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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: A 2012 US election thread
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Why would people so willingly go back to the policies that got us into this mess in the first place? Are people's memories really that short term? I ask that in all sincerity. Why? Why? Is there something I don't understand about the average US voter?

I'd bet that a lot of average US voters don't know what policies got us into this mess.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:

Looked at objectively, it's awfully hard to see why Obama should get a second bite at the apple. The only thing he had going for him was that Romney was the worst candidate for POTUS since the last Massachusetts contender for the office. Now, Romney actually showed signs of life. That can't be good for Obama. If people feel they have a choice, he's the one who will be toast.

--Tom Clune

No, if one actually listened rather than going on appearances it should be clear Romney was doing a complete 180 from what he's been saying he'd do on immigration, taxes and his opinion of the 47%. The only detail he gave on his legislative plans was actually trying to claim future credit for keeping the parts of Obama's legislation that he liked - all of this while keeping a straight face. For the rest, Romney wants to take us back to the same policies that caused the crash and Ryan wants to take things even further - they and the GOP want to dismantle any safety net programs. Obama's performance was sub par last night, but objectively he's still the lesser of two evils in this election. Housing is very slowly coming back even in California and there are jobs being created, even if not nearly enough. We were shedding jobs when Obama got the job. I don't want to reverse course back to where we came from. Not to mention Romney in statements outside of the debate seems ready to take us into another war, either in Iran or Syria. I normally vote 3rd party as I hate both the GOP and the Democratic party, but this is too important to risk a Romney presidency IMO.

Not to mention there are still 2 debates and a few weeks of campaigning left. Who knows what will happen. One debate doth not a presidency make.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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Don't worry, Romney managed to shoot himself in the foot anyway, he said during the debate he'd cut federal funding to PBS, ending his line with "sorry, Big Bird".

The Internet exploded over that one.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Don't worry, Romney managed to shoot himself in the foot anyway, he said during the debate he'd cut federal funding to PBS, ending his line with "sorry, Big Bird".

Generally quotation marks indicate that the person actually said the thing in quotes. Let me demonstrate how this works. I might write, today, in Iowa, Joe Biden said "You know the phrase they always use? 'Obama and Biden want to raise taxes by a trillion dollars.' Guess what? Yes, we do." And Joe Biden actually said that today, so there, the quotation marks are justified. You might want to check the actual Big Bird line out and modify accordingly. (Obviously Biden was talking about taxing the wealthy, but you can count on seeing that one taken out of context in adds in the future.) (And it still wasn't a great joke to make, but any time a Republican talks about defunding PBS, the democrats bring up Big Bird, so maybe he was just trying to beat them to the punch line.)

The Federal government sends $445 million to PBS. Cutting that would be a drop in the bucket as far as the deficit is concerned, and I would be sad if my local PBS station suffered because of this. But it would be something.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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Og:

Full quote.

quote:
"I’m sorry, Jim," Romney told moderator Jim Lehrer, "I’m going to stop the subsidy to PBS. I like PBS. I love Big Bird."
Og, let me introduce you to paraphrasing.

Washington Post blog entry, among numerous examples.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Never mind all that, I just want someone to tell me that it's gonna be alright, and Mittens will not win.

Anybody? Please.

Me too. I'm sorry, but I (and I loathe what I know of Romney) did not see all the negatives that are being listed. I saw someone sharp, energised engaging, able to rattle off truckloads of numbers (which may or may not have been facts - how can a poor punter tell?) confidently and with charm. I saw a ready laugh and a pleasant smile. He sounded trite only when he tried to wheel out the 'nasty communists are removing God from the constitution' line.

On the other hand I saw the president as tired, rolling back near if not on the rope, stumbly, with ponderous pauses. Only on Obamacare did he warm into human mode. I have heard him on rallies - someone has snatched his body. This guy was dead on his feet. Maybe he and Michelle, er, partied too hard the previous night.

[The only good thing to emerge these opast few days was that Kuruman and I share Michelle and Barrack's wedding anniversary, though we were six years later]

Of course, if I were murrikan, I would vote for Obama. He's way to the right of me, but apparently Karl Marx isn't running. But by God he needs to lift his game (Obama, not Marx) over the next few weeks. That was a dismal shambles.

