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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: A 2012 US election thread
Soror Magna
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The Log Cabin Republicans have chimed in with advice for Mitt Romney:

quote:
“Governor Mitt Romney’s statement in opposition to not just marriage but civil unions jeopardizes his ability to win moderates, women and younger voters, especially as a large majority of Americans favor some form of relationship recognition for their LGBT friends and neighbors. Ultimately, the response of the Republican candidates this election cycle will determine not just endorsements by Log Cabin Republicans, but the votes of millions of Americans who are simply tired of the culture wars.”
Republicans: Campaigning Against Marriage is a Losing Strategy

"Tired of the culture wars" seems to be coming up more often. Maybe Americans will eventually get tired of the War on Drugs and the War on Terror and the Wars on Other Abstract Concepts. OliviaG

edit typo

[ 15. May 2012, 05:24: Message edited by: OliviaG ]

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moron
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quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
Republicans: Campaigning Against Marriage is a Losing Strategy

quote:
That said, Americans can be certain that the President would not have made this decision at this time if it were not in his best political interests.
Obama has been so flawlessly competent and all. [Roll Eyes]


On Bill Moyer's relatively new show this week Kathleen Hall Jamieson was discussing how to assess when you were hearing bullshit from politicians: it was SO refreshing when, while providing examples by parsing two related but opposing political ads, she chose to demonstrate how the Obama campaign had misled before she demonstrated how the Romney campaign had misled.

Obviously she is ignorant of the template. [Smile]

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by 205:
On Bill Moyer's relatively new show this week Kathleen Hall Jamieson was discussing how to assess when you were hearing bullshit from politicians: it was SO refreshing when, while providing examples by parsing two related but opposing political ads, she chose to demonstrate how the Obama campaign had misled before she demonstrated how the Romney campaign had misled.

Obviously she is ignorant of the template. [Smile]

The "Both Sides Do It", "Shape of the Earth: Opinions Differ" template? I thought that was taught first year in journalism school.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
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I was making the point that gay marriage is a losing issue to a fellow Republican yesterday; I believe that it is, and politics aside, I have no problem with gay marriage.

His response: if it is a losing issue, then why do anti-gay marriage referendums generally pass, even in states like California?

Could it be that this is one of those "how could Nixon have won, I don't know anyone who voted for him" issues?

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I was making the point that gay marriage is a losing issue to a fellow Republican yesterday; I believe that it is, and politics aside, I have no problem with gay marriage.

His response: if it is a losing issue, then why do anti-gay marriage referendums generally pass, even in states like California?

I guess it's a question of the time-frame being considered. Using the specific example of California, in 2000 the vote for Proposition 22 was 59-37 (54% voter turnout). In 2008 Proposition 8 (which did the same thing but as an amendment to the state constitution rather than a law) passed 52-48 (79% voter turnout). That's a swing of eighteen percentage points in just eight years. Any Republican strategists thinking beyond the current election cycle have to consider the consequences of being seen as the future's equivalent of the anti-Suffage or pro-Segregation party.

On the other hand, these ballot referenda are usually advanced strategically in states where the polling is still favorable. This could simply be a last ditch effort to take advantage of a rapidly closing window of popularity. A counterpoint question is why no U.S. state (other than California, which is still trying to make up its damned mind!) that has legalized same-sex marriage has ever reversed that decision? If such unions are abhorrent to American voters, wouldn't the hotbeds of anti-gay-marriage activism be places like Iowa or New York that are already groaning under fabulous homo tyranny? Yet what we see on the ground is the reverse, with ballot initiatives only advanced in states that already don't recognize same-sex marriages.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Using the specific example of California, in 2000 the vote for Proposition 22 was 59-37 (54% voter turnout). In 2008 Proposition 8 (which did the same thing but as an amendment to the state constitution rather than a law) passed 52-48 (79% voter turnout). That's a swing of eighteen percentage points in just eight years.

You must be talking about Californian percentage points. On this coast, it comes to considerably less...

