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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: What makes atheists doubt their atheism?
Mad Geo

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Reformed

I have 20+ years of theology and Christianity. through University, and beyond. I am reasonably confident I, at minimum, can keep up with your mythology. But then anyone that calls theology equivalent to calculus has a seriously overvalued idea of how concrete theology is.

I can count AND do the "calculus." Problem is, the nature of god "calculus" is based on what? A fiction of a mythology based on lies, and falsified evidence.

Is the nature of god, your version? Or mine? Or Catholics? The Popes? Which Pope? Is it Vishnu? Buddha? The rock under the pond? Which version?

You're trying to nail jello to the wall. You can't tell me about your jello as it slides into a pool on the floor.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
...A.N. Wilson would be another, eh, exception.

Aha! Now we're getting somewhere. [Big Grin]

New Statesman - A N Wison "Why I believe again"

@Mad Geo - You're welcome to call me Mark - It is interesting that you at least acknowledge that you cannot be sure that there are no gods, but you believe it is impossible (at this present time) to have any revelation of these beings, if they exist, yes?

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Unreformed
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Reformed

I have 20+ years of theology and Christianity. through University, and beyond..

That's nice. I drive a Corvette and have a supermodel girlfriend.

(NOTE: The above is written in jest)

[ 16. July 2012, 21:15: Message edited by: Unreformed ]

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

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Mad Geo

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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Mad Geo

Just so you know, I would welcome the certainity that death was the complete and final end. I might even be more ready to commit suicide if you could guarantee that. Unfortunately I have this niggling doubt.

Yes I know I am in the minority, but I think you need to be aware that for some annihilation is wishful thinking.

Jengie

Niggling doubt about what?

It's so funny to me this inherent assumption that ONE religion has to be the right one. What if your niggling doubt is based on the wrong religion?

Do the gods really get pissed and throw you into whatever form of hell ones believes in if one commits suicide?

I personally don't think suicide is a good idea, having considered it strongly, since we only get one trip, but YMMV. I am prepared to do so, under extreme circumstances, but I doubt those will happen any time soon.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Jengie jon

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Just simply that there is life after death. That is all the doubt I need.

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

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Unreformed
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quote:
It's so funny to me this inherent assumption that ONE religion has to be the right one. What if your niggling doubt is based on the wrong religion?
Here's the thing, MattGeo. As a Catholic I'm allowed to believe (and even told to) that all religions, especially but not only pre-Christian ones, have a spark of the divine in them. The logos spermatikos. They get at least part of the way there. Some more than others, but they all do.

You, as an atheist, have to believe that 98%+ people who ever lived are all superstitious deluded morons and you, MadGeo, have it all figured out.

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

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Jengie jon

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Just to add:
It is the fact of existing that seems in many ways too much to bear, to be certain that at some time that would cease, is my idea of bliss. But as long as there is some chance of eternity being for real I have to take my pay my money and take my pick.

Jengie

[ 16. July 2012, 21:23: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

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Mad Geo

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
- It is interesting that you at least acknowledge that you cannot be sure that there are no gods, but you believe it is impossible (at this present time) to have any revelation of these beings, if they exist, yes?

Of course one can't be sure there are no gods. One can't be sure of anything, at its most fundamental level. But I don't go rebelieving in Santa Claus because of that "doubt." I don't fill the doubt with a non-entity. I fill it with "Huh, that's really improbable, like gravity stopping, the sun blowing up in my lifetime, and Faeries in the Garden."

I can't prove a negative. But then I don't make life decisions on the assumption that something IS there that has no evidence whatsoever. Or worse, something that even the believers can't agree on, AT ALL. LOL

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Unreformed
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Someone with theological training at a university is comparing the Christian concept of God to fairies in the garden. Uh-huh.

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

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Mad Geo

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quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
quote:
It's so funny to me this inherent assumption that ONE religion has to be the right one. What if your niggling doubt is based on the wrong religion?
Here's the thing, MattGeo. As a Catholic I'm allowed to believe (and even told to) that all religions, especially but not only pre-Christian ones, have a spark of the divine in them. The logos spermatikos. They get at least part of the way there. Some more than others, but they all do.

You, as an atheist, have to believe that 98%+ people who ever lived are all superstitious deluded morons and you, MadGeo, have it all figured out.

Ah, the Catholic out. Yes, I'm familiar with it.
One religion to rule them all, one religion to bind them. How gracious of you. I'm sure the other religions approve of your magnanimity. Yes, I'm rolling on the floor laughing right now.

As a scientist, I have to know that MOST of all the people that ever lived believed that earth was flat...

Yeah, I'm not gonna join them in that belief either.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Unreformed
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quote:
As a scientist, I have to know that MOST of all the people that ever lived believed that earth was flat...
This is flat-out false. It's always great to watch those who say things like "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" to uncritically swallow modern myths like "most of all the people who ever lived thought the earth was flat".

