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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Is Calvinism the Asperger's Syndrome of Protestantism?
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm exaggerating to make a point, but I've been wondering whether Calvinism, in its more extreme forms, represents an approach that is reminiscent of 'Asperger's Syndrome'.
It seems to posit an overly binary form of dualism. It's very black and white and very literal.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that Calvinists are 'aspies' or like the kid in 'The Extraordinary Incident of the Dog in the Night Time' and popular representations of Asperger's.
But in its cold, calculating logic there is something Spock-like about it, I would suggest, the Alan Turing of the Protestant spectrum. Turing, as those familiar with his pioneering work on artificial intelligence will know, was very 'literal' in his approach and struggled with metaphor and so on.
Ok, so I can't prove this, nor can I demonstrate that Arminians or others (such as the Orthodox who are neither Calvinist nor Arminian) can't be prone to various syndromes and possible disorders - heck, I've met some whacky revivalist Arminians in my time ...
But it's this constant either/or binary divide that keeps coming up on threads where the freewill/predestination issue comes up.
And I suspect it runs through into people's approach to other issues too.
I'm not sure if I have a solution, I'm just making an observation.
Is it a fair one?
[ 02. November 2012, 20:32: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I think there might, just might, be a simpler answer, Gamaliel.
Jean Cauvin (John Calvin) was both French and a lawyer. There is a certain remorseless logic to his position. He took the most extreme stance from the RCC of his time it would be possible to.
A very strange man. Certainly not my cup of hemlock. But great Christians have come out of the Calvinist tradition: you only have to look at Bayers Naude, one of the genuine heroes of the anti-apartheid movement.
Many Christian "positions", especially to those who don't hold them, might seem strange. I think you have to apply the "by their fruits test" in each particular instance, if important enough to you and then march on.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel
But in its cold, calculating logic there is something Spock-like about it, I would suggest, the Alan Turing of the Protestant spectrum. Turing, as those familiar with his pioneering work on artificial intelligence will know, was very 'literal' in his approach and struggled with metaphor and so on.
I'm often fascinated by the juxtaposition of the words "cold" and "logic". Logic is not cold or calculating - it is just the method by which we think clearly. In fact, love could not operate without logic: if someone said to me "I love you", I would assume that that person would not contradict (i.e. be illogical) him- or herself by then suddenly hating me! I would hope that his / her love would be subject to logic!!
Furthermore, I don't think Calvinism - the double predestination kind, whether infra- or supralapsarian - is logical. My beef with it is its total illogicality. The "coldness" of it is due to its departure from logic.
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd)
Jean Cauvin (John Calvin) was both French and a lawyer. There is a certain remorseless logic to his position.
And further to what I wrote above... I don't think Calvinism is consistent with justice, so what kind of "lawyer" Calvin was beats me.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Lord Jestocost
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# 12909
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Posted
Asperger's is a medical condition which I don't believe anyone chooses (though with varying degrees it can be possible to choose their response to it).
The "cold logic" position is a very definite choice, which I would ascribe not necessarily to Calvinism (don't know enough about it) but to any denomination that voluntarily suppresses the instinct of human love and forgiveness in the face of doctrine about God's inability to tolerate sin, the inevitability of Hell for the unsaved, etc. etc.
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Niminypiminy
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# 15489
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Posted
I don't like this metaphor, because it depends on such a parodic, false and unfair characterisation of people with Asperger Syndrome.
I could write an essay, but here are just a few things that are wrong:
People with Asperger Syndrome are not cold. They have intense feelings -- as we all do -- but they may not communicate them in the same way.
People with Asperger Syndrome can be highly creative and imaginative.
People with Asperger Syndrome can find patterns, numbers, plans, maps and so on fascinating and sympathetic. But not necessarily.
I could go on, but I won't. There's an interesting debate to be had about the emotional temper of Calvinism and its underpinning sensibility. But I think it's really wrong to characterise it in this way.
[ 17. July 2012, 09:08: Message edited by: Niminypiminy ]
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Like all analogies, it will only stretch so far. I didn't intend to offend.
I have friends with Asperger's Syndrome and yes, they are very warm and very creative.
I also have very Calvinistic friends too, and the same applies to them.
I'm not doling out a diagnosis, just suggesting that there might be analogies that we can draw (without pushing them too far) - in that extreme Calvinism can be overly literal in a similar way to the effects of Asperger's are said to incline that way. I'm making no value judgement on people with Asperger's Syndrome.
