quote:

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Originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:
NB would it be possible to have a REAL silence in the liturgy? ie something more than an 'Anglican silence' which is the time it takes the priest to draw breath between saying "Let us pray" and starting the collect

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i thoroughly agree. that irks me, especially in the confession, when we are given barely a minute to think over our sins and previous week. so can we incorporate a decent length silence (possibly in the intersessions?) during the service?

Could we add something to the absolution, to reflect the fact that forgiveness doesn't just give peace, it can also be hugely challenging as we can't use the excuse "I'll just get it wrong" to not do something? I'm not 100% happy with the following, but it's all I could come up with for this:

Following on from bb's absolution,

The Lord forgives; never too much,
never too little.
In the Lord there is perfection and peace.
Be still and receive the forgiveness and peace of the Lord.

{pause}

Accepting that forgiveness we must now move on,
to try again where we have fallen, no matter how often.
In offering forgiveness before we can even ask for it,
the Lord calls us beyond the safety of our failures,
into the unknown depths of God's disturbing love.

NB I'm certainly an amateur too - the idea of anyone describing me as a professinal liturgy writer struck me as very funny!

had some more thoughts in church tonight.....

We believe in Jesus Christ who dies for us, so that we might live for him. He is the divine fool, who spoke against the wisdom of the world, and turned the worldy order topsy-turvy. He calls us to be fools for him now, although not idiots!
We believe in one God; Creator, Saviour, and Helper, a divine mystery we cannot comprehend.
We believe in a God who cradles our weaknesses in the palm of his hand, whilst inspiring us with his strength.

not sure whether this is now making sense, had a long day...

grant that we, trusting in your everlasting love for us, may be prepared to defy the conventions of our age, to expect to find your presence in unlikely places and to use the skills and resources you have given us to spread the Gospel message;

through Jesus Christ Our Lord, who,defying the expectation of his enemies, is alive and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen

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I'm not over-happy with it yet - the language is rather formal compared with the other material, but that's just how I am!

Please feel free to make alterations - but not please to the actual structure. A collect is not just a prayer - it is a prayer with a specific structure (which I have tried to follow) and a specific purpose (in this case to spell out some of the theme of the service).

tonyk, i like it. it's not hugely formal. and (within my church anyhow) the collect for the day is usually a bit more formal than our service structure and responses etc.... my 3.58340893pence for what it's worth

I know things haven't been easy recently and we've all had many more serious concerns to address - but I'd hate to see this mini-project fade away!

quote:

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Originally posted by TonyK:
Ideas, guys?

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how about someone pulls up what we have so far, both the bits that are definite, and the bits people have written, saying 'well i thought this might be a starting place...'

that would make it easier (in my mind at least) to see what we have/haevn't figured out, and therefore what we needed to think on

is this possible?

• How about amending Joan't'D's sentence to Go with God, God goes with you ?
  
• Tony K's collect, first sentence, uses 'world' twice, how about replacing the 2nd time with 'humanity', or something else?
  
• can we have, somewhere, 'our hearts are restless till they find their rest in you'? Collect for 16th Sunday after Trinity
  

Lord, we have said too much and said too little.
(pause to reflect on insensitive remarks and lack of comfort/encouraging remarks)

Lord, we have done too much and done too little.
(pause to reflect on being too busy and procrastinating)

Lord, we have prayed too much and prayed too little.
(pause to reflect on praying to change the order of things to suit ourselves and ignoring real injustice)

Lord, we have thought too much and thought too little.
(pause to reflect on hair-splitting and prejudice)

Lord, we have loved too much and loved too little.
(pause to reflect on infatuation or smother-love and ignoring those who don't interest you)

Lord, we have confessed too much, and confessed too little.
(reflect on the minor transgressions that you've blown up so that they obscure the major transgressions.)

Lord,
You know all that is said and unsaid,
done and undone,
prayed for and unprayed for,
thought and ignored,
loved and unloved,
confessed and hidden.

The Lord forgives; never too much,
never too little.
In the Lord there is perfection and peace.
Be still and receive the forgiveness and peace of the Lord.
{pause}
Accepting that forgiveness we must now move on,
to try again where we have fallen, no matter how often.
In offering forgiveness before we can even ask for it,
the Lord calls us beyond the safety of our failures,
into the unknown depths of God's disturbing love.