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
'nasty communists are removing God from the constitution' line

Incidentally, I must add that a major contrast between OZ/NZ and the USA is that removing God from the constitution, if he/she/it were there (and to be honest we know so little about our constitutions that I doubt if we know or care) would be an election winner, not a cause of horror. God is on the nose, down here.

[ 04. October 2012, 22:53: Message edited by: Zappa ]

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Don't worry, Romney managed to shoot himself in the foot anyway, he said during the debate he'd cut federal funding to PBS, ending his line with "sorry, Big Bird".

The Internet exploded over that one.

And..........that went nowhere.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Porridge
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# 15405

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Personally, I came away hoping that people watched the debate on teh Webz, like I did. Split screen. You could watch Romney rolling his eyes and shaking his head as Obama spoke.

Some sources believe it's that sort of thing which cost Al Gore the presidency.

Well, that and the Supreme Court.

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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I think Obama is tired and may be more than a little depleted by the last four years. His idealism (GOP supporters may just see that as naivity and lack of suitable experience) has had a lot to come to terms with when facing the reality of the office - "this fucking job", as Kennedy memorably described it.

The public debates may well turn out to be an acid test of his resilience and determination as much as anything else. "Spirit of Seve" time for Obama.

Romney was slick in the debate - Obama wasn't. But it aint over. You can get away with 180 degree u-turns once.

Was it a momentum shift? Maybe. I think the jury is out on that.

[ 05. October 2012, 07:13: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380

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In the 2004 campaign, didn't Mitt Romney criticise John Kerry for "being on both sides of most issues"? Mr Romney joked that, when Mr Kerry wanted a "balanced ticket", someone with "views different from his own" Mr Kerry picked himself. In short, Mr Romney accused Mr Kerry of being a flip-flopper.

As people pointed out above, following the first Presidential debate, Mr Romney seems to be open to precisely the charge that he used against Mr Kerry. For example:-

"The strangest aspect of Wednesday night’s debate was Mitt Romney’s decision to change his tax policies on the fly. Having campaigned hard on a tax proposal that called for $5 trillion in tax cuts, he said flatly that he was not offering a $5 trillion tax cut.

“I don’t have a tax cut of the scale that you’re talking about,” Romney said — even though that is exactly the tax cut he has proposed. Was Romney for his tax plan before he was against it?" (source)

Has Mr Romney flip-flopped on the merits of flip-flopping itself? Will this apparent inconsistency hurt him?

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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:

Has Mr Romney flip-flopped on the merits of flip-flopping itself? Will this apparent inconsistency hurt him?

Or is that politics personified? Doesn't the average audience have a retention memory for policies lasting about 17 seconds?

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754

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One of the many commentaries on the President's torpor mentioned that while Romney had been in Denver for three days prior, Obama arrived only two hours before the debate time.

My wife resonated with this since she had the experience of extreme weariness shortly after arriving into the Denver's high altitude, less oxygen a few years ago.

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moron
Shipmate
# 206

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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
You could watch Romney rolling his eyes and shaking his head as Obama spoke.

Who could blame him?


Anyway, it's interesting in a sad kind of way to think what Obama might have developed into had the sycophant media not undermined him with their 'soft bigotry of low expectations' and actually subjected him to even a very modest level of critical scrutiny.

As it stands now though... probably just another 'might have been'.

Still and all I imagine he'll land on his feet and do at least OK the remainder of his life.

Godspeed, President Obama.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by moron:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
You could watch Romney rolling his eyes and shaking his head as Obama spoke.

Who could blame him?
Anybody who believes in common courtesy. Which clearly leaves out Romney and certain people on this thread.

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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This is interesting. It looks like Obama may have gotten a bump from the debate.

One-third of the results from the poll would have come after the debate, and two-thirds from before. And none would have included any effect from today's job numbers.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436

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I have no horse in this race but Obama looked like an automaton in that debate, his poll ratings do not deserve to go up and perhaps the poll doesn't reflect that debacle.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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This might be a bit like the Sarah Palin effect on McCain. I believe there was an immediate benefit on announcing her as running-mate which dissipated and became negative as her limitations became clearer.