Etymological Evangelical has raised an interesting point about skewed logic. I hadn't thought of that, but I think he's right that if you take hyper-Calvinism to its logical conclusion you do step out of the bounds of logic altogether ...
Arminianism has equal and opposite tendencies.
Which is why I would argue for some kind of more 'mystical' approach and why I'm increasingly attracted to the Orthodox 'take' rather than Western approaches to this issue - whilst acknowledging that all of us will only have a partial appreciation at best ...
@Sir Pellinore - agreed. Back in the day I was very impressed by a Dutch Reformed anti-apartheid campaigner who came to speak at our very charismatic church ...
I am by no means out to diss the contribution of individual Calvinists nor to diss the Reformed tradition in general. It's the extreme end of it that bothers me.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I find myself drawn towards Calvinism, but then in the dim distant past of schooldays I was drawn towards the sciences, particularly mathematics, and away from the humanities. There is a beauty (scientifically speaking) in the logic of Calvin which I find to resist.
That saying there are things that horrify me too. But I find that on balance I'm a fan.
What I don't like about Calvinism is it's tendency to attack Arminianism. In scripture we are warned against taking sides behind people: The Corinthians sided with Paul, Apollos or Peter. We are doing the same thing when we side with Calvin, Armin or Aquinas.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Cold? Its the opposite! The emotional basis for finding Calvinism comfortable - which is not of course a good reason to believe it it but people being people must be of some influence - is confidence in God, trust. All those arguments young evangelicals have over the late-night coffee or at the Bible study on Hebrews about "falling away" and "perseverence" and "once saved always saved" and "surety of salvation"
The semi-Pelagian range of views about God that resurfaced in Arminianism and counter-Reformation Catholicism imply that its possible for a saved person to become dammed by falling into sin/ You sometimes see presentations of Christianity that explicitly talk about being dammed forever if you commit a mortal sin and die before you can confess it. As if your relationship with God didn't depend on God's eternity, or even on the whole span and general character of your life, but on the accidental circumstances of when you happen to die.
That's a fearful view of God; stressing anger, destruction, and apparently arbitrary rules rather than love, creativity, and providence. Churches should not be preaching that. God is not an angry policeman standing at the corner of the street waiting for someone to commit some sin or crime so that they can be punished.
We call God "Our Father". What sort of father is it that rejects his children whenever they disobey him? What sort of childhood is it to be living under continual fear that if you make a wrong step its all over and you are out on your own? If God is like the best sort of human father (and surely he is not like the worst) then he is like the sort of father who sticks with his children whatever they do, wherever they go.
And what's wrong with logic? Logic, rational thought, is just another name for thinking done right. The idea of God as eternal, outside time, makes sense. It is believable, credible, in a way that the wordl-bound gods of Mormonism or process theology are not. (Obviously, being credible doesn't make it true any more than being comfortable does, though it does mean it could be true). The traditional small-o-orthodox idea of God as eternal and outside the world means we get both sorts of religion, country and western, sorry I mean immanent and transcendent. The Incarnation makes the transcendent, eternal God, immanent, localised, timebound, present, in Jesus. God, eternal, surely knows who God saves, just as God knows who God creates. The end of the story is visible from the begining - the worlds story of time as well as each of our individual stories. To usm, inside the universe, part of the world of time and space, there is a process, a succession of events, an actual choice to turn to God, moments of redemption and falling away, of conversion and backsliding. But that can't be the case from an eternal point of view any more than the plot of a novel depends on where you start reading it.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
Yes. No. Maybe. Perhaps in the recasting of Calvin by Beza this is more true - the Institutes themselves order things more or less around the structure of the book of Romans.
But then, all theologies use logic at certain points - they just vary in the extent to which and the areas over which they are willing to entertain contradictions/mystery.
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
Yes, but the flip side to your Calvinist coin, Ken, is what is says about those who aren't 'saved': "er...sorry, but God doesn't like you very much [with apologies to Not the Nine o'Clock News] ...and there's bugger all you can do about it!"
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I agree on the 'comfortable' aspects of Calvinism, Ken, and don't forget I was pretty Calvinistically inclined at one time ... I still am to a certain extent ...
But it's the corollary of it that is rather cold and chilling ...
