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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: What exactly does atheism have to offer?
Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Look, you may not care much whether God actually exists or not, but it matters to me, OK?

But we've no way of telling for sure.
Quite. The existence or non-existence of God is not something that can be proven.

Contrary to popular opinion amongst militant atheists, science can be used as evidence for both god botherers and atheists.

And well said on the rest of it long ranger.

A big part of growing up is living with unresolved tensions Karl.

Make a decision and live with it.

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Look, you may not care much whether God actually exists or not, but it matters to me, OK?

But we've no way of telling for sure.
Quite. The existence or non-existence of God is not something that can be proven.

Contrary to popular opinion amongst militant atheists, science can be used as evidence for both god botherers and atheists.

And well said on the rest of it long ranger.

A big part of growing up is living with unresolved tensions Karl.

Make a decision and live with it.

I can decide to act as if God exists. I cannot decide that he does. And I cannot turn off the rather obvious point that I could be wrong.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I can decide to act as if God exists. I cannot decide that he does. And I cannot turn off the rather obvious point that I could be wrong.

That's true, but what are you gunna do? In your situation the only choices are to decide a) he exists b) he might not exist but I'll live as if he does c) he doesn't exist so live as an atheist or d) leave it unresolved.

Personally I'd find d) pretty difficult to live with.

--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
However, IMO all atheism really offers is the certainty of eternal condemnation for everyone, good or bad

How do you figure?
Condemned as in life is short and we're all doomed to die - forever. "Oh," the atheist says, "we live on in the memories of our children and the people we influece." But a few years after you've gone they may be down the pub talking about what a twit you were. But even then, after one or two generations you will be completely forgotten.

Even in the long run, the world will end one day, and nothing we ever did will really matter, and no-one will live on in any sense of the word, no matter how much good they tried to do in their time.

We're doomed I say, DOOMED!

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I can decide to act as if God exists. I cannot decide that he does. And I cannot turn off the rather obvious point that I could be wrong.

That's true, but what are you gunna do? In your situation the only choices are to decide a) he exists b) he might not exist but I'll live as if he does c) he doesn't exist so live as an atheist or d) leave it unresolved.

Personally I'd find d) pretty difficult to live with.

Well, it's b) and d) isn't it? I can live as if God exists but it's still an unresolved question.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Condemned as in life is short and we're all doomed to die - forever. "Oh," the atheist says, "we live on in the memories of our children and the people we influece." But a few years after you've gone they may be down the pub talking about what a twit you were. But even then, after one or two generations you will be completely forgotten.

Even in the long run, the world will end one day, and nothing we ever did will really matter, and no-one will live on in any sense of the word, no matter how much good they tried to do in their time.

We're doomed I say, DOOMED!

I think you're mistaking 'forgotten' for 'condemned'. 99% of people are unimportant and are forgotten when they die. So what?

--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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LeRoc

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quote:
Mark Betts: But even then, after one or two generations you will be completely forgotten.
I personally know a number of atheists who find this perspective quite attractive.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Condemned as in life is short and we're all doomed to die - forever.

Non-existence isn't half as terrifying a thought as eternal damnation.

quote:
Even in the long run, the world will end one day, and nothing we ever did will really matter, and no-one will live on in any sense of the word, no matter how much good they tried to do in their time.
OK, so none of it will matter in millions of years time. It still matters now. Live for today, and let the future worry about itself.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Mark Betts: But even then, after one or two generations you will be completely forgotten.
I personally know a number of atheists who find this perspective quite attractive.
Indeed. It means that even if you screw your life up completely, it won't matter in the long run. Whereas with most religions, if you screw up completely in this life you get to pay for it throughout eternity.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong
The existence or non-existence of God is not something that can be proven.
...
A big part of growing up is living with unresolved tensions Karl.

And yet on the Dawkins' theistic probability scale, where "1" is absolute certainty of God's existence...

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong
I'm a 1

I assume then that you were just taking the piss on this earlier thread?

Along with your "advice" to me:

quote:
Fuck the nervous bullshit!

