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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I just don't see the point of the Ordinariate.

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The point is in the name. Anglicanorum coetibus. Groups of Anglicans. A methodology whereby a priest and a number of his people can convert as a group, staying together. The theory is that it makes a scary journey a whole lot less intimidating. Seems like a good wheeze to me (even if I'm put off a little more every time Fr RPP holds forth here and elsewhere! )

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Originally posted by Fifi:

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I just don't see the point of the Ordinariate.

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The point is in the name. Anglicanorum coetibus. Groups of Anglicans. A methodology whereby a priest and a number of his people can convert as a group, staying together.

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Originally posted by Arrietty:

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Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
Well, Ordinariate life may be a bit humdrum at the moment, but three Ordinariate ordinands are starting their studies in Oxford at the end of September.

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Fascinating - as I understand it, the initial training to be a Catholic priest involves 7 years at a seminary.

Are these people who were in orders in the C of E who are receiving some kind of top up training before being re-ordained in the Catholic Church, or is the Ordinariate acting as a separate Church with its own selection procedures, training and orders?

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Originally posted by Maureen Lash:
Though it is barely relevant to the matter of the failed Ordinariate experiment, Leo's remark about Darke in F is quite the stupidest comment I've read on this thread, and a sure indication that once Christian Orthodoxy has been abandoned every other kind of sense goes out of the window with it.

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Originally posted by Fifi:

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I just don't see the point of the Ordinariate.

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The point is in the name. Anglicanorum coetibus. Groups of Anglicans. A methodology whereby a priest and a number of his people can convert as a group, staying together. The theory is that it makes a scary journey a whole lot less intimidating. Seems like a good wheeze to me (even if I'm put off a little more every time Fr RPP holds forth here and elsewhere! )

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Originally posted by rugbyplayingpriest:
The real tragedy is those I see who couldn't/wouldn't join for whatever reason and who I also know would be so very much happier here. Put crudely we belong here and dont in the C of E.

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A methodology whereby a priest and a number of his people can convert as a group, staying together.

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
At the risk of being taken to task.......

......is it just me, or do others see the Ordinariate (at least in the UK) as a complete and nonsensical waste of time and effort?

Surely, if the C of E is Pants filled with Poo, and Rome is the only True Church, then why not do (as several of our congo have done - with some honesty and integrity, ISTM) and simply join the mainstream Roman Catholic Church?

Or am I missing something obvious and fundamental to the continuance of the True Faith?



I'm not being snarky - I just don't see the point of the Ordinariate.

Ian J.

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Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

Then again, anglo-papalism never caught on here, and the Ordinariate crowd are largely those who left on account of OWP and the new services book in the late 1970s and early 1980s, and would generally qualify as Prayerbook Catholic.

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

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Originally posted by Fifi:

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I just don't see the point of the Ordinariate.

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The point is in the name. Anglicanorum coetibus. Groups of Anglicans. A methodology whereby a priest and a number of his people can convert as a group, staying together. The theory is that it makes a scary journey a whole lot less intimidating. Seems like a good wheeze to me (even if I'm put off a little more every time Fr RPP holds forth here and elsewhere! )

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I find that quite helpful in understanding the purpose of the Ordinariate, as I sort of felt like Bishop's Finger about it.

So, once everyone has moved together is the aim eventually to make the 'Anglican' bit of the 'Anglican coetibus' a redundancy? And do the ex-Anglicans eventually move into a fuller physical assimilation (if you see what I mean!) with ordinary Catholics? No need for different liturgies, or specific categories of Catholics as in 'ex-Anglican Catholics' worshipping together as a separate entity?

Or does the Vatican foresee that there will always be Anglican groups continually wishing to convert over as groups, to Catholicism in this fashion, for whatever future reasons there may be? And that this new way of receiving new members is the way to do it?