I think Balaam's onto something with his analysis of his own attraction towards Calvinism - there is a logic about it and that is, in itself, an attractive feature - like mathematics and other 'patterns'.
Islam is very deterministic and I suggest that there is no accident in its preferred form of artistic expression being highly geometric.
I'd probably be over-emphasising the point, though, if I suggested that Calvinism does appeal to mathematics, IT people, lawyers, accountants and various geeks of that ilk than it does to poets, painters and so on ... as I'm sure you could find people on both sides of the debate who are artistically inclined.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Calvinism is a strange character, it seems to me to be a centrifugal tradition that seems to push people to extremes (yes the biggest liberals also tend to be Calvinists). It has a strong reputation for division yet the tradition really starts with synthesis, that of Calvin's Genevan tradition with the post Zwingli Zurich and Berne. Many Calvinist for instance take their Eucharist theology from Zwingli, Calvin was NOT a memorialist.
The tradition is rigourous, it values highly carefully thought out positions but it also has mystery at its centre, it knows it only ever talks of God by analogy. Yet there is the passion the great love of God, a tradition that quite often turns to Song of Songs to find its expression of love for God.
A tradition that at once has the doctrine that Salvation is up to God, yet has probably had the most missionary effort of any. The command to go and make disciples was taken despite the theology.
The strong metaphor for God in the Reformed tradition is "Other". That is normally taken to be more than human but there is the sense in which that also takes on the sociological aspect of "Other" which is that which we tend to want to exclude. A classic of this would be the refugee, but then what do you expect from a traditions whose founder served in a city as a resident alien and was never naturalised. John Calvin was never a Genevan.
Calvin is a master writer, and yes used all his lawyer brains, but just like a lawyer in court his writing is to persuade you he is right, not to produce a systematic theology. The clarity is partly illusion of a skilled performer. His language is smooth, in a way that few later Reformed theologians have produced since, but in its smoothness you miss the complexities that are often there. When people try and sort it into a totally logical approach they end up having to twist what is there.
Remember Calvin held the world was the theatre of God's creation, which is hardly the doctrine of someone who thought the world was going to Hell in an hand basket.
Jengie
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
I'm a Protestant.
I have Asperger's Syndrome.
And I am not a Calvinist.
So, I would be inclined to say "No".
PS: I don't think equating psychological conditions and theological viewpoints is very helpful. There is a saying in the autistic community: "If you have met one autistic person, then you have met one autistic person". People on the autism spectrum vary considerably, and many do not really resemble the oversimplified characterisations of autism and Asperger's syndrome that non-autistic people often imagine. Associating Asperger's and Calvinism oversimplifies and misrepresents both "isms" (Calvinism and autism). It also makes us Aspies wonder what is really being implied here ... I mean, why pick on us?
Anyway, based on my own experience, I might say that Aspies are inclined towards contemplative prayer, because it lets us be on our own in beautiful peace and quiet. But then, I am only one Aspie.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
I don't like this metaphor, because it depends on such a parodic, false and unfair characterisation of people with Asperger Syndrome.
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
PS: I don't think equating psychological conditions and theological viewpoints is very helpful. There is a saying in the autistic community: "If you have met one autistic person, then you have met one autistic person". People on the autism spectrum vary considerably, and many do not really resemble the oversimplified characterisations of autism and Asperger's syndrome that non-autistic people often imagine. Associating Asperger's and Calvinism oversimplifies and misrepresents both "isms" (Calvinism and autism). It also makes us Aspies wonder what is really being implied here ... I mean, why pick on us?
As the father of an Aspie, and as one whose life has been spent in the Reformed Tradition (and whose children are being raised in the same tradition), I find myself agreeing completely with these two posts. The framing of the question is a complete non-starter to discussion, it seem to me.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I think there might, just might, be a simpler answer, Gamaliel.
Jean Cauvin (John Calvin) was both French and a lawyer. There is a certain remorseless logic to his position. He took the most extreme stance from the RCC of his time it would be possible to.
A very strange man. Certainly not my cup of hemlock. But great Christians have come out of the Calvinist tradition: you only have to look at Bayers Naude, one of the genuine heroes of the anti-apartheid movement.
Many Christian "positions", especially to those who don't hold them, might seem strange. I think you have to apply the "by their fruits test" in each particular instance, if important enough to you and then march on.
Huldrych Zwingli surely?
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I'm with Ken on this one.
