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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: A 2012 US election thread
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
That case strongly points to the fact that health insurance is interstate commerce.

Maryland Fair Health Care case

Still no.

I have read the blog, and the case itself, and the issue of interstate commerce never comes up. I have actually searched the PDF of the ruling. The word “interstate” does not appear in the case. The word “commerce” only shows up in reference to the Chamber of Commerce. No one was challenging the constitutionality of ERISA. They were asking if a state statute which imposed a higher burden than ERISA was in conflict with ERISA. And the court found that it was, and struck down the state statute. The court never says one way or another if health care is interstate commerce. The court never says one way or another if Congress can require someone to buy healthcare, which is the issue before the Supreme Court. Even if it had made either of these points, it would be dicta, because those questions were never before the court in the first place, and it would be completely unnecessary for the court to comment one way or another in the resolution of the controversy.

If anything, ERISA illustrates the point that Congress using the commerce power to require people to buy a product is unprecedented. ERISA does not require any employer to provide a pension or health insurance for its employees. It simply states what rules an employer choosing to provide such a plan must follow.

You can argue that health care is part of interstate commerce all you want. If you found a case in which a court found that ERISA was a proper use of the commerce power, then you could cite that case to argue that health care is part of interstate commerce. But this case never addresses, strongly or otherwise, if heath care is interstate commerce. It just isn’t your case.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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Think about it. If health insurance is part of a state's plenary power, then ERISA should have been irrelevant and Maryland should have prevailed. The Maryland case means that states are severely limited in their ability to legislate health mandates. If that is so, then because ERISA prevails that means the power to legislate health mandates lies at the federal level through the powers that sustain ERISA.

You can't have a double negative, that states are limited because of federal pre-emption and the federal government is limited because of enumerated powers. That is circular reasoning. The power has to lie somewhere.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
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You are expanding ERISA’s preemptive language far beyond what it actually covers. The statute itself says that state laws which “relate to any employee benefit plan” are preempted by ERISA. It only regulates one kind of health insurance- insurance provided by an employee benefit plan. If you have private health insurance, student health insurance, or medicaid or medicare, ERISA doesn't touch you. It only preempts a law where a state tells an employee benefit plan what it must do. A broader state statute dealing with health care and not making any rules about how an employee benefit plan should be operated would not be preempted by ERISA. If what you are saying is true, then the Massachusetts health care reform law would have been struck down by a federal court. It hasn’t been.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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South Carolina got nailed a few years back over having insufficient Medicaid provision.

Massachusetts had to apply for an ERISA exemption, AIRC before it could roll out Romneycare. Maryland had more than a few people in Massachusetts worried.

Vermont has a full-blown Single Payer tax-funded plan in the works which is being held up by Obamacare and the issue of per-emption.

Obamacare is meant (logically) to preclude both employees and employers arbitraging employee status to avoid paying health premiums.

Either health care is a legitimate federal matter or is is a legitimate state matter, but states, the federal government and health insurers have an legitimate interest in avoiding attempts to avoid complying with the mandate though ERISA's provisions, a form of death by a thousand cuts.

It is may be trivial in a legal sense but it is deadly in an actuarial sense. Unity and universality of liability is everything if insurance is to work correctly. Since insurance is a form of aggregation, there is the poetic truth in the mirrored proposition that nobody must be left behind in terms of benefits and nobody must escape the liability for payment of insurance premiums.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
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OK, the case creates an interesting policy problem. And the existence ERISA itself may suggest that health care is interstate commerce, which is an issue for the lawyers at the Supreme Court to dance around. Had you kept it at that, I wouldn't have jumped in. It was your legal reasoning, in trying to use a case that never examines the federal government's power to regulate health insurance to prove that the federal government does have that power, that got me excited.

(Edit: Changed a word that was overly zealous on my part.)

[ 13. April 2012, 22:03: Message edited by: Og, King of Bashan ]

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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CorgiGreta
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Mr. Romney seems to be having a problem calculating the taxes due on his current return. He needs an extension.

For some reason, he has also been unwilling release any returns other than the one for 2010. Surely he can very access those returns. What seems to be the problem?

[ 13. April 2012, 23:09: Message edited by: CorgiGreta ]

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
OK, the case creates an interesting policy problem. And the existence ERISA itself may suggest that health care is interstate commerce, which is an issue for the lawyers at the Supreme Court to dance around. Had you kept it at that, I wouldn't have jumped in. It was your legal reasoning, in trying to use a case that never examines the federal government's power to regulate health insurance to prove that the federal government does have that power, that got me excited.

