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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: More bizarre news from Mars Hill
chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
And that is exactly what any number of people in this thread and others were doing. It's also completely in order to point out that this sort of case is a fairly direct consequence of the particular model of authority adopted and prompted by Mars Hill/Acts29.

[brick wall] This case? You mean one anonymous person's version of events presented by a blogger. What exactly happened is exactly the case in point.

What you are saying is this - "who cares whether this is actually a fair description of what happened, it fits my view of where Mars Hill strategy leads so it must be true. In fact, Exhibit A."

No. I'm not saying that at all. It's more along the lines of "I think X leads to Y for the following reasons".

I don't know how true this particular blog post is - I would be wary of anyone with the particular views that Driscoll demonstrates in the video I linked to attempting counselling.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Go. Read. Understand. And if you want character assassination, why not see what ConEvos say about OpenEvos? It's like the hard left all over again.

That just makes it worse. You now seem to be saying "you lot started it." Do two wrongs make a right? The stuff referring to KJS was diabolical. Here in Australia the Christian right can be awful. A lot of the current rhetoric around marriage is shrill to say the least. I've said that publicly.
It doesn't make it worse. It's worse already. You asked for examples, I gave you examples.

Of course two wrongs don't make a right, but many on the 'hard right' of the Christian church has absolutely no compunction at denigrating by any means at their disposal anyone who isn't them.

I have no doubt there are also some very waspy libruls, but dammit, they're too disorganised to mount a really effective hate campaign.

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Johnny S
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It doesn't make it worse. It's worse already. You asked for examples, I gave you examples.

Actually I asked for examples on the ship but I suppose it is a bit late for that now.

Since we all seem to agree with one another I think we should all have a group hug.

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Tubbs

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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
...

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
That said, I'm not sure that all the contributors to this thread have attacked Driscoll's character. His behaviour maybe ...

Maybe this is a tangent but I'd be interested in how you distinguish the two. For me this cuts to the heart of this thread. Driscoll's teaching and ideas are fair game on a bulletin board (for me anyway) but once we start a trial of character via this medium I think a line has been crossed.

...

I’ll try and unpack this a bit … Going back to the model of the independent evangelical church founded by a (wo)man with a vision from God that I mentioned earlier. One of the factors in the church’s growth is whether or not the congregation buy into the founder’s vision, trust that they will lead them in a Godly way and believe they are someone anointed by God to lead.

(The relationships between congregations and leadership in an independent church work differently to a church that’s part of a group because in those churches there’s always the knowledge that eventually the minister’s going to move on lurking in the background).

Although Mars Hill is massive in terms of bums on pews, it is essentially an independent evangelical church. Driscoll is the founder and leader. He says Make It So and someone does. Mars Hill hasn’t, unlike some of the other churches in the same peer group, pushed other leaders forward and encouraged them to develop a profile.

It’s almost impossible to discuss one without discussing the other because they’re essentially one and the same.

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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CSL1
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:

quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:

You're absolutely right, there has to be, otherwise we'd have to consider Paul in sin when he: 1). harshly criticized those whom he referred to as "Super Apostles" in 2 Corinthians, 2). publicly took Peter to task for snubbing gentiles, 3). critiqued the Judaizers and said they might as well complete their cicumcisions via castration, etc. etc.

Certainly we're never called to shut down our brains, shut up our mouths and allow people to throw themselves into abuse without a word of warning. We're commanded to expose evil, while understanding that we're inherently no better than the worst of them and could, given the proper conditions, fall prey to it ourselves. If we can't do that, then might as well turn off the lights and shut it all down, what's the use of the discernment given by the Holy Spirit anyway?

I agree with your second paragraph but I'm not sure your first one is a fair comparison. Paul spoke to Peter's face and wrote letters directly to the Corinthians. Organising a whispering campaign via the internet seems very different to me.

If that was me I'd do all I can to bring my concerns to the attention of the leadership. If that failed and I felt a crime had been committed then I'd take it to the Police. However, if after my attempts they still refused to listen I'd just have to let it go. Shake the dust from my feet.

What I smell here is not an appeal for justice but a cry for revenge. YMMV. Obviously.

I understand your point--to an extent.

But I don't think the internet can fairly be described as a "whisper campaign" in this day and age, it's more a public shout; the net is roughly the equivalent of regular mail 1,950 years ago, the only difference I can see is the anonymity, many, including me, use a nom de plume (that may be a difference of substance in God's eyes, I don't know).

The "whipser campaign" you describe would be better represented by a series of private emails among a group of malcontents conspiring against a leader who is unaware until it's too late, unable to respond or defend himself. Of course, that's a common tactic used by abusive church leaders towards members.

Paul most certainly did not just oppose people to their faces or write only of his opposition to people who are members of a given church to whom he was writing. I'm hard-pressed to see how a letter written in opposition to abusers, warning believers of their tactics and sent to a community, the Corinthians, and later made public, is qualitatively different from a post to a community (Ship of Fools, SGM Survivors, etc.), written in opposition to abusers, warning believers of their tactics and simultaneously made public.

The bottom line for me is whether the allegations are true or false. If they're false, it doesn't matter to whom they're written or how, it's wrong to publicize them or whisper them in private. If they're true, then I'd say the same principle applies.