Even though humanity is dead to sin, God offers his salvation for free. Really that is Calvin in one sentence, and I can't help but to feel an incredible amount of comfort in it.
Pelagian heretics don't really believe humanity is dead to sin- they insist humanity has at least a little ground to stand. Maybe severely crippled, they admit, but not completely dead. But Calvin and the Holy Scriptures say "No, humanity has no ground whatsoever to stand before God."
Humanity is dead to sin- I know I can't repent enough or say enough prayers or give enough money to the Church. There will never be any consolation until humanity really admits how bad the condition is. But nevertheless, God has already given the Kingdom anyways, and there is nothing to do or can be done but praise God before the congregation just like the patriarchs and saints in ages past.
[ 17. July 2012, 13:34: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I think there might, just might, be a simpler answer, Gamaliel.
Jean Cauvin (John Calvin) was both French and a lawyer. There is a certain remorseless logic to his position. He took the most extreme stance from the RCC of his time it would be possible to.
A very strange man. Certainly not my cup of hemlock. But great Christians have come out of the Calvinist tradition: you only have to look at Bayers Naude, one of the genuine heroes of the anti-apartheid movement.
Many Christian "positions", especially to those who don't hold them, might seem strange. I think you have to apply the "by their fruits test" in each particular instance, if important enough to you and then march on.
Huldrych Zwingli surely?
Nope: even Zwingli didn't like this lot.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Superb rhetorical OP Gamaliel! No further comment required.
And yes, it is, the greatest adventure in missing the point since Augustine. Ooh, it's the same one!
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Love wins
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Zach: quote:
Even though humanity is dead to sin, God offers his salvation for free. Really that is Calvin in one sentence
Sounds like Christianity in one sentence to me. If that was all that Calvinism is about, it wouldn't be a separate movement, and so many Christians wouldn't find it offensive.
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Hmmm...no Calvinist (self-declared or otherwise) has attempted to tackle the 'flip side' in my penultimate post...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Indeed. I wonder how often people say 'I am a Calvinist and I believe that I am irredeemably damned'?
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Yes, but the flip side to your Calvinist coin, Ken, is what is says about those who aren't 'saved': "er...sorry, but God doesn't like you very much [with apologies to Not the Nine o'Clock News] ...and there's bugger all you can do about it!"
Well .. all theologies except some forms of universalism and open theism eventually run into a variant of the question; Why are some saved and not others?
In both Arminianism and Calvinism you have some action of God in the depths of time that consign some to hell and some to heaven. Unless you posit some form of open theism even libertarian free will doesn't get you out of this problem.
Being reformed I have exactly the same problem, however the one thing I need to stay true to is my experience of God's Grace.
[ 17. July 2012, 14:44: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Yes, but with any soteriological system other than Calvinism you haev at least some degree of personal responsibility on the part of the human being; with Calvinism you don't.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Zach: quote:
Even though humanity is dead to sin, God offers his salvation for free. Really that is Calvin in one sentence
Sounds like Christianity in one sentence to me. If that was all that Calvinism is about, it wouldn't be a separate movement, and so many Christians wouldn't find it offensive.
Not really. People say they believe God's offer of salvation is unconditional, but actually make it conditional on a person's decision to accept it. Which is a condition if there ever was one.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Yes, but with any soteriological system other than Calvinism you haev at least some degree of personal responsibility on the part of the human being; with Calvinism you don't.
Which usually only pushes the problem back by one step.
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
Indeed. I wonder how often people say 'I am a Calvinist and I believe that I am irredeemably damned'?
I've known a couple. They generally exit either calvinism or Christianity at great speed.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
"Irredeemably damned" doesn't compute in Calvinism. Calvinism merely says that we are damned, apart from God's grace, and refuses to leave some pure part of the human soul that can choose salvation.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
People say they believe God's offer of salvation is unconditional, but actually make it conditional on a person's decision to accept it. Which is a condition if there ever was one.
That's not a condition. It is stretching language beyond breaking point to call it a condition. That somebody has to decide to accept it is what makes it an offer.
Besides, you're getting your Calvinism wrong. Calvinism says that humans do have to decide to accept salvation. It's just it says that that God's prior grace is both a necessary and a sufficient cause of them making that decision.
[ 17. July 2012, 16:24: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
That's not a condition. It is stretching language beyond breaking point to call it a condition. That somebody has to decide to accept it is what makes it an offer.