STAND TALL

I'm afraid I'm one of those irritating people who compares a poster's views over different threads!

[ 02. October 2012, 11:00: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]

--------------------
You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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goperryrevs
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'd say the absence of a Cosmic Judge who will send you to eternal damnation for not doing (or even believing) the right things is a definite plus point.

An alternative solution to that (i.e. other than atheism) is just having a less fucked up view of God.
Less fucked up than the traditional, biblical view?
As you appear to have understood it? Heck yes.

--------------------
"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch

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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Condemned as in life is short and we're all doomed to die - forever. "Oh," the atheist says, "we live on in the memories of our children and the people we influece." But a few years after you've gone they may be down the pub talking about what a twit you were. But even then, after one or two generations you will be completely forgotten.

Even in the long run, the world will end one day, and nothing we ever did will really matter, and no-one will live on in any sense of the word, no matter how much good they tried to do in their time.

We're doomed I say, DOOMED!

I've heard this kind of argument before and it's never made any sense to me. You seem to be confusing cosmological/eternal significance with here and now significance.

Does what I do matter when compared with a possible infinite universe and eons of time. Of course not. Does what I do matter in my day to day life? Of course it does. It's like arguing that theres no point in eating today because I'll just be hungry again tomorrow.

Another example. If I see someone suffering and it's in my power to help them. Is their suffering significant when compared to an eternity of time? Of course not. Is their suffering significant to them at that moment? Of course it is.

In short I don't think you can argue that "dying forever" = there is no point to anything.

--------------------
C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
In short I don't think you can argue that "dying forever" = there is no point to anything.

I think I can argue that "dying forever" = there is ultimately no point to anything.

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Look, you may not care much whether God actually exists or not, but it matters to me, OK?

But we've no way of telling for sure.
Quite. The existence or non-existence of God is not something that can be proven.

Contrary to popular opinion amongst militant atheists, science can be used as evidence for both god botherers and atheists.

And well said on the rest of it long ranger.

A big part of growing up is living with unresolved tensions Karl.

Make a decision and live with it.

I can decide to act as if God exists. I cannot decide that he does. And I cannot turn off the rather obvious point that I could be wrong.
You know what, scrap my last statement. It's totally wrong.

Your trouble is you want knowledge.

The only way you're going to get knowledge is if you have faith and take that leap.

Faith is more than intellectual propositions. It is trust that the God revealed in Jesus is true.

If you think the God revealed in Jesus is worthy of your trust - take a leap.

Jump into the deep end of faith.

Pray. Talk to God. Attend services regularly. Set up self discipline to pray and read the scriptures regularly. Volunteer. Hang out with God people.

Stick with it.

The Christian story goes that you will be led by the Spirit to knowledge of God. Faith begins with the Spirit

If you have no noticeable proof after some time, say fuck it. [Big Grin]

But hey, it's worth a shot. [Biased]

[ 02. October 2012, 12:19: Message edited by: Evensong ]

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

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Mark Betts

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quote:
From Queen - Bohemian Rhapsody:
Nothing really matters,
Anyone can see,
Nothing really matters, nothing really matters to me,

('scuse double post)

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Look, you may not care much whether God actually exists or not, but it matters to me, OK?

But we've no way of telling for sure.
Quite. The existence or non-existence of God is not something that can be proven.

Contrary to popular opinion amongst militant atheists, science can be used as evidence for both god botherers and atheists.

And well said on the rest of it long ranger.

A big part of growing up is living with unresolved tensions Karl.

Make a decision and live with it.

I can decide to act as if God exists. I cannot decide that he does. And I cannot turn off the rather obvious point that I could be wrong.
You know what, scrap my last statement. It's totally wrong.

Your trouble is you want knowledge.

The only way you're going to get knowledge is if you have faith and take that leap.

Faith is more than intellectual propositions. It is trust that the God revealed in Jesus is true.

If you think the God revealed in Jesus is worthy of your trust - take a leap.

Jump into the deep end of faith.

Pray. Talk to God. Attend services regularly. Set up self discipline to pray and read the scriptures regularly. Volunteer. Hang out with God people.