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

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Squibs
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
[QUOTE]
As a scientist, I have to know that MOST of all the people that ever lived believed that earth was flat...

While I take your point, If you atually think about your statement for a moment I think you will find it doesn't make any sense.
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Mad Geo

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quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
Someone with theological training at a university is comparing the Christian concept of God to fairies in the garden. Uh-huh.

Doubt it if you want. But you do so at your own peril. I'm a huge fan of Bart Ehrman, C.S. Lewis, and certainly the Bible itself. It is a fascinating mythological document.

Us atheists often study religion. Some of us intently. Some of us got blown OUT of the church by that study.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Unreformed
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quote:
Doubt it if you want. But you do so at your own peril. I'm a huge fan of Bart Ehrman, C.S. Lewis
[Killing me] You studied theology at a unviersity and you think the height of scholarship is Bart Ehrman (a textual critic, not a theologian) and C.S. Lewis (a popular writer)? [Killing me] This is "intense study"? Are you a parody?

quote:
and certainly the Bible itself.
And in the original King James English, too!

[Roll Eyes]

[ 16. July 2012, 21:35: Message edited by: Unreformed ]

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
...Or worse, something that even the believers can't agree on, AT ALL. LOL

They are all agreed on something - that God IS - shouldn't that be our starting point?

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Unreformed
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Seriously, MadGeo, do you want to retract your ridiculous statement about "most of the people who ever lived thought the earth was flat"? This is my Christian charity talking. I'll give you time to retract it before you look all that stupid.

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

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Mad Geo

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*Googles flat earth mythology*

Fascinating, see now I learned something from y'all, and I am man enough to admit it. I KNOW, how rare is that?

But the ANALOGY of the flat earth remains, and you people know how to stretch an analogy till it breaks, and miss the point entirely.
Not that I'm surprised.

Insert whatever debunked idea that mankind shared into that point and carry on.

I almost called our Unreformed on the REAL issue, which is that he tried to sneak in an Argumentum ad populum, that 98% of the world believes in Santa Claus, so I should believe in Santa Claus. As stupid as that sounds when I just said it, is as absurd as it sounds to me when he said it.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Unreformed
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quote:
I almost called our Unreformed on the REAL issue, which is that he tried to sneak in an Argumentum ad populum, that 98% of the world believes in Santa Claus, so I should believe in Santa Claus.
[brick wall]

For the umpteenth time, God is not like Santa Claus, or fairies in the bottom of the garden, or a giant teapot, or a flying spaghetti monster, or whatever other tired, inaccurate metaphor you want to use. I'll give you a bit of time to figure out why.

And good on you for retracting the flat earth thing. It's not the only thing you'll learn here, I hope.

[ 16. July 2012, 21:45: Message edited by: Unreformed ]

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

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Mad Geo

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Gotta give me time to type there, buckwheat. I know your anxious to pull out your next ad hominem, but I only type material for you to distort so fast.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Justinian
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quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
I suspected as much when I read HughWillRidmee's non answer to the question. The thread entitled "Can Atheism develop an epistemology to live by?" spun off into something else entirely. This one seems to be disappearing down the same rabbit trail. If we started a third thread on atheism would something similar happen?

It would be nice to see people like HughWillRidmee, The Great Gumby, Justinian, Mad Geo and Crœsos answered the bloody question rather then tell us why they don't believe in God. If the thread was entitled "Why I don't believe in God" then their responses would be relevant. But it's not called that.

So what makes atheists doubt their atheism? I've encountered quite a bit of thought within Christianity on doubt (for example, http://www.rzim.eu/doubt-training-day-oxford-audio). Is there such a response found within atheism? Or are atheists so rational that they don't doubt?

Like MadGeo, this has been asked and answered.
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Do you mean away from positive atheism or to Christianity in specific?

To get me away from atheism would take a miracle. Literally. An act of God. But God won't act. From which I conclude that if there is a God, that God either doesn't want me to believe in its existance or doesn't care. Either way it's not worth bothering with.

I also produced an atheist epistemology in the question about atheist epistemology.

I doubt my atheism sometimes in the direction of panentheism or deism (or occasionally polytheism). But I really can't go in the direction of supposedly omnibenevolent monotheism - an omnimax god collapses in a puff of logic and the question of Theodicy has no good answer.

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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

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Mad Geo

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I didn't use the Spaghetti Monster yet. Don't tempt me.

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
...Or worse, something that even the believers can't agree on, AT ALL. LOL

They are all agreed on something - that God IS - shouldn't that be our starting point?
Actually a very vociferous NO. They do NOT agree on that, or at least 98% of all Christians I talk to (yes, that was for humor).

