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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Ordinariate Blues
Solly
Shipmate
# 11919

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Chive:
quote:
We have an exciting future being part of the Catholic church. For many of us the journey has been difficult and getting used to the culture of a new faith community has been hard but that is what we have been called to do and that is what we should be concentrating our energies from.
I converted and was a reasonably contented Catholic for eight years until I realised that the RCC 'made his love too narrow.......' It is good to be back.
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Triple Tiara

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# 9556

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I have never experienced the Catholic Church making "His love too narrow". I wonder what on earth you are talking about.

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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Organ Builder
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# 12478

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Oh the unkindest of cuts--quoting one of Fr. Faber's hymns in remarks against the Catholic Church!

"But we make His love too narrow
By false limits of our own;
And we magnify His strictness
With a zeal He will not own."

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Solly
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Exactly!
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Triple Tiara

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# 9556

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Well, how sad I am that you should say that is what you experienced as a Catholic, especially with your emphatic "Exactly!"

But I am glad if you have found the gate that is wide and the way that is easy that is satisfactory to you.

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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Many of us would be happy to accord the Bishop of Rome primacy of honour and a role not dissimilar to HM the Queen with residual powers, but who cannot accept the legitimacy of the historic papal pretensions to universal metropolitical jurisdiction nor the overall cocncept of the papal magisterium. We even may think Christianity would be better off with an expanded oecumenical role for the Bishop of Rome. In America this was certainly more the view historically than one of Anglo-papalism.
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Triple Tiara

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# 9556

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Well you are pissing into the wind LsK. The Bishop of Rome has never been some toothless old fairy godmother sitting in the corner. You need to look more closely at ecclesiastical history and ecclesiology in the first millennium: the Bishop of Rome did quite a lot of curtailing of pretensions back then, especially when it came to the pretensions of the Bishop of Constantinople. This idea that people revolted against the pretensions of the Bishop of Rome is a lot of convenient rot. It's when people were told "no" to some new pretension of their own that they threw their toys out of the pram, and conveniently said the Pope was being a bully. It happened in Constantinople and it happened with Henry VIII.

Now, scale back the rhetoric about pretensions and all that, and I'll scale back mine.

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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Sir Pellinore
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The "narrowness" previously referred to is patently obviously that of limited people and not the Almighty. It is alive and well in all denominations although its expression may vary. Some who loudly proclaim their "openness" are often really the most narrow minded.

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Well...

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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With all respect Fr TT, it is far from clear to many that the office of the Roman Pontifex Maximus as it has progressively developed was anything more than post-imperial Roman State Exceptionalism (think of the same thing occurring in America). I agree that various assertions of papal jurisdiction potentiated the schisms of East and West, as well as the later schism of the Reformation. The solution in the West
IMO is for the churches of the Reformation to take a reformed papacy back into themselves and for the Papacy to largely accept the critiques of the Eastern Orthodox as well as of the Reformation (which are obviously different but not entirely alien to one another as regards the Petrine claims).

This really is not meant to be controversialist rhetoric.

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Triple Tiara

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# 9556

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The dispute is, indeed, old hat. But use of words such as "pretensions" is polemical.

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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If "pretensions" is deemed offensive - which is not my intent - I could suggest phrases like "claims we consider historically specious, etc,etc " , yet that sounds no more charitable to me . Indeed less so. IMO only if we can agree the centrality of the Holy Eucharist and a basic doctrine of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass will we have a basis for coming together -- and again this would be a coming together centred on the Sacrament of the Altar (and of course our common baptism) rather than upon Issues of polity and discipline. Only such a radical move could lead to organic transformation.
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Augustine the Aleut
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I thought that the pretensions were to universal ordinary jurisdiction, not metropolitical. Mind you, I suppose that this is not a major distinction in practice, or in polemic.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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You may be right, Augustine. I have seen it framed in terms of metropolitical jurisdiction, but the reality would seem to be a universal ordinary jurisdiction. I can affirm almost all the content of the documents of Vatican II, yet have to take exception in those to the consistent references to the Roman Pontiff as the (Ordinary/Metropolitical)Head of the Church here in earth. These references typically occur in context of some reference to essential Church polity.
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Triple Tiara

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That's fine LsK. But then you must permit me the corresponding right to always refer to Anglican pretensions to Catholicity, or Anglican pretensions to an episcopacy.