We live in transient Western societies where there are any number of people perusing forums liable to move to a major metro like Seattle and decide to give Mars Hill a try, or move to one of the many cities where NFI and SGI churches reside, or any number of other systems prone to abuse. I don't think there's anything wrong with giving fair warning of what people might be throwing themselves and their families into. In fact, I think if you stop at shaking dust off your own feet and let other people go straight into the fire, that's sin by omission. We're commanded to "expose evil".

[code]

[ 28. June 2012, 23:00: Message edited by: John Holding ]

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
The bottom line for me is whether the allegations are true or false. If they're false, it doesn't matter to whom they're written or how, it's wrong to publicize them or whisper them in private. If they're true, then I'd say the same principle applies.

The thing is that I don't believe the allegations are true or false.

There is probably some truth, but the young lady is obviously somewhat biassed - she seemed to change once she no longer wanted to be married to her husband - also, tabloid journalism will have sensationalised all this out of all proportion.

I know someone who is not of my denomination will balk at the idea of kissing icons - imagine what a tabloid journalist would do with that?

I don't think we ever can establish what is true and what is not from such an account. I don't know how Mars Hill can resolve it's problems with Mark (that is if they are as bad as the article implies) - but certainly the starting point should not be a tabloid journal article.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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CSL1
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
The bottom line for me is whether the allegations are true or false. If they're false, it doesn't matter to whom they're written or how, it's wrong to publicize them or whisper them in private. If they're true, then I'd say the same principle applies.

The thing is that I don't believe the allegations are true or false.

There is probably some truth, but the young lady is obviously somewhat biassed - she seemed to change once she no longer wanted to be married to her husband - also, tabloid journalism will have sensationalised all this out of all proportion.

I know someone who is not of my denomination will balk at the idea of kissing icons - imagine what a tabloid journalist would do with that?

I don't think we ever can establish what is true and what is not from such an account. I don't know how Mars Hill can resolve it's problems with Mark (that is if they are as bad as the article implies) - but certainly the starting point should not be a tabloid journal article.

I suppose with regard to her particular account, I agree, we'll never know. Point taken.

What I'm primarily defending is the public posting of what people have actually experienced, seen heard, verified in some manner. If I've read what someone says, listened to their sermons, been personally abused by them, had those whom I trust report such abuse to me, I have no compunction about making it public, at least after I've had the opportunity to confront the perpetrator, if possible. Or if Marc Driscoll, Terry Virgo, C.J. Mahaney, John MacArthur say or write outrageous things and they're posted on the net, or have a distinctives page on their site or a unbiblical loyalty oath required of members, and I can look up these things, I can't imagine anything untoward about publicizing these and calling the leaders to task for it, warning potential visitors to that church.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
Or if Marc Driscoll, Terry Virgo, C.J. Mahaney, John MacArthur say or write outrageous things and they're posted on the net, or have a distinctives page on their site or a unbiblical loyalty oath required of members, and I can look up these things, I can't imagine anything untoward about publicizing these and calling the leaders to task for it, warning potential visitors to that church.

It occurs to me that there is an equal - if not stronger - case than that against 'whispering campaigns by blogs on the internet' that could be made against the sort of ministries that essentially seek to influence beyond their own circle of accountability.

After all, Pastor X would presumably not invite Driscoll to speak at his church. OTOH maybe he has to contend with a youth pastor who wants to turn over the youth groups teaching segment to Driscoll videos, or a mans group that wants to watch Driscoll on Corinthians, or an assistant who wants young marrieds to go through 'Real Marriage' chapter by chapter.

I'm not calling for some kind of thought control - but accusations of inappropriate use of technology can cut both ways.

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CSL1
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
Or if Marc Driscoll, Terry Virgo, C.J. Mahaney, John MacArthur say or write outrageous things and they're posted on the net, or have a distinctives page on their site or a unbiblical loyalty oath required of members, and I can look up these things, I can't imagine anything untoward about publicizing these and calling the leaders to task for it, warning potential visitors to that church.

It occurs to me that there is an equal - if not stronger - case than that against 'whispering campaigns by blogs on the internet' that could be made against the sort of ministries that essentially seek to influence beyond their own circle of accountability.

After all, Pastor X would presumably not invite Driscoll to speak at his church. OTOH maybe he has to contend with a youth pastor who wants to turn over the youth groups teaching segment to Driscoll videos, or a mans group that wants to watch Driscoll on Corinthians, or an assistant who wants young marrieds to go through 'Real Marriage' chapter by chapter.

I'm not calling for some kind of thought control - but accusations of inappropriate use of technology can cut both ways.

It's insidious, they stretch their tentacles across christendom, for purposes of personal pride, revenue streams, recruitment into their churches and/or systems, and scope of influence.

The leaders support each other by setting up national conferences to which they invite one another--I suppose with hefty love offerings taken, honoraria paid, or both. It's a quid pro quo, though, because the big name speakers draw large crowds and millions in conference registration fees nationwide. Typically pastors and other church leaders attend these, often all expenses paid by the congregations (was possibbly, next to the building lease or salaries, the largest budget item at the authoritarian church I once attended). They then bring whatever church leadership advice (or unclean spirit) they receive at the conference back to their congregations. The leaders write recommendations for each other's books, videos, small group study guides, etc. They can cross promote with the best of them. It's big business. And the brand is protected with all the zealotry of a big business, they will circle the wagons in a moment and destroy the reputation of anyone who hurts the "brand" of a cash cow.