Collect
O Lord our God, who uses the foolish things of the world to confound the
wise, and sent our Lord Jesus to be a stumbling-block and a challenge to the world;

grant that we, trusting in your everlasting love for us, may be prepared to defy the conventions of our age, to expect to find your presence in unlikely places and to use the skills and resources you have given us to spread the Gospel message;

through Jesus Christ Our Lord, who,defying the expectation of his enemies, is alive and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen

Psalm 34, or otherwise (Fiona Jane Brown)

I cried unto the Lord and He heard me,
And sent me the love of all my dear friends,
The Angel of the Lord encamps round about them that fear Him,
And creates a shield from the prayers of those closest to me.

Such kindness and friendship in a wicked world,
Was indeed a treasure to discover.
An oasis in the boiling seas of life,
Where all my shipmates came to gather round me.
I had not thought such love
Still existed in this fast decaying time,
But you all care more than any
A balm to a troubled spirit and frightened heart.
Reminded me who holds the chart,
Who the pilot of my ship is,
Who has the answers and listens when I scream and stamp.
Who puts the sun behind the clouds
To burst through a billion times brighter
When the storm passes.

My guardian angels were the hearts of my friends,
There in the time of need,
Let me praise you and the Captain,
Whose sons and daughters we all are,
For giving such clear assurance,
He's still in charge.
----------------------------
Land ahoy, me lads,
The Journey won't be much longer,
Press on towards the shore,
To gain an eternal harbour secure.

Credo (Sarkycow, Joanthedwarf)
we believe in unrest, to separate the chaff from the wheat.
we believe in doubt, in questions, in opinions. god has them; jesus has them, why shouldn't we?
we believe in ourselves - the only people who can change things.
we believe in jesus, the subversive, the rebel. he regarded people rather than laws as important. he felt all feelings, including anger, pain and abandonment.
we believe in a god who uses misfits, oddballs, unlikely, ordinanry people to tell his story.
We believe in love, that comforts and challenges, that never lets us stay still but always draws us towards God.
We believe in Jesus Christ who dies for us, so that we might live for him. He is the divine fool, who spoke against the wisdom of the world, and turned the worldy order topsy-turvy. He calls us to be fools for him now, although not idiots!
We believe in one God; Creator, Saviour, and Helper, a divine mystery we cannot comprehend.
We believe in a God who cradles our weaknesses in the palm of his hand, whilst inspiring us with his strength.

The Peace (Campbellite)
God loves you, and there is nothing you can do about it."

Lord's Prayer
God, whose home is heaven, who we on Earth love, and laugh with, and revere, may we help to build your Kingdom right here and now, uniting Earth with Heaven in one creation centred on you and living by your light and your love.

You became an embodied spirit, like us, and you know our needs of body and soul. May we have what we need to live so that we may give ourselves wholly to you.

Challenged by the knowledge of your complete forgiveness, help us to forgive others. Forgive us that we are afraid to receive only the forgiveness we have given.

We believe you will not break us, but if we must be tested for your glory and our growth then give us strength.

Do not abandon us in the darkness that is sometimes our own minds, and stand between us and others who may try to imprison us in the darkness of the world.

We ask this of you because from you comes all goodness and love, all strength and all the light that pierces the darkness, for all time and outside time.

Dismissal (Paul sheppy)
The worship is over; the service begins.
Go, people of Go, into God's world.
Mett Christ in friend and stranger,
serve him in all you meet.
And may the blessing of God,
Father, Son and Holy Spirit fill you
and the whole of creation,
now and always.

[bidding prayer]
Spirit of the living God, As we pray Open in our hearts the unrestful spirit within, that as you come among us, we will accept you. We come expecting much, let us go away refreshed and thankful.You know our secrets, and our lives. Let us lay them before you, that we which we do too much and too little. You who are embodied in us now, show your spirit through our hands and feet, our lips and lives.

Lord, hear our prayer[ans] And when you call, let us come unto thee.

let us lay our lives before you, those things that we do, too much and too little.

quote:

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The Worship is over, the service begins

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Lord God, who uses foolishness to confound the wise, and who sent our Lord Jesus as a stumbling-block and challenge for the world;

may we, trusting in your everlasting love for us, be prepared to defy the conventions of our age, to expect to find your presence in unlikely places and to use the skills and resources you have given us to spread your message;

And why make things more 'formal'? I thought that this was to be for personal use.

