grew up in a city and had no idea what a "moor" was when I first learned "We Three Kings". I imagined them travelling through field, fountains, more fields and fountains, then mountains

I had no problem with moors but I did wonder about the fountains. Why not just walk round them, like most people do?
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Gamaliel
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@Gracious Rebel, yes, there could be a 'which' or a 'that' but then it wouldn't scan, I don't think ... but we often leave them out in 'normal' speech too.

I might say 'I'm going to pick up the ball my daughter threw in through the window,' for instance, rather than '... the ball which my daughter ...'

But I can see how the line/s caused confusion, particularly if you weren't associating 'play' with the 'one light'.

As for getting our theology from hymns ... well, Charles Wesley believed that people tended to do so, of course, which was why his hymns are full of his particular 'take' on 'holiness' as well as other emphases that he favoured. Wesleyan hymns do tend to have quite a 'high' sacramental flavour too.

I'm not sure anyone would go too far astray with 'Morning Has Broken' though, although I can understand Jengie's caveats to it.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Hoagy
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Jesus "wanting me for a sunbeam " huh ?
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, yes, they do touch on 'enjambement' in GCSE English lessons, Boogie.

I'm pretty sure they didn't in my O-level back in the 1970s. So much for "dumbing down". Don't tell Michael Gove, he'll probably get the curriculum changed to remove it. We can't have the oiks wasting time on airy-fairy stuff like poetry that will be of no use to their future employers, can we?

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:

Is refutation of Westernising pseudo-Papalist heresy of Barlaamist pigs!

[Killing me]

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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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I'm not sure they covered it in my O Level back in the 1970s either, ken, but I know they cover it now as my daughter's just done her GCSEs - and I also went into an English GCSE lesson to help out last year in a nearby town and they were covering it there.

As for the dumbing down element ... well, my daughter knew and understood the term but I'm not sure she really understood its application or the difference it's meant to make ... but then, that's a rather rarefied point ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
I had no problem with moors but I did wonder about the fountains. Why not just walk round them, like most people do?

It's pretty dry traveling through the desert, and since Jesus was probably NOT born on December 25, it was very likely a hot time of year too. Think of children running through a sprinkler on a hot day.
[Biased]

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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iamchristianhearmeroar
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# 15483

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One hymn I never understand at school - and greatly disliked singing due to Sandy's boring tune - was George Herbert's "Teach me my God and King".

Looking back on it now the first four verses aren't too troublesome but why on earth does the last verse seem to mix alchemy with theology?

"This is the famous stone
that turneth all to gold;
for that which God doth touch and own
cannot for less be told.
"

Any takers?

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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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'Fountain', of course, originally didn't refer to the statuesque water-features we know and love today. It simply referred to rivers or streams. It's just a poetic way of saying that the Magi covered all conceivable types or terrain, 'field and fountain/moor and mountain ...'

Besides, something had to rhyme with 'mountain' didn't it?

There's also some neat alliteration there too, of course - Fs and Ms ... Field and Fountain, Moor and Mountain.

And contrasts, too, cultivated fields constrast with uncultivated moors and blasted heaths ... and fountains (or floods) contrast with mountains or high ground.

Simples.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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Because it's a poem and it's a metaphor, Iamchristianhearmeroar.

The last verse sums up and comments upon all that has gone before. There's an 'alchemy' at work, the poet suggests, in all that he has described so far.

So, alchemically speaking, the bloke looking at the mirror doesn't just rest his on it, but looks through it and into the heavens ... something alchemical, some kind of 'change' takes place.

In the third verse we are told that 'nothing can be so mean' as not to be able to partake of the divine glory or nature - again, a 'change' takes place. What is mean or lowly can become 'bright and clean.'

Then the servant with the broomstick in verse 4, sweeping a room 'as for thy laws' ie. 'as unto the Lord' transforms the humble action into something 'fine'. An alchemy, a transformation takes place.

So, using the analogy of the Philosopher's Stone, Herbert suggests that 'this' ie. doing things 'as unto the Lord' or perceiving his glory in everything has a transforming effect on our outlook - 'turneth all to gold'.

Again, simples.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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The Great Gumby

Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989

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Along the lines of the fountain, I always wondered what was up with the peasant in Good King Wenceslas. He's out gathering winter fuel, which is fair enough, but he lives a good league hence, right against the forest fence. I can't help wondering why he'd walk such a ridiculous distance when there must be a plentiful supply of firewood on his doorstep. Even allowing the possibility that the forest's private in some way (hence the fence), there are always plenty of sticks and twigs within a decent radius of any group of trees.

Oh, and:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Simples.

