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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: A 2012 US election thread
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Kel--
Yes, re loans!!! And I could see lots of people in the audience identifying with different parts of the speech--to the point of tears.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
As for the First Lady, yes, she was passionate in her praise for her husband, but what got me was the ways she made connections between their story and that of many of us right now. (I really could relate when she was talking about student loans:"We were so in love and so in debt...)
So I guess they couldn't sell off their inherited stocks to make ends meet...
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
I could drain my retirement account right now and pay off a huge chunk of my student loan debt (it's not like it's making any money in this market), but the tax penalty would be higher than the interest that I pay on the loans. So "poor" may have been a stretch, but I won't begrudge them for that choice.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
Michelle Obama's speech was well written and very well delivered. I was impressed that by going into the anecdotal details of her and Barack's family she was demonstrating why Mitt Romney was from another sort of life, the inherited rich.
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
So we all belong to the government now? How outrageous! I'd always thought the government belonged to us.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
New Yorker, I think you're misinterpreting the word "belong". In this case, it doesn't indicate ownership, but rather, something more akin to membership.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
And it exposes another key GOP myth-- one that dates back at least to Reagan's "starve the beast" rhetoric. The GOP speaks about government as if it were some entity outside of us-- some malevolent "other" bent on consuming our hopes & dreams. The DNC stresses that the government is us, it is community, it is people joining together for common cause.
The irony, of course, is that in a very real way "the government is us" rhetoric is more true of the GOP-- made up of wealthy billionaires who are able to buy and sell congressional rep-- than it is of the DNC.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
That's the problem and the divide: we conservatives say that the government has grown so out of control that it no longer is us. The left applauds that government growth and wants more.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
And it exposes another key GOP myth-- one that dates back at least to Reagan's "starve the beast" rhetoric. The GOP speaks about government as if it were some entity outside of us-- some malevolent "other" bent on consuming our hopes & dreams. The DNC stresses that the government is us, it is community, it is people joining together for common cause.
The irony, of course, is that in a very real way "the government is us" rhetoric is more true of the GOP-- made up of wealthy billionaires who are able to buy and sell congressional rep-- than it is of the DNC.
So is the government us or the other? It sounded like you were going for "us" in your first paragraph, but then in your second paragraph you ended up going back and deciding that it was "the other."
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
That's the problem and the divide: we conservatives say that the government has grown so out of control that it no longer is us.
Someone should have told the Republican presidents. Hoover, Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush I and Bush II all increased federal spending.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
And it exposes another key GOP myth-- one that dates back at least to Reagan's "starve the beast" rhetoric. The GOP speaks about government as if it were some entity outside of us-- some malevolent "other" bent on consuming our hopes & dreams. The DNC stresses that the government is us, it is community, it is people joining together for common cause.
The irony, of course, is that in a very real way "the government is us" rhetoric is more true of the GOP-- made up of wealthy billionaires who are able to buy and sell congressional rep-- than it is of the DNC.
So is the government us or the other? It sounded like you were going for "us" in your first paragraph, but then in your second paragraph you ended up going back and deciding that it was "the other."
yes, exactly.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
The "out-of-control" refers only to those periods when the government is out of Republican control; i.e., in the control of Democrats.
Only Republicans and the rich possess the know-how to spend money on the correct priorities. Democrats waste money on people and programs which fail to produce profits.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
That's the problem and the divide: we conservatives say that the government has grown so out of control that it no longer is us. The left applauds that government growth and wants more.
A significant counterexample, of course, would be to compare the percentage of children attending government schools in the good old 1950s with the percentage today. I don't find this development particularly regrettable, but must admit that (1) the government dominated children's education in those days and (2) it seemed to be working. I came out of the system well enough. You can well observe, of course, that in those days the common schools were more a local-government responsibility in the U.S. than they are now, but it was government.