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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Anselmina
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# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
That's fine LsK. But then you must permit me the corresponding right to always refer to Anglican pretensions to Catholicity, or Anglican pretensions to an episcopacy.

Why not. We're all entitled to be wrong in our own way.

It must be hard, if one is truly convinced of the superiority of one's own position, to completely eliminate the polemical tone you yourself employ. And we all do it, so why should you be any different?

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Augustine the Aleut
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I suppose that one of the key elements leading toward acceptance of B16's offer is that folks realized that their position was so untenable (and I speak primarily of the North American situation as the English one remains incomprehensible to me) that holding on to or resisting pretensions of any sort was a secondary consideration.

While I'm not one of the customers, I can appreciate that B16 and his associates were open enough to accept that different worshipping cultures should not be the barrier and that Borg-like assimilation is not the only approach to unity. If we now see more clearly that there are other barriers, this is not a bad thing. We can perhaps address ourselves to them.

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CL
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# 16145

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Augustine, you may find this interesting:

http://peregrinus-peregrinus.blogspot.de/2012/09/msgr-steenson-meets-3-toronto-area.html

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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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I would have thought that an official organ of the North American Ordinariate would have avoided hyperbolic propaganda about dancing around altars and the meltdown of liberal Christianity in N. America. The more I read of Ordinariate postings, the more I am convinced the adherents show no more maturity than the founders of the Continuing Anglican movement 35 years ago.

But do continue the march into ecclesiastical obscurity, the invisible Continuing Anglican denominations having blazed the trail ahead for you.

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CL
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# 16145

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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I would have thought that an official organ of the North American Ordinariate would have avoided hyperbolic propaganda about dancing around altars and the meltdown of liberal Christianity in N. America. The more I read of Ordinariate postings, the more I am convinced the adherents show no more maturity than the founders of the Continuing Anglican movement 35 years ago.

But do continue the march into ecclesiastical obscurity, the invisible Continuing Anglican denominations having blazed the trail ahead for you.

Official organ? What on earth are you talking about? It's a private blog. [Confused]

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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria

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Magic Wand
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# 4227

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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I would have thought that an official organ of the North American Ordinariate would have avoided hyperbolic propaganda about dancing around altars and the meltdown of liberal Christianity in N. America. The more I read of Ordinariate postings, the more I am convinced the adherents show no more maturity than the founders of the Continuing Anglican movement 35 years ago.

Well, LsK, anyone who attends your parish should know all about "the meltdown of liberal Christianity in N. America." That's what now, about fifteen or sixteen gone in the last year, since Gordon started his campaign of Episcopalianizing the place? And all of them to the Roman Catholic Church, both traditional and Ordinariate. But I'm sure that's just a blip on the radar, right? After all, it still takes two hands to count attendance on Sundays, so things are fine. Now that's what I call a pretension!
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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Magic Wand, you are perhaps unaware that our shack is bringing new people in. Yes, fancy that. Some folks are actually attracted to an Anglo-Catholic parish that doesn't have bones to pick with the diocese and national province of which it is a constituent part.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I would have thought that an official organ of the North American Ordinariate would have avoided hyperbolic propaganda about dancing around altars and the meltdown of liberal Christianity in N. America. The more I read of Ordinariate postings, the more I am convinced the adherents show no more maturity than the founders of the Continuing Anglican movement 35 years ago.

But do continue the march into ecclesiastical obscurity, the invisible Continuing Anglican denominations having blazed the trail ahead for you.

Official organ? What on earth are you talking about? It's a private blog. [Confused]
Well, it's representing official pronouncements of the Ordinary and others in governance, is it not? And, like a blog previously posted by Comper's Child, it has its share of shrill exaggeration (putting it nicely; the comments on the blog post linked by Comper's Child were far worse, really contemptible). The point is, we've heard the same song before from so many who went with the "Continuing Church".
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Augustine the Aleut
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I've seen the blog before-- there are no useful official sources these days and one relies on gossip and private blogs such as this. I've seen worse. I cannot say that anyone in this fight has a lot of feel proud of in the past 5-10 years and Lietuvos is really so very lucky not to have been in a battleground parish. At least the Ordinariate is a new theme and we will see how it works out.
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Magic Wand
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Magic Wand, you are perhaps unaware that our shack is bringing new people in. Yes, fancy that. Some folks are actually attracted to an Anglo-Catholic parish that doesn't have bones to pick with the diocese and national province of which it is a constituent part.