So Romney's big switch tactic and smooth presentation might have looked good immediately, but as time goes by lines like;

"But it couldn't have been Mitt Romney, because the real Mitt Romney has been running around the country for the last year promising $5 trillion in tax cuts that favour the wealthy. The fellow on stage last night said he didn't know anything about that."

...might start to undo those gains.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
I have no horse in this race but Obama looked like an automaton in that debate, his poll ratings do not deserve to go up and perhaps the poll doesn't reflect that debacle.

Or perhaps there's more to his bump than how he looked in the debate. Like how Romney behaved.

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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109

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Possibly a clever move then - keep his head down and speak quietly and let Romney dig his own grave.

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"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Well this is hardly surprising. If we did elect this chameleon, how do we know exactly which of his many positions he would actually govern by?

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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

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It's classic Obama to be Mr. Nice Guy first, if only to demonstrate clearly that with the kind of opponents he has, it doesn't work. He has two more debates in which to come out swinging.

Meanwhile, Romney betrayed his base so much in the debate that if, as some say, he "energized" them, it can only be because they understand his opportunistic mendacity perfectly well and they are confident that they're not hearing his real positions.

But I doubt that such early poll results reflect the full effect of the debate. We must probably wait until the middle of next week to learn this.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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Lawrence
Ship's Grill Master
# 4913

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my concern for a long time with Obama has been that he has never been a good political street fighter and that deficiency was front and center in the debate. He allow Romney to drag him into an alley and beat the crap of him. If Romney pulled that on a Clinton, he would have been left in the alley in pieces. This was the very reason I was in favor of Hilary four years ago. I didn't think Obama was tough enough to deal with congressional republicans who, after his election, flat out announced that they were not going to deal with him in order to make him one term president. My view of the Clintons is summed up in a paraphrase of Sean Connery's speech to Kevin Costner in "The Untouchables":

They pull a knife on you, you pull a gun on them, they put one of yours in the hospital, you put two of theirs in the morgue, that's the Clintons way!

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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

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Complaining about public broadcasting is another prerennial dog-whistle. Shit, it was old when I was a teenager. When Romney talks about cutting PBS or Big Bird, he's really attacking e.g. science programs like Nova that <gasp!> actually accept evolution and climate change as real phenomena. Or those awful National Endowment for the Arts people with their Mapplethorpe photos of teh gayz. And latte-drinking sushi-eating liberals who watch Masterpiece Theatre. And a network that actually does real investigative reporting and has civilized news shows. And so on. The funding for the CORPORATION FOR PUBLIC BROADCASTING (Mittens doesn't even know where the funding he wants to cut actually goes) is a) a pittance and b) supports lots of other media besides PBS and Sesame Street.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence:
my concern for a long time with Obama has been that he has never been a good political street fighter and that deficiency was front and center in the debate. He allow Romney to drag him into an alley and beat the crap of him. If Romney pulled that on a Clinton, he would have been left in the alley in pieces. This was the very reason I was in favor of Hilary four years ago. I didn't think Obama was tough enough to deal with congressional republicans who, after his election, flat out announced that they were not going to deal with him in order to make him one term president. My view of the Clintons is summed up in a paraphrase of Sean Connery's speech to Kevin Costner in "The Untouchables":

They pull a knife on you, you pull a gun on them, they put one of yours in the hospital, you put two of theirs in the morgue, that's the Clintons way!

I had the same observation re: Obama back in '08, but I think it's a mixed bag. Like all of us, each has their strengths and weaknesses. Coming off 8 years of W's cowboys swagger, Obama's diplomacy and civility was a breath of fresh air that clearly has done us good in the much-damaged area of int'l relations. Where it cost him has been in working with Congress, where he has all too often been willing to give away the store to appease Republicans who wouldn't be appeased if you managed to raise Reagan from the dead. That's the ying-and-yang of Obama's cooly measured civility.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Lawrence
Ship's Grill Master
# 4913

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I had the same observation re: Obama back in '08, but I think it's a mixed bag. Like all of us, each has their strengths and weaknesses. Coming off 8 years of W's cowboys swagger, Obama's diplomacy and civility was a breath of fresh air that clearly has done us good in the much-damaged area of int'l relations. Where it cost him has been in working with Congress, where he has all too often been willing to give away the store to appease Republicans who wouldn't be appeased if you managed to raise Reagan from the dead. That's the ying-and-yang of Obama's cooly measured civility. [/QB]

Yes, in many ways he has been a very competent President, but his unwillingness/inability to engage in hard fighting puts his second term at risk.
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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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Oddly enough, Obama famously quoted that exact speech during the 2008 election.

