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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Ordinariate Blues
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Solly
Shipmate
# 11919
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Posted
The Ordinariate has gone very quiet and judging by the deteriorating literacy of the Portal magazine and the disconsolate groups interviewed therein, things aren't going terribly well. Ed Tomlinson's spirited blog is running out of steam and turning into a little Catholic bubble and the only bright spot seems to be the ever-bubbly James Bradley's jolly tweets. Does anyone have the inside story?
[ 01. December 2012, 10:41: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posts: 70 | From: Sussex UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
I haven't noticed anything changing. The ordinariate members I know, including myself, are busy concentrating on attending mass, getting to know diocesan Catholics and otherwise having lives. The reality of being a member of the Ordinariate is just the reality of being a person.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
If 'quiet' means 'nobody's talking about it on the Internet', that would suggest it's doing quite well ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Lucrezia Spagliatoni Dayglo
Apprentice
# 16907
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Posted
There's an Ordinariate group in my parish. I think they are doing very well ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Work hard, drink hard, play hard and fall over hard.
Posts: 20 | From: "...an utterly insignificant little blue-green planet ..." | Registered: Jan 2012
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
I don’t take the “going quiet on the internet” as a bad sign. More of a going through the next stage of adaption and change. It must have been a huge wrench to leave and much of the stuff written had a smack of undirected grief and anger. I am glad that stage has passed.
I am avoiding any chance of crossing the Hosts by mentioning other sites by name but I have noted my “gibbering idiot” responsometer has dipped dramatically as various sites and blogs reference less “what the C of E has done wrong” and move on to more appropriate Roman Catholic matters. Pet dogs for instance.
Below is the beginning of the post I decided against.
Fly Safe, Pyx_e
Assimilation is the process by which the Borg add new members and new technology to the Collective. The Borg generally do not assimilate individuals, and instead preferred to target larger groups such as the crews of starships and the populations of planets ............
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Stranger in a strange land
Shipmate
# 11922
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Solly:
The Ordinariate has gone very quiet and judging by the deteriorating literacy of the Portal magazine and the disconsolate groups interviewed therein, things aren't going terribly well. Ed Tomlinson's spirited blog is running out of steam and turning into a little Catholic bubble and the only bright spot seems to be the ever-bubbly James Bradley's jolly tweets. Does anyone have the inside story?
It is summer. Rome closes down in the summer.
'And, of course, when Bagpuss goes to sleep,
all his friends go to sleep too.'
Posts: 608 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Tangent Alert
What a magnificent nickname, much better than Old Redsocks or any of the others. I shall henceforth be unable to picture Benny as vested in anything other than pink and off-white stripes.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
I haven't noticed anything changing. The ordinariate members I know, including myself, are busy concentrating on attending mass, getting to know diocesan Catholics and otherwise having lives. The reality of being a member of the Ordinariate is just the reality of being a person.
Thank you for posting this - it's a good reminder that the business of faith is people living out their lives as best they can, not providing fodder for internet gossip.
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
What a strange OP. There is plenty going on with regards to the UK Ordinariate. Many new priests have been ordained over the past number of months and will continue to be through to November, the most recent ordinations taking place last Saturday (Frs. Kenneth Berry, Paul Gibbons and Donald Minchew). There will also be a major event in November at St. Agatha's, Portsmouth to celebrate the installation of a new peal of bells in the church. Msgr. Newton will celebrate Mass according to the BDW with English adaptations.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Stranger in a strange land
Shipmate
# 11922
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
What does 'BDW' stand for?
'Book of Divine Worship'. The liturgy of Anglican Use parishes in the US which is permitted as an interim use in the Ordinariate until our own Mass texts are approved.
Posts: 608 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
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Posted
I know I probably shouldn't, but when I read all this Ordinariate stuff - in fact anything related to the subject of Anglican Catholics or Anglicans becoming Catholic, such as
quote:
'Book of Divine Worship'. The liturgy of Anglican Use parishes in the US which is permitted as an interim use in the Ordinariate until our own Mass texts are approved.
or stuff about what someone wears, or where they stand, or the use of words like thurible and aubrey and exposition of the blessed sacrament, or whether someone who is deficient in the penis department can be a priest, or whatever, i have to wondr what relevance it has to Jesus, or real faith, or the real world, come to that.
I both despair at the pre-occupations of so many Christians, and rejoice that apart from when reading SoF I don't even have to think of it all, because I'm a Methodist...