Let me see if I can find a god that you would NOT agree was "something". Baal perhaps? Some people worship trees? Some people worship gain penises. Are you agreeing they agree on their god and yours? Vice Versa?

I think it materially matters that you would not think their idea of a god, is your idea of a god. That you both believe in gods, seems a rather thin point (if there is one) if theirs is a penis, and yours is a dude that died on a stick.

That a god-spot theoretically exists seems like it seems hardly relevant. My appendix still exists and I don't really want it either.

--------------------
Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Unreformed
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Gotta give me time to type there, buckwheat. I know your anxious to pull out your next ad hominem, but I only type material for you to distort so fast.

Aaaaand he doesn't know what ad hominem means, either. This just doesn't seem to be your day, MadGeo.

I'll be leaving this thread for now, though, so don't worry. Maybe when I come back you'll have finally figured out, after 20 years, one of the most basic concepts of Christianity possible, namely what we mean when we say "God".

I won't hold my breath, though.

BTW, where did you study your theology? First Fundy Bible College?

[ 16. July 2012, 21:52: Message edited by: Unreformed ]

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

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Squibs
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OK, so getting back on track. Are there any other atheists who have doubted? By my count we are up to 1 out of 5.

(I've include Mad Geo even though I couldn't locate the relevant section that dealt with his(?) doubt about atheism.

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Squibs
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Let me see if I can find a god that you would NOT agree was "something". Baal perhaps? Some people worship trees? Some people worship gain penises. Are you agreeing they agree on their god and yours? Vice Versa?

I think it materially matters that you would not think their idea of a god, is your idea of a god. That you both believe in gods, seems a rather thin point (if there is one) if theirs is a penis, and yours is a dude that died on a stick.

Sorry, what are we talking about here? Pantheism? Fertility cults? What? I don't see what your point or how it relates to what was written. I just see the use of cheap debating tactics.

As for the dude that died on a stick. Yes, he did just that.

quote:
Jesus of the Scars

If we have never sought, we seek Thee now;
Thine eyes burn through the dark, our only stars;
We must have sight of thorn-pricks on Thy brow;
We must have Thee, O Jesus of the Scars.

The heavens frighten us; they are too calm;
In all the universe we have no place.
Our wounds are hurting us; where is the balm?
Lord Jesus, by Thy Scars we claim Thy grace.

If when the doors are shut, Thou drawest near,
Only reveal those hands, that side of Thine;
We know today what wounds are; have no fear;
Show us Thy Scars; we know the countersign.

The other gods were strong, but Thou wast weak;
They rode, but Thou didst stumble to a throne;
But to our wounds only God’s wounds can speak,
And not a god has wounds, but Thou alone.

quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
Aaaaand he doesn't know what ad hominem means, either. This just doesn't seem to be your day, MadGeo.

I'll be leaving this thread for now, though, so don't worry. Maybe when I come back you'll have finally figured out, after 20 years, one of the most basic concepts of Christianity possible, namely what we mean when we say "God".

I won't hold my breath, though.

BTW, where did you study your theology? First Fundy Bible College?

Breath in. Exhale. 1 Peter 3 15-16 and all that.

[ 16. July 2012, 22:06: Message edited by: Squibs ]

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Mad Geo

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Reformed:

The reason we use metaphors like Santa Claus, is that we cannot take your "Nature of god" seriously, but just for shits and grins, I'll humor you.

Here's the "nature of God" I remember...

God is all powerful, all loving, all knowing. God remembers the sparrows count and the hairs on our heads. Jesus died for our sins, of a virgin, healed everybody, never got mad except in that Temple scene which was TOTALLY justified, he was man yet god, raised the dead, died on a friday, raised on a sunday, chatted with his peeps, went to heaven and will return for the True Believers.
God loves us SO much that he killed everyone on earth once because while he loves us, he hates the hell out of sinners, which is you know, everybody but Jonah and his peeps.
This guy Paul had a special corner on Jesus message, and brought the Message to the Heathens. Didn't need to have a certain kind of foreskin to join the club anymore. Women were okay in a leadership position, oh WAIT, yes that's right god changed his mind on that whole mess. Certain sects think that God will close the door on the heathens and Big Stuff will happen right before he comes back. Others think theyre gonna be Raptured. Etc. etc.

Did I get most of that right? Maybe I should just shorten it down to "Jesus Loves me this I know"? Is THAT the "Nature of God", or do you want to enlighten me with some more of the tons of pucky I was fed as a child through university.

I'm ALL ears, what, oh WISE ONE, did I miss, in my 40+ years of thinking about it? I'm SURE I must be deluded.

Oh wait, no. I didn't miss anything. LOL

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Justinian
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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
So evil doesn't actually exist? Is that it? People only destroy other people's lives because they feel unloved, and once they come into the experience of ultimate love they will, of course, be the lovely people they really were in their "heart of hearts"?