I disagree with your assessment of Obama's skill as a political "street fighter." His team went for the jugular very early with attacks on Romney's business record. He has very slick fundraising skills, and his ground organization is very good. He even beat the Clintons by being better organized in caucus states. He may be good at appearing to be above the fray, but make no mistake, his is not a ham-fisted or passive operation.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
It's classic Obama to be Mr. Nice Guy first, if only to demonstrate clearly that with the kind of opponents he has, it doesn't work. He has two more debates in which to come out swinging.

quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence:
my concern for a long time with Obama has been that he has never been a good political street fighter and that deficiency was front and center in the debate. He allow Romney to drag him into an alley and beat the crap of him.

There are certain political limitations on the degree to which Obama can be rhetorically agressive due to that thing Americans never talk about. You know, the thing. Ta-Nehisi Coates explains:

quote:
From the “inadequate black male” diatribe of the Hillary Clinton supporter Harriet Christian in 2008, to Rick Santelli’s 2009 rant on CNBC against subsidizing “losers’ mortgages,” to Representative Joe Wilson’s “You lie!” outburst during Obama’s September 2009 address to Congress, to John Boehner’s screaming “Hell no!” on the House floor about Obamacare in 2010, politicized rage has marked the opposition to Obama. But the rules of our racial politics require that Obama never respond in like fashion. So frightening is the prospect of black rage given voice and power that when Obama was a freshman senator, he was asked, on national television, to denounce the rage of Harry Belafonte. This fear continued with demands that he keep his distance from Louis Farrakhan and culminated with Reverend Wright and a presidency that must never betray any sign of rage toward its white opposition.
Given the way a significant chunk of the American electorate already sees Obama, a close real-life analog of Cliff Huxtable, as the second coming of Malcolm X, a decision by him to "come out [rhetorically] swinging" against a lily-white opponent may be emotionally satisfying for his supporters but electorally counterproductive in the long run.

[ 05. October 2012, 20:26: Message edited by: Crœsos ]

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Complaining about public broadcasting is another prerennial dog-whistle... The funding for the CORPORATION FOR PUBLIC BROADCASTING (Mittens doesn't even know where the funding he wants to cut actually goes) is a) a pittance and b) supports lots of other media besides PBS and Sesame Street.

Two other probable reasons for making a big deal out of less than $1 per year per capita. (1) People with access to, and experience with, culture are more difficult to lead around by the nose. (2) It bugs the hell out of advertisers (and those who commission advertising) that people have a refuge out of their reach.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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Lawrence
Ship's Grill Master
# 4913

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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Oddly enough, Obama famously quoted that exact speech during the 2008 election.

I disagree with your assessment of Obama's skill as a political "street fighter." His team went for the jugular very early with attacks on Romney's business record. He has very slick fundraising skills, and his ground organization is very good. He even beat the Clintons by being better organized in caucus states. He may be good at appearing to be above the fray, but make no mistake, his is not a ham-fisted or passive operation.

His team went for the jugular on Bain Capital, not Obama himself(and it worked). A good political organization is essential and he has one. Obama is in many ways a very good politician, but Romney had his jugular exposed in the debate and Obama could not/would not go for it because he is not a street fighter. Lofty rhetoric is not going to cut it with a congress that is willing to engage in the most base tactics to achieve its objectives. Romney looked all the more "tougher" because Obama did not shove it back at him.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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I agree, though, that he is constrained by ugly racial politics. Hilary, I think, was doomed by the gender-based version of the same game.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I disagree with your assessment of Obama's skill as a political "street fighter." His team went for the jugular very early with attacks on Romney's business record.

His team went for the jugular on Bain Capital, not Obama himself (and it worked).
See my previous post on why Obama is forced to use surrogates for these kinds of attacks.