Many of these types just want to be Something Big, whatever the cost, but there's little room in that paradigm for Jesus to be Something Big. Often those who fall prey to this, your proverbial youth pastor, for example, have no idea that that popular, hip pastor who leads that video series he's showing to the college group on Sunday evenings is in point of fact a thug using Jesus as a front to draw people to himself.

I've known (and known of) young men who quit their jobs, discontinued their education, abandoned family, friends, etc. and moved over a thousand miles just to serve at the feet of church leaders they know only through Youtube or a video series. Many of these young people are so desperate for a teacher, guru, king (perhaps lack of father figure in their youth?) that they'll put up with all manner of abuse to get it. The Bible says you don't need all these teachers if you have the Holy Spirit, that's what teaches you the truth, the teachers at best are mere facilitators and edifiers. At worst they are money-making enterprises who destroy and distort the truth.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Is it anyone's business except Mars Hill's?

Yes, yes it is.
Driscoll puts his teaching out to the public therefore said teachings are open to criticism by the public.
If his teachings or behaviour lead to abuse, they then should be exposed. Is the woman in the OP link give a fair and balanced account? Hard for us to discern in either direction. However, her description fits with Driscoll's own words.
I don't have a horse in the race of who does Jesus message properly, but I do in regards to promoting misogyny. Driscoll's message is that women are not much more than accoutrements.

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Chorister

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One of the best services that educators can do is to teach people to critically assess everything they hear. Why Mars Hill is so problematic is that their teaching is available to a wide range of people, through the internet, not just to a tiny enclave of followers in the locality. Because many people accept unquestioningly everything they see, hear and read (which is why tabloids do so well), the potential for damage is great.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Mark Betts

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I watched one of Marks videos on "manhood" via YouTube. What do you think the comments were like for the video?...

"Awesome!"
"Just Amazing!"
"Mark Driscoll is so amazing!"
"Praise God for wonderful, talented men like Mark."

Why doesn't someone put something like "What a load of opinionated 'wannabe cool' tosh" (or words to that effect?)

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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LutheranChik
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Mark Betts: For starters, try Stephanie Drury's website/Facebook page "Stuff Christian Culture Likes." That, among others, exposes assholic Mark Driscoll/Mars Hill behaviors.

Or does the fact that a woman run these online properties mean that you won't take what's in them seriously?

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Mark Betts: For starters, try Stephanie Drury's website/Facebook page "Stuff Christian Culture Likes." That, among others, exposes assholic Mark Driscoll/Mars Hill behaviors.

Or does the fact that a woman run these online properties mean that you won't take what's in them seriously?

No - why should it? Anyway I'll take a look, I was just wondering why every comment on his youtube videos seems to pour praise on him and his already over-inflated ego. What do you think?

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Tyler Durden
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
After a messy divorce I don't tend to ask the person's ex-spouse for a character reference. That's not to say that they weren't badly treated but just that their view will not be very objective.)

Good analogy but to extend it, if a man has 3 ex-wives who all testify that he used to beat them up...

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Have you ever noticed that anyone driving slower than you is a moron, while anyone driving faster is a maniac? Jerry Seinfeld

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LutheranChik
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quote:
nyway I'll take a look, I was just wondering why every comment on his youtube videos seems to pour praise on him and his already over-inflated ego. What do you think?A
Why do you think that every news report from North Korea showed citizens pouring praise on Kim Jong Il and his already inflated ego?

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Why do you think that every news report from North Korea showed citizens pouring praise on Kim Jong Il and his already inflated ego?

Yes, I know, but anyone can comment on his videos - they don't have to be his admirers do they?

....wait! Now I understand:
"Comments may be held for uploader approval"

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Mark Betts

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Sorry to double post, but I've found an artilce by Jonna Petry, the wife of a former elder at Mars Hill. It will take about an hour to read, but I think it's worth it:

My Story

The writer doesn't seem to bear any malice, and it seems pretty honest. What it does seem to reveal is more an "abuse of power" by Mark. I'm not very comfortable with the term "spiritual abuse" because it can be applied so easily to anyone who doesn't teach the scriptures the way we think they should be taught.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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CSL1
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Mark Betts: For starters, try Stephanie Drury's website/Facebook page "Stuff Christian Culture Likes." That, among others, exposes assholic Mark Driscoll/Mars Hill behaviors.

Or does the fact that a woman run these online properties mean that you won't take what's in them seriously?

No - why should it? Anyway I'll take a look, I was just wondering why every comment on his youtube videos seems to pour praise on him and his already over-inflated ego. What do you think?
Of course it's because the people who comment on Youtube are from his church and committed to exalting the guru. I once made a critical comment--nothing malicious or obscene--on one of those Youtube videos and when I went back at a later date to check the video someone flagged it "spam". I reposted the comment the next day and chided the person for lying about the nature of my post--and they promptly flagged the follow-up post "spam". Humorous, sure, but it's not so humorous for people in a cultic group who get an epiphany and challenge the leader and thereafter have their families torn apart and careers ruined by leaders and committed followers.