Oh, evil exists. It would take a near-perfect love to get through to someone like Adolf Hitler. Interesting tha tno one is capable of that in your theology...

quote:
No wonder the atheistic influenced society we live in treats criminals with kid gloves. They're such poor misunderstood darlings, aren't they?
This athestic society treats criminals like human beings because we do not have the arrogance to suppose we are necessarily right. We do not hide behind a supposedly infalliable morality.

We also look at the standard theories of punishment and note that retribution achieves nothing other than the coarsening of the soul that torture inflicts on the torturer, and that deterrance often doesn't work unless the crime was one calculated out (financial crimes always need to face a punishment significantly greater than the money stolen).

quote:
Good for you for attempting a bit of biblical exegesis. Pity though that you didn't bother to think about the method of communication employed in Revelation 14. It's full of symbolism, in case you hadn't noticed.
I had. But you have to deny the literal and plain meaning of the text and the way Christianity has treated the concept of hell for a long long time to twist the text into your desired reading. Not that I blame you - the historical Christian tradition and the plain meaning of the text shows God for a monster.

quote:
So does it not seem rather strange that the eternal victim of evil should also be the God who "tortures" people?
When you try to cast the most powerful being possible in the role of victim rather than perpetrator you have a problem. The eternal victims of evil are those condemned by God to Hell.

quote:
I suppose someone with a huge chip on his shoulder (and who clearly has a desperate personal need to build a case against God) might argue that this is God's "revenge" for the cross.
Nothing of the sort. God was a sadistic monster in the old testament. He quite literally mind controlled Pharaoh to give himself an excuse to torture the Egyptians. Hell is because the God presented in the bible is petty and graceless, and what grace he has normally comes from associating with humans.

quote:
A bit of sensible and consistent exegesis reveals that my interpretation is correct. The wicked are tortured by their own arrogance, not by any sadism on God's part.
Where "A bit of sensible and consistent exegesis" means twisting the literal words on the page to deny that it is unambiguously and directly ascribed to the wrath of God, and perverting the very notion of the term victim so that the All-Highest can be victimised by those with no power to stand against him.

Next you'll be supporting the Wall-Mart managers who say their minimum wage staff are overpaid and they are underpaid.

quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
For the umpteenth time, God is not like Santa Claus, or fairies in the bottom of the garden, or a giant teapot, or a flying spaghetti monster, or whatever other tired, inaccurate metaphor you want to use. I'll give you a bit of time to figure out why.

That all the ones listed can exist but don't rather than are logically impossible?

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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

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Mad Geo

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LOL! He forgets his earlier ad hominem, and then drops another one. Priceless.

quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Let me see if I can find a god that you would NOT agree was "something". Baal perhaps? Some people worship trees? Some people worship gain penises. Are you agreeing they agree on their god and yours? Vice Versa?

I think it materially matters that you would not think their idea of a god, is your idea of a god. That you both believe in gods, seems a rather thin point (if there is one) if theirs is a penis, and yours is a dude that died on a stick.

Sorry, what are we talking about here? Pantheism? Fertility cults? What? I don't see what your point or how it relates to what was written. I just see the use of cheap debating tactics.

As for the dude that died on a stick. Yes, he did just that.


No cheap debate tactics intended, sincerely.

Someone Said:

"They are all agreed on something - that God IS - shouldn't that be our starting point?"

I'm saying, I don't think that people actually believe that "God is" is universal. They may think that we all believe in gods, but the nature of those gods are SO different, so dynamic, that to say "God is" is almost absurd. One man's god on a stick is another mans Penis god. They hardly seem equivalent.

That they also HAVE that massive disparity of "gods" says something about the initial point.

My thought is, "Yeah, but there are SO many gods that almost no on wants!"

That a penis god exists is NOT a good commentary on gods. It's actually a pretty big downer.

[ 16. July 2012, 22:24: Message edited by: Mad Geo ]

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Rosina
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
[QUOTE]

I can't prove a negative. But then I don't make life decisions on the assumption that something IS there that has no evidence whatsoever. Or worse, something that even the believers can't agree on, AT ALL. LOL

There is plenty of evidence for God MadGeo The reality of God is not something "believers can't agree on" but something that is experienced.

There is a way, in and by which, God is proved to exist. And much more than this, for in and by this way, the promise of God is fulfilled with all who enter into and follow this way.

WRT "death" - the physical body is not life in its entirety.

What do you think the soul of man is?

Can you conceive of the reality of ongoing life outside the physical body?

It seems you believe - if there is no ongoing life, there can be no God.

[Frown]

I begin to sense a bit of antagonism from unreformed and just wanted to add - it takes courage to question doctines and teachings (often set hard as stone) and it is good to let the extraneous fall off. But it seems you have turned to unbelief, rather that being left with something you can trust to begin with again.

