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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: A 2012 US election thread
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
This Washington Post column details the way the political machinations work, for those who are interested in the mechanics of it all.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Gerrymandering isn't an issue. State legislatures decide the makeup of congressional districts. The makeup of the state legislature reflects the leanings of the state as a whole.
Wait, you're arguing that there's no such thing as gerrymandering in the U.S.? I think you have to go into a little more depth than simply asserting that state legislatures, by their nature, can't fiddle electoral outcomes by redrawing electoral boundaries.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Gerrymandering isn't an issue. State legislatures decide the makeup of congressional districts.
That IS gerrymandering!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Gerrymandering isn't an issue. State legislatures decide the makeup of congressional districts. The makeup of the state legislature reflects the leanings of the state as a whole. The presidential candidate will likely get a significant number of votes in a state where his or her party controls the state legislature.
The state legislators also draw up the districts for the state legislature. Thus Florida, which is pretty evenly divided population-wise between the Republicans and Democrats, has a consistently Republican legislature. The party in power in the State thus acts to perpetuate its power through questionable means. Then, because they dominate power at the State level for extended periods of time, the party in power can then draw its federal Congressional districts in such a way to benefit that party disproportionately.
It's a conflict of interest. I don't think there's any way around it.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Having a 3rd unelected party set it up would help, but that would require getting beyond the idea that only elected people should do anything of import.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Gerrymandering isn't an issue. State legislatures decide the makeup of congressional districts.
That IS gerrymandering!
State legislatures drawing congressional districts is not gerrymandering. Drawing the districts with weird shapes for political purposes is gerrymandering. It still doesn't matter. A partisan controlled state legislature can limit the number of congressional seats the opposition party gets. However, the opposition party will get some congressional districts and the electoral votes that go with them.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Having a 3rd unelected party set it up would help, but that would require getting beyond the idea that only elected people should do anything of import.
How would the 3rd party be selected?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
I only heard bits but last night IMO Gary Johnson made as much sense as anyone. The more palatable Ron Paul?
And how can you not love a guy who can say this
quote:
I stand corrected, thanks!
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 205:
I only heard bits but last night IMO Gary Johnson made as much sense as anyone. The more palatable Ron Paul?
And how can you not love a guy who can say this
quote:
I stand corrected, thanks!
Wow! I thought Republicans had some sort of genetic defect, no doubt due to excessive inbreeding, that rendered their vocal chords incapable of framing those words.
Yes, a major step forward.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 205:
I only heard bits but last night IMO Gary Johnson made as much sense as anyone. The more palatable Ron Paul?
And how can you not love a guy who can say this
quote:
I stand corrected, thanks!
Clearly, what he meant to say is that mistakes have been made...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
President Herman Cain? I could live with that.
A pizza on every kitchen table...
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Sure. Who has time to cook a turkey any more? I'm sure millions of Americans would prefer the convenience of Slice and Munch.
Barrack Obama vs. Herman Cain? By John Calvin's Beard and John Wesley's Preaching Tabs, I want to see that show!
"And the bigots cried out 'there is party left for us!'"
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
"By John Calvin's Beard and John Wesley's Preaching Tabs"
SPK - what a magnificent oath! zounds!
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
The primaries are starting way too early. I kind of admire the UK election process. As I understand it, the election is called and held a few weeks later.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
The primaries are starting way too early. I kind of admire the UK election process. As I understand it, the election is called and held a few weeks later.
New Yorker, this is something I can directly agree with you on! The length of the campaign time of US federal elections is getting ridiculous. It almost seems like the minute one election ends, the campaign for the next one has already started. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
[ 01. October 2011, 18:39: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
Well, since the thread has been bumped... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Dick Morris: OBAMA MIGHT PULL OUT
quote:
I asked a top Democratic strategist if it were possible that President Obama might “pull a Lyndon Johnson” and soberly face the cameras, telling America that he has decided that the demands of partisan politics are interfering with his efforts to right our economy and that he has decided to withdraw to devote full time to our recovery. His answer: “Yes. It’s possible. If things continue as they are and have not turned around by January, it is certainly possible.”
Dick has predicted elsewhere Obama would lose in a landslide.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Dick Morris used to be a big shot Democratic strategist who worked with Bill Clinton until 1996 (and was the architect of Clinton's strategy of blending Democratic and Republican positions to appeal to independents), when he was fired when it came out that he had allowed a prostitute he was with to listen in on a conversation with the president. There was a big scandal about it at the time, but nobody outside the Beltway knew who he was, so it evaporated pretty quickly (along with his career). Since then he has pursued a career in punditry (he has a column in the New York Post--'nuff said), has been an occasional consultant to Republican candidates and has attacked both Clintons quite viciously.
[ 03. October 2011, 03:01: Message edited by: Timothy the Obscure ]
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by 205:
Well, since the thread has been bumped...