Stick with it.

The Christian story goes that you will be led by the Spirit to knowledge of God. Faith begins with the Spirit

If you have no noticeable proof after some time, say fuck it. [Big Grin]

But hey, it's worth a shot. [Biased]

Lots of people have done exactly that with divergent results. Therefore I conclude that the experiment does not tell me anything.

Why is wanting knowledge a "problem"? Isn't wanting to know things the very opposite of apathy, which is meant to be a bad thing?

I took the "leap" you refer to many, many years ago. I'm still hacking at it. And I still do not have knowledge. It just doesn't seem to work that way. So by the formula you've just presented, I should just say "fuck it, there is no God". And yet I'm not convinced by that conclusion either.

[ 02. October 2012, 12:25: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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[missed edit window]

Why do you think I've chosen the sig. I have?

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong
The existence or non-existence of God is not something that can be proven.
...
A big part of growing up is living with unresolved tensions Karl.

And yet on the Dawkins' theistic probability scale, where "1" is absolute certainty of God's existence...

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong
I'm a 1

I assume then that you were just taking the piss on this earlier thread?

Along with your "advice" to me:

quote:
Fuck the nervous bullshit!

STAND TALL

I'm afraid I'm one of those irritating people who compares a poster's views over different threads!

You're getting your paradigm's mixed up. [Biased]

I can't prove God exists. But I know God exists.

Personally, my knowledge comes through experience - not intellectual propositions that can be verified by "evidence".

That kind of "evidence" is beyond the realm of science.

Might not always be that way. Perhaps they'll prove God one day.

Then I'll be the first to stand there saying "Neeener, neeeener. I told you so". [Big Grin]

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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The problem is that you also put that experience beyond the grasp of anyone to whom it might be useful, like me, by not telling me about it but sending me off to hopefully have my own experience.

I want to know what yours was, and why it means you now know God exists. Doesn't sound much like a crime.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I think I can argue that "dying forever" = there is ultimately no point to anything.

...Which means that, even if you can't quite make a '1' on the Dawkins Theistic Probability Scale, you might as well try and follow Christ anyway, as best you can, because ultimately you have nothing to loose! [Smile]

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
]...Which means that, even if you can't quite make a '1' on the Dawkins Theistic Probability Scale, you might as well try and follow Christ anyway, as best you can, because ultimately you have nothing to loose! [Smile]

Except your self respect.

--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Except your self respect.

Which is ultimately worthless anyway! [Angel]

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I think I can argue that "dying forever" = there is ultimately no point to anything.

...Which means that, even if you can't quite make a '1' on the Dawkins Theistic Probability Scale, you might as well try and follow Christ anyway, as best you can, because ultimately you have nothing to loose! [Smile]
Am I really going to have to explain the refutation of Pascal's wager? Hasn't everyone heard it by now? Come on Mr Betts you can do better than that.

--------------------
C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts
...you might as well try and follow Christ anyway, as best you can, because ultimately you have nothing to lose!

I don't agree with this reasoning, which is really Pascal's Wager (as has just been pointed out). The Wager is an embarrassment, and, as a Christian, I thoroughly reject it.

It's based on the assumption that Christianity and atheism are the only conceivable options. But what if Islam is true? Wouldn't you then be an infidel if you turned to Christ?

The atheist is absolutely right when he says that this Pascal's Wager approach is not an honourable option. Furthermore, it implies a very cheap view of God, as if he is playing a cruel game with people's lives.

(Oh and by the way, I've taken the liberty of correcting your original post - bad etiquette or not - because that wretched ubiquitous misspelling makes me want to scream!!!)

[ 02. October 2012, 12:59: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]

--------------------
You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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George Spigot

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Thank you EtymologicalEvangelical you explained it better than I could.

Mark do you believe, as Dr William Lane Craig argues, that nothing temporary has significance?

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I don't agree with this reasoning, which is really Pascal's Wager (as has just been pointed out). The Wager is an embarrassment, and, as a Christian, I thoroughly reject it.