Followers of cultic groups have a lot at stake, inasmuch as they've thrown their destinies into that hands of a man, they will vigorously promote anything he does, they will cheat, slander and assasinate character to justify their own decisions.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
Followers of cultic groups have a lot at stake, inasmuch as they've thrown their destinies into that hands of a man, they will vigorously promote anything he does, they will cheat, slander and assasinate character to justify their own decisions.

I don't know if I'd go as far as to say Mars Hill were cultic, but the article I posted suggested that it should be renamed "Mark Driscoll Ministries" as the whole thing now revolves around him, as their Messiah figure.

As I said, it's really an abuse of power. I don't think Mark set out to deceive anyone, but it's got to the stage where he really does believe all his own hype.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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CSL1
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
Followers of cultic groups have a lot at stake, inasmuch as they've thrown their destinies into that hands of a man, they will vigorously promote anything he does, they will cheat, slander and assasinate character to justify their own decisions.

As I said, it's really an abuse of power. I don't think Mark set out to deceive anyone, but it's got to the stage where he really does believe all his own hype.
That's exactly what I'd say, I sincerely doubt that he rubbed his hands together with a fiendish grin 15 or so years ago and said to himself "By what cunning strategem can I come to dominate this place completely and become weathly, famous and idolized within reformed circles while simultaneously persecuting the church, destroying relationships and twisting the Gospel to the point where it's unrecognizable?" Of course that didn't happen, but not only does power corrupt, it also reveals. If your character flaws are deep and serious enough and there are large sections of your being that are most decidedly compartmentalized and kept free of God's influence, power and authority will reveal these.
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
[QUOTE]That's exactly what I'd say, I sincerely doubt that he rubbed his hands together with a fiendish grin 15 or so years ago and said to himself "By what cunning strategem can I come to dominate this place completely and become weathly, famous and idolized within reformed circles while simultaneously persecuting the church, destroying relationships and twisting the Gospel to the point where it's unrecognizable?" Of course that didn't happen, but not only does power corrupt, it also reveals. If your character flaws are deep and serious enough and there are large sections of your being that are most decidedly compartmentalized and kept free of God's influence, power and authority will reveal these.

Yes.

We pastors can feel powerless because of the frustrations of dealing with difficult parishioners, but the reality is we have far more power at our disposal than we realize. Eugene Peterson calls this an "occupational hazard" in a very real sense, in the same way asbestos or coal dust might be an occupational hazard. He says that is why having a spiritual director is not just "desirable" or "good", but essential in the same way that protective clothing might be essential in other professions.

Sadly, spiritual direction is not really on the radar for most American Protestants. Even finding a spiritual director in many parts of the US evangelical scene is a daunting task.

[ 29. June 2012, 15:43: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I don't know if I'd go as far as to say Mars Hill were cultic,

Not a clear dividing line though, yeah? For some behaviours, the difference between cult tactic and not is intent. Friend of mine is a Christian youth leader and some of what he does in the name of "team building" is straight out of a cult initiation handbook. His intent ,and results, are different, yes. IME, he is not unique in that.
And the same techniques can be used in a malicious manner even if one can not ascribe the word cult to them. I would argue that Driscoll's teachings are malicious regardless of intent.

[ 29. June 2012, 16:00: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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CSL1
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
[QUOTE]That's exactly what I'd say, I sincerely doubt that he rubbed his hands together with a fiendish grin 15 or so years ago and said to himself "By what cunning strategem can I come to dominate this place completely and become weathly, famous and idolized within reformed circles while simultaneously persecuting the church, destroying relationships and twisting the Gospel to the point where it's unrecognizable?" Of course that didn't happen, but not only does power corrupt, it also reveals. If your character flaws are deep and serious enough and there are large sections of your being that are most decidedly compartmentalized and kept free of God's influence, power and authority will reveal these.

Yes.

We pastors can feel powerless because of the frustrations of dealing with difficult parishioners, but the reality is we have far more power at our disposal than we realize. Eugene Peterson calls this an "occupational hazard" in a very real sense, in the same way asbestos or coal dust might be an occupational hazard. He says that is why having a spiritual director is not just "desirable" or "good", but essential in the same way that protective clothing might be essential in other professions.

Sadly, spiritual direction is not really on the radar for most American Protestants. Even finding a spiritual director in many parts of the US evangelical scene is a daunting task.

In my opinion no one person should be the main guy or gal in any fellowship, authority, in a biblical sense, should be shared amongst many. I find no position in the NT that quite matches up with the authority and responsibility we've given that which we call "Pastor", "Reverend", etc. "Pastor" is only mentioned once in the entire NT and hardly at all in the OT, and the word carried such baggage for people in that time and place. It was related to "shepherd", which was most decidedly not seen in the Middle East of that era as some great, exalted leader, but as a lowly helper considered unclean by the Jews of the day, perhaps even disgusting (see Genesis account of how the Egyptians, for example, viewed shepherds). Their lives were considered expendable for a blasted group of sheep! And of course Jesus told His disciples if they wanted to be great leaders they must be lowly, bottom of the rung slaves--you might even say something like the dirt scraped off the congregation's shoes.