As for the convention in Charlotte-- wow, just wow. It is probably true that national political conventions have become a carefully packaged product for media and public consumption, and we should bear this in mind. But on that basis, what has been placed before us? The contrasts are breathtaking. If this convention reflects the thinking and spirit of Obama, I like what I see and hear. There is no question in my mind which crowd, this or the one in Tampa, is more like that of heaven. One is dominated by white people moved by anger, rugged individualism, and greed. The other is a cosmopolitan rainbow appealing to community and caring. I recall how the country looked and felt in my youth. Who are the real conservatives?
[ 05. September 2012, 18:09: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
The decrease of the percent of seniors in poverty before and after Social Security and Medicare (and other programs) also is hardly to be lamented, unless one has both a misanthropic hatred of government spending no matter what, and an impossibly bleary-eyed belief that the private sector would have done the same.
[ 05. September 2012, 18:11: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I could drain my retirement account right now and pay off a huge chunk of my student loan debt (it's not like it's making any money in this market), but the tax penalty would be higher than the interest that I pay on the loans. So "poor" may have been a stretch, but I won't begrudge them for that choice.
.. and then you wouldn't have a retirement account.
Yeah, some people just don't get it, and seem to be content to never get it.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
That's the problem and the divide: we conservatives say that the government has grown so out of control that it no longer is us. The left applauds that government growth and wants more.
To the extent that the government is "no longer us" it's because it's very close to becoming a wholly-owned subsidiary of the corporate establishment, as a result of the right-wing economic policies of the past 30 years. The left wants to take it back and bring the corporations to heel.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
That's the problem and the divide: we conservatives say that the government has grown so out of control that it no longer is us. The left applauds that government growth and wants more.
To the extent that the government is "no longer us" it's because it's very close to becoming a wholly-owned subsidiary of the corporate establishment, as a result of the right-wing economic policies of the past 30 years. The left wants to take it back and bring the corporations to heel.
This.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I could drain my retirement account right now and pay off a huge chunk of my student loan debt (it's not like it's making any money in this market), but the tax penalty would be higher than the interest that I pay on the loans. So "poor" may have been a stretch, but I won't begrudge them for that choice.
If you don't mind me asking, is that Stafford, PLUS, what?
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Mostly Staffords. My highest interest rate at this point is between 5 and 6%. For now, I get to deduct a portion of that interest from my taxes, which is helpful. I suppose that I could calculate the total interest I will pay over the next six years, less tax savings and returns on IRA investments, and see if that number is larger or smaller than the tax penalty for an early withdrawal, but given that Medicare and Social Security will not be what they used to be when I get to retirement age, it just makes sense to live frugally for another six years and leave my retirement savings in place. To bring it back to my original comment, I don't begrudge any politician for making intelligent personal financial decisions.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Mostly Staffords. My highest interest rate at this point is between 5 and 6%. For now, I get to deduct a portion of that interest from my taxes, which is helpful. I suppose that I could calculate the total interest I will pay over the next six years, less tax savings and returns on IRA investments, and see if that number is larger or smaller than the tax penalty for an early withdrawal, but given that Medicare and Social Security will not be what they used to be when I get to retirement age, it just makes sense to live frugally for another six years and leave my retirement savings in place.
At 5-6%, some deductible, you're fine.
quote:
To bring it back to my original comment, I don't begrudge any politician for making intelligent personal financial decisions.
I don't either. If you are talking about Romney's 1040, I don't care what's on it. The issue isn't what Romney did with his money but what the federal government is doing with ours.
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
quote:
Democrats waste money on people and programs which fail to produce profits.
Oh I wholeheartedly disagree. Look at the auto bailout. Saved the whole industry, and every nickle has been paid back ahead of time--from profits.
The banking industry has also been saved (though this was originally started by Bush, it continued under Obama). Again most of the money has been paid back, not all, but most.
The federal funding of our education system has definitely produced companies and profits.
Just to name three examples of how democratic programs have created profits.
[ 05. September 2012, 21:07: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452
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Posted
New Yorker - my problem is this...
The government is "us". It is people like me who work for it. It is clerks, police officers, firemen, EMTs, custodians, teachers, etc. who draw a paycheck and are employed because of the government.
The GOP wishes us to be unemployed. Somehow, putting us out of work will make the unemployment numbers go down. Huh??