(Edit: Changed a word that was overly zealous on my part.)

I'm not a lawyer, so I apologize if I used legal lingo in unusual ways.

Your post is exactly what I was thinking. It is not a binding precedent, nor is there a clear statute law on the case, but the conclusions reached in the Maryland case are interesting for pointing to whose domain health insurance mandates fall into.

Because when Maryland tried to enact a comprehensive health insurance law using the most convenient tools at hand, it got told no, it couldn't do that. At the very least the Federal government has a significant role to play here if the Maryland was correct. It may very well be that health care in the US may wind up looking very much like Unemployment Insurance does: state-based but with federal standards and mandates.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
Mr. Romney seems to be having a problem calculating the taxes due on his current return. He needs an extension.

For some reason, he has also been unwilling release any returns other than the one for 2010. Surely he can very access those returns. What seems to be the problem?

The problem is that the returns for years prior to his planning a presidential campaign will probably indicate a very low effective tax rate, much lower than the typical middle-class working American. This is something of an image problem for s very wealthy presidential candidate from a party whose platform is that taxes on the rich are currently too high. The attack ads practically write themselves.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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Ah, the unforeseen repercussions of using aggressive accountants.

"And the wages of Sin are Death." [Devil]

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Ah, the unforeseen repercussions of using aggressive accountants.

"And the wages of Sin are Death." [Devil]

Perhaps, but what are the capital gains of sin, and are they taxed on a different schedule than wages? [Big Grin]

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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moron
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quote:
Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
What seems to be the problem?

I have to go with: the individual who instituted 'populist politicking' had a mother who did not love him adequately.
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Janine

The Endless Simmer
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We just took Louisiana for Ron Paul in this morning's Republican Caucus. Dr. Paul is supposed to be in Baton Rouge this evening, so the FG took off up there to see him.

'Course, having the majority of statewide delegates backing Paul when they go to the state convention in Shreveport in June doesn't guarantee a group of all Paul people going on to National in Tampa... the GOP establishment will do their best to fill in a lot of "Rmoney's" backers. But it's nice to have put a stake through four of the six congressional districts, and to have tied & taken half the delegates from the fifth.

It's been a very good day.

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Golden Key
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Janine--

Sincere question: what is it about Ron Paul that you like?

Thx.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
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Not so seriously...

I'd rather a Constitutionalist in the White House. For that matter, I'd rather mostly Constitutionalists in most elected positions in Washington.

I like the fact that he never took government money from his patients. His focus was, rather, to keep his overhead low and his practice efficient and to help people work out payments and things like that.

I like the fact that he invariably doesn't use all the money allotted for his office expenses. He actually returns money to the National Treasury.

Here's an amusing/extreme film about the Federal Reserve. Lots of people admire Ron Paul 'cause he doesn't like it and would like to kill it.

Paul wants to kill off "wars" like the "War on Drugs" and chuck the "Czars" and get rid of some Departments. We didn't have a Federal level Department of Energy or Education until fairly recent times. That stuff could be (should be) handled at the state level.

He would like to get the Feds out of people's private business.

I'll put together more later. Pretty soon, the champagne fumes will have cleared. [Big Grin]

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Not so seriously...
I like the fact that he never took government money from his patients. His focus was, rather, to keep his overhead low and his practice efficient and to help people work out payments and things like that.

I'm glad he endeavored to keep costs down, but refusing to accept Medicare and Medicaid only hurts the poor, nothing to brag about there. There are a heck of a lot of plastic surgeons driving Mercedes around Beverly Hills who can say the same.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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At least the Ron Paul delegates are going to make the Republican Convention entertaining.

Is it too much to ask that the Democratic Party provide the Paul Delegates with a media budget? [Devil]

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Crœsos
Shipmate
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Ron Paul gets a lot of credit on the basis of the "stopped clock" principle. In short, because he's opposed to the federal government existing he gets credit for stopping anything they're doing that's wrong.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
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The Dems joining us in droves will put their money where their votes are.

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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cliffdweller
Shipmate
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quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
The Dems joining us in droves will put their money where their votes are.

who is "us" Kemosabe?

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
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Those who'd like to see Ron Paul as President.

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'm glad he endeavored to keep costs down, but refusing to accept Medicare and Medicaid only hurts the poor, nothing to brag about there.

Yes, I wouldn't have any medical care if others followed suit. And if the gov't cut either one...
[Tear] [Help]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'm glad he endeavored to keep costs down, but refusing to accept Medicare and Medicaid only hurts the poor, nothing to brag about there.

