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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Ordinariate Blues
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
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An ordinariate for the Torres Strait is progressing albeit slowly and with the considerable help of the local Catholic Bishop.
[/QUOTE]
The local Catholic bishop should be fully aware of the particular vagaries of Torres Strait Islander relationships. Like with most small ethnic groups these can be extremely divisive. I hope he informs the Vatican appropriately. TI religious politics can be quite diabolical and it is important that the Vatican not be seen to be on the side of one particular family group.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Godric
Apprentice
# 17135
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Posted
My question is whether or not the ordinariate is signed up to the idea of 'human rights', 'equality of opportunity' and the anti-discriminatory legislation that exisits in the UK and which is familiar to Anglicans. If the the ordinariate cannot sign up to such [Legal] equality issues should any of us be entertaining the ordinariate as a possible alternative home for traditionalist Catholicism?
Godric ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I write about funeral and burials at http://godsacre.blogspot.co.uk/
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I write on funerals and burials http://godsacre.blogspot.co.uk/
Posts: 28 | From: England and Malta | Registered: May 2012
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Godric:
My question is whether or not the ordinariate is signed up to the idea of 'human rights', 'equality of opportunity' and the anti-discriminatory legislation that exisits in the UK and which is familiar to Anglicans. If the the ordinariate cannot sign up to such [Legal] equality issues should any of us be entertaining the ordinariate as a possible alternative home for traditionalist Catholicism?
Godric
I write about funeral and burials at http://godsacre.blogspot.co.uk/
What in the name of God are you wittering about?
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I'm not aware that the C of E is signed up to those things.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Maureen Lash
Apprentice
# 17192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Godric:
My question is yada yada yada...
What in the name of God are you wittering about?
Quite.
Posts: 32 | From: Moseley | Registered: Jul 2012
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Godric:
My question is whether or not the ordinariate is signed up to the idea of 'human rights', 'equality of opportunity' and the anti-discriminatory legislation that exisits in the UK and which is familiar to Anglicans.
Anglicans may be familiar with these things, but I don't think they all actually apply to them, do they? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Solly
Shipmate
# 11919
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Posted
quote:
My question is whether or not the ordinariate is signed up to the idea of 'human rights', 'equality of opportunity' and the anti-discriminatory legislation that exisits in the UK and which is familiar to Anglicans.
Religion is a 'protected characteristic' under the Equality Act which also allows religions limited dispensation to discriminate with regard to other protected characteristics such as sexual orientation. However the arguments against women priests and particularly homosexuality from some Ordinariatees (and others) appear to be rooted in disgust and bigotry rather than the Bible. Makes me wonder, sometimes, why I persevere with my faith.
Posts: 70 | From: Sussex UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Maureen Lash
Apprentice
# 17192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Solly:
However the arguments against women priests and particularly homosexuality from some Ordinariatees (and others) appear to be rooted in disgust and bigotry rather than the Bible. Makes me wonder, sometimes, why I persevere with my faith.
This sounds very much like liberal bigotry to me. In my experience, those who are opposed to women arrogating the priesthood, and novel interpretations of the marriage ordinance, do so only because scripture and tradition tell them to take this course.
Posts: 32 | From: Moseley | Registered: Jul 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
... only because their interpretation of scripture and tradition tell them to take this course.
[ 15. September 2012, 20:49: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Maureen Lash:
In my experience, those who are opposed to women arrogating the priesthood, and novel interpretations of the marriage ordinance, do so only because scripture and tradition tell them to take this course.
You need to get out more then. There are a large number of women-haters around. Perhaps you are just lucky you have never met them.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Solly:
Religion is a 'protected characteristic' under the Equality Act which also allows religions limited dispensation to discriminate with regard to other protected characteristics such as sexual orientation. However the arguments against women priests and particularly homosexuality from some Ordinariatees (and others) appear to be rooted in disgust and bigotry rather than the Bible. Makes me wonder, sometimes, why I persevere with my faith.