... and then I see Methodist honorary ecumenical Canons rejoicing in putting "Rev Canon Dr" in front of their name when it isn't a Methodist style (or worse, "Rev Prebendary" when 99.99% of Methodists (including me) have no idea what a prebendary is) , or using management-speak jargon which hasn't been in use in the real world they filched it from for five years, or coming up with phrases like "a discipleship movement shaped for mission" as a euphemism for managing decline, and I think, "Bloody hell! What the FUCK do we think we look and sound like, we Christians? I mean, what the f...." and then I splutter wordlessly and helplessly into silence...
... I can take the piss endlessly out of the precious little anglo-caths, or catholic misogynists of all stripes, but then I look at my own denomination, or the URC, or the buttoned-up "that's my chapel, and that's the chapel I wouldn't be seen dead in" little Welsh independents, and for crying out loud...
... it's time every single Augean stable was cleansed, isn't it? I mean, really?
Posts: 276 | From: Essex | Registered: Apr 2005
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Originally posted by Ondergard: quote:
using management-speak jargon which hasn't been in use in the real world they filched it from for five years
Management-speak jargon has never had anything to do with the real world...
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
I know I probably shouldn't, but when I read all this Ordinariate stuff - in fact anything related to the subject of Anglican Catholics or Anglicans becoming Catholic, such as
quote:
'Book of Divine Worship'. The liturgy of Anglican Use parishes in the US which is permitted as an interim use in the Ordinariate until our own Mass texts are approved.
or stuff about what someone wears, or where they stand, or the use of words like thurible and aubrey and exposition of the blessed sacrament, or whether someone who is deficient in the penis department can be a priest, or whatever, i have to wondr what relevance it has to Jesus, or real faith, or the real world, come to that.
I both despair at the pre-occupations of so many Christians, and rejoice that apart from when reading SoF I don't even have to think of it all, because I'm a Methodist...
... and then I see Methodist honorary ecumenical Canons rejoicing in putting "Rev Canon Dr" in front of their name when it isn't a Methodist style (or worse, "Rev Prebendary" when 99.99% of Methodists (including me) have no idea what a prebendary is) , or using management-speak jargon which hasn't been in use in the real world they filched it from for five years, or coming up with phrases like "a discipleship movement shaped for mission" as a euphemism for managing decline, and I think, "Bloody hell! What the FUCK do we think we look and sound like, we Christians? I mean, what the f...." and then I splutter wordlessly and helplessly into silence...
... I can take the piss endlessly out of the precious little anglo-caths, or catholic misogynists of all stripes, but then I look at my own denomination, or the URC, or the buttoned-up "that's my chapel, and that's the chapel I wouldn't be seen dead in" little Welsh independents, and for crying out loud...
... it's time every single Augean stable was cleansed, isn't it? I mean, really?
Aww diddums. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Ondergard: it's much the same in all walks of life. Especially with politicians. That's why Denis Healey was so right when he said that every politician should have a 'hinterland'. So should every priest, minister, professional church-committee person, ecclesiantic, liturgist, prebendary (whatever they are), circuit superintendent....
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Haven't we discussed this before?
Many times. Many, many times. And I say that as somebody who has some interest in the matter. But some things just press that ole Groundhog Day button.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Stranger in a strange land
Shipmate
# 11922
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Posted
Ondergard,
it is late and perhaps I am being dumb but I just don't get how I offended.
Leo asked a question about an abbreviation - one which is not as well known in the UK as in the US - and I tried to explain it as simply and concisely as I could.
Posts: 608 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
I know I probably shouldn't, but when I read all this Ordinariate stuff - in fact anything related to the subject of Anglican Catholics or Anglicans becoming Catholic, such as
quote:
'Book of Divine Worship'. The liturgy of Anglican Use parishes in the US which is permitted as an interim use in the Ordinariate until our own Mass texts are approved.
or stuff about what someone wears, or where they stand, or the use of words like thurible and aubrey and exposition of the blessed sacrament, or whether someone who is deficient in the penis department can be a priest, or whatever, i have to wondr what relevance it has to Jesus, or real faith, or the real world, come to that.
I both despair at the pre-occupations of so many Christians, and rejoice that apart from when reading SoF I don't even have to think of it all, because I'm a Methodist...
... and then I see Methodist honorary ecumenical Canons rejoicing in putting "Rev Canon Dr" in front of their name when it isn't a Methodist style (or worse, "Rev Prebendary" when 99.99% of Methodists (including me) have no idea what a prebendary is) , or using management-speak jargon which hasn't been in use in the real world they filched it from for five years, or coming up with phrases like "a discipleship movement shaped for mission" as a euphemism for managing decline, and I think, "Bloody hell! What the FUCK do we think we look and sound like, we Christians? I mean, what the f...." and then I splutter wordlessly and helplessly into silence...