--Tom Clune

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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
if it is a losing issue, then why do anti-gay marriage referendums generally pass, even in states like California?

Notice how the goalposts have moved. Horrified that the idea would be accepted in court, they called for same-sex marriage to be enacted by legislation. When that happened, they said it wasn't good enough and called for a referendum. One of these days, a referendum will pass, or at least a proposed het-only constitutional amendment will fail the needed majority. Will that be the end of it, or will they demand a favorable encyclical from the Vatican?

Gay issues aren't the only ones in which the GOP has deferred to its loony religious wing. Regarding abortion and family planning, their platform is equally at odds with an ostensible admiration of self-determination and personal responsibility. The party needs the religious right, and the religious right needs the party. It's a classic co-dependency. Closet cases are among the last to come around, and the Republican party is full of them (so are many pulpits). I think in the end it is a matter for psychologists rather than politicos to predict. If some of these guys can't build their careers on gay-bashing anymore, they'll no longer know who they are and will need to find a whole new identity.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Using the specific example of California, in 2000 the vote for Proposition 22 was 59-37 (54% voter turnout). In 2008 Proposition 8 (which did the same thing but as an amendment to the state constitution rather than a law) passed 52-48 (79% voter turnout). That's a swing of eighteen percentage points in just eight years.

You must be talking about Californian percentage points. On this coast, it comes to considerably less...

--Tom Clune

I simply meant the difference between a measure passing by a margin of twenty-two percentage points and passing by four percentage points.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I was making the point that gay marriage is a losing issue to a fellow Republican yesterday; I believe that it is, and politics aside, I have no problem with gay marriage.

His response: if it is a losing issue, then why do anti-gay marriage referendums generally pass, even in states like California?

Note that the referendum in question failed four years ago (at least in trend-setting California). The landscape on this particular issue, especially among young voters, is changing rapidly. I've noticed a radical shift even among the 18-19 year old conservative evangelicals I teach over just the last two years.

Whether that shift will be enough to change the trajectory of the election or not is something for the numbers-crunchers to say. It does seem, however, to have reenergized the youth vote which was so crucial in 2008 and had been flagging.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Crœsos
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Hey, remember Americans Elect? Whatever happened to them?

quote:
Americans Elect, the deep-pocketed nonprofit group that set out to nominate a centrist third-party presidential ticket, admitted early Tuesday that its ballyhooed online nominating process had failed.

The group had qualified for the general election ballot in 27 states, and had generated concern among Democrats and Republicans alike that it could wreak havoc on a close election between President Barack Obama and Mitt Romney.

But just after a midnight deadline Monday, the group acknowledged that its complicated online nominating process had failed to generate sufficient interest to push any of the candidates who had declared an interest in its nomination over the threshold in its rules.

“Because of this, under the rules that AE delegates ratified, the primary process would end today,” said the group’s Kahlil Byrd in a statement issued at 12:01 a.m.

New York Times columnist/blogger Paul Krugman performs the post-mortem:

quote:
What went wrong? Well, there actually is a large constituency in America for a political leader who is willing to take responsible positions — to call for more investment in the nation’s education and infrastructure, to propose bringing down the long-run deficit through a combination of spending cuts and tax increases. And there is in fact a political leader ready and willing (maybe too willing) to play that role; his name is Barack Obama.

So why Americans Elect? Because there exists in America a small class of professional centrists, whose stock in trade is denouncing the extremists in both parties and calling for a middle ground. And this class cannot, as a professional matter, admit that there already is a centrist party in America, the Democrats — that the extremism they decry is all coming from one side of the political fence. Because if they admitted that, they’d just be moderate Democrats, with no holier-than-thou pedestal to stand on.

Americans Elect was created to appeal to this class of professional centrists — which meant that it was doomed to go nowhere.

So, amazingly, a political movement created mostly to appeal only to professional pundits failed to get sufficient interest from a large number of voters? Who would have guessed?