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You are missing the point completely. There is no need for (and it contradicts the entire point of the Ordinariates) "fuller physical assimilation". These people are fully Catholic. They just happen to have a distinctive liturgical and spiritual tradition, a permanent home for which has been established under the terms of Anglicanorum coetibus.

Protestants really have a bizarre notion that the Catholic Church is monolithically Novus Ordo Roman Rite.

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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria

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Originally posted by CL:

Protestants really have a bizarre notion that the Catholic Church is monolithically Novus Ordo Roman Rite.

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Though it would be interesting to discover if they have become more Anglican, not less, since becoming Catholics.

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Originally posted by Angloid:
But the majority of (English) ordinariate clergy were using that rite before their 'conversion', so why do they need a special Anglican-flavoured bit of the Catholic Church?

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:
My understanding at present is that despite all the talk of Anglican Patrimony the irony of Ordinariate members is they never used Common Worship (or BCP) favouring the Roman Rite and now they HAVE to use the Missal.

Patrimony I see no Patrimony.

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I've been doing a bit of googling trying to get some concrete idea of what the Anglican patrimony is in this context, and it is like trying to plait mist.

I understand the point of groups of people joining the RCC as groups, thanks Fifi, but I still don't see why all the effort and expense of setting up Ordinariates was necessary.

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Augustine the Aleut says it just happens in Canada within the existing structures:
I think that the answer would be that you are missing something relevant, that Catholicism's continuance is not bound to a particular rite or use. I will let folks in England speak from their experience, but in Canada we are accustomed to: a) a general division between anglophone and francophone RCs (many dioceses have anglo and franco vicariates-general, and dedicated auxiliary bishops for each group), b) a second division with ethnic and heritage language parishes (within half an hour's walk, I can attend RC services in Latin, German, Croatian, Italian, Portuguese, Tagalog, Malayalam and Polish), and c) several sui juris churches with their own hierarchies (in Ottawa alone, Latin, Ukrainian, Slovak, Melkite, Maronite, Coptic, Malankarese). Renfrew, Ontario (pop. 4500), boasts three RC parishes, French, English, and Polish.

So when someone says, go to a mainstream RC church, the answer can easily be: Which one? In this context, Anglican-use parishes are no problem. If there's a population that wants that, it seems to be fine by Benedict, and the local hierarchies appear to be supportive.

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:
My understanding at present is that despite all the talk of Anglican Patrimony the irony of Ordinariate members is they never used Common Worship (or BCP) favouring the Roman Rite and now they HAVE to use the Missal.

Patrimony I see no Patrimony.

Fly Safe, Pyx_e

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Originally posted by CL:
You are missing the point completely. There is no need for (and it contradicts the entire point of the Ordinariates) "fuller physical assimilation". These people are fully Catholic. They just happen to have a distinctive liturgical and spiritual tradition, a permanent home for which has been established under the terms of Anglicanorum coetibus.

Protestants really have a bizarre notion that the Catholic Church is monolithically Novus Ordo Roman Rite.

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Well, gee, thanks for answering my genuine questions. Personally, I think it's bizarre that my questions should be considered bizarre!

I also find it bizarre (though not necessarily in a bad way) that one Church communion should apparently create a virtual enclave to make it possible for entire groups and ordained priests of another Church communion to convert to that first Church's communion but apparently still maintaining some fundamental essence of the second Church's communion, which was presumably not essential to the first Church Communion!

Presumably there must also be some kind of future envisaged for such an enclave, so it seems reasonable to wonder how that works. Especially if the current creation was in response to particular current events. And to also wonder what the implications are for those ex-Anglicans who became Catholics with their group, rather than individually, worshipping together in their particular way.

I appreciate that there is more than one way to be a Roman Catholic liturgically, I really do. I'm just curious about how an ordinariate of this nature works in practice, and in the long-term. I may be a Protestant and a very happily committed Anglican with not the least inclination to move elsewhere; but I think it's okay to know as much about this phenomenon as possible, isn't it?