... I can take the piss endlessly out of the precious little anglo-caths, or catholic misogynists of all stripes, but then I look at my own denomination, or the URC, or the buttoned-up "that's my chapel, and that's the chapel I wouldn't be seen dead in" little Welsh independents, and for crying out loud...
... it's time every single Augean stable was cleansed, isn't it? I mean, really?
Hmm. A bit of a tangent - perhaps I live a sheltered life, but I can only think of one Methodist prebendary, though he looks to be quite an interesting chap, about whom even the ordinariate enthusiast Fr Hunwicke has been quite complimentary. He certainly keeps diverse company, as one may see here. But if a Methodist prebendary is deemed to be an oddity, what should one make of the (Rt) Revd Lesslie Newbigin, who managed to be a Presbyterian bishop, an even more paradoxical creature?
I am sure that you are quite right in your observations, and many will share your puzzlement as to how folk can get so worked up about such minutiae, yet at the same time can't we draw a little non-malicious amusement from this sort of thing? And then go back to being serious.
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
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Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stranger in a strange land:
Ondergard,
it is late and perhaps I am being dumb but I just don't get how I offended.
Leo asked a question about an abbreviation - one which is not as well known in the UK as in the US - and I tried to explain it as simply and concisely as I could.
You didn't offend at all!
I just get so tired of all the prissiness of it all... not just Caths and Anglo-Caths, as I hoped I made clear... in this case, the idea that we can't possibly worship God properly unless we've got someone's permission to use certain words in a certain way.
Someone responded to my exasperation with the... well, is it a word? "Diddums"... I can't remember who it was but whoever he or she is, just using that expression in itself sums up all the bitchiness and lack of care for anything except their stupid, man-made, ridiculous, precious and prolonged bouts of smartarsery (which have little or nothing to do with any kind of Christianity most normal people would want anything to do with, and which deserve all the slow desperate decline they are going to experience).
Posts: 276 | From: Essex | Registered: Apr 2005
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
My thoughts exactly Ondergard.
There is another thread somewhere on these boards titled 'Fake mass' about how people train to do/perform/celebrate the mass. And someone said that the training mass (ie before ordination) felt very real. My thought was that it probably was 'real', whatever real means in this context.
I share bread and wine with friends, we've said the words Jesus said etc, etc, and it all feels very real to us. Although I seem to remember another thread where we were told that 'feelings' are irrelevant.
Orfeo on the Ship of Fools 6/7/12 'Religious is not a synonym for Christian thread' said:
quote:
"People are often sufficiently self-centred in their own debate (a Christian-atheist/secular tug-of-war) that it doesn't occur to them that anyone might be outside that debate altogether."
I thought this was so good I kept it in my own personal quote file.
And this is how I feel. When I read the thread about online sacraments it seems to be taken for granted by many that the crux of the matter is whether or not an ordained person can do the business remotely, and how will we know it is a genuine ordained person and so on. But this just all seems to be irrelevant to me.
I expect I will get told off for making a tangent on this thread, but like you I feel increasingly detached from much of the stuff the churches seem to think is important.
So I try to stay outside the debates now and get on with my life. Just wanted you to know you are not alone. I think there are a lot of us about. We look on and quietly despair while those on planet Church look out and wonder why we don't join them.
Mutual incomprehension.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
I just get so tired of all the prissiness of it all... not just Caths and Anglo-Caths, as I hoped I made clear... in this case, the idea that we can't possibly worship God properly unless we've got someone's permission to use certain words in a certain way.
I feel exactly the same about the slackness, ugliness and downright stupidity of a lot of non liturgical services. When we worship God we should do it properly not just make things up as we go along. That's why you're a Methodist and I'm a Catholic.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
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Posted
quote:
I feel exactly the same about the slackness, ugliness and downright stupidity of a lot of non liturgical services. When we worship God we should do it properly not just make things up as we go along. That's why you're a Methodist and I'm a Catholic.
But that isn't why I'm a Methodist.
We, too, have our liturgies, and I use them. I preach from the Lectionary as well, almost exclusively (the RCL at that).
I'm a Methodist because when I came to faith (outside any church of any description, because I didn't go) it was the writings of Colin Morris and other Methodists like him (including American ethodist scholars like Albert Outler) and the example of my Methodist Local Preacher uncle which had a big hand in converting me - and I discovered a church which majored on the idea that "for all, for all, my Saviour died".