Re: a canticle what do people think of the following which I wrote at the end of last term. It wasn't written specifically with Christian unrest in mind but it might fit.

God, Creator of all that is,
You cannot be pinned down
Defined, caged in, summed up;
We might try in theology or religion,
To say God is x or y;
He belongs to us;
But you ARE;
Beyond our exclusiveness,
Our cliques, our firm boundaries
Always leading us on,
Pillar of fire or cloud
The wind blowing where it wills
A butterfly calling us onwards
Fluttering just out of our grasp

And yet,
On the cross you were pinned down
Or rather up.
Nailed there, left to die
Dead and buried.
Out of sight,
Gone.

Or so we thought
But, Unpinnabledown God
You could not be contained in that cage of death
Burst from the tomb
Rose Again

quote:

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Originally posted by Angel of the North:
OK - collected so far:

(The Confession)
...
The Lord forgives; never too much,
never too little.
In the Lord there is perfection and peace.
Be still and receive the forgiveness and peace of the Lord.
{pause}
Accepting that forgiveness we must now move on,
to try again where we have fallen, no matter how often.
In offering forgiveness before we can even ask for it,
the Lord calls us beyond the safety of our failures,
into the unknown depths of God's disturbing love.

---

what is the function of a canticle? where does it fit into the service/liturgy? is it just for the leader to say, or does everyone join in?

thanks,

quote:

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what is the function of a canticle? where does it fit into the service/liturgy? is it just for the leader to say, or does everyone join in?

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Not sure I can define a canticle but as no-one else has tried, I'll give it a go.

They tend to be like a psalm but not from the book of psalms (but the Venite is a psalm and used as a canticle in Morning Prayer). Some are biblical, for instance at Evening prayer the commonest canticles are the Magnificat and Nunc Dimitis (they're named after their beginning in Latin, they Mary's song (My soul magnifies the Lord) and the Song of Simeon (Lord now you let your servant depart in peace)). But others were written by the early church like the Te Deum. Not quite sure I'd like to say what makes something a canticle. I've never worked out what to call 'Unpinnabledown God' I just wrote it. It's not exactly a poem nor a meditation.

As too use, they are often sung, either to Anglican chant or to settings. . When chanted often by the whole congregation (not necessarily well) but settings tend to be choir only, but can also be said, often responsively.

And, babybear, some of us are comfiest with the old forms at times. I've said what I wrote, in thou form, and it feels nicer. Given most of this is in modern english, and is meant to be a fusion of traditions - basically what each of us brings to it.

I use thee and thou, unconsciously, in speech. Trying to think it into coherent written english doesn't happen often, hence the blunder.

I love Carys's piece - I've seen it before, hence not commenting here before now.

quote:

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Argh, no 'thee's and 'thou's. People (with a very few local exceptions) have not spoken like that for years and years.

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No, but they have remained in the liturgy (what does it say about the English that we've lost our familiar pronouns?) and I for one feel that you is colder when someone has 'modernised' something and taken the thee's and thou's out. It is a problem, I just wish English hadn't lost the distinction. Using 'ti' (the Welsh familiar form) to God really brought his nearness home to me, we can be familiar to him. Unfortunately people (like the Trinitarian Bible Society) miss understand this in English.

If people would like to discuss 'thee' and 'thou' then please take it elsewhere for the time being. I really do not feel able to cope with this discussion, yet again, right now.

These particular words tend to bring out the dogmatic side of people (including me). Let's put language issues onto the back burner for a few weeks.

This is merely a request from this particular host.

What is happening with the liturgy? s3 has been very quiet round here of late.

How about this as a possible Advent Collect?

Lord Jesus the Christ,
who was content to be born of a woman,
laid in a trough,
and honoured by outcasts,
and who has promised to come again on the clouds
when every eye shall see you;
come to us now.
Open our eyes to see those people that the world casts out,
open our hearts to care for those issues that make us uncomfortable,
open our hands to do the work that you set before us.
Come and disturb us in our comfortable complacency
that we might strive for your righteousness and your kingdom,
and so glorify your holy name.
All this we ask for your love's sake. Amen.