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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Circumcision vs FGM - the ethics?
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Can things go wrong? Obviously, which is why you choose your doctor/mohel very very carefully. But it's not rocket surgery. (sorry, had to use that line once in my life)
Now somebody flame me for commenting on a subject I do not possess the anatomy for.
No, I'll flame you for screwing up a stock phrase and turning it into a malapropism. It's rocket science, not rocket surgery.
Thank you for stating the obvious. It was a joke, dude.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I think that, if we try really hard, we can come up with a joke about circumcision and "Lamb Chopped." ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Choose doctor carefully??? What planet did you come from?
The North American custom is to stick the infant's penis in a clamp. The clamp is to make the surgery as simple. That's why circumcision is the most common cosmetic surgery in North America.
That's what you get when you have a practice in search of a reason.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I think that, if we try really hard, we can come up with a joke about circumcision and "Lamb Chopped."
That had occurred to me as well. Maybe it's a reference to the circumcision of Our Lord.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
No, I'll flame you for screwing up a stock phrase and turning it into a malapropism. It's rocket science, not rocket surgery.
It's a joke SPK. A deliberate mis-malapropism. And not too baggily shabby in my onion, but your my age may vary. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
My grandson had to be circumcised at age 4 for medical reasons and it turned out to be a very traumatic experience for him and his family. My daughter vowed that should she have another baby boy she would have him circumcised in infancy rather than put another little boy through that again. My grandson is fine now and there were no complications from the procedure, but he would have had severe complications from not undergoing the operation (which was done under a general anaesthetic)
I agree with the comments about children having ears pierced which I consider to be an act of child abuse.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
AIUI, the circumcision of a Jewish boy when he is eight days old makes him part of the Jewish community. If he is not circumcised then, he never totally belongs. (The Bible makes an exception for boys born into families where hemophilia is present.)
The Bible can't possibly make an exception for boys born into families where hemophilia is present, because hemophilia didn't exist before the 19th century.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Am I missing a joke? It has been known since at least the 10th century.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I just wish there were some men on the Ship who were circumcised as a babies for religious reasons who could tell how they feel about it now. Would a Jewish male feel uncomfortably outside the tribe if his parents hadn't been allowed to have the traditional procedure?
I bet there are some Jewish blogs and message boards lit up on this issue right now.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
My bad. I was a victim of bad information.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
However, in many parts of the US, if you have a hospital birth you WILL have to choose, one way or the other. You will be asked, and an answer will be expected. [/QB]
You see to a Brit like me that just seems bizarre, that an elective, cosmetic procedure should be offered as routine to newborns. I don't even know how you would go about getting this done to a newborn in the UK. Presumably you would have to pay for it privately as I'm sure the NHS would not pay for it. It certainly was never mentioned when my son was born. It sounds like it is just an embedded cultural practice in the US.
I accept that many men who are circumcised have no problem with it, that's good. But does that mean it should continue to be done willy-nilly without questioning whether it is actually a good, necessary and appropriate thing? Yes, I can accept that appropriate might well cover a religious requirement but otherwise to have it as a norm to lop off a piece of a child's body seems, as someone above said, "odd".
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
Ritual circumcision is still very common in most African societies although this is changing with urbanisation.
Here in the Western and Eastern Cape, the circumcision of adolescent boys is known as the abaqwethu, marking the transition to manhood. The boys and the healers go into the bush for several weeks in seclusion and build a lodge, daub their faces and bodies in white clay, undergo a number of initiation practices and rites of passage.
There is some research that shows men who are circumcised may be at less risk for contracting HIV, so the government has begun supporting traditional circumcision as a health-enhancing practice. There are health risks, so the skills of the ingcibi or traditional healer carrying out the circumcision are key to healing without infection or complications. Tackling the health issue is made more difficult because the topic of abaqwethu is taboo and may not be mentioned in public -- hence none of the churches address it except in the vaguest and most general terms. I once sat through a long sermon on ubudodo or 'manhood' and the importance of using the right knife to skin a buck without realising the preacher was trying to talk about circumcision!