For amusement value, Buzzfeed has compiled a collection of these professional centrists gushing over the way Americans Elect was going to Change Everything. It would be amusing except for the fact that these people are paid to make predictions like this and they're all, as far as I know, still employed.

[ 16. May 2012, 00:05: Message edited by: Crœsos ]

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
His response: if it is a losing issue, then why do anti-gay marriage referendums generally pass, even in states like California?

It's important to remember that California is not liberal through and through. The inland empire, the San Joaquin Valley, Orange County and San Diego all tend to be conservative.
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moron
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It's important to remember that California is not liberal through and through.

Hope remains. [Votive]


And in case you missed it:

quote:
No balloons. No banners. No cheering crowd. No need for a victory speech to a throng of adoring and loyal supporters.

As he sat in a prison cell in Texas, Keith Judd, inmate # 11593-051, was winning 40% of the vote in the West Virginia Democratic primary last week amid whatever fanfare one could receive in such a place.

snip

"It's about time,' he said. "The message is out there."

"The poor and middle class are being controlled by the wealthy. It's like Monopoly," he said. "When one person gets all the money, the game is over."

snip

"I think some people really voted for me, not just against Obama"

[Killing me]
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Crœsos
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And it's [semi-]official: Mitt Romney now has enough delegates to mathematically insure his nomination, proving that Republican primary voters hate him less than any of the alternative candidates.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
And it's [semi-]official: Mitt Romney now has enough delegates to mathematically insure his nomination, proving that Republican primary voters hate him less than any of the alternative candidates.

Does this mean I can ignore the circus for around 5 months? I don't know there's much chance of anything interesting happening in the meantime for us overseas folk.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Does this mean I can ignore the circus for around 5 months? I don't know there's much chance of anything interesting happening in the meantime for us overseas folk.

Depends on how good you are at filtering out idiocy. For example, the Romney campaign recently released an iPod app that would superimpose the Romney slogan over the picture of various supporters. The problem? Apparently no one at the Romney campaign knows how to spell "America" or knows how to use spell check.

Oops!

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Og, King of Bashan

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I'd say he just answered in the positive, orfeo. Unless the economy collapses or there is a major attack, we are going to be firmly in silly season until the conventions.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
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Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

quote:
His response: if it is a losing issue, then why do anti-gay marriage referendums generally pass, even in states like California?
The opponents of gay marriage tend to be much better organized and more passionate about their views than most who are for it. (Obviously many gay people and their closest allies are passionate for gay marriage, but many others who answer "pro-gay marriage" on a survey aren't likely to take the time to go to a poll.)

Religious groups (Catholics, Mormons and Baptists) are able to get out the vote in a way that Human Rights Campaign or Soulforce can't as for them it's a matter of defending God's will.

Also, opponents also tend to be older and older people are much more likely to vote than younger people.

[ 30. May 2012, 19:11: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]

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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
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Soror Magna
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OK, so Donald Trump is back again, playing the racist birther and affirmative action cards. Is he stupid or delusional? Romney's cat's-paw or just a loud-mouthed asshole? Petty revenge for the WH correspodents' dinner jokes? He wouldn't be saying it if he didn't think someone would be listening, but who is left who would decide their vote on those issues? OliviaG

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Jonathan Strange
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quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
OK, so Donald Trump is back again, playing the racist birther and affirmative action cards. Is he stupid or delusional?

(They're not mutually exclusive, of course.) I think Trump genuinely believes what he says - that 'everyone' thinks Obama is Kenyan. Trouble is that Trump's 'everyone' is his circle of yes-men who agree with his moronic positions.

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"Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight,
At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more,
When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death,
When he shakes his mane, we shall have spring again"

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ToujoursDan

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I think neither. Trump's an attention whore.

Last time this bubbled up Trupe said he was sending people to Hawaii to prove that Obama wasn't born there, but he hasn't come forth with any evidence. In fact, he doesn't even mention his Hawaiian sources anymore.

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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Apparently no one at the Romney campaign knows how to spell "America" or knows how to use spell check.