It's based on the assumption that Christianity and atheism are the only conceivable options. But what if Islam is true? Wouldn't you then be an infidel if you turned to Christ?

The atheist is absolutely right when he says that this Pascal's Wager approach is not an honourable option. Furthermore, it implies a very cheap view of God, as if he is playing a cruel game with people's lives.

(Oh and by the way, I've taken the liberty of correcting your original post - bad etiquette or not - because that wretched ubiquitous misspelling makes me want to scream!!!)

You were right about my spelling - how did I miss that?

Anyway, concerning Pascal's wager, supposing you did choose Islam only to find out at the last that Christianity is the true faith? I still reckon you'd stand a better chance on Judgement Day than someone who rejected God (and Jesus) altogether. For argument's sake I would say the same applied if the situation was reversed and Islam turned out to be the true way.

It's easy to say that an old analogy has been rufuted just because some modern intellectual says it has.

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Thank you EtymologicalEvangelical you explained it better than I could.

Mark do you believe, as Dr William Lane Craig argues, that nothing temporary has significance?

I don't think I'd put my beliefs like that, I don't even understand exactly what he means.

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Thank you EtymologicalEvangelical you explained it better than I could.

Mark do you believe, as Dr William Lane Craig argues, that nothing temporary has significance?

I don't think I'd put my beliefs like that, I don't even understand exactly what he means.
You said
quote:
the world will end one day, and nothing we ever did will really matter.
That sounds like you are saying that nothing temporary has significance.

--------------------
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts
Anyway, concerning Pascal's wager, supposing you did choose Islam only to find out at the last that Christianity is the true faith? I still reckon you'd stand a better chance on Judgement Day than someone who rejected God (and Jesus) altogether. For argument's sake I would say the same applied if the situation was reversed and Islam turned out to be the true way.

You seem to be suggesting that belief in God (no matter what kind of God) is soteriologically more efficacious than non-belief in any God. I find that very hard to understand.

Consider the following two positions:

1. Hyper-Calvinistic predestination: God has created some people under the deliberate decree that they should never be saved, and there is absolutely nothing they can do to avoid going to a place of eternal torture.

2. Atheism: this life on earth is all there is, and when we die that's the end of all consciousness. There is no joy for anyone after this life, but also no pain. Just nothing.

Now which position do you think is further away from the God of love, mercy, justice and reason?

I would emphatically say #1, which is actually devil worship. How can anyone possibly worship a being who deliberately creates some people for absolutely no other reason than to torture them mercilessly for ever? Would it not be kinder for there to be oblivion for everyone than this kind of appalling scenario for anyone?

--------------------
You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
You said
quote:
the world will end one day, and nothing we ever did will really matter.
That sounds like you are saying that nothing temporary has significance.
Ah, then you've misunderstood where I was coming from. I was musing on how things might seem to me if I were an atheist. But in reality I'm not.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:

It's easy to say that an old analogy has been rufuted just because some modern intellectual says it has.

Mark, c'mon, keep up this isn't difficult: according to you, I must either choose (your understanding of) the Christian religion and atheism otherwise I risk eternal damnation - and might be better of risking it all being wrong for eternal paradise.

But maybe some other Christianity is right, maybe Islam is right or Sikhism or any other faith. It isn't a binary choice between your understanding and atheism.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts
Anyway, concerning Pascal's wager, supposing you did choose Islam only to find out at the last that Christianity is the true faith? I still reckon you'd stand a better chance on Judgement Day than someone who rejected God (and Jesus) altogether. For argument's sake I would say the same applied if the situation was reversed and Islam turned out to be the true way.

You seem to be suggesting that belief in God (no matter what kind of God) is soteriologically more efficacious than non-belief in any God. I find that very hard to understand.

Consider the following two positions:

1. Hyper-Calvinistic predestination: God has created some people under the deliberate decree that they should never be saved, and there is absolutely nothing they can do to avoid going to a place of eternal torture.

2. Atheism: this life on earth is all there is, and when we die that's the end of all consciousness. There is no joy for anyone after this life, but also no pain. Just nothing.

Now which position do you think is further away from the God of love, mercy, justice and reason?