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angel Wrestler:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
There can be a comparison, namely, the lack of choice. If people want to mutilate their genitals, fine, but let them chose.
The same argument could be made about infant baptism, though baptism doesn't make a physical scar.
This keeps comming up doesn't it? The fact that baptism does not cause any undoable, physical change, does not remove bits of the baby, makes the comparison useless.
If an earlobe or the tip of the babies finger were removed during baptism then the comparison would hold but it doesn't.
The people arguing against are saying, you shouldn't cut bits off babies not you shouldn't hold a ceremony where you splash water and welcome a baby to your church.
The only contension are the speciffic welcoming ceremony's that do involve cutting off bits.
So I believe the people who think we are arguing for baptism to be banned are jumping at shadows.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
Out of interest I checked the UK's NHS position on circumcision here and it seems that the majority of Primary Care Trusts (PCTs) do not fund it but in some areas they do as they take "decisions based on priorities that relate to its own local population".
But the standard NHS position quote here seems to be that "Most healthcare professionals maintain that the potential benefits of circumcision are not strong enough to justify routine childhood circumcision."
However a refusal to publically fund a procedure is very different from an active decision to ban it as in the German situation.
[ 14. July 2012, 09:17: Message edited by: Lucia ]
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
When I first saw this heading, I couldn't guess what FGM stood for, and the only thing I could think of was 'Circumcision vs Full Gospel Ministry'!
I don't all that often finding myself agreeing with Giles Fraser, either in print or on R4, but there's a good short piece by him here .
I entirely agree with him that, although this case was about a Moslem, German law deciding against 'so central an aspect of Jewish identity is surely as incendiary as it gets'.
Slightly interesting aside. Do transatlantic shipmates pick up Lucia's pun in "continue to be done willy-nilly?" In the same territory, I have to admit Mary LA's 'ubudodo' is a great euphemism. Would you object if I took it up?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Slightly interesting aside. Do transatlantic shipmates pick up Lucia's pun in "continue to be done willy-nilly?" In the same territory, I have to admit Mary LA's 'ubudodo' is a great euphemism. Would you object if I took it up?
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I just wish there were some men on the Ship who were circumcised as a babies for religious reasons who could tell how they feel about it now. Would a Jewish male feel uncomfortably outside the tribe if his parents hadn't been allowed to have the traditional procedure?
I bet there are some Jewish blogs and message boards lit up on this issue right now.
The example of the man I know for whom the mutilation of his genitals is still a traumatic act is Jewish.
Otherwise, GS is spot on. It's obvious that baptism is reversible and doesn't involve chopping parts of the body off.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
In the days of the Roman Empire, Roman men exercised naked, so it was quite obvious if you were circumcised or not. I'm sure I've read somewhere that Jews who wanted to assimilate with Roman culture had an operation to reverse circumcision. That has always sounded bizarre to me, but might be relevant to this discussion. Is such a procedure possible?
On a personal note I am a non-Jewish Brit who was circumcised at birth. (I was born in an Arab country, and the argument was that it prevented sand getting stuck in the foreskin - Ouch!) Until this thread I've never ever thought of myself as "mutilated" in any way, and am considering getting offended if only I could summon up the energy. To be blunt, I really like my cock just as it is, and wouldn't want it any other way.
(And finally - George Spigot, what does your sig mean? I've Googled "CS Lewis' Head" and got nothing useful. ![[Confused]](confused.gif) )
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Thanks for that GS. Disagree with you about That Hideous Strength - but that would definitely be a tangent on this thread!
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
[qb]
Slightly interesting aside. Do transatlantic shipmates pick up Lucia's pun in "continue to be done willy-nilly?" In the same territory, I have to admit Mary LA's 'ubudodo' is a great euphemism. Would you object if I took it up?
Enoch, it has a certain ring, doesn't it?
I suspect adult male circumcision may cease to be practised as time goes on and once the Aids plague has finally been overcome. But in isiXhosa, it would be an appalling breach of manners for a man not to know when and where he lost his foreskin. Those bits and pieces matter.