Oh my God. How embarrassment.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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irish_lord99
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quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
Is he stupid or delusional? Romney's cat's-paw or just a loud-mouthed asshole? Petty revenge for the WH correspodents' dinner jokes?

Yes. [Biased]

[ 31. May 2012, 04:47: Message edited by: irish_lord99 ]

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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

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moron
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At this point in the thread I find myself thinking most about Tom Clune's take on Romney:

are you going to vote for him or Obama?

Why?


(I predict Tom will go Romney but unfortunately have no affiliation with either.)

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by 205:
At this point in the thread I find myself thinking most about Tom Clune's take on Romney:

are you going to vote for him or Obama?

Why?

(I predict Tom will go Romney but unfortunately have no affiliation with either.)

No, I'll vote for Obama. I don't think that Obama is a better POTUS than Romney would be, but I am seriously concerned about the excesses of the rest of the Republican party. I just don't want to see the "my way or the highway" crowd get any more influence than they have already. If I think too much about Obama's record of killing Americans on foreign soil with no due process or his sorry response to the Wall Street crisis, I'm hard-pressed to justify giving him a vote. But I probably will anyway.

--Tom Clune

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Carex
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
...If I think too much about Obama's record of killing Americans on foreign soil with no due process or his sorry response to the Wall Street crisis, I'm hard-pressed to justify giving him a vote.

And you think those would have been handled better under a Republican?
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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
...If I think too much about Obama's record of killing Americans on foreign soil with no due process or his sorry response to the Wall Street crisis, I'm hard-pressed to justify giving him a vote.

And you think those would have been handled better under a Republican?
Yes. Both of these were handled uniquely badly by Obama. George HW Bush had a similar banking scandal on his watch, and he imprisoned over a thousand officers of the S&Ls. Nobody has denied due process to Americans by assassinating them from drone strikes or any comparable method AFAIK. This was an even more shocking usurpation of the rule of law than GW Bush's illegal wiretapping of everybody under the sun -- a practice that Obama has apparently continued.

I am willing to cut Obama some slack in not closing Guantanimo like he promised because it was politically difficult. But, when I voted for him the first time, I actually thought that he would do the hard things that were right. He seems to do the hard things that are anti-democratic, and that's a huge problem. Or so ISTM.

--Tom Clune

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Antisocial Alto
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quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
...If I think too much about Obama's record of killing Americans on foreign soil with no due process or his sorry response to the Wall Street crisis, I'm hard-pressed to justify giving him a vote.

And you think those would have been handled better under a Republican?
Heh. I was attending a crazy-liberal arts college during the 2000 election, and I remember a lot of Nader supporters on campus saying that functionally there was no difference between Republicans and Democrats (Bush and Gore, specifically) and we should all vote Green to send a message to the establishment.

I would have liked to meet some of those kids again in 2003, when the US was invading Iraq because a Saudi living in Afghanistan had attacked us, and ask them if they still thought there was no difference between a Gore and a Bush presidency.

(I am kind of with Tom here- just because Romney or McCain might have done something worse, it doesn't make the drone strikes any less horrifying.)

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Gramps49
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Heard this mentioned on NPR this evening. Did you know that Obama is polling about even with Romney in Utah? That is because of the Hispanic population. Likewise there are other states with strong Hispanic populations that were formerly considered strong Republican that just might go Democratic because of the Latino vote.

Fact is, Obama strategists are now saying he can win on a Western Strategy meaning he could lose Florida and Ohio (unlikely) and still win.

Republicans have come out with such a strong anti immigration position it is simply unlikely Romney will be able to make any inroads with the Hispanics.

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Timothy the Obscure

Mostly Friendly
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by 205:
At this point in the thread I find myself thinking most about Tom Clune's take on Romney:

are you going to vote for him or Obama?

Why?

(I predict Tom will go Romney but unfortunately have no affiliation with either.)