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1. Does this mean that the Ordinariate has PCCs?

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2. Does it have many lay people?

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3. If the style of choral music really is 'the distinctive feature', is this enough to sustain an identity? And will it mean the Ordinariate
will be forever frozen in the musical styles of 2012 rather as some of the presbyterian break away groups are frozen in the style of 1670?

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4. Do Ordinariate parishes use modern music, of the sort fairly popular in less extreme Anglo-Catholic parishes? Or are they actually musically stuck in 1952?

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Some may regard this as a tangent, and others may be surprised to hear this, but over the years, I've encountered quite a lot of seepage in the opposite direction, including priests. Although I agree with +London on use in his diocese of the Novus Ordo, would an alternative be to authorise it under stringent restraints, to provide a reverse ordinariate.

Only former Catholic clergy, and possibly female former lay Catholics who had been subsequently been ordained as Anglicans would be permitted to celebrate. The Novus Ordo would have to be altered slightly to be compatible with an Anglo-Catholic understanding of the Eucharist and to sound less like a literal translation of Latin - e.g. by reverting to 'cup' and not 'chalice'. It would have its own songbook, with specifically Catholic 1970s guitar music. Graham Kendrick and the Gettys would be forbidden. Would there be any demand for such a thing?

By the way, before anyone thinks I'm expressing my own prejudices, I like the Gettys' music a lot, and quite a lot of Kendrick as long as there isn't too much of it.

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Originally posted by Trisagion:
I have a list of those who might be delighted to avail themselves of your kind offer. I have a slightly longer list of those who I might be delighted to send you. I know many Anglicans were delighted to see the back of a number of those who joined the Ordinariate: it cuts both ways.

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They just happen to have a distinctive liturgical and spiritual tradition, a permanent home for which has been established under the terms of Anglicanorum coetibus

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But do they have a 'distinctive liturgical and spiritual tradition'? I always regarded myself as an Anglo-Catholic until I went to Mass at S Bartholomew's in Brighton: it was like watching Three Little Maids From School from The Mikado. I was transfixed - and bored because I like to participate in the Mass. That is not my dls tradition although I surmise it is RPP's. I shouldn't think it appeals to many RC's either - unless they have a passion for light opera. If all ACs defected to the Ordinariate they would not take a shared dls tradition with them.

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Originally posted by Thyme:
@Augustine the Aleut - I don't understand any of it, and I think I will stop trying. My understanding or lack of it won't make any difference so I'm probably better off doing my knitting. Someone here has a sig about being bewildered in a much more informed way than before which is how I feel.

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Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
@Trisagion- do note that there are different Anglican responses to the Ordinariate. Solly is one, I may be another.

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Originally posted by Trisagion:
I have a list of those who might be delighted to avail themselves of your kind offer. I have a slightly longer list of those who I might be delighted to send you. I know many Anglicans were delighted to see the back of a number of those who joined the Ordinariate: it cuts both ways.

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Originally posted by Trisagion:

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Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
@Trisagion- do note that there are different Anglican responses to the Ordinariate. Solly is one, I may be another.

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Indeed, but if this thread is anything to go by you appear to be a minority of one.

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Originally posted by Trisagion:

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Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
@Trisagion- do note that there are different Anglican responses to the Ordinariate. Solly is one, I may be another.

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Indeed, but if this thread is anything to go by you appear to be a minority of one.

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I'd like to know where the 'bad grace' was in my questions.

I was netural, if not hopeful, about the Ordinariate. I didn't see it as an opportunity to off-load embarrassing tat queens or undesirables (whoever they are). Losing fellow Anglicans - even to another part of the Christian Church - is a real form of bereavement in some ways. Though I've always wished Ordinariate members all the best.

I tried to express the questions I've had as clearly as I could. If I offended anyone, I really didn't mean to.