Dick Morris: OBAMA MIGHT PULL OUT
Who is Dick Morris? And why should I believe him?
He's a former Bill Clinton advisor, Fox News "Democrat", and noted foot fetishist. His most notable achievement in the field of politics was upstaging Bill Clinton in a sex scandal. (No small feat! Feet?) These days his whole schtick is making outrageous predictions and pronouncements.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Morris frequently changes his predictions. Obama will not drop out of the presidential race. Why would he? So far, nobody, not even a stalking horse like Dennis Kucinich, has stepped forward to challenge him in a primary.
Even if Obama drops out of the race, what Democratic politician has a better chance of winning the 2012 presidential election than the incumbent president? All of them will be open to the same criticism as Obama. Few of them will have the name recognition. Democrats disillusioned with Obama might hope he will be replaced by Hillary Clinton but it isn't going to happen.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
As much as I am irked by Obama's constant giving away the store in negotiations w/ the GOP thugs,
1. We liked him because he was a negotiator, an accomodator. I think those strengths probably served us well overseas, where we needed it. But it sure ain't working domestically. But...
2. I don't see any other Dem. w/ any other strategy that looks promising v. these thugs.
What I'd really like to see would be a change in the VP part of the ticket, so we might have someone well placed for 2016.
[ 03. October 2011, 04:18: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
What I'd really like to see would be a change in the VP part of the ticket, so we might have someone well placed for 2016.
I'm not so sure. The Vice Presidency is a dubious vehicle for grooming a Presidential successor. In post-war American politics there have been three attempts at this, one successful (George Bush senior) and two not (Nixon in 1960 and Humphrey in 1968).
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
As much as I am irked by Obama's constant giving away the store in negotiations w/ the GOP thugs
And so our President's call for civility remains unanswered.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
He only wanted the Republicans to be civil. His side can say whatever it wants. Obama, like most politicians, is a hypocrite.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
He only wanted the Republicans to be civil. His side can say whatever it wants. Obama, like most politicians, is a hypocrite.
I think you are way too parochial. ISTM that the real point is that Obama, like essentially all of humanity, is a hypocrite.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
ISTM that the real point is that Obama, like essentially all of humanity, is a hypocrite.
You've reminded me again why I ought post here: someone needs to be the exception to the rule.*
And if anyone believes much of what Dick Morris says...
hell, if anyone believes much of what ANYONE says.
Well then.
* ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
He only wanted the Republicans to be civil. His side can say whatever it wants. Obama, like most politicians, is a hypocrite.
Although not a particularly skilled one, unlike most politicians. Give the man his propers.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
He only wanted the Republicans to be civil. His side can say whatever it wants. Obama, like most politicians, is a hypocrite.
I'm not sure he limited it to Republicans. But if he did...well, let's see...which side of the aisle was the least civil?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
The primaries are starting way too early. I kind of admire the UK election process. As I understand it, the election is called and held a few weeks later.
Technically, this is really because the UK (and Australian) equivalent of 'primaries' happens within each political party, without any public involvement. The 'preselection' process, whereby a party decides who its candidates will be for parliamentary elections, happens WAY before the actual election. But most of the time the general public just sees the end result - which name the party puts forward for the ballot paper.
In Australia at least, the only time we tend to hear about preselections is when there's some kind of juicy controversy - most often when there's a high profile person being given a spot, and especially if this involves bumping a sitting MP out of the way to give the high profile person a 'safe' seat.
[ 06. October 2011, 07:35: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
And in the least surprising political news of the season, Sarah Palin won't be running for President.
She can still change her mind, though. The crazy dingbat. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
Maybe there'll be something exciting at the Convention, like a movement on the floor to add her to the ballot, with hundreds of people "spontaneously" starting to chant her name and holding up placards.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Lothiriel
Shipmate
# 15561
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
And in the least surprising political news of the season, Sarah Palin won't be running for President.
A very sad day for Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert.
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
my blog
Posts: 538 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Mar 2010
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lothiriel:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
And in the least surprising political news of the season, Sarah Palin won't be running for President.
A very sad day for Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert.
I don't think either of them will be short on material as long as Michele Bachmann and Rick Perry are still in the race.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
The best news recently is the evident gloominess and disappointment among Republicans over the announcement by Governor Christie of New Jersey that he will not run. He-- homely, overweight, abrasive, controversial, with less than two years experience in high office, and already a bit scandal-tinged-- had been envisioned as the next knight in shining armor, since Rick Perry of Texas (among heaven-knows how many other aspirants) seems to have been toppled from his high horse.
It is particularly amusing that the main reason for their sudden disillusionment with Perry is his insufficiently canonical record re illegal immigrants. Not that I like the guy one bit; but it seems to me that this is the last thing for which he should be considered vulnerable. When it comes to Latin-American immigrants (legal and otherwise), does any other State in the Union have more experience, or more at stake, than Texas?? And here are the Texans proceeding as though they're not quite the boogeymen that everyone else in the party is painting. And not for the first time, as I recall. Maybe the rest of the country should give a small sigh of relief over Texas's magisterial example, take a lesson from it, and concentrate on a few more real problems: heaven knows we have enough.