Every conversation in isiXhosa between strangers who have just met begins with the question Iphi inkaba yakho? or 'Where is your umbilical cord buried?' The umbilical cord and afterbirth are always buried to avoid sorcery but also to ensure that the child will know where she or he comes from, tribal lineage, place of birth, connection to the ancestors. If you don't know where your mother's family buried your umbilical cord or when you were circumcised, you have lost your footing in the world.
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
AIUI, the circumcision of a Jewish boy when he is eight days old makes him part of the Jewish community. If he is not circumcised then, he never totally belongs. (The Bible makes an exception for boys born into families where hemophilia is present.)
The Bible can't possibly make an exception for boys born into families where hemophilia is present, because hemophilia didn't exist before the 19th century.
I can't find the Bible passage but I've seen it. Of course it doesn't use the word 'hemophilia', but it refers to families where bleeding problems occur. It's somewhere in the Torah.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
In the days of the Roman Empire, Roman men exercised naked, so it was quite obvious if you were circumcised or not. I'm sure I've read somewhere that Jews who wanted to assimilate with Roman culture had an operation to reverse circumcision. That has always sounded bizarre to me, but might be relevant to this discussion. Is such a procedure possible? *snip*
It was the Greeks who exercised thus and indeed the Olympics would be financially crippled by the lack of sponsorship and national emblems if the athletes performed their feats in the buff, as tradition required (demands to this day?). There is lots of pottery to substantiate this. Diasporic and Alexandrine Jews who wanted to blend in, as it were, could not do so without the locker-room comments of their Hellenic buddies. Apparently the most favoured approach to prepucile assimilation was to stretch and elongate the remaining traces of the foreskin, when that was possible. Apparently (and I discourage shipmates from googling) it is one of the restorationist techniques used today.
A now-demure and respectable Vancouver Island GP, when a student at UBC would frequent Wreck Beach on a spare afternoon to work on her tan with her medical buddies and, as a sport, would count the (relatively fewer in North America) foreskins and the winner would not have to pay for her drinks at their student dinner that evening. I do not know if this slightly unwholesome form of gambling still continues.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
*snip*
Ouch. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
*snip*
Ouch.
Sorry. I couldn't resist.
Apropos the abovementioned GP, I was present when she and two other Vancouver Island doctors discussed circumcision, as they were all now in family practice. Two were strongly for (and I learned more about certain kinds of cancer than I really wanted to know, and idly nibbled on some very nice Saltspring Island montana cheese hoping that the conversation would soon take another turn) while third was against any interventional surgery, however minor, which was not really needed. None of my medical friends, then or more recently, has raised the consideration of choice of the recipient of the procedure. I think it would be safe to say that none of them would have equated it with FGM.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Thank you Tortuf. Here is a link on the dangers of Female Genital Mutilation. I linked a Google search so to show the plethora of credible information.
While there is adequate room for debate as to the necessity or ethics of circumcision, there is nothing credible about comparing it to Female Genital Mutilation.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
However, in many parts of the US, if you have a hospital birth you WILL have to choose, one way or the other. You will be asked, and an answer will be expected.
You see to a Brit like me that just seems bizarre, that an elective, cosmetic procedure should be offered as routine to newborns. I don't even know how you would go about getting this done to a newborn in the UK. Presumably you would have to pay for it privately as I'm sure the NHS would not pay for it. It certainly was never mentioned when my son was born. It sounds like it is just an embedded cultural practice in the US. [/QB]
Yes, that is very much the case. Beginning to change in parts of the US for all the reasons mentioned here, but in most places still the norm. The (obviously debatable) medical arguments that have been referenced are the justification. For those who have insurance or Medicaid, it is usually covered.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
So I'd be fascinated to know why in Jewish culture circumcisions have to be done on babies and can't wait until consent is an option.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
circumcised guys DO look better tho
Strongly disagree. We men are not supposed to admit to peeping in the locker room but i always think that foreskins are more aesthetically pleasing, rounding it off, so to speak. Those of us who still have our equipment intact can 'present' it natural or 'rolled up. We have the choice.