Jesus referring to Himself as the "Good Shepherd" must have sounded bizarre to their ears. But more bizarre to the first century church's ears would have been the exalted positions in which pastors have placed themselves. When I see a church sign with bold or italicized letters at the bottom declaring "Rev. T.C. Bartlett, Jr., Head Pastor" I know I've run across a church that doesn't know jack squat about leadership.

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Clarification: "Rev. T.C. Bartlett, Jr., Head Pastor" is a totally made up name; to my knowledge no such person exists in either fact or published fiction. Just trying to avoid the redaction of the name, it was just an example, if you wish, administrator, substitute "John Q. Public". [Razz]
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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
Followers of cultic groups have a lot at stake, inasmuch as they've thrown their destinies into that hands of a man, they will vigorously promote anything he does, they will cheat, slander and assasinate character to justify their own decisions.

As I said, it's really an abuse of power. I don't think Mark set out to deceive anyone, but it's got to the stage where he really does believe all his own hype.
That's exactly what I'd say, I sincerely doubt that he rubbed his hands together with a fiendish grin 15 or so years ago and said to himself "By what cunning strategem can I come to dominate this place completely and become weathly, famous and idolized within reformed circles while simultaneously persecuting the church, destroying relationships and twisting the Gospel to the point where it's unrecognizable?" Of course that didn't happen, but not only does power corrupt, it also reveals. If your character flaws are deep and serious enough and there are large sections of your being that are most decidedly compartmentalized and kept free of God's influence, power and authority will reveal these.
Power corrupts; alternatively, the corrupt seek power?

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
Followers of cultic groups have a lot at stake, inasmuch as they've thrown their destinies into that hands of a man, they will vigorously promote anything he does, they will cheat, slander and assasinate character to justify their own decisions.

As I said, it's really an abuse of power. I don't think Mark set out to deceive anyone, but it's got to the stage where he really does believe all his own hype.
That's exactly what I'd say, I sincerely doubt that he rubbed his hands together with a fiendish grin 15 or so years ago and said to himself "By what cunning strategem can I come to dominate this place completely and become weathly, famous and idolized within reformed circles while simultaneously persecuting the church, destroying relationships and twisting the Gospel to the point where it's unrecognizable?" Of course that didn't happen, but not only does power corrupt, it also reveals. If your character flaws are deep and serious enough and there are large sections of your being that are most decidedly compartmentalized and kept free of God's influence, power and authority will reveal these.
Power corrupts; alternatively, the corrupt seek power?
You said it far more succinctly than me
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Shiprat
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quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
...not only does power corrupt, it also reveals. If your character flaws are deep and serious enough and there are large sections of your being that are most decidedly compartmentalized and kept free of God's influence, power and authority will reveal these.

Brilliant observation [Overused]

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BroJames
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quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
Jesus referring to Himself as the "Good Shepherd" must have sounded bizarre to their ears.

On a Kerygmaniacal tangent, I doubt it sounded bizarre as he sets quite a context within which this claim is made. No doubt it was seen as a BIG claim though in the light of what must surely have been in his hearers' minds from Ezekiel 34
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quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
Jesus referring to Himself as the "Good Shepherd" must have sounded bizarre to their ears.

On a Kerygmaniacal tangent, I doubt it sounded bizarre as he sets quite a context within which this claim is made. No doubt it was seen as a BIG claim though in the light of what must surely have been in his hearers' minds from Ezekiel 34
I bow to your superior knowledge here. Certainly there evidently are prophetic implications, as you've taught me here, I guess not unlike Jesus claiming status as "Son of Man".

Nonetheless, in that milieu, where shepherds were considered ritually unclean and/or disgusting to most in that region, Jew or gentile, the notion of the Father in Ezekiel 34 or Jesus in John 10 claiming shepherd-like attributes, given all that baggage that carried, must have seemed odd. Like David, the one who would be king, starting out as a lowly shepherd. Horatio Alger stuff.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
]In my opinion no one person should be the main guy or gal in any fellowship, authority, in a biblical sense, should be shared amongst many. I find no position in the NT that quite matches up with the authority and responsibility we've given that which we call "Pastor", "Reverend", etc.

"Apostle" probably carries at least as much authority & responsibility. But your overall point still stands. In a smaller solo-pastor church (as the majority are), though, that can be harder to accomplish.


quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
When I see a church sign with bold or italicized letters at the bottom declaring "Rev. T.C. Bartlett, Jr., Head Pastor" I know I've run across a church that doesn't know jack squat about leadership.

To be fair, it probably says more about unexamined social convention than it is a statement about a leadership model. Even in a Reformed church model (which theoretically is all about shared leadership with most decision-making power resting with elders rather than ministers) you're going to find as many badgered and bullied pastors as you will badgering and bullying pastors-- and about every variation in between. But the bottom line is that there is "power" in the institutional authority of the Church, and we ignore the dangers of that power to our own peril.

