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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: What exactly does atheism have to offer?
Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Maybe it would help if you considered what Pascal's Wager actually is. There is nothing to "prove" or "disprove". It's not even specifically about christianity, even less so about protestant evangelical christianity.

Do you have a reference for that? I highly doubt what you say is true - he wrote it in a Christian context with the cost/benefit being hell/heaven. Indeed for almost any other understanding of deity it makes little or no sense (for example gaining Paradise for a Muslim is not simply a case of believing in Allah).
I'm less familiar with Pascal's Wager than you are, long ranger - you could start by looking up the Wiki article about it.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I'm less familiar with Pascal's Wager than you are, long ranger - you could start by looking up the Wiki article about it.

WTF? You're less familiar than I am with something you say says something when a quick search suggests that my recollection is nearer the truth than your claim [Confused] Why did you make that claim if you didn't know it to be true?

Do you moderate anything that comes out of your mouth or should we just consider it unthinking verbal diarrhea?

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Do you moderate anything that comes out of your mouth or should we just consider it unthinking verbal diarrhea?

Hostly Hat ON
Long Ranger, you aren't so new here that you don't know better than this. You MAY NOT attack the person in Purgatory, only the argument. Grow up.

--Tom Clune, Purgatory Host
Hostly Hat OFF

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This space left blank intentionally.

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the long ranger
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I retract my previous comment and suspect Mark Betts simply made a grammatical error that made his comment say the opposite of what he intended to say.

Sorry Mark, you do make sense most of the time.

But your citing of wikipedia is odd given it does not at all support your assertion that it is about belief in God, any God. Can't you see that?

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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the long ranger
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I'm sorry tclune, I have no excuse. Sorry everyone else, I got a bit carried away with Mark Bett's style of debate and a grammatical error.

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
I retract my previous comment and suspect Mark Betts simply made a grammatical error that made his comment say the opposite of what he intended to say.

Sorry Mark, you do make sense most of the time.

But your citing of wikipedia is odd given it does not at all support your assertion that it is about belief in God, any God. Can't you see that?

Good - I'm glad you looked it up. I've heard the argument before, but didn't even know it was Pascal's. You should at least see from the article that the Wager deals only with God - no mention of Jesus nor the Holy Trinity.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Good - I'm glad you looked it up. I've heard the argument before, but didn't even know it was Pascal's. You should at least see from the article that the Wager deals only with God - no mention of Jesus nor the Holy Trinity.

I'm sorry did I say that it did? The wager is about heaven/hell in a Christian context.

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Squibs
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Could you guys start another thread about the Wager?
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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Battles are not fought in the name of atheism so that must also count as a good thing on offer from atheism!

Have you never heard of Communism? Or Mao Tse-tung SusanDoris?

Your statement is both wrong and an insult to the many millions who were slain, imprisoned, or martyred - all in the name of atheism. [Mad]

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'd say the absence of a Cosmic Judge who will send you to eternal damnation for not doing (or even believing) the right things is a definite plus point.

An alternative solution to that (i.e. other than atheism) is just having a less fucked up view of God.
Less fucked up than the traditional, biblical view?
As you appear to have understood it? Heck yes.
New thread started for this tangent.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Battles are not fought in the name of atheism so that must also count as a good thing on offer from atheism!

Have you never heard of Communism? Or Mao Tse-tung SusanDoris?

Your statement is both wrong and an insult to the many millions who were slain, imprisoned, or martyred - all in the name of atheism. [Mad]

No. In the name of a political movement of which atheism is a part. NOT the same thing. All it proves is humans do not need a god to be bastards.
Soviet communism's manipulations with the Orthodox are evidence pragmatism is the true theological viewpoint of politics.

quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
I gather Craig's point is that without God concepts like beauty, justice, love, morality, purpose and meaning and so on are at root illusions fobbed off on us by evolution.

And for Christian's, they are at root illusions fobbed on us by God?