My thought FWIW is never believe a lie. If it doesn't make sense, don't pretend.

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"Imagine." If you can imagine, you can dream, and if you can dream, you can hope and if you have hope, you may seek and if you seek; you will find.

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Mad Geo

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quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
BTW, where did you study your theology? First Fundy Bible College?

Wow. I see how far you've come with that:

quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
As a Catholic I'm allowed to believe (and even told to) that all religions, especially but not only pre-Christian ones, have a spark of the divine in them.

[Killing me]

You may want to check for your ecumenism. It seems to have fallen OFF. Not that I give a crap. I think all Christianity is nuts in some way. I even throw your tribe in the bath, although my good friend the Catholic priest sure represents his religion better than yours.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Sir Pellinore
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Good to know you're still alive and kicking, Mad Geo. Kicking, kicking ...

[Big Grin]

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Well...

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Mad Geo

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Rosina:

There is no "evidence" for gods. There is belief, yes. Evidence, no. It says so right in the Book:

"Blessed are those that have not seen, and still believe", right? That was the Big Guys words, right?

I think the "soul" is a biological computer. Simple as that. Evolved from other bio-computers. The "Soul" is an idea with no evidence as well. One thing I admire about the Catholics religion is that they clearly draw lines that science answers things about the natural world, but point out science can't answer things about the soul. I admire their ability to compartmentalize like that. Genius really.

Of course, I think its rubbish. It's like they said Science answers things about nature, but not about astrology. Or, "Science answers things about nature, but not ghosts or faeries" Of COURSE science won't answer things about the soul. There's no evidence of the soul to answer.

I think this is our one pass. Just like any other animal. It is a trying idea at first, but one I've gotten past. Kinda like the idea of hell.

It makes me appreciate this life more fully. Makes me think about what I want to consider important. Hell clearly does that for other people.

When I was a Christian, I worried about being good enough. I'm a reasonably good person, and I always sweated it, despite "Righteousness by faith" etc. The subtext was "Stay good, or god'll throw you in the pit" Not very pleasant.

I'm just being honest. If someone wants to mock it, well, knock themselves out. They are accountable for their inhumanity, me for mine.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Mad Geo

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Very alive Sir P. Very alive. Good to see y'all. [Biased]

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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HughWillRidmee
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quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
I suspected as much when I read HughWillRidmee's non answer to the question. The thread entitled "Can Atheism develop an epistemology to live by?" spun off into something else entirely. This one seems to be disappearing down the same rabbit trail. If we started a third thread on atheism would something similar happen?

It would be nice to see people like HughWillRidmee, The Great Gumby, Justinian, Mad Geo and Crœsos answered the bloody question rather then tell us why they don't believe in God. If the thread was entitled "Why I don't believe in God" then their responses would be relevant. But it's not called that.

So what makes atheists doubt their atheism? I've encountered quite a bit of thought within Christianity on doubt (for example, http://www.rzim.eu/doubt-training-day-oxford-audio). Is there such a response found within atheism? Or are atheists so rational that they don't doubt?


Since input was requested there were, for me, only two responses available.

1 – ignore it and risk the primary-school-playground-honed suggestion that the question was “uncomfortable or unthinkable” or

2 – respond by explaining why a reply to the question as posed is not possible. – to that end - for me, the question does not make sense. I don’t think my atheism counts as a conviction, it’s just the inevitable result of the way I look at life, the universe and everything etc....

To clarify – I don’t know what would make me doubt my atheism – but it would, as a bare minimum, have to involve some irrefutable, personal and otherwise inexplicable evidence that a god or gods existed. No such event has occurred and I don’t expect that it will.

quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:....... it seem to me that at least some of the Christians here think that doubt is a reasonable position for anyone to take given the correct circumstances. After all, you only doubt that which you already believe. And this is why there is an assumption that doubt applies to atheists as well.

so because some Christians think that doubt is a reasonable position (in whatever constitutes “ the correct circumstances)”

a) It is,
b) Atheists are assumed to doubt and
c) Some who profess Christianity are entitled to throw their toys out of the pram because the atheists aren’t playing by the christian's rules.

You provide your own answer “you only doubt that which you already believe” . Atheism is an absence of belief – therefore, by your own argument, we are unable to doubt our atheism and your assumption is proven invalid.

Whilst on the subject of allegations of not answering questions – have I missed your replies Unreformed?
In response to your Hugh, even if you don't buy into Christianity, why not deism? You can logically get to deism without relying on special revelation or prophets or anything else. If Christianity was proved to be 100% wrong tomorrow it's probably what I'd adopt

I queried

1 - How do you think that I could logically get to deism?

2 - How do you envisage your Christianity might be proven 100% wrong?