Well, Gordon and his cronies are certainly telling everyone that new people are coming. But is it actually happening? No. Fewer each week, and money troubles a-plenty. But it's only the truth, right? Why should that get in the way of a good story?

And that's symptomatic of too much of ECUSA these days; they're like an ecclesiastical "Baghdad Bob," telling everyone as loudly as possible that everything is fine and victory is assured, as the tanks roll up behind him and his oppressive regime is defeated.

So, go on, tell Fr TT that the members of the Ordinariates are immature and that they will "march into ecclesiastical obscurity." No one believes you. After all, we know the facts, and not just the carefully censored propaganda.

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Enoch
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Who is Gordon please?

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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quote:
Originally posted by Magic Wand:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Magic Wand, you are perhaps unaware that our shack is bringing new people in. Yes, fancy that. Some folks are actually attracted to an Anglo-Catholic parish that doesn't have bones to pick with the diocese and national province of which it is a constituent part.

Well, Gordon and his cronies are certainly telling everyone that new people are coming. But is it actually happening? No. Fewer each week, and money troubles a-plenty. But it's only the truth, right? Why should that get in the way of a good story?

And that's symptomatic of too much of ECUSA these days; they're like an ecclesiastical "Baghdad Bob," telling everyone as loudly as possible that everything is fine and victory is assured, as the tanks roll up behind him and his oppressive regime is defeated.

So, go on, tell Fr TT that the members of the Ordinariates are immature and that they will "march into ecclesiastical obscurity." No one believes you. After all, we know the facts, and not just the carefully censored propaganda.

Look, I'm not going to conduct a discussion about parish affairs with you on a public forum, nor indeed anonymously via any internet means of whatever sort. What I can tell you is that you are ill-informed. Indeed, pledges are up and I'm in a reasonably good position to know the facts.
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CL
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# 16145

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Who is Gordon please?

Gordon Reid, Rector of St. Clement's, Philadelphia with a very questionable past in Scotland.
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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
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What would be questionable about his past? Or was that an idle slur, on a public forum where he probably can't respond, from a fellow Christian (perhaps you'd forgotten you were of the same faith)?

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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CL
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# 16145

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
What would be questionable about his past? Or was that an idle slur, on a public forum where he probably can't respond, from a fellow Christian (perhaps you'd forgotten you were of the same faith)?

His past is matter of public record so fill your boots.

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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria

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fletcher christian

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Sorry, but I'm still only seeing your veiled slur.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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Canon Reid's ecclesiastical career entails a CV of distinguished service to the Church of England in the several key posts in the Diocese of Europe, and representing Cantuar to the His Holiness the Pope. He was invited to become rector of St Clement's by some of the same people who are recently attacking him, an attack that stemmed from his daring to exercise his normal and canonical prerogatives as Rector, in defiance of a vestry and group of servers whom he had long indulged. Several of those folks were, BTW, Roman Catholics who have since left the parish; in at least one or two cases, they had occupied prominent positions in the parish whilst remaining active communicants of the Roman Catholic Church and by the same token not receiving Communion in the Episcopal Church.

As to a "public record" of Canon Reid's difficulties in the Scottish Episcopal Church many years ago, this includes reporting from a tabloid paper notorious for its libelous "reporting" and intermittent attention from the most hate-mongering website on the fringes of the Anglican world, an internet "news" outlet that seems to reflect a mindset not too far removed from that of Westboro Baptist Church.

[ 29. September 2012, 22:32: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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I haven't had time to look at this in detail (and am just back from a long day at Wembley) but just on a skim read before I turn in, may I remind you of Commandment 7?

quote:
7. Don't post illegal material

Posting libellous material, copyright violations or links to sites advocating illegal activities puts us in legal hot water, which makes us very unhappy.

When in doubt, leave it out. The Ship has no funds to get involved in any legal defence against allowing potentially libellous comments.