I would emphatically say #1, which is actually devil worship. How can anyone possibly worship a being who deliberately creates some people for absolutely no other reason than to torture them mercilessly for ever? Would it not be kinder for there to be oblivion for everyone than this kind of appalling scenario for anyone?

I share your distaste for hyper-Calvinism. And the problem for Pascals Wager now, is having said that hC's even further from God as you understand him than atheism is, you are left with three possible scenarios:

1. Neither group are saved.
2. Hyper-Calvinists are not saved, and atheists are.
3. Both groups are saved.

Depending on your "how far you have to be from getting it right" line.

So perhaps PW is a load of old bollocks and it's not about how right you got it. This actually makes quite a lot of sense, given the argument I advance [BLOGPIMPALERT]here [/BLOGPIMPALERT]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
You seem to be suggesting that belief in God (no matter what kind of God) is soteriologically more efficacious than non-belief in any God. I find that very hard to understand.

Consider the following two positions:

1. Hyper-Calvinistic predestination: God has created some people under the deliberate decree that they should never be saved, and there is absolutely nothing they can do to avoid going to a place of eternal torture.

I don't mean to be pedantic, but this is known as Reprobation.

quote:
2. Atheism: this life on earth is all there is, and when we die that's the end of all consciousness. There is no joy for anyone after this life, but also no pain. Just nothing.

Now which position do you think is further away from the God of love, mercy, justice and reason?

I would emphatically say #1, which is actually devil worship. How can anyone possibly worship a being who deliberately creates some people for absolutely no other reason than to torture them mercilessly for ever? Would it not be kinder for there to be oblivion for everyone than this kind of appalling scenario for anyone?

I really don't know. I'm certainly not a Calvinist myself, but there are different shades of Hyper-Calvinism - you can't tar them all with one brush and say that they all believe such-and-such. Find me someone who will even describe themselves as a Hyper-Calvinist.

In the end, at the Final Judgement, only God can decide.

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider
So perhaps PW is a load of old bollocks...

There is no 'perhaps' about it.

--------------------
You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

I took the "leap" you refer to many, many years ago. I'm still hacking at it. And I still do not have knowledge. It just doesn't seem to work that way. So by the formula you've just presented, I should just say "fuck it, there is no God". And yet I'm not convinced by that conclusion either.

Then I apologise for my presumption and take my hat off to you.

Sounds to me like God has called you and marked you as his own.

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The problem is that you also put that experience beyond the grasp of anyone to whom it might be useful, like me, by not telling me about it but sending me off to hopefully have my own experience.

I want to know what yours was, and why it means you now know God exists. Doesn't sound much like a crime.

You make a good point.

I don't know what your denomination is but in my circles ( and on this Ship ) we do not talk about our "personal experiences of God". For some reason it seems to be bad manners. Occasionally it happens and when it does its awesome. I love it. I'm an Anglican but I suspect the whole "witness" or "testimony" thing is something we Anglicans could learn from the more charismatic or pentecostal of our Christian brethren.

My experience of God is manifold and would take too long to describe in detail here.

But I guess my defining one was a mystical vision of the risen Christ.

He came to me, very Damascus road like.

It was quite out of the blue. I was a cultural Muslim. I had never entered a church or picked up a bible.

So Dawkins belief that personal experience of God is based on hallucination or wishful thinking really doesn't apply here. It was totally unexpected. I knew nothing of Christ.

The experience was extraordinary. He was HUGE. I could only see the hem of his robe and it extended beyond my vision.

But I knew it was him. The words "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus" came spontaneously from my mouth.

The experience was one of unutterable joy and complete unconditional love.

My darkness was enveloped by his lightness.

Paul Tillich describes Grace as "you are accepted". This was the feeling. I was completely accepted. Just the way I was. Darkness and all.

The definitive feeling of the whole experience was a Julian of Norwich kind of thing. All will be well. All manner of things will be well.

But it didn't end there.

I was so overwhelmed that I went to my local church to be baptized.

They said no because I didn't believe my Muslim parents were going to hell.

So I left it.