You're dead to me. [Disappointed]

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

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Lord Jestocost
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# 12909

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Besides, something had to rhyme with 'mountain' didn't it?

"That's not countin' moor and mountain ...?"

Okay, no.

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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I nearly didn't type the 'simples' but then ... I gave way ...

[Hot and Hormonal]

I promise not to do it again. There, can I be resurrected.

@Lord Jestacost ... ha ha ... but this thread is tempting me to start a Purgatory one asking why some people are so 'literal' when it comes to hymns ...

[Roll Eyes]

Oh - and on the alchemy thing (for whoever asked), Herbert was writing in the 17th century when alchemy was rather a big deal. If he'd been writing today he might have alluded to quantum physics or something ...

'Look folks,' he's saying,'Transformation wrought by God, that's the real alchemy ...'

I dunno. What DO they teach in school these days?

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Sparrow
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# 2458

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quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Along the lines of the fountain, I always wondered what was up with the peasant in Good King Wenceslas. He's out gathering winter fuel, which is fair enough, but he lives a good league hence, right against the forest fence. I can't help wondering why he'd walk such a ridiculous distance when there must be a plentiful supply of firewood on his doorstep. Even allowing the possibility that the forest's private in some way (hence the fence), there are always plenty of sticks and twigs within a decent radius of any group of trees.

He lives a good league hence from where Wenceslas and the page are, presumably in da castle. He lives on the edge of the forest, by the fence, and he probably does just have to step outside his back door to gather wood.

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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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@Sparrow, you've got it.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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PaulBC
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# 13712

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quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Along the lines of the fountain, I always wondered what was up with the peasant in Good King Wenceslas. He's out gathering winter fuel, which is fair enough, but he lives a good league hence, right against the forest fence. I can't help wondering why he'd walk such a ridiculous distance when there must be a plentiful supply of firewood on his doorstep. Even allowing the possibility that the forest's private in some way (hence the fence), there are always plenty of sticks and twigs within a decent radius of any group of trees.

He lives a good league hence from where Wenceslas and the page are, presumably in da castle. He lives on the edge of the forest, by the fence, and he probably does just have to step outside his back door to gather wood.
Never mind what he was collecting. I have often wondered how did a Czhec King bcome a favorite in England, and just about everywhere else ? [Votive] [Angel] [Smile]

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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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Thinking about it, though, 'yonder peasant' must have wandered a fair distance in order to be visible from the castle - 'a good league' would be a pretty long way to be able to pick him out and recognise his features. Even if he'd wandered 'half a league, half a league, half a league onward' the page would have had difficulty making him out unless he had powerful binoculars ...

So, perhaps Sparrow and I are wrong after all.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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If wikipedia is be believed, PaulBC, Wenceslas (who was a Duke, not a King, fancy that ...) had become popular in England quite early on.

John Mason Neale the hymn writer was quite into High Church traditions so he'd have picked it up through a liking for the 'medievalism' that was a feature of High Church Anglicanism back in the mid-19th century when he wrote the carol.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_King_Wenceslas

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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leo
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# 1458

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And it is John Mason Neale's commemoration day tomorrow.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Barefoot Friar

Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100

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If there's that much snow on Dec. 26 ("the Feast of Stephen"), he's probably already burned up the sticks that were around his cabin. As the winter draws on, he'll have to wander further and further afield in his search for firewood.

Unless he poaches wood from the forest, that is.

So he's looking around close enough to the castle that Wenceslas can see him and recognize what he's doing.

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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
A priest I once knew always used to say "Never learn your theology from hymns".

Needless to say he was not a fan of hymns in general.

R.W. Dale said that he did not mind who wrote the denominations theology as long as he got to write its hymns. This is interesting as, having done minor checking, I know of no evidence R.W. Dale ever wrote any hymns.

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

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georgiaboy
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# 11294

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quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
A priest I once knew always used to say "Never learn your theology from hymns".


TEC is, I believe, the only Anglican body which has an officially adopted hymnal, the texts being approved by the church's General Convention with much the same procedure as Prayer Book Revision.

And the 1928 BCP had a rubric which directed (or at least implied) that no texts should be used in worship which were not 'in the words of Holy Scripture, the Prayer Book or the Hymnal' (I may not be quoting correctly, as I have no copy at hand.)
At least one bishop in whose jurisdiction I was employed required that any text not so conforming must be submitted for his prior approval.

That said, the hymnal in some instances has 'advanced' the church's theology. To quote a couple:
Stanza 4 of #278:
'Sing the chiefest joy of Mary …
and the Lord … brought her to his heavenly home;
where, raised … with saints and angels …
she beholds her Son and Savior reigning as the Lord of Love.'
or Stanza 2 of #618:
'O higher than the cherubim …
Thou bearer of the eternal Word,
most gracious, magnify the Lord.'
(and this latter was also in the prdecessor volume of 1940!)