Back to the substantive issue: I think male circumcision is barbaric. However, I also know that Jews and Muslims have felt beleaguered for centuries and that any decree to forbid circumcision will be heard as persecution and bigotry so we best leave well alone.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
Tangential, but I have at least one friend who probably appreciates having been circumcised. He converted to Judaism, but since he had already been circumcised as an infant, a symbolic drawing of blood through a pinprick [no pun intended] was all that was required. The alternative would have been much more traumatic (though I can see feeling quite uncomfortable having the rabbi perform just the pinprick).
The prevalence of circumcision in the US can be noted in gay personals by the listing of "uncut" as a feature.
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I don't all that often finding myself agreeing with Giles Fraser, either in print or on R4, but there's a good short piece by him here .
I entirely agree with him that, although this case was about a Moslem, German law deciding against 'so central an aspect of Jewish identity is surely as incendiary as it gets.
Modern German law makers are comparable to Nazies?
You have to be an "enemy of religion" to find circumcision barbaric?
Liberalism constitutes the view from nowhere?
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I wonder if we might consider changing the language, and think of the word "circumcision" as a euphemism. This thread reads quite differently if you replace "cut of the end of a baby's penis vs FGM".
Myself, the very idea of someone cutting off the end of such a sensitive part of the body is, well -- shudder -- landing gear retract into fuselage -- can't actually find words. I'm not saying anything here about the mutilation of female genitalia, just thinking we should consider calling something what it is.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
So I'd be fascinated to know why in Jewish culture circumcisions have to be done on babies and can't wait until consent is an option.
My understanding (not my area of expertise) is that the procedure is much simpler medically on newborns, requiring only a single snip. Having no basis of comparison, I invite correction.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
Circumcision is on the eighth day cause the Bible says so. Gen. 17:12.
And note, the Feast of the Circumcision of Our Lord is on Jan. 1, eight days after Christmas.
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
I wonder if we might consider changing the language, and think of the word "circumcision" as a euphemism. This thread reads quite differently if you replace "cut of the end of a baby's penis vs FGM".
. . .
Go hang out in locker rooms and peek. Try to not get arrested.
Come back and report once you know what you are talking about.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
Sorry, responding to George Spigot upthread. Browser didn't refresh.
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
So I'd be fascinated to know why in Jewish culture circumcisions have to be done on babies and can't wait until consent is an option.
My understanding (not my area of expertise) is that the procedure is much simpler medically on newborns, requiring only a single snip. Having no basis of comparison, I invite correction.
Google Gomco clamp, the instrument of choice in North America. For adults they just use a bigger clamp, the rest is the same.
The difference is that adults have to be sedated more as their greater mass is a problem if there is a violent reaction.
Infants are easier to deal with. Google Circumcision Board or Restraint.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
I wonder if we might consider changing the language, and think of the word "circumcision" as a euphemism. This thread reads quite differently if you replace "cut of the end of a baby's penis vs FGM".
. . .
Go hang out in locker rooms and peek. Try to not get arrested.
Come back and report once you know what you are talking about.
Hmmm. Not too many new born babies in locker rooms in the past 50 years of my observance of same.
I'll assume you're trying to be funny with your other comment and ignore it. Please don't personalize this further.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
I wonder if we might consider changing the language, and think of the word "circumcision" as a euphemism. This thread reads quite differently if you replace "cut of the end of a baby's penis vs FGM".
Myself, the very idea of someone cutting off the end of such a sensitive part of the body is, well -- shudder -- landing gear retract into fuselage -- can't actually find words. I'm not saying anything here about the mutilation of female genitalia, just thinking we should consider calling something what it is.
Strictly, it's not the end that's being removed. Jokes about the rewards of being an elephant mohel ("the tips are enormous") sadly mis-state what's happening in a cicumcision.
And as for sensitivity, I'm told that the end of the penis (and the foreskin) is among the least sensitive parts of the body -- othewise, 30 seconds max to climax, and most men wouldn't get near the possibility of being fathers.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
So I'd be fascinated to know why in Jewish culture circumcisions have to be done on babies and can't wait until consent is an option.