Then there are those Ordinariatees (as you put it) like myself that are gay and don't really give a shit either way about women priests. I have to say that although I've heard things about woman priests from other members of the Ordinariate that I dislike (and I have always challenged), I have never had anyone say anything negative about my sexuality at all.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Solly
Shipmate
# 11919
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Posted
quote:
I have never had anyone say anything negative about my sexuality at all
With respect, you wouldn't, would you, seeing as Christians are always terribly nice to each other? As the loving parent of a gay man, I have heard everything from the conflation of homosexuality with paedophilia to the suggestion that marriage to a nice woman would be a sure-fire cure. I won't go into the expressions of disgust over 'what they do'. And then of course they say, "I have nothing against them as long as they are celebate" - at which point I have the unChristian urge to sling the nearest large object at them.
Ordinariatees are probably encouraged to give reasons other than women priests and bishops and CofE tolerance of homosexuality (amongst other tolerances) as their reasons for leaving the Church of England because it looks better. And for some, their reasons really are based on scripture and tradition and can therefore be respected But for others (the majority?)- it's plain, old fashioned intolerance and bigotry.
As an Anglo-Catholic, I will shut up before I shoot myself in the foot.
Posts: 70 | From: Sussex UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Solly:
Ordinariatees are probably encouraged to give reasons other than women priests and bishops and CofE tolerance of homosexuality (amongst other tolerances) as their reasons for leaving the Church of England because it looks better. And for some, their reasons really are based on scripture and tradition and can therefore be respected But for others (the majority?)- it's plain, old fashioned intolerance and bigotry.
I think there is a degree of paranoia in what you're saying. I've never ever heard anyone tell anyone to give any reasons at all for leaving the Church of England. Are you saying that members of the Ordinariate are such a bunch of sheep that they'll bow their heads and just repeat what they're told by some mythical other that controls their minds?
I've had many discussions with other members of the Ordinariate about woman priests and homosexuality. The only person whom I found being bigoted was an AC who didn't actually end up joining the Ordinariate. The only comment I've ever had about my sexuality from anyone was from a woman in her seventies who when I mentioned being gay said, 'Oh I've always wondered what it would be like to sleep with a woman.'
As for it only being said behind my back, I don't think that's true. I keep my ear to the ground and I'm very aware of what people say. If you think AC's can say awful things you should try growing up a gay wee free. I genuinely do not believe that your 'experience' is normative or based on anything other than bigotry itself.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Now I'm really confused. Is the Catholic church more favourable to homosexuality than the CofE?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
The Catholic church always tries to point to the ideal situation. Men and women together in sexual relations are the way forward for the production of the next generation of human beings.
The ideal,however, can not always be achieved and we have to live with our imperfections in all human relationships,not only sexual relationships.
Whilst pointing always to the ideal the Catholic church recognises and can live with the failure to achieve the ideal.
Love,including the love between people of the same sex, can cover a multitude of 'sins'.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Forthview I don't think you answered the question. Did you omit to on purpose?
Fly Safe, Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Much of a muchness really. Both are officially against it. In both you will find more liberal opinions among the rank and file than among the hierarchy. And both have thriving gay subcultures.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Godric
Apprentice
# 17135
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Posted
The big issue for many young people is "why do so many gay men and women continue to subjugate themselves to a homophobic Church?" whether or not the label on the outside of the building is 'Anglican' or 'Ordinariate'
I compile a blog on funerals and burials at http://godsacre.blogspot.co.uk/ and sometimes deal with theological matters
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I write on funerals and burials http://godsacre.blogspot.co.uk/
Posts: 28 | From: England and Malta | Registered: May 2012
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Godric:
The big issue for many young people is "why do so many gay men and women continue to subjugate themselves to a homophobic Church?" whether or not the label on the outside of the building is 'Anglican' or 'Ordinariate'
I compile a blog on funerals and burials at http://godsacre.blogspot.co.uk/ and sometimes deal with theological matters
Oh for crying out loud. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Solly
Shipmate
# 11919
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Posted
quote:
I genuinely do not believe that your 'experience' is normative or based on anything other than bigotry itself.