Then three or four years later I came across some books of fiction in my local library that were written by an Anglican and neatly coincided with my experiences of God.

So I thought "Okay God, I'll try again".

I did. I was baptized. I've been a faithful Anglican since.

[ 02. October 2012, 14:15: Message edited by: Evensong ]

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:


Sounds to me like God has called you and marked you as his own.

Sounds to me like you think God has called you to be someone who tells other people that God has marked them even when said other person sincerely doubts that is true.

Around here they call that insensitive.

--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts
...you can't tar them all with one brush...

And where did I say that I was?? Did you not notice how I specified exactly what belief I was talking about?

quote:
In the end, at the Final Judgement, only God can decide.
Exactly. A judgment which destroys the validity of Pascal's Wager.

--------------------
You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Mark, c'mon, keep up this isn't difficult: according to you, I must either choose (your understanding of) the Christian religion and atheism otherwise I risk eternal damnation - and might be better of risking it all being wrong for eternal paradise.

I said that???

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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goperryrevs
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[TANGENT]

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
In the end, at the Final Judgement, only God can decide.

IMVHO that's one of the biggest misconceptions about judgement day. God has already decided. He has already chosen each of us.

Judgement day is about our decisions, not God's.

[/TANGENT]

--------------------
"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts
I don't mean to be pedantic, but this is known as Reprobation.

You don't say!!!

And your point is...?

--------------------
You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:


Sounds to me like God has called you and marked you as his own.

Sounds to me like you think God has called you to be someone who tells other people that God has marked them even when said other person sincerely doubts that is true.

Around here they call that insensitive.

No, no, I can cope with this; it's a reasonable conclusion as to why despite anything either in isolation or accumulation I can really point to and say "this, therefore God", I'm not willing to drop the thing and embrace functionally atheistic agnosticism.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Squibs
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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Thank you EtymologicalEvangelical you explained it better than I could.

Mark do you believe, as Dr William Lane Craig argues, that nothing temporary has significance?

Craig doesn't argue that nothing temporary has significance. That would be absurd. But perhaps this was just poor phrasing on your part.

I gather Craig's point is that without God concepts like beauty, justice, love, morality, purpose and meaning and so on are at root illusions fobbed off on us by evolution.

Listening to Bach, watching sunsets, campaigning for social justice and the love you feel for your children might be significant to you or those around you, but that is it. There is no ultimate/ universal/ transcendent/ whatever significance to these actions and emotions. Somebody who despises all that you hold dear and seeks to wipe them from the face of the planet leads an equally significant life.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Exactly. A judgment which destroys the validity of Pascal's Wager.

Maybe it would help if you considered what Pascal's Wager actually is. There is nothing to "prove" or "disprove". It's not even specifically about christianity, even less so about protestant evangelical christianity.

It is just a thought to be considered regarding the existence of God, nothing more.

quote:
from Wiki:
It posits that there's more to be gained from wagering on the existence of God than from atheism, and that a rational person should live as though God exists, even though the truth of the matter cannot actually be known.

Of course determined Atheists don't like it - would you expect them to?

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts
I don't mean to be pedantic, but this is known as Reprobation.

You don't say!!!

And your point is...?

You were very quick to point out my spelling inaccuracy.

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
[TANGENT]

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
In the end, at the Final Judgement, only God can decide.

IMVHO that's one of the biggest misconceptions about judgement day. God has already decided. He has already chosen each of us.

Judgement day is about our decisions, not God's.

[/TANGENT]

How does that work goperryrevs?

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts
quote:
from Wiki:
It posits that there's more to be gained from wagering on the existence of God than from atheism, and that a rational person should live as though God exists, even though the truth of the matter cannot actually be known.

Of course determined Atheists don't like it - would you expect them to?
I'm afraid you're clutching at straws here. There is nothing to be gained from believing in a kind of God, whose character is no different from that of the devil. I would rather believe in no God, than believe in (as in: "put my trust in") a devil.

I would have thought that the "freedom" of atheism is far preferable to the sort of horrific bondage associated with certain religious cults (and even certain so called churches).