However, apparently, I'm just a Protestant with 'bizarre' ideas, offending sensitive souls with 'bad grace' and 'conjecture' . Guess that puts me in my place; maybe I'd just better keep my queries about the Catholic Church for my own Catholic friends - lay and clergy.

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Originally posted by rugbyplayingpriest:

It really is clever. And, in fact, the whole C of E could accept the offer and heal the reformation rift. What stops people is Protestant views. Fine. But no longer can it be claimed that Rome is not opening the door.

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Two points. From the point of view of many Christians, the Reformation(s) were not merely a regrettable incident brought about by a handful of rebellious sons of the Church family who didn't know when to keep their mouths shut; it was essential for the integrity of the work of the Holy Spirit within the universal Body of Christ. The fact that significant sections of the Church worldwide do not see the reformation as a 'rift to be healed' but as something to be circumspectly grateful for, is really a bigger problem for the RCC than for non-Catholics.

Secondly, to paraphrase your post, 'we'd all be happy Roman Catholics by now if it weren't for those pesky Protestants.' Er... what an ecumenically progressive attitude. Except, of course, it's not.

Yes, the Pope is holding the door open. The door to his own Church and his own authority. Fair enough. It wouldn't make a lick of sense for him to do anything else. But while it may seem inexplicable or sinfully ignorant, nevertheless, at least some of those of us who do not seek to put ourselves under the particular authority of the RCC are very happy with that situation and believe ourselves to be in a better place, every bit as much as those who do go to Rome. We can even live with the idea that our Catholic brethren may consider us deluded and doctrinally inferior, for being so.

Though it's probably too much to expect us to be grateful for your attempting to point this out to us at every opportunity! Albeit so ecumenically, of course.

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
From the point of view of many Christians, the Reformation(s) were not merely a regrettable incident brought about by a handful of rebellious sons of the Church family who didn't know when to keep their mouths shut; it was essential for the integrity of the work of the Holy Spirit within the universal Body of Christ. The fact that significant sections of the Church worldwide do not see the reformation as a 'rift to be healed' but as something to be circumspectly grateful for, is really a bigger problem for the RCC than for non-Catholics.

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Originally posted by Albertus:
It's certainly made Rome's attitude to ecumenism clearer: 'Look, we're perfectly happy for you to keep some of your practices and patrimony. In fact, we think we'd all be enriched by you doing so. All we're asking is that you believe what we believe and accept our authority, and then we can all be one. Simples!'

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Originally posted by rugbyplayingpriest:
The Anglican brain sees everything in congregationalist terms...

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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I would call the reformation a regrettable necessity, and the schism that resulted as regrettable but unnecessary. A little humility from the Pope as to the problems within the church and a little magnaminity towards those who had pointed them out would have healed a lot of wounds. Saying "my way or the highway" isn't ecumenism.

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Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
The massive proportion of receptions to the Ordinariate being clergy speaks for itself, and for the nature/purpose of the venture from the AC point of view. I don't think Rome quite understood this, but I could be wrong.

Fair play to the clergy who have instead gone through the existing diocesan systems, risking non-selection.

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First, "the massive proportion of receptions to the Ordinariate being clergy" makes it sound as if the majority of "ordinariti" are clerics - which is of course ridiculous. But perhaps you didn't mean to imply that.

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:

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First, "the massive proportion of receptions to the Ordinariate being clergy" makes it sound as if the majority of "ordinariti" are clerics - which is of course ridiculous. But perhaps you didn't mean to imply that.

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You know exactly what was meant.

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I would estimate about 100 clergy and 1000 lay. So the proportion of clerical or lay conversions set against the usual proportion of lay to clerical in a parish is way out of kilter. There are proportionally more clerics.

The Ordinariate clergy also has a much higher age profile than the C of E, being mostly pensioners.

Fly Safe, Pyx_e

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Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
The massive proportion of receptions to the Ordinariate being clergy speaks for itself ...

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