Yes, I wouldn't have any medical care if others followed suit. And if the gov't cut either one...
[Tear] [Help]

I spent years without needed medical care before I finally qualified for Medicare. I truly don't understand those who are against some form of basic universal health care. Part of the reason costs are so freakin high here in the U.S. is because there are many uninsured who are among the working poor who can't afford insurance or regular health care. Those with chronic conditions end up in the E.R. when their conditions get out of control as a result of no regular care and that is the most expensive care on the planet. And I personally got dumped out of one E.R. due to lack of insurance and had to get admitted as an inpatient later - which was WAY more expensive. The major cause of bankruptcy in the U.S. is medical expenses. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Those who'd like to see Ron Paul as President.

Democrats who want to see Ron Paul elected president? Puh-leeze. Don't say "droves" -- let's see some actual numbers.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Those who'd like to see Ron Paul as President.

Democrats who want to see Ron Paul elected president? Puh-leeze. Don't say "droves" -- let's see some actual numbers.
I agree. I think Sober Preacher's point was that Dems should contribute to Paul's campaign as he'll make an effective spoiler v. Romney, thus insuring an Obama victory.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Mockingale
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quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Those who'd like to see Ron Paul as President.

Wait, you're serious?
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Those who'd like to see Ron Paul as President.

Democrats who want to see Ron Paul elected president? Puh-leeze. Don't say "droves" -- let's see some actual numbers.
I agree. I think Sober Preacher's point was that Dems should contribute to Paul's campaign as he'll make an effective spoiler v. Romney, thus insuring an Obama victory.
Is there any indication that Ron Paul will run as a third candidate?
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Crœsos
Shipmate
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quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
Is there any indication that Ron Paul will run as a third candidate?

Paul is being actively courted by the Constitution Party, which has the existing party structure to get their candidate on the ballot in most states, but Paul himself has not expressed any interest whatsoever in their offer. Most observers guess that Paul isn't so much running for President as he is running in order to get his ideas accepted into the eventual Republican platform.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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romanlion
editorial comment
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quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
I spent years without needed medical care before I finally qualified for Medicare. I truly don't understand those who are against some form of basic universal health care. Part of the reason costs are so freakin high here in the U.S. is because....

when you subsidise something, people want more of it, and prices go up.

The explosion in the cost of medical care is directly proportional to GovCo.'s involvement therein.

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
when you subsidise something, people want more of it, and prices go up.

The explosion in the cost of medical care is directly proportional to GovCo.'s involvement therein.

Interestingly, this matter has been studied and it appears that the real driver of care is supply rather than demand in the case of medicine. This is unusual, but not as odd as it at first sounds.

The people who order tests are the doctors, not the patients. So, in areas where there are more doctors, there is more medical care delivered. Routine visits expand to fill the time available, as it turns out.

It is reasonable to ask how we should factor this into our medical care system. I don't really have any clear ideas on the matter. But it is worthwhile to start our inquiry from a solid basis of fact.

--Tom Clune

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This space left blank intentionally.

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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
when you subsidise something, people want more of it, and prices go up.

The explosion in the cost of medical care is directly proportional to GovCo.'s involvement therein.

The mind of someone who would think "I don't need triple bypass surgery, but I'll get it anyway since it's on sale" is only slightly less twisted than someone who hears such an explanation and considers it perfectly reasonable.

Medical care is not fun. Most people will avoid it unless necessary. Making it cheaper does not alter this fact.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Horseman Bree
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The cost of medical attention in the US is high largely because it is driven by a) insurance companies requiring huge amounts of paperwork as they try to pass costs off to someone else, and by b) litigation, which is always going to be higher cost in the medical field, since so much is opinion rather than fact.

We certainly do not have to do the paperwork associated with itemising every piece of nosewipe that is required for accounting purposes to the south.

And we haven't (yet) acquired the need to litigate about overly-warm coffee or whatever.

This has been asserted in most comparisons to other nations' costs (although I don't have specific research to quote).

A lot of Americans don't believe anything stated by such bodies as the UN/WHO or by nationals of other countries, so this fact has never percolated down to the voter level

Otherwise, how would you account for the idea that the Canadian governments spend less per capita on helath care than do the US ones, while achieving slightly better outcomes, with all the insurance expenditures in the US being added on top of that.

Is the Canadian population just naturally more healthy than the US one, are the Canadian governments better managers than the US ones or is the insurance-plus-litigation culture of the US a contributing factor?

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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Is the Canadian population just naturally more healthy than the US one, are the Canadian governments better managers than the US ones or is the insurance-plus-litigation culture of the US a contributing factor?