The reason why we are over 8% unemployment? Because of the loss of government jobs at all levels. The private sector is hiring. The public sector is laying off. I don't see that changing, but accelerating under the GOP. More of us will become unemployed, we won't have a paycheck, and we won't spend money, which means that we won't fund the private sector to expand.
Either that or the GOP believes we will all go up in smoke when we are laid off...
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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Oh I wholeheartedly disagree. Look at the auto bailout.
Sure.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
National Review?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Oh I wholeheartedly disagree. Look at the auto bailout.
Sure.
Please use non editorials to provide evidence for your point. If the article is not an editorial please use articles that are not written with out right bias.
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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
Time to go out a bit further on the prediction limb: R/R by 7% of the popular vote, very impressive indeed but still no where near Reagan's 19% margin over Mondale.
If you'll continue to humour me... will Obama's impending defeat negatively affect the perception of 'blacks' in the US?
Personally I think not as we clearly demonstrated our lack of racism in 2008 ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) and people generally are shrewd enough to know statist ineptitude has nothing to do with skin pigment.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
When you lose, what exactly is going to be your humble pie, moron?
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
I go to a job every day where the bulk of my duties involves making sure children who are poor enough to qualify for Medicaid get all the medical care they need.
Other kids as well -- we have a few relatively well-to-do patients, their parents pay cash; and we have a few hundred patients with private insurance or private backed by Medicaid as secondary. But, on a busy, fully-booked day, when all the physicians are working, 300 patients cross my threshold, and most of them use Medicaid.
We get paid only a few cents on the dollar of what the services are really worth. And my fingers are all in the billing and claims and denials and corrections, so I'd know if there was anything fraudulent on my side of the desk.
So, my individual clinic surely isn't getting rich off gubbmint money. However, multiply us by how many thousand similar clinics all over the country?
What could be saved if the patients had caps on the numbers of visits allowed in a year? (Boy, have I seen some abuses there.) What could be saved if redundant services were eliminated/combined? What could be saved if fraud and misuse and abuse of the system could be clamped down upon? Just little things, like sending the bill to the parent instead of to Medicaid, when s/he carries Little Bob into ER three times a month for unimportant stuff, rather than going to the primary physician.
I see a lot more fiscal responsibility happening and likely to happen under GOP leadership than under the Dems, at my local/state level. What I see before my eyes daily informs my voting.
I'm still likely to vote for a third party candidate over Romney, though. GOP PsTB puppet.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
What could be saved if fraud and misuse and abuse of the system could be clamped down upon? Just little things, like sending the bill to the parent instead of to Medicaid, when s/he carries Little Bob into ER three times a month for unimportant stuff, rather than going to the primary physician.
I see a lot more fiscal responsibility happening and likely to happen under GOP leadership than under the Dems, at my local/state level. What I see before my eyes daily informs my voting.
I appreciate your work, and the special perspective that gives you on this issue. But isn't the reason mom/dad are bringing Little Bob to the ER because they don't have insurance to pay for a "primary physician" (as if they had one) visit? Of course it's ludicrous to go to the ER when a physician's visit would do. That's why we need health care reform.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
What Cliffdweller said.
Janine, I'm on Medicaid (Medi-Cal, here) and Medicare. If I didn't have both, I probably wouldn't have health care--many doctors won't take you unless you have both. Some won't take you even then.
I know that health care providers (HCPs) are paid very little by Medicaid; it's hard to get paid by Medicaid at all; and the pay keeps getting cut.
I've also had occasion to explain to HCPs that as hard as it is for them, Medicaid is even harder for patients to deal with. The system doesn't want to help people. It often tries hard not to pay for care. Getting through to a live person for help with a claim can be very hard, and you may need Legal Aid's help to get their attention. (And, IME, that DOES get their attention. You may still have to do some of your own fighting, but at least the door will be open.) Then there's the matter of cuts to Medicaid benefits: e.g., for the last several years, adults on Medi-Cal/Medicaid have only been able to get tooth extractions. All other dental care was dropped.
HCPs don't always know/realize this.