There should never be any "wagering" about it. Croesos was right to say that we should be concerned about truth for its own sake. Of course, I don't agree with his version of the truth...

quote:
You were very quick to point out my spelling inaccuracy.
[Confused]

--------------------
You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Maybe it would help if you considered what Pascal's Wager actually is. There is nothing to "prove" or "disprove". It's not even specifically about christianity, even less so about protestant evangelical christianity.

Do you have a reference for that? I highly doubt what you say is true - he wrote it in a Christian context with the cost/benefit being hell/heaven. Indeed for almost any other understanding of deity it makes little or no sense (for example gaining Paradise for a Muslim is not simply a case of believing in Allah).

--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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goperryrevs
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
How does that work goperryrevs?

I've started a new thread so as not to disrupt this one.

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SusanDoris

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I started this yesterday, but have since read through the rest of the thread - an excellent way to spend time. [Smile]
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
I have yet to meet a true atheist.

I've been reading through this very interesting topic and was going to read to the end before responding, but I can't let that pass! [Smile] The only thing common to all atheists is a lack of belief in the Christian God and all others too so if that applies to a person, then s/he is an atheist.
quote:
Almost every one of them acts in a way consistent with the acknowledgement of some sort of limited aspect of God - Justice, Truth, Knowledge, Enlightenment, Fairness, Kindness.
Yes, religions have been such an integral part of world history that it would be just about impossible not to acknowledge the various god beliefs. Omit god from that list however, and atheists are, as all humans are, the results of an evolutionary, entirely natural process and if you met two people with the characteristics you mention, you would only know if one was a believer if s/he told you so. (I think I said this elsewhere recently, so apologies for repetition.) What atheism has to offer here is a confidence that, as the BHA say, one can live a full and happy life without belief in God/god/s.
quote:
Even the militant Dawkins atheists that ridicule and try to convert the religious to atheism ...
I read something the other day pointing out that it is the religious who add adjectives such as 'militant' and 'new' to the noun 'atheists' not the atheists themselves.
Battles are not fought in the name of atheism so that must also count as a good thing on offer from atheism!
quote:
...are doing so in the pursuit of some sense of scientific or human advancement away from superstition.
I cannot think of a downside to an understanding that superstitions resulting from human minds looking for reasons for natural events are acknowledged for what they are. With that knowledge comes the confidence to think of them as part of the world of humour. This is very much more prevalent nowadays too, as far as I can see.
quote:
And, boy, do they hate it when you point out that they're just as evangelical as a Baptist on a street corner.
Strongly disagree with this, as atheists, however firmly they present their views, are aiming for greater secularisation, not conversion. I think they perhaps see it as an interpretation by believers of emotions which the atheist does not attribute to a God-source!

For myself, I have always known that bible stories were ways to help teach children, and adults, learn about good, right and not-so-good, wrong behaviour. In my twenties I'd worked out that the God/force/power I believed in did nothing, but many ears later, when the space in my head which housed God had shrunk to such a small, insignificant point that I simply mentally erased it, I felt that I was like a complete Susan-shaped jigsaw which had had one microscopic piece missing; and when this dropped into place, all the lines defining the jigsaw shapes disappeared. The feeling of wholeness had been there for some time I realised, but it was exactly right.
I am very glad indeed that I realised this a pretty long time ago so that I have had years to enjoy being an atheist! I have no illusions about after-life - well, I didn't have many of those anyway - but still love the discussions and debates on the subject.
I've learnt all sorts of things like 'why is your faith different from guesswork?', terms such as 'confirmation bias', 'the only thing requiring faith without evidence is God', name one thing a believer can do that an atheist can't', etc. I could never go back to believing in the supernatural, except of course, if one solid piece of evidence came along, in which case all religions would turn into one world belief.

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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Squibs
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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider
So perhaps PW is a load of old bollocks...

There is no 'perhaps' about it.
I was under the impression that the Wager is really only a small section in a body of work compiled after his death. The name Pensées suggests that this was not a fully fleshed out argument.

Would Pascal have wanted to be remembered for this particular apologetic?

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