I'll have a closer look tomorrow when I'm less knackered; this "cease and desist" is a precautionary action.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host


--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Mr. Rob
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# 5823

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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:

" ... an attack that stemmed from his daring to exercise his normal and canonical prerogatives as Rector, in defiance of a vestry and group of servers whom he had long indulged. Several of those folks were, BTW, Roman Catholics who have since left the parish; in at least one or two cases, they had occupied prominent positions in the parish whilst remaining active communicants of the Roman Catholic Church and by the same token not receiving Communion in the Episcopal Church ... "

One would think that Canon Reid has now been at St. Clement's long enough to have identified those people and put a stop to their behaviors.

The bad old days have come to a close for Anglo-Catholic or any other types of special case parishes. If Reid has begun to "Episcopalianize" St. Clements, it is surely high time for it and way overdue.
*

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Mr. Rob
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# 5823

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I haven't had time to look at this in detail (and am just back from a long day at Wembley) but just on a skim read before I turn in, may I remind you of Commandment 7?

quote:
7. Don't post illegal material

Posting libellous material, copyright violations or links to sites advocating illegal activities puts us in legal hot water, which makes us very unhappy.

When in doubt, leave it out. The Ship has no funds to get involved in any legal defence against allowing potentially libellous comments.

I'll have a closer look tomorrow when I'm less knackered; this "cease and desist" is a precautionary action.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

Sorry, Barnabas62. I did not see this post at the time when mine went up, less than 30 minutes later. I had been called away from my computer while composing my reply to LsK, came back, finished and pressed the send button. Then I saw your above notice.
*

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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Mr Rob

No problem, easily done.

General update on the cease and desist. This morning it looks a safe, but marginal, call. So I've taken it to Admin for further guidance. In general we tend to be cautious about libel, to protect the site owner. I'm sure you understand.

Worth adding that there's also a guideline against washing "local congo" linen in public, unless there's a prior public interest expression in the media.

Watch this space.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host


[ 30. September 2012, 07:24: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Sir Pellinore
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# 12163

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This video on the Australian Ordinariate (Compass Episode 29 on the site) may be of some interest:
http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#

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Well...

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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It's only available for viewing to Australians, Sir P. [Frown]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Sir Pellinore
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# 12163

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Sorry about that, Lyda*Rose. [Hot and Hormonal]

Not much in the press about the program.

This is only marginally informative: http://www.catholica.com.au/forum/index.php?id=113526

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Well...

Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
k-mann
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# 8490

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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
The one break-away diocese in the TEC scene that I follow a bit from their website is the (so-called) Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth, which left TEC en masse, though with several important parishes remaining in TEC and a TEC diocese being reconstituted within boundaries that are co-terminous with its old territory. This is finally possibly reaching a watershed, as the Texas Supreme Court is scheduled to hear oral arguments in TEC's lawsuit against the break-away jurisdiction in October.

Isn’t this a bit, well, hypocritical considering how, exactly, anglicanism came about? What is the principled difference between a diocese breaking away from the Church of which it is a part (e.g. the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth breaking away from the TEC) and a Church (two archdioceses) breaking away from the Church of which it is a part (e.g. the Church of England breaking away from the Catholic Church)? Please tell.

I am myself part of the Church of Norway, and if a diocese in Norway were to break away, I don’t see how one could principially argue against it and still be keep one’s integrity. The Church of Norway broke away from the Catholic Church and took its assets. I don’t see any principled difference between this and what has been done in the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth.

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
In any event, what has become apparent from following developments is that several priests who were prominent in the break-away Episcopal diocese have subsequently defected to the Ordinariate, in which some of them are apparently already assuming significant positions of political power. By contrast, I know of only one group of parochial laypersons who have gone into the Ordinariate there, that being a portion of the congregation of the advanced A-C and historically rather ultramontane St Timothy's Fort Worth (where I was a member back in the 1970s and early 1980s).

So just like the Reformation, then? Only back across the Tiber?

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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich

Katolikken

Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
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# 3032

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k-mann, I suppose the big difference is that when the English Church 'broke away' from Rome it was in effect throwing itself - or being thrown - out of THE Ark of Salvation. The modern RCC may be kinder in their recognition of ecclesial groups and their terminology to fellow Christians. But Protestants weren't referred to as heretics for centuries, for nothing.

I'm sure there can't be many Anglicans who would consider ex-Anglicans in that light today (I hope!). So not like the Reformation at all, really. However, schism as a generality is, of course, not at all new as Apollos and Peter could have told us!