No, I'll vote for Obama. I don't think that Obama is a better POTUS than Romney would be, but I am seriously concerned about the excesses of the rest of the Republican party. I just don't want to see the "my way or the highway" crowd get any more influence than they have already. If I think too much about Obama's record of killing Americans on foreign soil with no due process or his sorry response to the Wall Street crisis, I'm hard-pressed to justify giving him a vote. But I probably will anyway.

--Tom Clune

If it looks like there's any possibility of Oregon going red (very unlikely), I'll vote for Obama. If not, I'll vote Green (changed my party registration last week).

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Heard this mentioned on NPR this evening. Did you know that Obama is polling about even with Romney in Utah? That is because of the Hispanic population. Likewise there are other states with strong Hispanic populations that were formerly considered strong Republican that just might go Democratic because of the Latino vote.

But Newt Gingrich said Romney will win at least forty percent of the Latino vote. Saying otherwise would imply that Mr. Gingrich is just a fatuous gasbag pulling spin out of his ass!

Oh, right.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
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quote:

I am willing to cut Obama some slack in not closing Guantanimo like he promised because it was politically difficult.

Obama didn't close Gitmo because Congress (including most Democrats) overrode him by denying the funds to close the camp and relocate the prisoners to domestic prisons.

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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
quote:

I am willing to cut Obama some slack in not closing Guantanimo like he promised because it was politically difficult.

Obama didn't close Gitmo because Congress (including most Democrats) overrode him by denying the funds to close the camp and relocate the prisoners to domestic prisons.
And, as is his wont, he just folded in the presence of opposing views. He did the same thing with the single-payer option on healthcare. The good Presidents in our history make their case when faced with opposition. The great Presidents make their case and steamroll te opposition. Obama seems reluctant to use the bully pulpit at all. To my mind, that makes him a weak President.

Given the excesses of the Republican thugs in the House, it is stunningly counter-productive to have such a weak President right at the time that we have such unruly contrarians willing to bring our government to a stand-still in the middle of a national economic crisis. About the only thing positive one may be able to say about his Presidency is that Jimmmy Carter may finally make it out of the cellar as the worst living POTUS.

--Tom Clune

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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
New Yorker
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
About the only thing positive one may be able to say about his Presidency is that Jimmmy Carter may finally make it out of the cellar as the worst living POTUS.

Damn! It must be the Spirit of Pentecost. You and I agree on something!

As for Obama being weak and giving in, wasn't he supposed to be a uniter rather than a divider?

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
And, as is his wont, he just folded in the presence of opposing views. He did the same thing with the single-payer option on healthcare. The good Presidents in our history make their case when faced with opposition. The great Presidents make their case and steamroll te opposition. Obama seems reluctant to use the bully pulpit at all. To my mind, that makes him a weak President.

The idea that Presidential rhetoric can move a significant number of Congressional votes seems as common as it is misguided. As a former Senator, I give Obama at least the credit to know that making a strongly worded speech isn't going to get James Inhofe to change his vote. Heck, that wouldn't even get Olympia Snow to change her vote.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
And, as is his wont, he just folded in the presence of opposing views. He did the same thing with the single-payer option on healthcare. The good Presidents in our history make their case when faced with opposition. The great Presidents make their case and steamroll te opposition. Obama seems reluctant to use the bully pulpit at all. To my mind, that makes him a weak President.

The idea that Presidential rhetoric can move a significant number of Congressional votes seems as common as it is misguided. As a former Senator, I give Obama at least the credit to know that making a strongly worded speech isn't going to get James Inhofe to change his vote. Heck, that wouldn't even get Olympia Snow to change her vote.
The bully pulpit isn't intended to change the minds of Senators. It is intended to change the views of the electorate. That either changes the mind of the Senator or changes the Senator. Senators themselves are moved by force or pork. LBJ was a master of that use of the Presidency.

--Tom Clune

[ 01. June 2012, 15:12: Message edited by: tclune ]

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
The bully pulpit isn't intended to change the minds of Seantors. It is intended to change the views of the electorate.