Besides, you're getting your Calvinism wrong. Calvinism says that humans do have to decide to accept salvation. It's just it says that that God's prior grace is both a necessary and a sufficient cause of them making that decision.
"If you choose salvation, God gives it to you" is a conditional statement. It's not stretching the meaning "conditional," it is the very definition of conditional.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Yes, but with any soteriological system other than Calvinism you haev at least some degree of personal responsibility on the part of the human being; with Calvinism you don't.
Which usually only pushes the problem back by one step.
An important step nevertheless.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
"If you choose salvation, God gives it to you" is a conditional statement. It's not stretching the meaning "conditional," it is the very definition of conditional.
A full-on tulip-head would surely put it the other way round: "If God gives you salvation than you will choose it".
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Think about the consequences of leaving humanity space to stand. You are saying that God offers his salvation, but that could not be enough. God offers his salvation, but have you really chosen to accept it?
Jesus showed us what it's like if we really be saved, and all I can say is that isn't me. I have not loved God with my whole heart, I have not loved my neighbor as myself. I have failed to be obedient. So I can only conclude that, on some deep level, I don't really accept God's grace. There I either lose hope altogether, for no matter how hard I try I cannot make myself be like Jesus, or I can remember that God is merciful and has given his salvation to His Church freely and unconditionally because he loves us.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
"If you choose salvation, God gives it to you" is a conditional statement. It's not stretching the meaning "conditional," it is the very definition of conditional.
A full-on tulip-head would surely put it the other way round: "If God gives you salvation than you will choose it".
Alas, I am ultimately more Lutheran in my theology than Calvinist. It is all the more astonishing to me that God's Church is place where we are more certain of our sin than anyone else.
[ 17. July 2012, 16:43: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Yes, but with any soteriological system other than Calvinism you haev at least some degree of personal responsibility on the part of the human being; with Calvinism you don't.
We are getting in to a "What does the real Calvinism say?" here, but my understanding is that Calvinism does put our judgement down to personal responsibility - people are judged because they chose sinful ways and rebellion to God. They are personally responsible for that. It moves the responsibility of salvation wholly to God as Zach has said, but people make decisions to choose sinful behaviour they will be judged for. That may not make it morally less reprhensible to you, but it does leave room for personal responsibility if that's important to you.
Arminianism of the non-open-theist kind doesn't really protect this anyway, as it admits God is sovereign over every circumstance through which you were brought to make the decision if not your will itself, which is a difference so small as to hardly make a difference. This is why so many previous Arminians become open theists IME - protecting free will does eventually lead you to saying God doesn't plan the future. At least not in detail.
I'd like to add that I find the idea at the heart of the OP quite offensive, because of all the negative connotations about people with AS. And I've only ever heard "aspie" used in a borderline abusive way before, although that may be my limited horizons. So while always happy to chat about Calvinism, I'm not sure the stage set by the OP is the best way to do it. YMMV.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
And I've only ever heard "aspie" used in a borderline abusive way before, although that may be my limited horizons.
At least on this side of the pond, "Aspie" is a colloquialism used by many people with Asperger's and their families. It is, at least in my experience, generally viewed as a friendlier term than, say, "person with Asperger's," though I know there are some who prefer not to be referred to as an Aspie. The other self-describing term I hear from time to time is Aspergian (or Aspergerian).
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
Gemaliel: You are probably aware of the work of Simon Bar Cohen (Ali G's uncle I believe) in this area. He developed the concept of the typical male brain, as being very much attuned to systems, and being rather black and white. He believes this almost imperceptibly lead to the autistic spectrum. I'm certainly like that.
Now if this is true, would it not be less contentious to ask whether Calvinism appeals to the typically male brain? From very unscientific samples, I would say mathematicians and other people with a strong logic bent are drawn to Calvinism, as indeed I am, albeit in its liberal form.
It is very easily misunderstood, since what is rests on is the radical inexplicability of God, which lots of christians talk loudly about and then slag off calvinists for being non-logical, not illogical.
They would, therefore, along with Calvin, refuse to try and elucidate the paradox or contradiction involved in believing both that God desires all men to be saved, and that those who are saved are saved through the effective sovereign action of God. They believe, rightly in my view, that both are taught in scripture, and there is no way to reconcile them. I would now say that this is one strand of NT teaching, but not the only one, meaning that anyone who insists on getting a consistent message will to a fair bit of scripture twisting.