[ 29. June 2012, 20:24: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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CSL1
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
]In my opinion no one person should be the main guy or gal in any fellowship, authority, in a biblical sense, should be shared amongst many. I find no position in the NT that quite matches up with the authority and responsibility we've given that which we call "Pastor", "Reverend", etc.

"Apostle" probably carries at least as much authority & responsibility. But your overall point still stands. In a smaller solo-pastor church (as the majority are), though, that can be harder to accomplish.


quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
When I see a church sign with bold or italicized letters at the bottom declaring "Rev. T.C. Bartlett, Jr., Head Pastor" I know I've run across a church that doesn't know jack squat about leadership.

To be fair, it probably says more about unexamined social convention than it is a statement about a leadership model. Even in a Reformed church model (which theoretically is all about shared leadership with most decision-making power resting with elders rather than ministers) you're going to find as many badgered and bullied pastors as you will badgering and bullying pastors-- and about every variation in between. But the bottom line is that there is "power" in the institutional authority of the Church, and we ignore the dangers of that power to our own peril.

Understood, I'm not necessarily saying that the pastor's name being on the marquis ipso facto means they're an abusive thug, though I understand perfectly how that would be implied based on the context of my posts.

As to apostles in a First Century biblical sense, that's a source of contention for another thread, though let me add that I'm very much unsure whether they even exist, in that context, in this day and age, and even if the station of apostle does exist as you put it, when I read the NT, it appears to be a great deal like the multiple elders/no single leader model I proposed in my prior post, with all the messiness and back-and-forth that that entails.

Paul didn't camp out in one church and call himself "The Apostle", setting up a single leader, "follow me", "come under my authority" fellowship. Just didn't happen.

As to your other point, you're absolutely right, it may be "unexamined social convention"--perhaps typically it is and is relatively innocuous in most cases. But of course, unexamined but wrong-headed social convention also carries through to the inside of the building, and the U.S. church model, which I can speak a bit upon, tends too often to be content with having but two primary parts of the Body: 1). a single loud mouth, shouting at 2). several sets of quivering buttocks. This model, the setting up of a professional "priesthood" class with made-up titles and responsibilities tends to lead to laziness and a devaluation of the priesthood of all believers. It's also a magnet for sadists.

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I'm confused that her ex-husband is *still* a member (I assume in good standing) at Mars Hill as he remarried. I would think that Driscoll would believe that he should remain single, and only remarry if he's reconcilled to his first wife, or to someone else after she dies.

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quote:
Originally posted by rhflan:
I'm confused that her ex-husband is *still* a member (I assume in good standing) at Mars Hill as he remarried. I would think that Driscoll would believe that he should remain single, and only remarry if he's reconcilled to his first wife, or to someone else after she dies.

I think, in some exclusive types of churches, a partner who has left the faith is considered to be 'dead', and therefore he would be free to marry again. How convenient, and all that...

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quote:
Originally posted by rhflan:
I'm confused that her ex-husband is *still* a member (I assume in good standing) at Mars Hill as he remarried. I would think that Driscoll would believe that he should remain single, and only remarry if he's reconcilled to his first wife, or to someone else after she dies.

It's not like you actually expect consistency and integrity from Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill, is it? [Killing me]

Reminds me of the authoritarian church I once attended and served about 6 months as an elder before being removed for asking too many questions. It was cut very much along the lines of Mars Hill (in fact, the young turks there knew exactly who he was and thought him The Bomb). Anyway, I once suggested at an elder's meeting that perhaps it wasn't a good thing for it to be so testosterone-dominated, "Perhaps we could have a woman on the elder's team...maybe to head up women's ministries and the like, what you think?" I was quickly tut-tutted and put in my place with 1 Tim 2. Well after the fact, though, after we'd left the church, it occurred to me that the majority of elders were very young and new and newer believers, thus clearly violating 1 Tim 3.

The point was apparently they didn't give a rat's patoot about the Bible, they only used it to serve their purposes.

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Johnny S
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

We pastors can feel powerless because of the frustrations of dealing with difficult parishioners, but the reality is we have far more power at our disposal than we realize. Eugene Peterson calls this an "occupational hazard" in a very real sense, in the same way asbestos or coal dust might be an occupational hazard. He says that is why having a spiritual director is not just "desirable" or "good", but essential in the same way that protective clothing might be essential in other professions.

Or, ironically in this case, why an Eldership can dilute the controlling influence of Pastor.

IME a lot of non-conformist churches are blind to this issue. They often fear an Eldership as creating a controlling power-base while blissfully unaware that without it (or its equivalent) the full-time Pastor(s) has (have) a lot of power.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

We pastors can feel powerless because of the frustrations of dealing with difficult parishioners, but the reality is we have far more power at our disposal than we realize. Eugene Peterson calls this an "occupational hazard" in a very real sense, in the same way asbestos or coal dust might be an occupational hazard. He says that is why having a spiritual director is not just "desirable" or "good", but essential in the same way that protective clothing might be essential in other professions.

Or, ironically in this case, why an Eldership can dilute the controlling influence of Pastor.

IME a lot of non-conformist churches are blind to this issue. They often fear an Eldership as creating a controlling power-base while blissfully unaware that without it (or its equivalent) the full-time Pastor(s) has (have) a lot of power.

fwiw, Peterson himself is a Presbyterian, so not at all blind to the diluting effect of a positionally strong eldership. Yet he still finds sufficient power in the ministerial position to give him pause.