Yes.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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There is an interesting test case for this. Vermont has enacted a full-blown single-payer health plan, due to come into effect in 2017. The US is no longer the land of private health insurance for working people.

It will be interesting to see how Vermont's health outcomes improve and if they converge to a Canadian norm.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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moron
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
It is reasonable to ask how we should factor this into our medical care system. I don't really have any clear ideas on the matter.

Geez and here I hoped just killing the lawyers would be adequate.
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
I spent years without needed medical care before I finally qualified for Medicare. I truly don't understand those who are against some form of basic universal health care. Part of the reason costs are so freakin high here in the U.S. is because....

when you subsidise something, people want more of it, and prices go up.

The explosion in the cost of medical care is directly proportional to GovCo.'s involvement therein.

Yeah, it's all those whiners sucking up free colonoscopies that's driving up the cost of health care. Yeah, that's it. I know I'd get one if only it were free. No, wait a minute, it is free under my plan. So why haven't I rushed right out to get one? hmmmm.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Mockingale
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# 16599

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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
The cost of medical attention in the US is high largely because it is driven by a) insurance companies requiring huge amounts of paperwork as they try to pass costs off to someone else, and by b) litigation, which is always going to be higher cost in the medical field, since so much is opinion rather than fact.

Problem is that the doctor and insurance lobbies have been howling about litigation and "tort reform" for decades and many states have put in place caps on recovery, requirements that you have an independent practitioner sign off on the merit of your case (few doctors are willing to stick their necks out like that against their colleagues), and heightened standards of pleading and proof, the net result being that it's very hard to sue for malpractice or to find a lawyer who will sue for you, and if you win, you're not going to get a whole lot.

Lost both your legs and live in unbelievable pain because your surgeon got tanked before operating and botched a simple procedure? Too bad, here's $100,000.

And did this curb medical costs and insurance premiums? Nope.

Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
The cost of medical attention in the US is high largely because it is driven by a) insurance companies requiring huge amounts of paperwork as they try to pass costs off to someone else, and by b) litigation, which is always going to be higher cost in the medical field, since so much is opinion rather than fact.

The other factor is the uninsured, who do, of course, receive health care-- but thru the ER system, which is the least effective and most expensive way to address health care needs. Those exploding ER costs are then, of course, passed on to all of us as both consumers and taxpayers.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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art dunce
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There are very few Democrats that will vote for a candidate (Paul) who signed the Susan B. Anthony pledge. He also supports the "Sanctity of Life act" and the "We the People act" neither of which is acceptable to most Democrats.

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Ego is not your amigo.

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CorgiGreta
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Arguably (I know it's a dead horse) those stands violate the notion that "He would like to get the Feds out of people's private business."
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Niteowl

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
I spent years without needed medical care before I finally qualified for Medicare. I truly don't understand those who are against some form of basic universal health care. Part of the reason costs are so freakin high here in the U.S. is because....

when you subsidise something, people want more of it, and prices go up.

The explosion in the cost of medical care is directly proportional to GovCo.'s involvement therein.

So why is the cost of medical care cheaper in countries that subsidize it than in the U.S.? Sorry, but I don't buy it. Our system in the U.S. drives costs up at everyone's expense - but a very real physical sense for those who can't afford insurance or pay cash for medical care. I've been there, so please don't tell me different. I've also worked as an auditor in a major medical center where our prices went up to make up for the masses who turned up in the E.R and couldn't pay the bill. And those who can pay cash pay double or triple what the insurance companies pay. Our system is horrible, even if the care is good for those who can afford it or have insurance. The care sucks for those who can't.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Niteowl

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quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
The cost of medical attention in the US is high largely because it is driven by a) insurance companies requiring huge amounts of paperwork as they try to pass costs off to someone else, and by b) litigation, which is always going to be higher cost in the medical field, since so much is opinion rather than fact.

Problem is that the doctor and insurance lobbies have been howling about litigation and "tort reform" for decades and many states have put in place caps on recovery, requirements that you have an independent practitioner sign off on the merit of your case (few doctors are willing to stick their necks out like that against their colleagues), and heightened standards of pleading and proof, the net result being that it's very hard to sue for malpractice or to find a lawyer who will sue for you, and if you win, you're not going to get a whole lot.

Lost both your legs and live in unbelievable pain because your surgeon got tanked before operating and botched a simple procedure? Too bad, here's $100,000.

And did this curb medical costs and insurance premiums? Nope.

Not to mention that in the states that have passed such legislation with caps have seen increased insurance costs, not less.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Those who'd like to see Ron Paul as President.