What's really hurting the Republicans (one hopes) is a collision between an American taste for spectacle and one-upmanship (e.g. the itch among other States to upstage Iowa and New Hampshire with even earlier rogue primaries), and an equally American attention deficit disorder and need for novelty. Presidential campaigns have become, in practice, almost two years long. Long before most of us enter the voting booth, we've become bored with all of them.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
The Republicans are lurching toward a candidate that is not completely repulsive, despite their best efforts. As a Democrat, I worry about that. Obama as been a truly awful President in many ways -- even Bush Senior was not so clueless as to let the S&L thieves get off unscathed. If memory serves, he sent over a thousand of them to Club Fed (and the magnitude of that theft was something like 1/40 that of the Wall Street crooks.)
If I were Obama, I would be very worried by the Wall Street protests -- the anger at his refusal to throw the bums in jail is not going away, and people's patience with his coziness with the super rich is pretty much exhausted. Even a venture capitalist doesn't look bad in comparison!
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
I, New Yorker, am very depressed today. I was hoping to see America's first female president after this election. But, alas, Sarah chose not to run.
Sigh.
So it looks like it's a Romney-Cain race now. Maybe Perry or one of the others can gain some momentum. Oh well, I'll be happy with either of them.
Romney would be attractive to Reagan Democrats. What about Cain? How many Democrats will vote for almost any Republican given how catastrophic Obama's regime has been?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
Obama said at his press conference this morning when asked about the lack of prosecutions that the actions of the banks were not illegal.
He has full confidence in the DOJ, he said.
We need a new consumer watchdog, he said.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Obama as been a truly awful President in many ways -- even Bush Senior was not so clueless as to let the S&L thieves get off unscathed.
I heard a non-wildly partisan guy on NPR talking about this some weeks ago: his take was a lot of the alleged wrongdoing wasn't prosecutorially actionable, but damned if I know.
And shame Sarah's out - she can really liven things up!
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Clint Boggis
Shipmate
# 633
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
I, New Yorker, am very depressed today. I was hoping to see America's first female president after this election. But, alas, Sarah chose not to run.
Sigh.
If you thought she had a realistic chance of being elected, you have a lower opinion of American voters and electoral process than I do.
Posts: 1505 | From: south coast | Registered: Jun 2001
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
Generally speaking, in the end, the American voters do the right thing. In 2008 we saw a horrible exception to this rule. In 2012 I have no doubt that they would have corrected their error by joyfully putting Sarah in the White House.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
She'd never have got there - the Secret Service would have accidentally assassinated her before she could take the oath. Not worth the risk that she might be as moronic an old slag as she looks.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
She'd never have got there - the Secret Service would have accidentally assassinated her before she could take the oath. Not worth the risk that she might be as moronic an old slag as she looks.
In this country, we don't assassinate Presidents because they are idiots. We assassinate them because they are competent and don't play ball with us.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
She'd never have got there - the Secret Service would have accidentally assassinated her before she could take the oath. Not worth the risk that she might be as moronic an old slag as she looks.
They didn't shoot Obama and, unlike Sarah Palin, he's a board certified moron.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
She'd never have got there - the Secret Service would have accidentally assassinated her before she could take the oath. Not worth the risk that she might be as moronic an old slag as she looks.
They didn't shoot Obama and, unlike Sarah Palin, he's a board certified moron.
What an interesting utterance. From what galaxy did that come?
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
She'd never have got there - the Secret Service would have accidentally assassinated her before she could take the oath. Not worth the risk that she might be as moronic an old slag as she looks.
They didn't shoot Obama and, unlike Sarah Palin, he's a board certified moron.
What an interesting utterance. From what galaxy did that come?
The Glennbekian system of the Limbaughmedia galaxy.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
Well see, there's your problem! We live in the Milky Way Galaxy, things are a bit different here... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Seriously, I don't see how one can view Palin as being the intellectual superior to Obama. I may think he's been spineless in his dealing with the GOP, but he's not an idiot.
As a displaced Alaskan, I can say with great certainty that Palin was at her limit as AK's governor (something she couldn't even see through to the end). Now she's little more than a celebrity with bat-shit crazy talking points that she would have no idea how to implement in real life: idea's that would NEVER work.
She may have the best legs in politics, but she's become a joke.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Even if Obama drops out of the race, what Democratic politician has a better chance of winning the 2012 presidential election than the incumbent president? All of them will be open to the same criticism as Obama. Few of them will have the name recognition. Democrats disillusioned with Obama might hope he will be replaced by Hillary Clinton but it isn't going to happen.
Dick Durbin, the "other" Illinois senator, would make a good candidate. He's vertically-challenged, though, if that makes any difference!
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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