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

We pastors can feel powerless because of the frustrations of dealing with difficult parishioners, but the reality is we have far more power at our disposal than we realize. Eugene Peterson calls this an "occupational hazard" in a very real sense, in the same way asbestos or coal dust might be an occupational hazard. He says that is why having a spiritual director is not just "desirable" or "good", but essential in the same way that protective clothing might be essential in other professions.

Or, ironically in this case, why an Eldership can dilute the controlling influence of Pastor.

IME a lot of non-conformist churches are blind to this issue. They often fear an Eldership as creating a controlling power-base while blissfully unaware that without it (or its equivalent) the full-time Pastor(s) has (have) a lot of power.

fwiw, Peterson himself is a Presbyterian, so not at all blind to the diluting effect of a positionally strong eldership. Yet he still finds sufficient power in the ministerial position to give him pause.
The Presbyterian (PCUSA) church where I was a ministry staffer (youth director) had a very fine polity model and a good balance between elders and pastors. No one got too far out of line.
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Sorry to double post, but I've found an artilce by Jonna Petry, the wife of a former elder at Mars Hill. It will take about an hour to read, but I think it's worth it:

My Story

The writer doesn't seem to bear any malice, and it seems pretty honest. What it does seem to reveal is more an "abuse of power" by Mark. I'm not very comfortable with the term "spiritual abuse" because it can be applied so easily to anyone who doesn't teach the scriptures the way we think they should be taught.

This is the most compelling story I've yet read about the ugly goings-on at Mars Hill. I've seen similar episodes in like-minded churches, her account rings so true. You're right, she absolutely doesn't sound like she's malicious or disengenuous.
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To go back a little, I might as well explain my caution on this one.

I have a friend who I will call X. Sadly X's marriage ended some years ago, and its collapse precipitated X's departure from the church X and spouse attended, which was also the place they met. Talking to X would leave one convinced that X's former church was downright cultish and at least partly to blame for the break-up of X's marriage. There are two problems with this. Firstly, X has a tendency to read too much into quite innocent comments/incidents (its one of X's few faults - X is a lovely otherwise). Secondly, I know other people who are or were involved with said church independently of X, who I trust, and I really don't get a remotely cultish vibe at all. Note that I don't think that X is being intentionally dishonest in any way. My guess is that X has been trying to make some sense of a deeply traumatic event, and in doing so has unwittingly constructed a comforting, comprehensible narrative which makes sense of a very complicated, messy situation, but is not entirely accurate.

[ 30. June 2012, 19:19: Message edited by: Yerevan ]

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Arminian
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Just out of interest does anyone know how much Mark Driscoll gets paid ? I can't find it anywhere - which is similar to Terry Virgo.

Not good when both organizations seem very good at trying to find out what individuals are putting in the plate.

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Amazing Grace

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
[QUOTE]That's exactly what I'd say, I sincerely doubt that he rubbed his hands together with a fiendish grin 15 or so years ago and said to himself "By what cunning strategem can I come to dominate this place completely and become weathly, famous and idolized within reformed circles while simultaneously persecuting the church, destroying relationships and twisting the Gospel to the point where it's unrecognizable?" Of course that didn't happen, but not only does power corrupt, it also reveals. If your character flaws are deep and serious enough and there are large sections of your being that are most decidedly compartmentalized and kept free of God's influence, power and authority will reveal these.

Yes.

We pastors can feel powerless because of the frustrations of dealing with difficult parishioners, but the reality is we have far more power at our disposal than we realize. Eugene Peterson calls this an "occupational hazard" in a very real sense, in the same way asbestos or coal dust might be an occupational hazard. He says that is why having a spiritual director is not just "desirable" or "good", but essential in the same way that protective clothing might be essential in other professions.

Sadly, spiritual direction is not really on the radar for most American Protestants. Even finding a spiritual director in many parts of the US evangelical scene is a daunting task.

I did read somewhere that Driscoll says "Grace [his wife] is my pastor". Which, given a lot of the other things he's said ... including a lot of what is IMO public shaming of his wife ... feels like a big joke.

Accountability to the elder board feels like a joke too because "dissenting" elders are forced out. (I read Jonna Petry's story a while back.)

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CSL1
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quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
To go back a little, I might as well explain my caution on this one.

I have a friend who I will call X. Sadly X's marriage ended some years ago, and its collapse precipitated X's departure from the church X and spouse attended, which was also the place they met. Talking to X would leave one convinced that X's former church was downright cultish and at least partly to blame for the break-up of X's marriage. There are two problems with this. Firstly, X has a tendency to read too much into quite innocent comments/incidents (its one of X's few faults - X is a lovely otherwise). Secondly, I know other people who are or were involved with said church independently of X, who I trust, and I really don't get a remotely cultish vibe at all. Note that I don't think that X is being intentionally dishonest in any way. My guess is that X has been trying to make some sense of a deeply traumatic event, and in doing so has unwittingly constructed a comforting, comprehensible narrative which makes sense of a very complicated, messy situation, but is not entirely accurate.

