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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: Circumcision vs FGM - the ethics? (Page 8)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Circumcision vs FGM - the ethics?
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I just think that "part of the penis" sounds a lot worse than removing foreskin.

It rather doesn't matter how bad it sounds. Sounding good is not a criteria for determining body parts.

quote:
Originally posted by ThinkČ:
It is like describing losing a bit of your earlobe as missing a bit of your head though - somewhat misleading proportionately.

No, it's like describing a losing a bit of your earlobe as missing a bit of your ear. Which is perfectly accurate.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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Is this thread still going on? Jeez!
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
As has already been pointed out the foreskin is part of the penis.

And so is a toenail part of your foot, but simply saying in unqualified fashion "he's chopping of part of my foot" would give the wrong impression.


quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It rather doesn't matter how bad it sounds. Sounding good is not a criteria for determining body parts.

It wasn't my criteria for determining body parts, it was my criteria for the importance of giving the correct impression. An unqualified "removing part of the penis" to me gives the impression of substantially more extensive cutting than simply removing the foreskin.

quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
This is a simple repetition of the doctrinally correct. But the example given above is exactly contradicting what you say.
According to those who practice this form of female circumcision (Shafi'i Muslims), it exactly parallels male circumcision

I'm not sure I believe that they can reproducibly do such an accurate excision. What is described elsewhere as a minor procedure often ends up being more extensive in practice and less well done. The clitoral hood is much smaller than the foreskin, and more difficult to operate on. They also represent an extreme minority view on what is Islamic practice, and I don't think the law on male circumcision would oblige the law to follow such a minority view.

In fact we currently have a situation where female circumcision is illegal but male circumcision is legal across most of Europe, but the pressure to legalise female circumcision seems very slight and easily resisted. This might be more of an argument if both forms were currently legal, and it was proposed to change the status quo and legalise male but not female circumcision. However, the debate is about making male circumcision illegal, and I think it isn't credible to argue that female circumcision is about to be legalized if we don't criminalize male circumcision.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
An unqualified "removing part of the penis" to me gives the impression of substantially more extensive cutting than simply removing the foreskin.

Gives to whom? People who don't consider the foreskin part of the penis? Anybody who can't stomach the fact that male circumcision is, in fact, cutting off part of the penis, perhaps ought to reexamine their beliefs about circumcision, just as anybody who can't stand the thought that they are eating cow or pig should reexamine their thoughts about carnophagy.

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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
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# 8520

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Well if we had the same conversation about someone cutting off "part of my foot" vs "my toenail" would you feel the same?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Inger
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# 15285

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Well if we had the same conversation about someone cutting off "part of my foot" vs "my toenail" would you feel the same?

One might perhaps point out that a nail will regrow. I don't think it's really analogous with cutting off the foreskin.
Posts: 332 | From: Newcastle, UK | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Is this thread still going on? Jeez!

It seems to have hit "dead horse" territory loooong ago in my book.

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mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Well if we had the same conversation about someone cutting off "part of my foot" vs "my toenail" would you feel the same?

quote:
Originally posted by Inger:
One might perhaps point out that a nail will regrow. I don't think it's really analogous with cutting off the foreskin.

Of course it's not analogous, but in terms of determining whether a particular anatomical structure is part of something else whether it regrows or not is irrelevant. I'm saying it is technically correct to call the foreskin part of the penis, just as it is technically correct to call a toenail part of the foot.

But dropping the qualification for the precise part makes a different impression. To me anyway.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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I think it's rather like bobbing the tails of some breeds of doggies. Actually that always scared me -- too evocative of castration.
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mousethief

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# 953

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You don't "cut off" your toenail. Having lost a toenail, I can tell you that trimming the end of your toenail and having your toenail "cut off" are quite different things. None of which has anything to do with whether or not the foreskin is part of the penis.

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mdijon
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# 8520

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When you lost your toenail would you have said you'd lost "part of your foot"?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Sylvander
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# 12857

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A man comparing his toenails to his foreskin must lead either an extremely pleasurable or a very sheltered life ...

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George Spigot

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# 253

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@mdijon

If you really want to keep forcing this comparison then maybe change toenail to the skin of the toe?

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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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I'm not forcing it as a comparison except with regard to making a single point about "part of" vs using a precise word already available in the language.

So for me "skin of big toe" vs "part of my foot" works to make the same point as well. Someone who described their injury in an insurance claims form as losing "part of their foot" when they'd lost skin off their big toe would be technically correct, but perhaps trying to over-egg the impression gained regarding their injury.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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# 953

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What percent of your average penis is the foreskin, say by weight, when flaccid?

What percent of your average foot is the skin from one toe?

Not in the same ballpark.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Wiki has entire article on human penis size - oddly it doesn't concentrate on weight, I am not entirely sure how you'd get the information needed to evaluate your comparison.
This is the only study they cite mentioning weight - but it is behind a pay wall.

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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What percent of your average penis is the foreskin, say by weight, when flaccid?

What percent of your average foot is the skin from one toe?

Would it surprise you to learn I don't have accurate figures to hand?

It seems to me that even if the comparison were off by an order of magnitude, the principle is nevertheless demonstrated that describing something as "part of" rather than it's precise limits can be misleading, even if technically correct.

What part of the foot would you use in the illustration mousethief?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Here is a random link about what happens to circumcised foreskins. I believe it was produced in a fit of outrage - but it is also another way of thinking about medical benefit.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470

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There are at least 8 bottled/ preserved/ revered foreskins of the Baby Jesus scattered around the globe too!

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Enoch
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# 14322

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As a matter of curiosity, does any shipmate know whether East-of-Orthodox Christians, like Copts, Ethiopians or Assyrians practice circumcision or FGM of any sort?

If they do, that would imply it is a social custom embedded in the Middle East and the Horn of Africa. If they don't, and particularly if they take the line this is something that distinguishes them from the Moslems and Jews that surround them, that would imply that it is specifically a religious custom.

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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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Ethiopian Orthodox Christians and most Kenyan Christians (depending on tribe) practice circumcision, but as far as I know this isn't performed in a religious context.

However, the fact that some Africans practice circumcision on a cultural basis does not mean that some other Africans don't practice circumcision on a religious basis.

For instance, culturally practiced circumcision in Kenya tends to be done in early teenage years, but the perceived Islamic custom is to circumcise babies.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
What part of the foot would you use in the illustration mousethief?

In what illustration?

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