You've lost me there.
It is good to know that you have experienced no problems.
Me - I practice equality law so perhaps that accounts for the paranoia.
Posts: 70 | From: Sussex UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Solly
Shipmate
# 11919
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Posted
quote:
I genuinely do not believe that your 'experience' is normative or based on anything other than bigotry itself.
You've lost me there.
It is good to know that you have experienced no problems.
Me - I practice equality law so perhaps that accounts for the paranoia.
Posts: 70 | From: Sussex UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Pyx-e I'm sorry if I didn't attempt to answer directly the question which Enoch put.
I simply have no idea of what the answer to the question is.
I do know what the official opinion of the Catholic church to homosexuality is.
I don't really know what the opinion of the CodE is.
I do know the difference between the 'ideal' and the 'reality' of certain situations within the Catholic church and that is what I tried to express.Whether that helps Enoch or not I don't know as I think that he is almost certain to reamin confused.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Whether that helps Enoch or not I don't know as I think that he is almost certain to remain confused.
You're right. He does.
A simple question though. Is a lay Catholic who has entered into a civil partnership and is not sexually abstinent, required not to take communion. I understand this is the case for a lay Catholic who has entered into a marriage while either party has a previous spouse still living?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Maureen Lash
Apprentice
# 17192
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Posted
A lay catholic in a civil partnership who has failed to be sexually abstinent will have committed a mortal sin and therefore must seek absolution before he presume to receive holy communion. I should have thought that that was simple enough to understand. Next question.
Posts: 32 | From: Moseley | Registered: Jul 2012
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
What Maureen just said.*
Not for the first time, I'm afraid, Forthview's pronouncements on what the Catholic Church does and doesn't teach are cautioning on the side of error. I daresay it is meant well, but I would respectfully request that s/he desist from misleading others. Catholic teaching on this is pretty crystal-clear, and I find it hard to believe that Forthview isn't aware of this.
Quite seriously, portraying Catholic teaching as being "fluffier" than it actually is doing everyone an injustice. Do cut it out.
*Sounds like something overheard in a launderette, dunnit?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Maureen Lash:
A lay catholic in a civil partnership who has failed to be sexually abstinent will have committed a mortal sin and therefore must seek absolution before he presume to receive holy communion. I should have thought that that was simple enough to understand. Next question.
Thank you. That is what I would have expected to be the position. I am no longer confused.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Maureen Lash:
A lay catholic in a civil partnership who has failed to be sexually abstinent will have committed a mortal sin and therefore must seek absolution before he presume to receive holy communion. I should have thought that that was simple enough to understand. Next question.
Why are the queues for the confessionals not round the block?
Fly Safe, Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Exactly, Pyx_e. It's obvious that official Catholic teaching is ignored (or given a 'fluffy' interpretation.) Either that means it is impractical and outdated, or that the majority of practising Catholics are apostate.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Exactly, Pyx_e. It's obvious that official Catholic teaching is ignored (or given a 'fluffy' interpretation.) Either that means it is impractical and outdated, or that the majority of practising Catholics are apostate.
Sorry, that does not follow. I would imagine the majority of practising Catholics are neither in civil partnerships nor wishing to be.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Apologies. My ambiguity. I meant that the majority of practising Catholics see no need to frequent the confessional even if they may have committed 'mortal sins', which consist of many more than sexual ones. In any case, Pyx_e was referring to a post which put gay relationships on a par with illicit heterosexual ones; so while of course the 'majority' of Catholics are not affected, many more than those in civil partnerships are.
[ 19. September 2012, 10:43: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Originally posted by Maureen Lash:
A lay catholic in a civil partnership who has failed to be sexually abstinent will have committed a mortal sin and therefore must seek absolution before he presume to receive holy communion. I should have thought that that was simple enough to understand. Next question.
Why are the queues for the confessionals not round the block?
Fly Safe, Pyx_e
Because when it comes to issues of sexuality, most of us laity, RC and 'high' C of E, don't think the church has anything worthwhile to offer.