There are simply so many accounts of abusive practices at MH as directed by MD, they're nigh overwhelming. If one man writes of Pastor X being untoward and abusive, I tend to reserve judgment, but when the accounts are ubiquitous, come from a wide range of people, different ages, different socio-economic classes, and they yet match up in substance, it becomes in my mind extremely unlikely that it's all just a concerted effort to persecute a hapless, innocent pastor.

Plus we have the testimony of Mr. Driscoll himself, the potty mouth, the frequent allusions to violence from the pulpit, e.g., "breaking people's noses", his (rather ridiculous, as it comes from an affluent, pampered, chubby, middle-aged fellow) "gansta" persona, the documentated evidence: loyalty contracts required of members, the unbiblical application of church discipline.

My profession is the law, people have been convicted on far less evidence.

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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by rhflan:
I'm confused that her ex-husband is *still* a member (I assume in good standing) at Mars Hill as he remarried. I would think that Driscoll would believe that he should remain single, and only remarry if he's reconcilled to his first wife, or to someone else after she dies.

Probably because he's male and all their problems were caused by his ex wife who dared to have opinions.
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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by CSL1:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Sorry to double post, but I've found an artilce by Jonna Petry, the wife of a former elder at Mars Hill. It will take about an hour to read, but I think it's worth it:

My Story

The writer doesn't seem to bear any malice, and it seems pretty honest. What it does seem to reveal is more an "abuse of power" by Mark. I'm not very comfortable with the term "spiritual abuse" because it can be applied so easily to anyone who doesn't teach the scriptures the way we think they should be taught.

This is the most compelling story I've yet read about the ugly goings-on at Mars Hill. I've seen similar episodes in like-minded churches, her account rings so true. You're right, she absolutely doesn't sound like she's malicious or disengenuous.
I agree. That had the ring of truth. It suggests that a distressing cultish process has been developing for some time, with a systematic emasculation (interesting word in this context) of such checks and balances as existed earlier on.

One of the inherent dangers in congregational church settings is to discount the vital importance of collegiate eldership as a protection against the dominant charismatic "pied-piper"-type leader. Johnny S was making this point earlier, I see.

Such leaders do not need "yes" men. Unfortunately, too many of them do not see that. Without humility and real accountability, charismatic leaders (both inside and outside churches) can be their own worst enemies as well as a danger to others.

Chorister is right too. Critical awareness is really important. I hope Mark Driscoll has some left. Even a tiny bit might make a difference. It's never too late to turn around. For his sake, and for the thousands caught up with him.

[Putting my Host hat on for a minute. After reviewing this thread on my return from shore leave, I am wondering whether it should really go to Hell as a rant thread. It's by no means all "rant" (as the above link shows) but it is beginning to look as though Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill are becoming another kind of Phelps-watch. I'm going to check that out with other Purg and Hell Hosts. B62, Purg Host]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
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Having heard a lot of hype about Driscoll I watched some of his video and unfortunately read his last book. What shocked me most about the book was how little of the Bible MD admitted he and his wife knew when they started Mars Hill. Rather frightening thought that - especially with how fast the church grew. I find his treatment of his wife and public humiliation of her unconscionable.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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irish_lord99
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quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
I find his treatment of his wife and public humiliation of her unconscionable.

I'm not familiar with that... could you elaborate or provide a source? Not that I'm questioning you, I'm just curious to learn more.

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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

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CSL1
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# 17168

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quote:

Such leaders do not need "yes" men. Unfortunately, too many of them do not see that. Without humility and real accountability, charismatic leaders (both inside and outside churches) can be their own worst enemies as well as a danger to others.

This is why the head pastors of such churches oft surround themselves with such young and new believers as elders. These youthful elders are likely to become arrogant as described in I Pet 3 and circle wagons round the leader if challenged because the leader's the source of their own power. They're also likely to become subservient "Yes men" to the leader, because they don't know much yet and feel off balance managing a church with members decades older than them.

Yes men provide the leader with the perfect mix (lack of challenge to their decisions, bodyguard mentality) for creating a cult.

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CSL1
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# 17168

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quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
I find his treatment of his wife and public humiliation of her unconscionable.

I'm not familiar with that... could you elaborate or provide a source? Not that I'm questioning you, I'm just curious to learn more.
He might be referring to the rather personal descriptions of what a "good" reformed wife does for her husband in bed, going into excruciating detail, e.g., anal, oral, etc., and his propping of his wife up on stage to discuss same as an example to the women of MH. Disclaimer: I have not seen this personally , neither read of it nor seen videos, have only heard second hand.
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Enoch
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I've been tagging along behind this thread, following it with interest, because I'm surprised how many people whose 'from's aren't even in the same continent as this Mr Driscoll and 'his' church who are so aware of him and have such strong opinions about him. How well known is he? I've never heard of him or his church away from the ship. Should I have done? Is it a case of 'where have I been?'. Is he really that well known or significant?

If some of the allegations about him are even partially true, he won't be the first person who started out good, but proved not to have the personal calibre or wisdom to handle the temptations of spiritual authority and the adulation of his own followers. Look at King Saul. Nor sadly, is he likely to be the last.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged



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