It was sod all to do with the style of worship, liturgical or otherwise, or what the minister wore, or what words he used at Communion; nor even if he called it Communion, or Eucharist, or the Lord's Supper....
As to "not making things up as we go along"... we call that "extempore" out here in the real world. Whilst using extempore prayer or for that matter extempore worship can risk repetition, painfully embarrassing use of proper nouns as sentence fillers whilst the one praying thinks of something to say, terrible worship songs using twee expressions which try to suggest that Jesus is our best friend, or that what we want God to just do is just easy for our just God to just, you know, just accomplish his purpose in us just... it doesn't have to be that way, any more than liturical worship needs to be as prissy, dull and out of touch as such a lot of it is, mostly because prissy, dull, timid, and buttoned-up fearful people can't do anything or say anything in church until some twat in a funny hat in Rome or Canterbury says they can, in the utterly erroneous belief that God has given said twat some special and exclusive power to wield on his behalf.
Like any act of worship, extempore worship can be beautiful, liberating, and God-centred.
I don't condemn liturgical worship, or non-liturgical worship... I am not having a pop at Catholics of any hue per se, nor for that matter Baptists or Pentecostalists, and I'm certainly not defending modern Methodism to the last ditch.
It's just the thought that we are all fiddling while R... probably the wrong metaphor there, actually... the thought that we are congratulating each other on our particular arrangement of the flowers on the windowsill whilst the roof is falling in... it's desperate.
Posts: 276 | From: Essex | Registered: Apr 2005
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
I just get so tired of all the prissiness of it all... not just Caths and Anglo-Caths, as I hoped I made clear... in this case, the idea that we can't possibly worship God properly unless we've got someone's permission to use certain words in a certain way.
I feel exactly the same about the slackness, ugliness and downright stupidity of a lot of non liturgical services. When we worship God we should do it properly not just make things up as we go along. That's why you're a Methodist and I'm a Catholic.
I really hope you're not saying that Methodist worship is slack, ugly and downright stupid.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
I think you're all wrong and a plague on all your houses. Goes rather with the course, doesn't it?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
'making it up as we go along' 'extempore worship'
We call it creative liturgy. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
quote:
Ondergard posted: congratulating each other on our particular arrangement of the flowers on the windowsill whilst the roof is falling in.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Perhaps I should have added to my list above
quote:
Denis Healey was so right when he said that every politician should have a 'hinterland'. So should every priest, minister, professional church-committee person, ecclesiantic, liturgist, prebendary (whatever they are), circuit superintendent....
...deck-chair attendants on the Titanic.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
Sorry I expressed myself badly, I should know better than to post at the end of a fifteen hour night shift. Sleep then post. Sleep then post written out neatly 100 times.
I think it's important that litergy is done properly and is properly authorised. The Catholic church is a hierarchical church. To take away from that is to take away from the essence of Catholicism. That's just how it is.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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beachcomber
Shipmate
# 17294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thyme:
My thoughts exactly Ondergard.
There is another thread somewhere on these boards titled 'Fake mass' about how people train to do/perform/celebrate the mass. And someone said that the training mass (ie before ordination) felt very real. My thought was that it probably was 'real', whatever real means in this context.
I share bread and wine with friends, we've said the words Jesus said etc, etc, and it all feels very real to us. Although I seem to remember another thread where we were told that 'feelings' are irrelevant.
Orfeo on the Ship of Fools 6/7/12 'Religious is not a synonym for Christian thread' said:
quote:
"People are often sufficiently self-centred in their own debate (a Christian-atheist/secular tug-of-war) that it doesn't occur to them that anyone might be outside that debate altogether."
I thought this was so good I kept it in my own personal quote file.
And this is how I feel. When I read the thread about online sacraments it seems to be taken for granted by many that the crux of the matter is whether or not an ordained person can do the business remotely, and how will we know it is a genuine ordained person and so on. But this just all seems to be irrelevant to me.
I expect I will get told off for making a tangent on this thread, but like you I feel increasingly detached from much of the stuff the churches seem to think is important.
So I try to stay outside the debates now and get on with my life. Just wanted you to know you are not alone. I think there are a lot of us about. We look on and quietly despair while those on planet Church look out and wonder why we don't join them.
Mutual incomprehension.
Count me in !