Democrats who want to see Ron Paul elected president? Puh-leeze. Don't say "droves" -- let's see some actual numbers.
I agree. I think Sober Preacher's point was that Dems should contribute to Paul's campaign as he'll make an effective spoiler v. Romney, thus insuring an Obama victory.
My point was that Ron Paul is crazy and some of his positions are nuttier than a fruitcake. He has written six books on Supply-Side (Austrian) economics which means his economic views are contrary to the interests, both personal and collective, of the majority of Americans. Get him started on Social Security/Medicare and watch the seniors vote melt away. Meanwhile the RNC and senior party leaders would be beside themselves trying to shut him up. It would be hilarious.

I half-jokingly suggested that the Democratic National Committee should give Ron Paul a media budget. It would be a more cost effective measure to ensure an Obama victory than a host of attack ads.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Timothy the Obscure

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Here is an entertaining (if occasionally cringe-making) opportunity to see Ron Paul babbling like the drooling idiot he is (with regard to economics, at any rate) in a debate with Paul Krugman.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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Crœsos
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Here's an excerpt from Krugman's blog comment on Ron Paul's Roman example:

quote:
Actually, though, appeals to what supposedly happened somewhere in the distant past are quite common on the goldbug side of economics. And it’s kind of telling.

I mean, history is essential to economic analysis. You really do want to know, say, about the failure of Argentina’s convertibility law, of the effects of Chancellor Brüning’s dedication to the gold standard, and many other episodes.

Somehow, though, people like Ron Paul don’t like to talk about events of the past century, for which we have reasonably good data; they like to talk about events in the dim mists of history, where we don’t really know what happened. And I think that’s no accident. Partly it’s the attempt of the autodidact to show off his esoteric knowledge; but it’s also the fact that because we don’t really know what happened — what really did go down during the Diocletian era? — you can project what you think should have happened onto the sketchy record, then claim vindication for whatever you want to believe.



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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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Is is bad that I wanted to scream at Rep. Paul that he was flat wrong about history within the first two minutes? The US did not pay down its raw debt after WWII, it outgrew it so that existing debt payments were no longer a burden. Every other country did the same thing, except for Germany and Japan which plain out defaulted and we didn't want to repeat Versailles.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Is is bad that I wanted to scream at Rep. Paul that he was flat wrong about history within the first two minutes? The US did not pay down its raw debt after WWII, it outgrew it so that existing debt payments were no longer a burden. Every other country did the same thing, except for Germany and Japan which plain out defaulted and we didn't want to repeat Versailles.

That was also mentioned on Krugman's blog:

quote:
A bit of meta on my “debate” with Ron Paul; I think it’s a perfect illustration of a point I’ve thought about a lot, the uselessness of face-to-face debates.

Think about it: you approach what is, in the end, a somewhat technical subject in a format in which no data can be presented, in which there’s no opportunity to check facts (everything Paul said about growth after World War II was wrong, but who will ever call him on it?). So people react based on their prejudices. If Ron Paul got on TV and said “Gah gah goo goo debasement! theft!” — which is a rough summary of what he actually did say — his supporters would say that he won the debate hands down; I don’t think my supporters are quite the same, but opinions may differ.



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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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I finished listening to Rep. Paul. My ears are bleeding.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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IconiumBound
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# 754

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Since the topic of health care costs has arisen it gives me a chance to share some research I have done. The site below (scroll down to exhibit 10) has the health care costs as a percentage of The Gross Domestic Product (GDP) for most of the developed nations. The interesting thing is that the cost has been separated into public and private; that is, government and insurers.
This chart shows that the US health care public costs are in line with most of the other nations but when the private costs are added the US is twice the costs of the other countries.
I wonder why this has been overlooked in the debate?

http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/oecd042111.cfm

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Crœsos
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The massive amount of public money the U.S. spends on health care, despite protestations that the U.S. healthcare system is privately funded (except for Medicare and the VA) was brought up repeatedly during the health care debate. I suspect it was largely ignored in part because it didn't fit with the pre-existing narrative. Of course, if you were to re-create exhibit 10 today it would look very different, not because of massive shifts in health care spending but because the GDP (and spending is given in percent of GDP) of most of those countries has either stagnated or declined.

In other electoral news, Newt Gingrich has abandonned his presidential campaign in favor of a younger, healthier campaign. [Big Grin]

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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irish_lord99
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# 16250

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
In other electoral news, Newt Gingrich has abandonned his presidential campaign in favor of a younger, healthier campaign. [Big Grin]

[Killing me] [Killing me]

It was bound to happen, his campaign did have a terminal illness after all. [Biased]

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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

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