And, in California, anyway, some people who make a little more money can get on Medi-Cal/Medicaid by paying a monthly fee, depending on their income. So HCPs may encounter Medicaid users who don't seem like they'd qualify, who don't look quite as poor...and the HCPs may jump to the wrong conclusion.
There was a long stretch of time when I didn't have any health coverage. I didn't go to the ER for basic treatment--I just did without. But I don't have kids. From what I understand, parents of small kids run the gamut from panicking over every sniffle to not bothering to seek care for anything--no matter what their income and insurance coverage. Maybe the patients you've mentioned are just trying to take care of their kids???
Maybe the clinic could set up a free workshop on "what to do when your kid is sick" so they have some idea of when to go to the ER and when to the clinic??
YMMV.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
That's really tough though because of liability issues. We have so-called services of that sort in this major city, and without fail they tell you to bring the kid in. They dare not express any other opinion for fear of being sued, and we have plenty of predatory lawyers who market themselves very aggressively to the poorest and / most clueless. It isn't the threat of losing a case--simply being dragged into court for any baseless claim is enough to make such agencies fold due to legal costs. And no, there is freaking NO bloody legal aid available to anybody under any circumstances I've encountered in the past fifteen years. Let alone a nonprofit agency.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
If you'll continue to humour me... will Obama's impending defeat negatively affect the perception of 'blacks' in the US?
Personally I think not as we clearly demonstrated our lack of racism in 2008
Please clarify the meaning you attach to the words "we" and "our".
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Janine,
As I understand it, Medicaid, though funded mostly by the federal government, is administered by the states. Doesn't that mean that reducing fraud, abuse, and inefficiency would be the job of your governor primarily?
Also, what makes you think that, aside from all their rhetoric and bluster, Republicans are more fiscally responsible than are Democrats. I don't think that happens to be true at all on the national level, GW Bush being a prime example of gross fiscal irresponsibility.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3490
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
CorgiGreta--
I think perhaps moron is referring to the idea that electing Obama = post-race US.
It's not true, but some people hold it.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
Obama's election shows that bias against blacks is sufficiently low among enough people to get a black man elected, but it doesn't say anything about the level of bias in those who didn't vote for him.
It's ridiculous for someone who didn't support Obama to appropriate his election as evidence that "we clearly demonstrated our lack of racism".
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Obama's election shows that bias against blacks is sufficiently low among enough people to get a black man elected, but it doesn't say anything about the level of bias in those who didn't vote for him.
Moreover, it doesn't say anything, one way or the other, about those that didn't vote, which is almost half the elctorate. My impression was that the Barack Obama/Hillary Clinton ticket mobilised young, black and women voters like never before. If Obama loses in November it will be because those who voted for the first time in 2008 will stay at home.
[ 06. September 2012, 11:48: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... the Barack Obama/Hillary Clinton ticket ...
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... the Barack Obama/Hillary Clinton ticket ...
There. See how forgettable Joe Biden is?
(I posted in a hurry, as per usual. Hillary is in a far higher profile job though.)
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
... I see a lot more fiscal responsibility happening and likely to happen under GOP leadership than under the Dems, at my local/state level. What I see before my eyes daily informs my voting. ...
That may be true at your local and state level, but not at the federal level. Both US and Canadian conservative governments (Republicans and Harper's CRAP) have been far more profligate than their opponents over the last 30 years.
The reason Romney keeps comparing the current US situation to the sitch in 1980 is because that way, he can skip over the Reagan-Bush-Bush administrations that spent money and reduced revenues like drunken sailors. Our Liberal federal govenment was running SURPLUSES before Harper came into office. Bill Clinton did a better job with the federal budget than any of his contemporary Republican counterparts.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Oh I wholeheartedly disagree. Look at the auto bailout.
Sure.
Please use non editorials to provide evidence for your point. If the article is not an editorial please use articles that are not written with out right bias.
Here is Factcheck's take on the claim. Gramps suggested that "Every nickel has been paid back ahead of time." This is clearly false. Here is the Treasury Department's math from the end of July.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Janine, what was different at that medical office when Bush was president? And have the Republicans proposed making any of the changes you think should be made?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
My personal theory is that he pulled a time out of thin air that sounded reasonable to him ...