It's not clear it can even do that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tclune:
That either changes the mind of the Senator or changes the Senator. Senators themselves are moved by force or pork. LBJ was a master of that use of the Presidency.

Again, popular opinion is contrary to actual events.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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ToujoursDan

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
quote:

I am willing to cut Obama some slack in not closing Guantanimo like he promised because it was politically difficult.

Obama didn't close Gitmo because Congress (including most Democrats) overrode him by denying the funds to close the camp and relocate the prisoners to domestic prisons.
And, as is his wont, he just folded in the presence of opposing views. He did the same thing with the single-payer option on healthcare. The good Presidents in our history make their case when faced with opposition. The great Presidents make their case and steamroll te opposition. Obama seems reluctant to use the bully pulpit at all. To my mind, that makes him a weak President.

Given the excesses of the Republican thugs in the House, it is stunningly counter-productive to have such a weak President right at the time that we have such unruly contrarians willing to bring our government to a stand-still in the middle of a national economic crisis. About the only thing positive one may be able to say about his Presidency is that Jimmmy Carter may finally make it out of the cellar as the worst living POTUS.

--Tom Clune

You're confusing a President with a dictator.

ETA: Obama's whole schtick, whether you like or hate it, was to move beyond hard partisanship and embrace compromise. Those who believe he should somehow pound the bully pulpit and force Congress to do something Congress doesn't want to do, didn't pay attention to what he said during the campaign.

[ 01. June 2012, 18:05: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]

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moron
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
But, when I voted for him the first time, I actually thought that he would do the hard things that were right. He seems to do the hard things that are anti-democratic, and that's a huge problem.

The guy is IMNSHO very difficult to understand but my take is he just hasn't had enough 'managerial life experience' yet.


Anyway, not long ago Biden pointed out this election shows quite clearly the two opposing sides of US politics. The way I paraphrase is on the one hand you have avowed Statists and on the other limited government types.

At this writing I think Romney, even though he's not far right into the latter like some true conservatives want, will do a very respectable of highlighting the disparity during the debates and win the votes of the critical 'independents'.

I think Obama overreached and it's going to bite him in the butt, big time. (And we all know my track record of predicting things. [Smile] )

I also think Obama's efforts to demonize Romney will backfire as no matter what is said it's apparent he's at least a decent guy. Even Bill Clinton said as much.


Also, some pundits have suggested Obama may be desperate enough to dump Biden and have Hillary as Veep: I think that would garner him some (perhaps enough) votes as it would again become an 'historic' election.

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moron
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Pardon the verbosity but I forgot to mention I was in Wisconsin a few days ago: purely anecdotal but I saw a couple dozen Walker signs and not one Barrett sign - maybe just Evil Property Owners are able to communicate that way...
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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by 205:
... Also, some pundits have suggested Obama may be desperate enough to dump Biden and have Hillary as Veep: I think that would garner him some (perhaps enough) votes as it would again become an 'historic' election.

Only if they win. Lots of women have been candidates for vice-president. OliviaG

PS And there's really only two kinds of people: those who are binary, and those who are not.

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moron
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quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
PS And there's really only two kinds of people: those who are binary, and those who are not.

Gosh - not sure what you're getting at there.


Nonetheless I have yet another new prediction: Bill, knowing that Barackolypse's birth certificate will ultimately be proven forged, has decided to go off the reservation just enough to allow him future credibility when Hillary steps in to the save the day. It's his payback to her.

And less seriously I heard a recording of a recent Mitt stump speech and am now looking forward to the debates: it will be 'uh' and 'and' v. hardwon enthusiasm and it won't end well for the current President.