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Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lawrence
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The racial (and gender) constraint comments are well made. Perhaps they do not have the same power today for Obama in that:

1) He has been the President of the United States for close to four years and is no longer an unknown black man

2) Those who might still fear the Malcom X factor are already not going to vote for him again under any circumstances.

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mdijon
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1) I don't think the racists are necessarily mollified by the passage of time and

2) I expect there is a lot of low and mid-level anxiety provoked by his race that could be up-regulated if he showed aggression.

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Prester John
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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Two other probable reasons for making a big deal out of less than $1 per year per capita. (1) People with access to, and experience with, culture are more difficult to lead around by the nose. (2) It bugs the hell out of advertisers (and those who commission advertising) that people have a refuge out of their reach.

In regards to point #2 the PBS stations in my area have had corporate sponsors and show thinly veiled commercials for quite some time now.
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
In regards to point #2 the PBS stations in my area have had corporate sponsors and show thinly veiled commercials for quite some time now.

I remember years ago the entire family cracking up spontaneously when the announcer-man voice said at the end of one episode of the show "Nature" --

"Nature is made possible by Exxon."

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
the PBS stations in my area have had corporate sponsors and show thinly veiled commercials for quite some time now.

Let's face it . . . they're not so thinly veiled. They're just plain out-and-out commercials, albeit fewer than on commercial channels. That's one reason I don't contribute to PBS.

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Gramps49
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Romney says he will cut public funding of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, but he will continue the oil subsidy. What does that say about whose pocket he's in?
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
the PBS stations in my area have had corporate sponsors and show thinly veiled commercials for quite some time now.

Let's face it . . . they're not so thinly veiled. They're just plain out-and-out commercials, albeit fewer than on commercial channels. That's one reason I don't contribute to PBS.
That's kind of backwards, isn't it? They don't get enough non-corporate funding to allow them to eschew corporate funding, so I'm going to reduce the potential level of non-corporate funding they get.

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New Yorker
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# 9898

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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Romney says he will cut public funding of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, but he will continue the oil subsidy. What does that say about whose pocket he's in?

I would disagree that the oil industry is subsidized but assuming that it is at least it gets results. Obama subsidizes the green energy industry and it fails and the taxpayers lose.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That's kind of backwards, isn't it?

You miss the point. The point is that they claim that their programming is commercial-free, and then they turn around and air commercials. If that's the way it's going to be, then they don't need my money. I can't compete with corporate wealth on my Social Security allowance and a modest annuity.

[ 06. October 2012, 12:58: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Romney says he will cut public funding of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, but he will continue the oil subsidy. What does that say about whose pocket he's in?

I would disagree that the oil industry is subsidized but assuming that it is at least it gets results. Obama subsidizes the green energy industry and it fails and the taxpayers lose.
Yeah, remember when that Solyndra accident killed eleven people and dumped 210 million gallons of sun into the Gulf of Mexico?

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
I would disagree that the oil industry is subsidized but assuming that it is at least it gets results.

Yeah, it sure does. Just look at their profit statements.

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Romney says he will cut public funding of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, but he will continue the oil subsidy. What does that say about whose pocket he's in?

I would disagree that the oil industry is subsidized but assuming that it is at least it gets results. Obama subsidizes the green energy industry and it fails and the taxpayers lose.
Gets results for whom? Oh, yes, the shareholders of the oil companies. So THAT's what the Republican party thinks we should do with our tax monies.

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St. Punk the Pious

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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Romney says he will cut public funding of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, but he will continue the oil subsidy. What does that say about whose pocket he's in?

Actually Romney left the door open during the debate for ending "the oil subsidy."

(I place "the oil subsidy" in quotes because the tax breaks the oil industry gets are not that different from those of other industries.)

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My reely gud book.

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Grammatica
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence:
The racial (and gender) constraint comments are well made. Perhaps they do not have the same power today for Obama in that:

1) He has been the President of the United States for close to four years and is no longer an unknown black man

2) Those who might still fear the Malcom X factor are already not going to vote for him again under any circumstances.

Excellent points -- but for some reason, even though these factors may not constrain Obama from the objective observer's point of view, they still seem to constrain him from his own subjective point of view.

Or perhaps it's something else in his psychology that's responsible.