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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)

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Unreformed
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
BTW, where did you study your theology? First Fundy Bible College?

Wow. I see how far you've come with that:

quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
As a Catholic I'm allowed to believe (and even told to) that all religions, especially but not only pre-Christian ones, have a spark of the divine in them.

[Killing me]

You may want to check for your ecumenism. It seems to have fallen OFF. Not that I give a crap. I think all Christianity is nuts in some way. I even throw your tribe in the bath, although my good friend the Catholic priest sure represents his religion better than yours.

You can share in what is true while still pointing out what is false. American-style protestant fundamentalism has a lot wrong with it, not the least of which is habituating people to think in a wooden, literal, parochial, black-and-white manner, which its ex-adherents find very difficult to drop even when they don't believe anymore.

Oh, and you still haven't even gotten close to the nature of God. I don't care about the Bible or the resurrection at this point, MadGeo, it won't do any good to talk about that when we're not even agreeing on first principles. Those need to be established before we go any further.

When it comes to other religions, it isn't true/false. It's varying degrees of truth. No religion is completely wrong. Yes, even Scientology.

Let's try again. What is God?

[ 16. July 2012, 23:33: Message edited by: Unreformed ]

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

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quetzalcoatl
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I don't actually assume that atheists have doubts, nor do I think they ought to, but I've been surprised at how little this is talked about. I think doubt is talked a lot about by theists, and that includes Christians. Indeed, you hear the idea that doubt is essential or not to doubt is immature, and so on.

So why are atheists' doubts aired so little? Perhaps most of them just don't have them. It is striking though how questions like this often seem to get inverted - let's talk about why believing in God is dumb - ah, that's better.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Unreformed
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quote:
1 - How do you think that I could logically get to deism?
Start here.

quote:
2 - How do you envisage your Christianity might be proven 100% wrong?
One-hundred percent wrong? Not trying to be a smartass here, but a full bone box with "Jesus of Nazareth, Son of Mary" written on it in Hebrew.

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

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Mad Geo

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Undeformed

Yeah, I address your point in language you understand, and you move the goalpost to suit YOUR religion. So typical. You can't even be consistent with ecumenicism, why am I not surprised?

Even I, a staunch raving atheist that actually accommodates some religions, can see that Scientology was created out of the netherparts of a science fiction writer, likely as a brilliant tax dodge, and even makes Southern Baptists look like Truth by any comparison. They are, in fact, completely wrong. Much of their religion CAN be invalidated (or at least what I know of it) as compared to Catholicism (for example). I seriously think that anyone that knows the history of Scientology and believes it, is a certified idiot. I won't necessarily say that about other religions.

If you think Scientology ins't "completely wrong" then YOU are wrong. End of debate. You've stretched your veracity till it broke.

Anyway, do carry on without me. I'm interested more in what the others have to say anyway.

--------------------
Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Amika
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There is nothing that makes me doubt my atheism. I simply cannot believe in any religion (or other form of belief). It's not particularly fun being an atheist but for me it's not a matter of choice. I was brought up surrounded by Christianity and stopped believing unprompted by anyone or any circumstances as a young child. Since then, despite a lifelong interest in Christianity, there has never been anything I've seen, heard, read or experienced that has led me to doubt my lack of belief.
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Unreformed
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quote:
Even I, a staunch raving atheist that actually accommodates some religions, can see that Scientology was created out of the netherparts of a science fiction writer, likely as a brilliant tax dodge, and even makes Southern Baptists look like Truth by any comparison.
I completely agree with this.

I still think they've got one thing right. It probably by mistake, but they did. Just one.

Can you guess what that is?

Even they say humans are fallen, and in need of some kind of healing. The Word in seed form managed to find its way even into an obviously fraudulent religion. Probably ass-backwards, but it did.

[ 16. July 2012, 23:54: Message edited by: Unreformed ]

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

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Mad Geo

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Interesting, Amika. I have a friend that had a similar experience to yours. He's more rabid than I.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Amika:
There is nothing that makes me doubt my atheism. I simply cannot believe in any religion (or other form of belief). It's not particularly fun being an atheist but for me it's not a matter of choice. I was brought up surrounded by Christianity and stopped believing unprompted by anyone or any circumstances as a young child. Since then, despite a lifelong interest in Christianity, there has never been anything I've seen, heard, read or experienced that has led me to doubt my lack of belief.

Maybe then, you are typical. I remember when the Dawkins forum did a poll several years ago, and they had a scale from 0-7, where 7 indicated 'absolutely no doubts about my atheism', and about 25% of atheists who responded put a 7, which seemed rather surprising at the time. But I think a lot put 6.9, as a kind of logical possibility that there could be God. So I suppose this is rather a nominal doubt!