You really have to take what priests and even more bishops say with huge pinch of salt. And when it comes to love, relationships, 'mixed' marroages, and Sex they are almost bound to be off their rockers !
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Helen-Eva:'This is all really interesting and intensely confusing stuff and I am now bewildered in a much more informed way than I was before.'
Posts: 144 | From: bagdad cafe | Registered: Aug 2012
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beachcomber
Shipmate
# 17294
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Posted
I find the threads about vestments, colours and stuff hard to follow or take.
maybe its me
but it don't seem very down to earth (or heavenly).
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Helen-Eva:'This is all really interesting and intensely confusing stuff and I am now bewildered in a much more informed way than I was before.'
Posts: 144 | From: bagdad cafe | Registered: Aug 2012
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rugbyplayingpriest
Shipmate
# 9809
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Posted
Bringing the thread back to its original point.. and being the named blog writer I would have one question and one comment.
My question: What is a 'little Catholic bubble'? What do you mean by this?
My comment: The Ordinariate is in rude health if also in early days. Much like a baby after the trauma and drama of the birth we now need time to develop in the loving arms of our new Mother.
Only time will tell if the Ordinariate develops into a lasting charism/body or if it will have been a significant moment with a prophetic message for its time.
I dont mind which it is as being Catholic is wonderful and there is so much life for all of us within it. If my blog is running out of steam (which I do not think is true) it is because there is much less to get steamed up by within the mainstream that there was from the edges of a ghetto.
The real tragedy is those I see who couldn't/wouldn't join for whatever reason and who I also know would be so very much happier here. Put crudely we belong here and dont in the C of E.
Posts: 130 | From: Kent | Registered: Jul 2005
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beachcomber
Shipmate
# 17294
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Posted
As the rcc itself is separated from the Church (I hate to say it) then Ordinariate v. C of E etc is moot.
[ 07. September 2012, 15:38: Message edited by: beachcomber ]
Posts: 144 | From: bagdad cafe | Registered: Aug 2012
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by beachcomber:
As the rcc itself is separated from the Church (I hate to say it) then Ordinariate v. C of E etc is moot.
Nope. Whichever way you read that, it still makes fuck-all sense.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Solly
Shipmate
# 11919
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Posted
quote:
My question: What is a 'little Catholic bubble'? What do you mean by this?
Your posts were beginning not to stray outside of the Pembury bubble, which I took as a good sign that you were feeling more settled. I do wonder if some of your uberCatholic posts mystify your flock of former Anglicans, but I suppose former Anglicans like former cigarette smokers are zealous in their renunciation of their previous bad habits lest they reach once more for the packet. I thought it very sweet that you were taken aback when Catholics you met at the Newman Society expressed the hope that the Ordinariate converts would bring liberal Anglicanism with them.
I somehow don't think the Ordinariate will take off in the way that you would all like, i.e. so that you retain your Anglican identity. I don't see that it matters though: if you are absorbed into mainstream Catholicism, so be it.
Posts: 70 | From: Sussex UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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chiltern_hundred
Shipmate
# 13659
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Posted
Well, Ordinariate life may be a bit humdrum at the moment, but three Ordinariate ordinands are starting their studies in Oxford at the end of September.
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
I've never understood exactly what the 'Anglican Identity' or 'Patrimony' is.
Truly, I would be glad to know and welcome any answers.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Harold Darke died in 1976. Difficult to see how he could count as being Victorian. In what way is Darke in F emotional?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Solly
Shipmate
# 11919
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Posted
quote:
I've never understood exactly what the 'Anglican Identity' or 'Patrimony' is.
Nor me. Perhaps rugbyplayingpriest can help us out.
Does it mean the BCP, Matins, Evensong - that sort of thing? But if it does, what would the priest wear to conduct these services? How does the three Oxford ordinands' training differ from the regular RC seminary training? And if it doesn't, what is the point?
Perhaps the Holy Father simply wanted to introduce muscular Anglican/Methodist hymns and increase the number of RC priests.
Posts: 70 | From: Sussex UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by beachcomber:
As the rcc itself is separated from the Church (I hate to say it) then Ordinariate v. C of E etc is moot.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Harold Darke died in 1976. Difficult to see how he could count as being Victorian. In what way is Darke in F emotional?
His setting is in the mode of the Victorians - unlike, say, Palestrina.
As for emotions - hear the great organ peals during the hosannas, the heart-wrenching solos during the opening of the Sanctus.
It is melodramatic - the sort of thing I enjoyed singing when I was a teenager.