There's no paradox in the fact that strong logical thinkers arrive at an inexplicable solution. It happens all the time, and obviously it means that we do not and can not understand reality at all fully.
Alongside that you have to reckon that every religion will decay in its own way. Some are more likely to degenerate into superstition, others into materialism. Calvinism can easily degenerate into a self-satisfaction, like the (probably apocryphal) story of the woman to said to Thomas Goodwin "Isn't God wonderful. He's condemned practically the whole human race, but saved me!" Always told as a joke BTW in reformed circles.
[ 17. July 2012, 18:04: Message edited by: anteater ]
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Yes, but with any soteriological system other than Calvinism you haev at least some degree of personal responsibility on the part of the human being; with Calvinism you don't.
Which usually only pushes the problem back by one step.
An important step nevertheless.
Not really, as Leprechaun points out later on, because even if you posit libertarian free-will (rather than the compatibilist sort) you still have a situation where the action of God far back in time consigns some to heaven and some to hell.
Unless you go down the open theist route.
Furthermore, either it was all God's doing, or in some way you were responsible for your own salvation - in which case are you really saying that you were a little smarter, a little better, a little bit more spiritual than those who didn't?
Besides, all that the Reformed are claiming is, as anteater says:
"They would, therefore, along with Calvin, refuse to try and elucidate the paradox or contradiction involved in believing both that God desires all men to be saved, and that those who are saved are saved through the effective sovereign action of God. They believe, rightly in my view, that both are taught in scripture, and there is no way to reconcile them. "
In other words, everyone's will is bound in relation to salvation, and all human beings in their natural state and given a thousand chances to choose God would reject him, but he opens the eyes of some to chose him freely.
[ 17. July 2012, 19:55: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Yes, but the flip side to your Calvinist coin, Ken, is what is says about those who aren't 'saved': "er...sorry, but God doesn't like you very much [with apologies to Not the Nine o'Clock News] ...and there's bugger all you can do about it!"
How can one be sure that one is saved, or not saved? Because salvation happens by God's grace, one can never be sure if one is saved or not short of the next world. To claim in the present life that one is surely saved is pride.
Just because God has a plan doesn't mean we understand that plan, or even need to.
Anyway, yet another anti-Calvinist windup. Whisky shooters every time somebody mentions "Double-Predestination"!
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
"If you choose salvation, God gives it to you" is a conditional statement. It's not stretching the meaning "conditional," it is the very definition of conditional.
Merely because you can express what happens in a conditional statement does not make the offer a conditional offer nor offered upon conditions.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
"If you choose salvation, God gives it to you" is a conditional statement. It's not stretching the meaning "conditional," it is the very definition of conditional.
Merely because you can express what happens in a conditional statement does not make the offer a conditional offer nor offered upon conditions.
I am not going to go on guessing what you imagine "conditional" to mean. I can only account for the real meaning.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
sounds like I need to talk to my strongly Reformed mate who is an artist and works with Aspergers kids ....
I'll settle for chasers on every mention of predestination (double or otherwise)
Editted to add drinking by Twangist
[ 17. July 2012, 20:26: Message edited by: Twangist ]
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JJ
SDG
blog
Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Jesus showed us what it's like if we really be saved, and all I can say is that isn't me. I have not loved God with my whole heart, I have not loved my neighbor as myself. I have failed to be obedient. So I can only conclude that, on some deep level, I don't really accept God's grace.
No. That's not a logical conclusion. You're introducing a term 'accept God's grace' that isn't in your premises. The logical conclusion, based on your premises, is that you're not saved. Nothing in your premises depends upon any rejection of Calvinist theology. Adding Calvinist premises to your argument does not alter your conclusion: it merely adds the additional conclusion that you have never been effectually offered God's grace.
You can remember that God is merciful and has given his salvation to His church freely and unconditionally - and you can remember that Jesus has shown you what you would be like had you been given his salvation freely and unconditionally - from which if your overall argument is sound it follows that you are not part of His church and God's free and unconditional gift of salvation was not made to you.
Your only way out of your dilemma is not to accept Calvinist premises but to cut the confusion between salvation and sanctification in your first premise. Which, indeed, being more a Lutheran than a Calvinist, you do. But rejecting the confusion between salvation and sanctification does not depend upon accepting that grace is irresistible.