Plus Michael Reagan recently said something likely inane which now escapes my mind. [Hot and Hormonal]

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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Ignoring the Birther nonsense,

quote:
I also think Obama's efforts to demonize Romney will backfire as no matter what is said it's apparent he's at least a decent guy. Even Bill Clinton said as much.
If Romney raises so much as a finger against obamacare, the Democrats will be all over him in a heartbeat with very decent, very factual, very true quotes from Romney explaining and justifying Romneycare in Massachusetts. Romney was (rightly) proud of his achievement there when he signed the law, he said that a free ride for the uninsured who showed up at emergency rooms was irresponsible and unAmerican. He also said since no care is inhumane, a personal health manadate was the best solution.

I find it appalling that Romney is backing away from his greatest contribution to the welfare of Massachusetts and to the political discourse of the United States.

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Gramps49
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Obama a weak president. I don't think Bin Laden would agree to that. I don't think Qaddafi would either. I believe the Iranians are cursing his ability to hamper their nuclear program. He forewarned Arab leaders that they needed to pay heed to their people. Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, and Yemen have proven his point. Syria will probably be next. When he speaks people do listen.

Actually, in spite of the fact of an oppositional Congress he has been able to get many things accomplished domestically and internationally. Has he gotten everything he said he would do done? No. He is not a Lyndon Johnson nor is he a Ronald Reagan.

The keys to this next election will be minorities. Minorities got him elected. Minorities will reelect him. That is why he is the first president to come out in favor of marriage equality. That is why he has forced the Republicans to show their hand when it comes to equal pay for women. Hispanics will control much of the vote in Western states--what was once strong Republican states just might swing the other way because of Hispanic vote.

I think independents can see through the garbage that has been put up by the Republicans. They will reject the extreme right the GOP has put itself on.

The latest election maps show that he is only 53 electoral votes from winning. Romney is 79 votes away.

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by 205:
quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
PS And there's really only two kinds of people: those who are binary, and those who are not.

Gosh - not sure what you're getting at there.


I way I first saw this joke (and you have to read it, not hear it) is: "There are 10 kinds of people in this world -- those who understand binary and those who don't."

(Hint -- "10" does not mean ten.)

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New Yorker
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
They will reject the extreme right the GOP has put itself on.

That's rich since our nominee is Mitt Romney.
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moron
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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
They will reject the extreme right the GOP has put itself on.

That's rich since our nominee is Mitt Romney.
Aye: presumably the way they rejected Scott Walker.

That sucking sound you hear is not the sound of jobs going to Mexico (and lately I've grown fonder of Ross for giving us Bill) but rather the sound coming from Obama's chair when he rises.

I continue to wish him the best and imagine he'll find something else worthwhile to do come next January.


But I have to admit I'm disappointed with all his former promoters: last election we had a lot of fun... where are you all now?

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
They will reject the extreme right the GOP has put itself on.

That's rich since our nominee is Mitt Romney.
Heck, this Limey lefty can see that Romney isn't right-wing. Certainly not by GOP (Republican) standards.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Heck, this Limey lefty can see that Romney isn't right-wing. Certainly not by GOP (Republican) standards.

I'm not sure where this "Romney is really a moderate" idea comes from. Given his current positions, he's significantly more socially conservative than Reagan or either of the Presidents Bush, and his economic policies are pretty much in line with those of the most recent Bush.

Aside from all this, why is it assumed that a President Mitt will stand up to a Republican controlled House of Representatives when they pass something insanely regressive? Nothing we've seen of Romney so far shows him as a take-a-stand kind of guy, and he's especially not Mr. take-a-stand-that-will-hurt-you-with-Republican-voters. Regardless of who the "real" Mitt Romney is (a futile conjecture at this point), he'd govern as a far-right Republican because that's where his power base would be, and that's where his prospects of re-election will be.

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Gramps49
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We Americans love a divided government, The best way to do that is elect a Democratic congress and president
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MarsmanTJ
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quote:
Heck, this Limey lefty can see that Romney isn't right-wing. Certainly not by GOP (Republican) standards. [/QB]
Of course, amusingly to those of us in the UK, Obama is really rather right-wing when comparing his policies to some policies of our 'right-wing' Conservative party, which makes even a moderate Republican seem really rather hard-core...
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