Whatever it is, it's a consistent pattern. When someone bullies or openly and brazenly lies to Obama in an assertive way, to his face, he doesn't seem to be able to deal with it. He caves in and goes all distant and tentative instead of taking charge and putting the liar or bully in his place.

Romney's lightning-fast position switch to Massachusetts Moderate in the first debate left Obama visibly dumbfounded. But surely we weren't surprised by his poor performance? The same Big Lie tactics from Republicans worked so well during the Affordable Health Care Act debate ("death panels!"). They enabled Republicans to block all important legislation, even the Farm Bill, during Obama's term. Where Lyndon Johnson would have been out knocking heads and shoving recalcitrant Senators up against a wall (while murmuring "Come, let us reason together"), Obama will hide in the Oval Office, or go on the kind of campaign tour that guarantees he will be surrounded only by his fans.

Obama doesn't seem to realize how ruthless his opponents are, how willing they are to do or say absolutely anything to keep themselves in control of the government. It's as though he just doesn't know the political history of the American South. But then, in fact, he doesn't. He was shielded from it by his upbringing, and he doesn't know how to deal with the Deep South pols who control the Republican Party these days.

I am extremely disappointed in him, though, given the alternatives, he still has my vote. But he's a rock star, a Justin Bieber who loves to speechify for his fans. He's not a politician, and his opponents are.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
Whatever it is, it's a consistent pattern. When someone bullies or openly and brazenly lies to Obama in an assertive way, to his face, he doesn't seem to be able to deal with it. He caves in and goes all distant and tentative instead of taking charge and putting the liar or bully in his place.

You misunderestimate the constraints he's forced to work under.

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mdijon
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In a different cultural setting it is my experience that people who have known me personally for years nevertheless have a stereotype in mind which they will immediately recall if I behave in a manner that seems to fit it.

Black men learn in a variety of settings that any sign of aggression earns them an instant label and seems to lead the room's thermostat to malfunction for everybody.

It is more likely to be familiarity with some aspects of deep south political history that leads to his behaviour than unfamiliarity.

Regarding the health-care reform, blaming Obama's lack of political fighting instinct seems to me wrong. Observing from the outside the incredible level of political hostility and the scenes of vitriolic protest, that seems really quite close to blaming the victim.

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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Porridge
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# 15405

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
In a different cultural setting it is my experience that people who have known me personally for years nevertheless have a stereotype in mind which they will immediately recall if I behave in a manner that seems to fit it.

Black men learn in a variety of settings that any sign of aggression earns them an instant label and seems to lead the room's thermostat to malfunction for everybody.

It is more likely to be familiarity with some aspects of deep south political history that leads to his behaviour than unfamiliarity.

Regarding the health-care reform, blaming Obama's lack of political fighting instinct seems to me wrong. Observing from the outside the incredible level of political hostility and the scenes of vitriolic protest, that seems really quite close to blaming the victim.

While I am not a black man and cannot speak from that perspective, my recent newsreading has been rife with incidents of racism. Am I seeking these out? Some, maybe; but I don't think all of them; they just appear in my newspaper and magazines and now & again on my homepage links. "Bleach" attacks on a college campus; filthy epithets painted on homes in my home town; the kinds of discrimination in services and retail establishments that preceded civil rights protests one of my parents engaged in; and I could go on.

I may be naive or cynical and wrong, but it's my perception that, since Obama was elected, there has been an uptick in this kind of material in the news. Does it reflect an actual rise in expressed racism? Dunno, and have no clue as to how one might tell.

If it's a real rise, however (as opposed to increased media attention, say), then I suspect that it forms a constraining context (given a profoundly ugly and violent interracial history on these shores) for a mixed-race President.

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Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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irish_lord99
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# 16250

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
Whatever it is, it's a consistent pattern. When someone bullies or openly and brazenly lies to Obama in an assertive way, to his face, he doesn't seem to be able to deal with it. He caves in and goes all distant and tentative instead of taking charge and putting the liar or bully in his place.

You misunderestimate the constraints he's forced to work under.
Well, he's essentially been given the 'angry black man' title by the right-wing pundits no matter what he does. The talk-radio wackos have done everything they can to paint him as such since day one.

He might as well come out swinging and rally the base while showing the free-thinking/independent voters that he's actually got a pair.

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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

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