[ 17. July 2012, 20:34: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I am not going to go on guessing what you imagine "conditional" to mean. I can only account for the real meaning.
A statement is not an offer. Therefore, if I say that a statement is conditional I am not saying anything about whether any offers are or are not conditional. That surely is a basic point of language?
Besides, if 'if you accept God's offer then you are saved' makes God's offer conditional, then 'if God offers you salvation then you are saved' equally makes God's offer conditional.
Unless you're a universalist, there must be some sense of 'conditional' in which you believe God's offer is conditional.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Besides, if 'if you accept God's offer then you are saved' makes God's offer conditional, then 'if God offers you salvation then you are saved' equally makes God's offer conditional.
No, it means one is still conditional and the other is a tautology. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
For Calvin they are both tautologies, actually, but that has nothing to do with your confusing arguments here.
[ 17. July 2012, 20:46: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Zach: quote:
Even though humanity is dead to sin, God offers his salvation for free. Really that is Calvin in one sentence
Sounds like Christianity in one sentence to me. If that was all that Calvinism is about, it wouldn't be a separate movement, and so many Christians wouldn't find it offensive.
Not really. People say they believe God's offer of salvation is unconditional, but actually make it conditional on a person's decision to accept it. Which is a condition if there ever was one.
In other words, outside Calvinism Christians believe that God has made us with free will and respects it, because he treats us as human beings. Inside Calvinism we become flesh covered robots.
You've now added to your original definition. All Christians would agree that God's grace is freely given. Only Calvinists would turn God into a mechanical juggernaut.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
Gemaliel: You are probably aware of the work of Simon Bar Cohen (Ali G's uncle I believe) in this area. He developed the concept of the typical male brain, as being very much attuned to systems, and being rather black and white. He believes this almost imperceptibly lead to the autistic spectrum. I'm certainly like that.
Now if this is true, would it not be less contentious to ask whether Calvinism appeals to the typically male brain? From very unscientific samples, I would say mathematicians and other people with a strong logic bent are drawn to Calvinism, as indeed I am, albeit in its liberal form.
It is very easily misunderstood, since what is rests on is the radical inexplicability of God, which lots of christians talk loudly about and then slag off calvinists for being non-logical, not illogical.
They would, therefore, along with Calvin, refuse to try and elucidate the paradox or contradiction involved in believing both that God desires all men to be saved, and that those who are saved are saved through the effective sovereign action of God. They believe, rightly in my view, that both are taught in scripture, and there is no way to reconcile them. I would now say that this is one strand of NT teaching, but not the only one, meaning that anyone who insists on getting a consistent message will to a fair bit of scripture twisting.
There's no paradox in the fact that strong logical thinkers arrive at an inexplicable solution. It happens all the time, and obviously it means that we do not and can not understand reality at all fully.
Alongside that you have to reckon that every religion will decay in its own way. Some are more likely to degenerate into superstition, others into materialism. Calvinism can easily degenerate into a self-satisfaction, like the (probably apocryphal) story of the woman to said to Thomas Goodwin "Isn't God wonderful. He's condemned practically the whole human race, but saved me!" Always told as a joke BTW in reformed circles.
I am the flip side of that theory then. I am drawn to history, music and the arts in general and not surprisingly I am just about as Lutheran as it is possible for an Anglican to get. I have the same problem with Calvinism as I do with Tridentine Catholicism - bth are way too tightly drawn for comfort.
Now me and my old buddy Martin are going to have another bucket of Bock, sing a few songs, and stock up on the chalk for when the Swiss boys get here.
PD
[ 17. July 2012, 23:34: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Is a Christian a snow-covered dunghill, PD?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I don't have ASD, but your use of it here is offensive, insensitive, and ill-considered.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Is a Christian a snow-covered dunghill, PD?
I am not an optimist when it comes to human nature. Our hope of salvation ultimately lies in what God has done for us in Jesus Christ, not on any merit of our own. I may not use some of Luther's more colourful phrases, but I agree with the sentiment.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I am not an optimist when it comes to human nature. Our hope of salvation ultimately lies in what God has done for us in Jesus Christ, not on any merit of our own. I may not use some of Luther's more colourful phrases, but I agree with the sentiment.
PD
Glad to hear it. I don't share Luther's particularly Germanic fixations either, but when he's right he's right.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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