[ 08. September 2012, 08:45: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
Well, Ordinariate life may be a bit humdrum at the moment, but three Ordinariate ordinands are starting their studies in Oxford at the end of September.
Fascinating - as I understand it, the initial training to be a Catholic priest involves 7 years at a seminary.
Are these people who were in orders in the C of E who are receiving some kind of top up training before being re-ordained in the Catholic Church, or is the Ordinariate acting as a separate Church with its own selection procedures, training and orders?
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Yes, I was wondering that. And if the latter, are priests recruited within the Ordinariate allowed to marry, or to be married? Or are they only allowed to keep wives if they were already priests and already married when they were 'schismatics'?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
I think (but maybe mistaken) that unmarried ex Anglican priests who join the Ordinariate are not allowed to marry subsequently, and those training or wanting to be selected for training are not allowed to be married or marry in the future.
I think it is only ex Anglican priests already married that can be married.
(A bit muddled that, but I hope you get the gist).
Basically exactly the same as it was before the Ordinariate when Anglican priests crossed over.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by beachcomber:
As the rcc itself is separated from the Church (I hate to say it) then Ordinariate v. C of E etc is moot.
The second day of reading, I still can't figure out this sentence. Perhaps with a Merbecke setting, it might make more sense?
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thyme:
I think (but maybe mistaken) that unmarried ex Anglican priests who join the Ordinariate are not allowed to marry subsequently, and those training or wanting to be selected for training are not allowed to be married or marry in the future.
I think it is only ex Anglican priests already married that can be married.
(A bit muddled that, but I hope you get the gist).
Basically exactly the same as it was before the Ordinariate when Anglican priests crossed over.
I suspected that might be the case. In which case, it's hardly being faithful to the Anglican patrimony which assumes most clergy will be married.
It's also not consistent with what applies to Eastern Rite Catholics. Or is this the punishment for returning to the fold from somewhere that until 450 years ago came under the western patriarchate?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Article 6.1 of the Complementary Norms for the Apostolic Constitution provides a potential opening for the future priestly ordination of married candidates, but I gather that the "objective norms" referred to have not yet been finalized. I have no idea if this will be forthcoming, but the authors of the text (as well as its papal signatory) can hardly have been oblivious to the long-term implications of the wording. But for the time being, I would say that they are only thinking of married ex-Anglican clergy who would be getting (re)ordained. I gather that the authorities require the consent of candidate's wife before ordination and, judging by photos and accounts of (re)ordinations, the wives and families take a visible role, with the wife often assisting in the priestly vesting of their husband.
Article 10 answers the above questions on seminary training. I gather from one of my contacts that the more common stream of Anglican theological training (BA + BD/MDiv) gets supplemented either by a short course (3-6 months) RC seminary classes on pastoral practice & canon law or, in exceptional cases, some distance or night-course work under supervision. Some of the delay for the (re)ordaining of other-stream clergy is that some had very minimal or sketchy academic training, and they are looking at 1-2 year course packages to supplement what they had. Knowing a few of them, I think that much more would be required.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Maureen Lash
Apprentice
# 17192
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Posted
Though it is barely relevant to the matter of the failed Ordinariate experiment, Leo's remark about Darke in F is quite the stupidest comment I've read on this thread, and a sure indication that once Christian Orthodoxy has been abandoned every other kind of sense goes out of the window with it.
Darke wrote his Communion Service in F in 1926, a quarter of a century after the death of Queen Victoria. As to being in Victorian "mode' it is true that it is 'modal' in its harmonic language, with one of its characteristic features being the E flat to F cadence. This makes it very un-Victorian in style and puts it more alongside the emerging 'English' style of Vaughan Williams and Sumsion etc.
As to emotional, that may be more descriptive of the cognitive state of the hearer rather than the music itself, unless, of course one counts grandeur and numinosity as emotions.
Barry Rose considered Dark in F the greatest piece of Anglican church music ever written. Whether it is or not, it is certainly a very worthy piece of Anglican patrimony to export.
Posts: 32 | From: Moseley | Registered: Jul 2012
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
At the risk of being taken to task.......
......is it just me, or do others see the Ordinariate (at least in the UK) as a complete and nonsensical waste of time and effort?
Surely, if the C of E is Pants filled with Poo, and Rome is the only True Church, then why not do (as several of our congo have done - with some honesty and integrity, ISTM) and simply join the mainstream Roman Catholic Church?
Or am I missing something obvious and fundamental to the continuance of the True Faith?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I'm not being snarky - I just don't see the point of the Ordinariate.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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