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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
k-mann
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# 8490

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
k-mann, I suppose the big difference is that when the English Church 'broke away' from Rome it was in effect throwing itself - or being thrown - out of THE Ark of Salvation. The modern RCC may be kinder in their recognition of ecclesial groups and their terminology to fellow Christians. But Protestants weren't referred to as heretics for centuries, for nothing.

I'm sure there can't be many Anglicans who would consider ex-Anglicans in that light today (I hope!). So not like the Reformation at all, really. However, schism as a generality is, of course, not at all new as Apollos and Peter could have told us!

I’m not entirely sure if you were actually answering my post, but my point is that being an Anglican (or, for instance, a state church Lutheran) and criticizing a diocese because it breaks out of the communion of which it is a part, with its assets, is hypocritical. Unless one actually advocates the turning back of all the old churches and cathedrals to the Catholic Church.

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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich

Katolikken

Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
SeraphimSarov
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# 4335

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quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
k-mann, I suppose the big difference is that when the English Church 'broke away' from Rome it was in effect throwing itself - or being thrown - out of THE Ark of Salvation. The modern RCC may be kinder in their recognition of ecclesial groups and their terminology to fellow Christians. But Protestants weren't referred to as heretics for centuries, for nothing.

I'm sure there can't be many Anglicans who would consider ex-Anglicans in that light today (I hope!). So not like the Reformation at all, really. However, schism as a generality is, of course, not at all new as Apollos and Peter could have told us!

al. Unless one actually advocates the turning back of all the old churches and cathedrals to the Catholic Church.
A wonderful idea indeed! Westminster Abbey is my vote to be returned first [Yipee]

(and bring the Benedictines back there while you are at it)

[ 04. October 2012, 03:02: Message edited by: SeraphimSarov ]

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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"

Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
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# 3032

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k-mann, yes I was replying to your post. And my point was that you were wrong, imo. The situations you were comparing, to prove your point about hypocrisy are not in essence comparable. I can see why you've used that example - there is a similarity in the cases undoubtedly. But the logistics of the Reformation in its time, over and against those of the Ordinariate in this time are just not close enough to compare them as you are doing. But that's just my opinion .

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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
k-mann
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# 8490

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
k-mann, yes I was replying to your post. And my point was that you were wrong, imo. The situations you were comparing, to prove your point about hypocrisy are not in essence comparable. I can see why you've used that example - there is a similarity in the cases undoubtedly. But the logistics of the Reformation in its time, over and against those of the Ordinariate in this time are just not close enough to compare them as you are doing. But that's just my opinion .

I’m not talking about the Ordinariate as such. I was addressing Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras’ post in which he he adressed the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth as “the (so-called) Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth.” In 2008, the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth voted to remove the diocese from the Episcopal Church (the TEC), to join a continuing anglican body. (See here.) This is something other than a few parishes going into the Ordinariate.

But anyway, my point (which was in answer to Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras and which didn’t have anything directly to do with the Ordinariate) is that adressing the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth as “the (so-called) Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth” would be the equivalent of the Catholic Church, during the english reformation, adressing the archdioceses of York and Canterbury as “the (so-called) archdioceses of York and Canterbury.” There is no principled difference between moving two archdioceses out of communion with the Catholic Church, and moving a diocese out of communion with the TEC. It is hypocritical of the TEC to react to that. If one cannot tolerate that, one shouldn’t be part of a Church which started that way. And the reason for the move was doctrinal reasons, as it was in the Reformation.

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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich

Katolikken

Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Rob
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# 5823

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quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
k-mann, yes I was replying to your post. And my point was that you were wrong, imo. The situations you were comparing, to prove your point about hypocrisy are not in essence comparable. I can see why you've used that example - there is a similarity in the cases undoubtedly. But the logistics of the Reformation in its time, over and against those of the Ordinariate in this time are just not close enough to compare them as you are doing. But that's just my opinion .

I’m not talking about the Ordinariate as such. I was addressing Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras’ post in which he he adressed the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth as “the (so-called) Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth.” In 2008, the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth voted to remove the diocese from the Episcopal Church (the TEC), to join a continuing anglican body. (See here.) This is something other than a few parishes going into the Ordinariate.