I was right!
quote:
"I hurt my back when I was in my mid-20s, so I had to stop running. And so obviously, my perception of races and times was off,” Ryan said. “I thought that was an ordinary time until my brother showed me a 3-hour marathon is, you know, very -- crazy fast. I ran a 4-hour marathon."
If only all my personal theories turned out like this!
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
quote:
Democrats waste money on people and programs which fail to produce profits.
Oh I wholeheartedly disagree.
Given that the comment was sarcastically intended, so do I.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Oh I wholeheartedly disagree. Look at the auto bailout.
Sure.
Please use non editorials to provide evidence for your point. If the article is not an editorial please use articles that are not written with out right bias.
Here is Factcheck's take on the claim. Gramps suggested that "Every nickel has been paid back ahead of time." This is clearly false. Here is the Treasury Department's math from the end of July.
I guess he should have said look at the bank bail out (not including AIG). We have gotten over half of what was put into the auto industry back. Given the republican view that we were not ever going to get any money back from TARP I would think you would be overjoyed by the amount of repayment.
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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
... I see a lot more fiscal responsibility happening and likely to happen under GOP leadership than under the Dems, at my local/state level. What I see before my eyes daily informs my voting. ...
That may be true at your local and state level, but not at the federal level. Both US and Canadian conservative governments (Republicans and Harper's CRAP) have been far more profligate than their opponents over the last 30 years.
The reason Romney keeps comparing the current US situation to the sitch in 1980 is because that way, he can skip over the Reagan-Bush-Bush administrations that spent money and reduced revenues like drunken sailors. Our Liberal federal govenment was running SURPLUSES before Harper came into office. Bill Clinton did a better job with the federal budget than any of his contemporary Republican counterparts.
It might be interesting to note that the most successful budget-runner in Canadian history was Tommy Douglas, the socialist premier of Saskatchewan, who managed to run 13 consecutive budget surpluses, while paving the highways and building rural hospitals and introducing the idea of single-payer helath care, all in a then-impoverished Prairie province.
Oh, and he was a Baptist preacher, not just a movie actor, community organiser or Mormon ex-missionary.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
That was Tommy Douglas and Clarence Fines who had a run-in with Saskatchewan's major bondholders, who got cold feet over this scary new Socialist when the CCF was elected in 1944.
Douglas and Fines agreed to pay off the bond holders if they didn't cause a run on Saskatchewan's bonds; it also had the happy effect of preventing the bond holders from getting in the way of the CCF's policies.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
I guess he should have said look at the bank bail out (not including AIG). We have gotten over half of what was put into the auto industry back. Given the republican view that we were not ever going to get any money back from TARP I would think you would be overjoyed by the amount of repayment.
Next time I'm looking for a loan, I'm looking for you. What's 37 billion dollars between friends, right? The point is, this line about getting every nickel back from profits is a lie.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Next time I'm looking for a loan, I'm looking for you. What's 37 billion dollars between friends, right? The point is, this line about getting every nickel back from profits is a lie.
Well that is your point. My point is away from the lie the facts are not that bad considering we avoided a depression. If you wish to continue to bang on about the lie go ahead with your bad self.
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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
We spent last weekend discussing the veracity of Paul Ryan's marathon career, so banging on over a lie that is actually fairly relevant to the election seems appropriate.
Unemployment still over 8% this month. 96K jobs added, but the percentage actually dropped .2%, thanks to 368K people giving up looking for work. Upon the news of the drop, the audience at MSNBC was heard chanting "4 more years." To be fair, they probably didn't know the circumstances that caused the drop, but I guess when you have been looking at 8%+ unemployment for almost four years, you are happy to see it go down regardless of the circumstances.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
All of that may well be true, but it completely avoids the fundamental question of any election.
You shouldn't be asking "is the current guy good enough". You must ask "is the current guy likely to be better than anyone else on offer".
On recent performance, the answer to the latter question depends entirely on your definition of the word 'better'.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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