And the General Convention, which would probably have scattered in panic at a whiff of incense, happily approved these rather 'spikey' sentiments.

(And a Goode Thinge, Too!)

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You can't retire from a calling.

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churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
# 5557

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OK, I'm late to this conversation, but I still have to give my take on these poems/hymns.

First of all, I'd add, to the connection of "the Word" with John's prologue, the fact that God created the world by speaking it into existence. "...springing fresh from the Word" then has a double meaning: in its original creation, the world sprang, popped, "poofed" into being by fiat of God's Word. In Christ, the Word made flesh, creation is re-made. And every morning we see that creation afresh and we have a new day to praise God and live into God's grace.

As for:
quote:

Mine is the sunlight!
Mine is the morning.
Born of the one light
Eden saw play!

(Does anyone know if that punctuation is the original poet's?)

I think it can be read, "My sunlight is the sunlight, and my morning is the morning born of the one light Eden saw play." In other words, same source, same sunlight, same morning (in a poetic sense).

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The bit that a former house-church leader and myself pondered over long and hard by email was:

'Let us see thy great salvation,
Perfectly restored in thee.'

[Confused]

How could God's great salvation be 'perfectly restored' apparently within himself? Weren't we the objects of salvation, not God himself?

I think "Perfectly restored in thee" refers back to "us." As in, "Let us, perfectly restored in thee, see thy great salvation." But that didn't scan or rhyme, so it's worded as it is. You could also re-word it: "Let us see thy great salvation, being perfectly restored in thee," where "being" (or, "having been," if you prefer) refers to "us."

That's as far through the thread as I've gotten so far...

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I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

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churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
# 5557

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quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
And though I know the words I still hear "Bright the vision that delighted/once the sight of Judas' ear". Can any one actually sing "Judah's seer"?

Similarly, I wonder to myself (jokingly, of course) how we know Mary was wearing purple when Jesus was born: "Thou who inviolate didst bring forth God the Word..." [Razz]

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
"Prostrate before thy throne to lie, and gaze and gaze on thee."

Hang on, Father Faber. How can you gaze at someone when you are prostrate before them?

Maybe bring a mirror? [Snigger]

OK, being serious now:

quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
I had a nun friend who always used to say "lex orandi, lex credendi" which I interpreted to mean that people will eventually come to believe the stuff that they keep singing, so pick the hymns carefully! Maybe the modern version is "garbage [hymns] in, garbage [theology] out"?

ABSOLUTELY. [Overused] Our corporate prayer, which includes the hymns we sing, forms us in thought, word, and deed. Or it should, anyway.


quote:
Originally posted by Hoagy:
Jesus "wanting me for a sunbeam " huh ?

Though it's not a hymn, I much prefer Bruce Cockburn's "Let me be a little of your breath / moving over the face of the deep / I wanna be a particle of your light / flowing over the hills of morning" (from the song, "Hills of Morning," on the album Dancing in the Dragon's Jaws)

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I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

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Gill H

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# 68

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George Herbert, like the other metaphysical poets, went in for some weirdo imagery. I mean, John Donne's best chat-up line involved talking about fleas...

The Herbert one that always gets me laughing, though, is 'King of glory, king of peace' for the line:

"Thou didst note my working breast"

In the Holy Land Experience in Florida they have an an animatronic William Tyndale, so presumably somewhere there is an animatronic George Herbert, complete with working breast?

And maybe it produces "the cream of all my heart"...

[ 07. August 2012, 00:07: Message edited by: Gill H ]

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- Lyda Rose

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The Great Gumby

Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Thinking about it, though, 'yonder peasant' must have wandered a fair distance in order to be visible from the castle - 'a good league' would be a pretty long way to be able to pick him out and recognise his features. Even if he'd wandered 'half a league, half a league, half a league onward' the page would have had difficulty making him out unless he had powerful binoculars ...

So, perhaps Sparrow and I are wrong after all.

That's precisely what I don't get. Obviously, King and Page are in the castle, the peasant's clearly identifiable, which means he's very close to the castle, but he lives miles away (Ye Olde Wiki says a league is traditionally an hour's walk), and from the mention of the bright moon, it appears to be the middle of the night which makes identification harder. Also, 26th December is very early to be running out of firewood, with the coldest winter months still ahead.

It's a nice tune and story, but it doesn't make a bit of sense.

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

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venbede
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# 16669

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At school I took the line "Once the sight of Judah's seer" to mean "Once the sight of Judah's sneer", ie that he was mocked by the Jews.

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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