My understanding (not my area of expertise) is that the procedure is much simpler medically on newborns, requiring only a single snip. Having no basis of comparison, I invite correction.
Google Gomco clamp, the instrument of choice in North America. For adults they just use a bigger clamp, the rest is the same.
The difference is that adults have to be sedated more as their greater mass is a problem if there is a violent reaction.
Infants are easier to deal with. Google Circumcision Board or Restraint.
The other difference for adults is the greater recovery time (days, not hours in some cases). And that the possibility of real damage to related parts is much greater. My late father went through several days of agony because he proved allergic to the stitches (all males reading this are entitled to cross their legs at this point and moan). Lots more stitches needed for an adult, and lots more potential (if temporary) problems than with an 8-day old. Not to mention the cost of several days drugs to keep everything quiet down there, so as not to rip out the stitches.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
I wonder if we might consider changing the language, and think of the word "circumcision" as a euphemism. This thread reads quite differently if you replace "cut of the end of a baby's penis vs FGM".
. . .
Go hang out in locker rooms and peek. Try to not get arrested.
Come back and report once you know what you are talking about.
Hmmm. Not too many new born babies in locker rooms in the past 50 years of my observance of same.
I'll assume you're trying to be funny with your other comment and ignore it. Please don't personalize this further.
I think he is (rightly) trying to point out they do not "cut the end of the baby's penis." It was either a ignorant mistake on your part or a troll to suggest so. Pray tell which?
As for the premise of this thread, get a fecking life. Baby boys suffer no after effects. Every case of FGM is barbaric, born of mysogyny and deeply damgaing to the girl involved, in every way, for the rest of her life.
To attempt a comparison is a flat refusal to deal with the Horror of FGM.
AtB Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
circumcised guys DO look better tho
Strongly disagree.
horses, Leo, for courses
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
Since in my work I deal with young parents, Medicaid, private insurance, newborns-through-age-21, specialist referrals, pediatricians, urologists, etc. --
And since one of my sons was circumcised by cutting off the end of his foreskin, while for the other it was done with a clear plastic ring-clamp thingy (left on him to kill off the end of the foreskin & cause it to fall off like the umbilical stump) --
I do have opinions.
I'd say any circumcision, whether a mohel does it on the eighth day or whether a physician does it in the 80th year, is only related to the ritual mutilation of tiny girls' genitals in that all procedures concerned involve genitals (as has been stated upthread).
I do the recording of diagnoses and submit the billing for the newborns -- many babies born around here in a given year have extra bits of fingers, toes, earlobe, which are snipped/ligated off, and several each year have differences in how their urethras progress to penis-end. Some of those abnormalities benefit from the little fellows remaining uncircumcised, in case the doctors can use a little bit of extra tissue to sort of -- repair things.
I guess it became popular here just as several other baby-related things became popular between WWII and the 60's. Seems like the same sorts of old literature supporting the preferable, "cleaner" state of being circumcised would also support bottle-feeding as superior to nursing baby.
Much as we claim to abhor royalty here in the US, we sure are royal-watchers -- since Queen Elizabeth had Prince Charles done, I bet that reinforced the stylishness of it all.
Louisiana Medicaid stopped paying for voluntary circumcisions 5 or 6 years ago.
And as for what looks better to the observer, a "cut" or "uncut" male... Honey, that depends upon what he plans to do to me with it.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
I wonder about the guy (almost certainly it was a male) who first considered doing a circumcision.
What made them think of it at all? <cringe>
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Everything you ever wished to know about it ...
[ 14. July 2012, 19:49: Message edited by: Think˛ ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
It was probably a substitute for the sacrifice of the child -- particularly of the first born boy. That would be appropriate for the earliest "hebrew" tribes, among whom child sacrifice was well-known -- boys were sometimes buried under gates to strengthen them, and so on.
But possibly not, as it was a custom observed among Egyptians from the earliest dynasties onward -- certainly from well before when it would have becomea hebrew custom. I confess to being ignorant as to whether the early Egyptians had once used human/child sacrifice. I suppose the sand-under-the-foreskin argument might have been a factor for them.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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