But anyway, my point (which was in answer to Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras and which didn’t have anything directly to do with the Ordinariate) is that adressing the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth as “the (so-called) Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth” would be the equivalent of the Catholic Church, during the english reformation, adressing the archdioceses of York and Canterbury as “the (so-called) archdioceses of York and Canterbury.” There is no principled difference between moving two archdioceses out of communion with the Catholic Church, and moving a diocese out of communion with the TEC. It is hypocritical of the TEC to react to that. If one cannot tolerate that, one shouldn’t be part of a Church which started that way. And the reason for the move was doctrinal reasons, as it was in the Reformation.

Wow! I think you are carrying your analysis of the term so called Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth, used by LsK, a bit too far, k-mann. That's because there are, in fact, two current entities using that exact same name. There must, of necessity, be some means employed to distinguish between the two.

Given the fact that the majority part of the original Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth voted to leave the Episcopal Church, then joined up with the Anglican Province of the Southern Cone, and now is a constituent part of the Anglican Church of North America, one might assume that it is well past time for a change of name, dropping the word Episcopal and perhaps using Anglican or whatever.

The remaining parishes not succeeding from The Episcopal Church were formed into the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth with a provisional, Episcopal bishop. It is that group which is the successor Episcopal body, part of The Episcopal Church and with a de facto right to use of the Episcopal name.

LsK I'm sure was trying to distinguish between these two groups with his use of "so-called" in reference to the break away group that insists on keeping the Episcopal name while not being part of The Episcopal Church at all. I know it's confusing, but don't blame LsK for that.

See the two entiries linked below.

Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth I (TEC)

Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth II (ACNA)

* [Yipee]

Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Rob
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# 5823

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quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:

A wonderful idea indeed! Westminster Abbey is my vote to be returned first [Yipee]

(and bring the Benedictines back there while you are at it)

Too late. Can't be done anymore. On 29 September, 1850, by the Bull Universalis Ecclesiae, Pope Pius IX re-established the Catholic hierarchy in England, which had become extinct with the death of the last Marian bishop in the reign of Elizabeth.

With the publication of this bull, all claims to the ancient English sees, cathedrals, endowments and properties ceased. An entirely new English Roman Catholic hierarchy was established with its own new dioceses, cathedrals and the rest. It can honestly be said that from that point, any de jure return of ancient properties and sites formerly claimed by the Roman church was nothing more than a dream.
*

Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
CL
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# 16145

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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:

A wonderful idea indeed! Westminster Abbey is my vote to be returned first [Yipee]

(and bring the Benedictines back there while you are at it)

Too late. Can't be done anymore. On 29 September, 1850, by the Bull Universalis Ecclesiae, Pope Pius IX re-established the Catholic hierarchy in England, which had become extinct with the death of the last Marian bishop in the reign of Elizabeth.

With the publication of this bull, all claims to the ancient English sees, cathedrals, endowments and properties ceased. An entirely new English Roman Catholic hierarchy was established with its own new dioceses, cathedrals and the rest. It can honestly be said that from that point, any de jure return of ancient properties and sites formerly claimed by the Roman church was nothing more than a dream.
*

You do know that the Catholic Church was/is prevented by law (Ecclesiastical Titles Act of 1851) from having dioceses with the same name as CofE dioceses?
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Spike

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# 36

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What about Southwark or Liverpool?

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Triple Tiara

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# 9556

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The Catholic Church is prevented from erecting dioceses with the same name as extant CofE ones. Nothing prevents the CofE from using ones employed by the Catholic Church. Southwark, Liverpool, Birmingham, Portsmouth were all Catholic dioceses before the CofE ones were created.

The recent CofE forays into Catholic names for dioceses include adding Leeds to Ripon and Nottingham to Southwell.

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472

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Did not the Bull precede the Act? I am under the apprehension that the Bull was a cause of the Act (popish aggression and all that).

I have always found it interesting that, as RC hierarchies were re-established in Reformation countries, very few erections of dioceses used the names and identities of their pre-Reformation counterparts. Some of them (e.g. Holar, Skalholt, and Lund) are now titular sees.

I think that the only country where the RCs claim continuity against a Reformation church rival is Ireland, causing the untold expenditure of ink and paper as newspapers must distinguish between the Church of Ireland Archbishop of Armagh and the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Armagh, often enough even when the context makes it painfully obvious. An Irish canonist friend told me that the chaos of the early Elizabethan period often left cathedral chapters divided between popish and protestant factions, and there were cases where arguments could be made that one or the other could legitimately claim to consider themselves the heirs of the founding saints of a particular see.

Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged



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