And those who do shop round for a decent (which needn't mean 'soft') confessor.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
I wonder if we are seeing with regard to non-heterosexual sexuality and civil partnerships the same sort of phenomenon that happened with Humana Vitae.
The Catholic Church in 1968 fully expected the Pope to make contraception licit, he didn't and huge numbers of laity and clergy decided he was wrong and ignore that teaching.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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rugbyplayingpriest
Shipmate
# 9809
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Posted
You mean like in John 6 when Jesus insisted people must 'eat his flesh' but everyone ignored him anyway and did their own thing?
Posts: 130 | From: Kent | Registered: Jul 2005
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Yeah, that's exactly it.
Thank you for making so clear to me.
Fly Safe, Pyx_e.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Originally posted by Maureen Lash:
A lay catholic in a civil partnership who has failed to be sexually abstinent will have committed a mortal sin and therefore must seek absolution before he presume to receive holy communion. I should have thought that that was simple enough to understand. Next question.
Why are the queues
At least some of them will have stopped going to Mass.
There is a Roman Catholic man who lived on my street who's wife had left him and married another man and had more children by him (Which is exactly the same as my situation, but this man is not me, for one thing I am a Protestant) He was not in any kind of a sexual relationship with anybody, and not looking for one. His parish priest expected him to confess occasional masturbation, which he did, but he came to think of himself as hypocritical because he knew he was likely to do it again sometime and so hadn't really repented. So he went to church less and less and gradually dropped out. He was also quite bitter about it.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Chesterbelloc - I do know exactly what the teaching of the Catholic church is on matters of sexuality and many other things.
I also know what the situation is on the ground and I also know what the difference is between the ideal towards which we strive and the reality with which we live.
I am not talking necessarily here only about sexuality which is only one of the perfections towards which a Christian should aspire.
I am reminded of today's Gospel (in the Roman rite on Wednesday in the 24th week in Ordinary time) Just after the passage in which various people had complained about Jesus we are told that Jesus took his seat at the table of a Pharisee when a woman of immoral life came in and washed his feet.Some people were scandalised
but Jesus thanked her for her good works and told those who were scandalised that her great love proved that her many sins had been forgiven.
It is our Christian duty not to be too easily scandalised by those who do not live up to the ideals of Christianity and we should remember also our own imperfections before being too upset at the imperfections of others.
To me this is certainly not 'fluffy' Catholicism.It is following the teachings of the Master.
In today's readings we have also the words of St Paul 'My knowledge now is partial - but there are three things which last for ever ,faith,hope and love:but the greatest of these is love.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Chesterbelloc - I do know exactly what the teaching of the Catholic church is on matters of sexuality and many other things.
And it is as Maureen Lash posted, is it not? So stop confusing others.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
His parish priest expected him to confess occasional masturbation, which he did, but he came to think of himself as hypocritical because he knew he was likely to do it again sometime and so hadn't really repented. So he went to church less and less and gradually dropped out. He was also quite bitter about it.
This is a really sad story. But surely his parish priest should have told him that a genuine resolve to try not to sin again - even if the man knew he was very likely to - was enough in this situation. Heck, many folks go to the box with pretty much the same list each time, but if they genuinely intend to try to mend their ways there needn't be any hypocrisy involved. I have pretty much given up some sins I had no realistic expectation of quitting after several trips to the box with them. It's part of the grace of the sacrament.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Solly:
However the arguments against women priests and particularly homosexuality from some Ordinariatees (and others) appear to be rooted in disgust and bigotry rather than the Bible.
Apart from the fact that this is veering into dead horse territory, it seems to me that some people on this forum are unable to understand that some of us may want to be Catholics for reasons other than misogyny or homophobia! The second part of the Confiteor is:
"therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God."