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kankucho
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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian
If the Creator didn't want there to be a Hell, God wouldn't have created one. That God then gets to pretend he's being merciful by offering some people a way out of hellis the logic of the abuser "You shouldn't have made me hit you."

Ultimately only one person created Hell - and that is God. Only one person condemns people to Hell and that is God.

Crap.

God didn't create hell. The God of everlasting love is hell. He is hell to those who have freely and persistently chosen to hate him. He does not hate them. In fact, the more he loves them, the more they are tormented. That is why it says that "our God IS a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29).

You stated on another thread:

quote:
The God of the NT is far more distant, condemning people to be thrown into a lake of fire en masse without accepting arguments.
Who said that he does not accept arguments? Let's suppose a particular person comes before God after dying, and he presents all his arguments in his defence. Let's suppose God accepts all his arguments: "You've put a good case. I respect that. I do not condemn you. Welcome into my presence of everlasting love".

So the bloke is eternally exposed to the wonderful and glorious love of God. God has done nothing evil to him at all. But there's a problem. This person hates the love of God. Behind all his arguments there is an evil heart that is full of arrogance and conceit. He looks down on others. He despises the weak. He has contempt for anyone who doesn't see his point of view. What do you think his experience of the eternal love of God will be? Bliss or hell?

I suggest the latter.

Why does it say in Revelation 14:10 that the wicked are tormented "in the presence of the Lamb", which is a clear reference to Jesus Christ crucified (see Revelation 5:6)? The symbol of the lamb is significant. A lamb is the most docile of creatures, and what could be more "harmless" than a slaughtered lamb? The God who presides over the experience of those who are wilfully evil is the God who is the ultimate victim. This the very opposite of a sadistic torturer.

This biblical evidence proves that your analysis of hell is a straw man.

So carry on with your "dirty secret" conspiracy theory. AFAIAC it's BS.

That may be an effective stick to poke at someone who, out of anger for something s/he imagines god to have done, professes not to believe in him, as if as an impotent act of vengeance. But it is also an entirely subjective response from someone who does imagine him to exist, and so also imagines that this 'hating the love of god' taunt has a basis in reality. However, the topic under discussion is atheists, not anti-theists. An atheist does not hate the love of god, any more than s/he hates the smell of unicorn poop.

[ 17. July 2012, 00:51: Message edited by: kankucho ]

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HughWillRidmee
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Originally posted by Unreformed:
quote:
I still think they've got one thing right. It probably by mistake, but they did. Just one.

Can you guess what that is?

Even they say humans are fallen, and in need of some kind of healing. The Word in seed form managed to find its way even into an obviously fraudulent religion. Probably ass-backwards, but it did.

No sir - one of the first rules of selling is that there has to be a need before it can be fulfilled, another is that, where no need exists, invent one, convince the target of the validity of that need and then sell the solution you already have.
Elron simply cottoned on to the despair/self-loathing/feelings of inadequacy that some people sometimes have, informed them of their (fulfillable) need by "auditing" them, reinforced the need by simple "tech" and got them hooked. I've seen similarly duped people wallowing in their (imagined) abject uselessness and "jumping for jesus" in a CofE church service.
Just because you can convince some people that they are "fallen" does not mean they are, or that they need any healing other than support to (re)discover their human worth.

How do you envisage your Christianity might be proven 100% wrong?
quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
One-hundred percent wrong? Not trying to be a smartass here, but a full bone box with "Jesus of Nazareth, Son of Mary" written on it in Hebrew.
I fully accept that you’re not being a smartass(sic) - but how would you know that the bones were those of your religion’s lynch-pin? You would have no more reliable grounds for terminating your belief than you currently have for continuing it

How do you think that I could logically get to deism?
quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
Start here.
Objection 1. It seems that the existence of God is self-evident. Now those things are said to be self-evident to us the knowledge of which is naturally implanted in us, as we can see in regard to first principles. But as Damascene says (De Fide Orth. i, 1,3), "the knowledge of God is naturally implanted in all." Therefore the existence of God is self-evident.
Wrong – no child is born believing in a deity – atheism is the natural state until disturbed by teaching/culture/threats etc.
Objection 2. .... Therefore, since as soon as the word "God" is understood it exists mentally, it also follows that it exists actually. Therefore the proposition "God exists" is self-evident
Rubbish – I understand the words “Narnia” and “warp-drive” but neither “Narnia” nor “warp-drive” exists.

I could go on but since it's late and I notice that the arguments start to involve the bible as a valid source I can’t see much point.

If you think any point needs my attention let me know and I'll get back to you



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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)

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kankucho
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quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
You, as an atheist, have to believe that 98%+ people who ever lived are all superstitious deluded morons ...