All the ideas contained in this one sentence are entirely absent from Protestantism, as is praying for the dead. This theology is why I want to be Catholic, not because I hate women or gays. There are more issues to church membership than women priests or gay marriage. But just as the Catholic Church won't remarry divorcees, because of the sacramental nature of marriage, it can't perform same sex marriages without totally changing the meaning of marriage as it has always been understood. This has nothing to do with homophobia, any more than not ordaining women, which again, changes the understanding of the nature of priesthood, has to do with misogyny.
I am Catholic because I believe that salvation is not just a personal isssue, that we are all in it together, and that, if any souls are lost, then God's plan of salvation is incomplete. So I hope that the Church Triumphant will pray for me, as I pray for the souls of the departed. These, to me, are the important issues of why an individual would choose to belong to a certain faith.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
PaulTH, if you think those ideas are absent from Anglo-Catholicism you are very severely mistaken. This includes all we catholic Anglicans who really have no time for the pretenses of the Bp of Rome.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
PaulTH, if you think those ideas are absent from Anglo-Catholicism you are very severely mistaken. This includes all we catholic Anglicans who really have no time for the pretenses of the Bp of Rome.
Not my observation of catholic Anglicans who always seem rather keen on the Bishop of Rome, whatever his pretenses are, often more so than the Archbishop of Canterbury. This despite the fact that in recent years so many anglican Catholics have fled to Rome that one might have expected the filter to have left a residue of extreme protestants. There is indeed a minority of anglo-catholics in England made up mostly of clergy of the Affirming Catholicism variety for whom catholicism has taken a back seat to a social liberal agenda but they are a minority I suspect although well represented on all sorts of official bodies.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Caricatures! All of them!
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Caricatures! All of them!
Yes, but only of certain anglicans and most definitely not of the Prophet Mohammed and if there is any suggestion of that you will hear from my lawyers.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
the pretenses of the Bp of Rome.
I thought the phrase was "The Bishop of Rome and all his detestable enormities".
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
the pretenses of the Bp of Rome.
I thought the phrase was "The Bishop of Rome and all his detestable enormities".
He was merely using a shorthand for "The Scarlet Whore of Babylon".
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Solly:
However the arguments against women priests and particularly homosexuality from some Ordinariatees (and others) appear to be rooted in disgust and bigotry rather than the Bible.
Apart from the fact that this is veering into dead horse territory, it seems to me that some people on this forum are unable to understand that some of us may want to be Catholics for reasons other than misogyny or homophobia! The second part of the Confiteor is:
"therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God."
All the ideas contained in this one sentence are entirely absent from Protestantism, as is praying for the dead. This theology is why I want to be Catholic, not because I hate women or gays. There are more issues to church membership than women priests or gay marriage. But just as the Catholic Church won't remarry divorcees, because of the sacramental nature of marriage, it can't perform same sex marriages without totally changing the meaning of marriage as it has always been understood. This has nothing to do with homophobia, any more than not ordaining women, which again, changes the understanding of the nature of priesthood, has to do with misogyny.
I am Catholic because I believe that salvation is not just a personal isssue, that we are all in it together, and that, if any souls are lost, then God's plan of salvation is incomplete. So I hope that the Church Triumphant will pray for me, as I pray for the souls of the departed. These, to me, are the important issues of why an individual would choose to belong to a certain faith.
OK, but why are you not Orthodox ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I cannot answer for another, but maybe because the question might be seen to be: 'are you, or are you not, with Peter?'
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I cannot answer for another, but maybe because the question might be seen to be: 'are you, or are you not, with Peter?'
Would that be St Peter, founder of the Antiochian Orthodox Church?
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It's a sort of pascal's wager issue really - if you leave a 'schismatic' church because you want to be sure you are receiving the entirety of the tradition and are grafted onto the body of the church - surely you join the most exclusive church that is recognised as valid by everybody else. That way you can be absolutely sure.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I would have thought that it could be more readily argued that if one were concerned about receiving the faith in the plenitude of catholic and orthodox tradition, one would opt for one of the Orthodox churches of the East, since these bodies unquestionably preserve the doctrine and praxis of the early Fathers most faithfully and authentically, relatively unencumbered by later accretions and doctrinal innovations.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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