Atheists don't actually have a Pope-equivalent telling them what they may and may not believe, whatever satirical snortings may be currently flying around about Richard Dawkins. Atheists choose to not imagine that existence is the creation and/or domain of a supernatural deity. No opinions on what others imagine, nor the effect of that on their intellect, is stipulated in the definition of atheist.

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Unreformed
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I apologize HughWillRideMe, you're not reading Aquinas correctly but it's my fault for not telling you how to. It's a very different style of argumentation than what we're used to. Here's a good instruction manual.

The point I was making about the bone box (a central part of 1st Century Jewish burial, btw) is that the resurrection is the cornerstone of the Christian faith. Disprove, and it collapses. In which case I'd become an ethical deist, perhaps with Jewish tendencies.

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

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Unreformed
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quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
You, as an atheist, have to believe that 98%+ people who ever lived are all superstitious deluded morons ...

Atheists don't actually have a Pope-equivalent telling them what they may and may not believe, whatever satirical snortings may be currently flying around about Richard Dawkins. Atheists choose to not imagine that existence is the creation and/or domain of a supernatural deity. No opinions on what others imagine, nor the effect of that on their intellect, is stipulated in the definition of atheist.
You're absolutely right, Kanchuko. I should have said anti-theist, or Internet Atheist (not the same thing as an atheist on the internet, e.g. HughWillRideMe doesn't seem to be an Internet Atheist). The kind that holds active, seething contempt for religions rather than just not believing in them, or asking honest questions about them.

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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Re the OP,
we might fruitfully ask if atheists believe in things the same way the religious believe in things. I think there is significant room to doubt that the belief in religious tenets can be equated with the disbelief that atheists have in them, and, further that the things atheists believe in (usually some scientifical type of formulation) are believed in the same way religious believers believe in their ideas.

Religious belief seems often based on a personal experience of something, convincing argument, appeal to cultural traditions and continuity, and some sort of emotion. Non-belief seems based on asking religion to submit to scientific standards of proof, and won't accept non-scientific proofs, full stop. Atheists may interpret some of the same experiences that religious believers do entirely differently, e.g., whereas I might take an aesthetic experience of music, prayer and liturgy as indicating a divine connection, the atheist may take it as merely a situational emotional experience generated by the constellation of thoughts and feelings, discounting other frames of experience.

I interact with many self-labelled atheists and religious people on a daily basis. My general take is that many atheists are 'pre-religious', and have never has proper opportunity to understand 'life, the universe and everything' from a different vantage point, and have decided that religion is to be ridiculed. I hear criticism of art and poetry almost on the same level from them.

It is commentary on the woeful state of education that people can graduate with high school diplomas, and university degrees, with little more than a Dawkins-like, 10 year old's understanding of religion -- well comparable to the illiteracy of fundamentalists and literalists in terms of any form of actual knowledge of what they criticise and defend.

[ 17. July 2012, 01:37: Message edited by: no_prophet ]

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Beenster
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I believe I'm an atheist which probably is a strange thing to say in itself. And I'm rather later into this discussion than I probably would want to be given the various directions that it has gone.

But : the q in the title. What makes me doubt my atheism? Without wishing to sound super creepy, the most unsettling thing for my status quo is other people. Wild acts of kindness or thoughtful wisdom from Christians make me think that perhaps I am missing something. There is something compelling in what they have, the philosphy, the mindset. And I want that. And, then I remember how it didn't work for me in my Christian times and in my currentness, I think - no. I can't go back. And whilst never say never, I would wager that I will never go back to any form of theism, I'm toooooo bruised.

But those moments exist.

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George Spigot

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No I can't think of any time I've had doubts. It's not easy to expand on that answer without ....well talking about why I don't believe in God. Which brings complaints of being off on a tangent so I'll try to avoid doing that.

Maybe one of the reasons atheists aren't doubting is because we seem to have no problem saying I don't know. A thiest might have come to believe in God because otherwise where did the universe come from. Or they might start by believing in God then move on to the question of the universe and say ah of course God made it. Or they might reject evey other scientic theory and say God is the only explanation left. An atheist would wonder where the universe came from and start with I don't know. And if non of the current theory's seem to make sense they would go back to I don't know.

Hope there isn't too much of a tangent in my answer but just answering the OP with "no" seems a bit boring and uninformative.

--------------------
C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Maybe one of the reasons atheists aren't doubting is because we seem to have no problem saying I don't know. A thiest might have come to believe in God because otherwise where did the universe come from. Or they might start by believing in God then move on to the question of the universe and say ah of course God made it. Or they might reject evey other scientic theory and say God is the only explanation left. An atheist would wonder where the universe came from and start with I don't know. And if non of the current theory's seem to make sense they would go back to I don't know.

Thanks George - I can't help thinking that if one comes to the conclusion that they don't know how the universe came into being, then might not that person also have to say that there is at least a possibility that God might have had something to do with it all?

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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