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Organ Builder
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Battles are not fought in the name of atheism so that must also count as a good thing on offer from atheism!

Have you never heard of Communism? Or Mao Tse-tung SusanDoris?

Your statement is both wrong and an insult to the many millions who were slain, imprisoned, or martyred - all in the name of atheism. [Mad]

To be honest, I think this is a dead end. It could be argued, as SusanDoris probably would, that while those regimes were atheistic, political power had more to do with the imprisonments and martyrdoms than atheism qua atheism. Since this is the way we usually prefer to look at our own Christian baggage*, it would probably make more sense for both sides to just back off a bit and recognize that this is a dead end. Everyone's house has just a little too much glass in it.

It certainly isn't going to help Christians and Atheists understand each other if we keep dragging up the worst excesses of each camp. The fact remains (I trust...) that neither your friendly neighborhood Atheist nor your friendly neighborhood Christian in a developed country are likely to be doing much rapine or pillage in the name of Christianity or Atheism these days.

*Torquemada, anyone? The Crusades? The Albigensians? The Lutheran Sack of Rome? I could go on...but I'm sure I don't need to.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Mark Betts

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Well, everyone's quick enough to blame religion for wars and terrorism aren't they? SusanDorris was clearly implying it in her statement. So why does Atheism get off the hook so easily?

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the long ranger
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For once, I agree with Mark. It is bloody convenient for Atheists to disown Atheist regimes when it is convenient and then complain that religion is the cause of much conflict.

Own it and live with it - religion causes conflict and war and death and ethnic cleansing in exactly the same way as atheism, and vice versa.

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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Battles are not fought in the name of atheism so that must also count as a good thing on offer from atheism!

Have you never heard of Communism? Or Mao Tse-tung SusanDoris?

Your statement is both wrong and an insult to the many millions who were slain, imprisoned, or martyred - all in the name of atheism. [Mad]

[Roll Eyes]

[ 02. October 2012, 16:23: Message edited by: George Spigot ]

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Organ Builder
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Well, everyone's quick enough to blame religion for wars and terrorism aren't they? SusanDorris was clearly implying it in her statement. So why does Atheism get off the hook so easily?

Who is this ubiquitous "everyone"? My point was that if we as Christians explain away our involvement in horrors of the past (and we do) than we can hardly complain when an Atheist does the same thing. Flinging bum-fodder at each other isn't going to do one thing to really answer the question posed in the thread title.

If it's any comfort, I think SusanDoris was wrong to bring it up in such a fashion--because it doesn't bear a lot of weight if you look at her assertions too closely, for the very reasons you mentioned. Still, just like most of the Christian embarrassments mentioned in my footnote, it is the admixture of politics and political power that make either world-view explosively dangerous.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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George Spigot

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New thread anyone?


Atheism causes conflict and war and death and ethnic cleansing.

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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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Squibs
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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:


For me the question of what atheism 'has to offer' is the wrong one,

====

What it has to offer is just an interpretation of the world that makes sense to a lot of people.

Does not compute
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Mad Geo

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Re: "Atheist Regimes"

All capitalist regimes are Christian, therefore the excesses of capitalism are the fault of Christianity.

Oh wait, that is not true. Right? [Big Grin]

Regarding answering the OP:

The following are the plusses in my life that have derived from becoming an atheist.

  • No needless guilt that is offered up in religion/churches. "Sex is sin" What a patently STUPID idea.
  • I hold myself to a higher standard of morality than many Christians do. Not all, mind you, but many. Because some Christians practice horrible things in the name of their religion. Most notably, sexism and gay bigotry. Again, not all.
  • A better explanation of what I observe and think as a scientist than religion afforded me.
  • No sermons.
  • No churches. The people can actually be horrible. Not saying atheists can't, but I don't feel obligated to hang with them if they are.
  • Bacon. (Actually relevant in my case)
  • The satisfaction of seeing what so many other people don't. A form of objectivity that the religious do not enjoy and would deny, but exists once one takes off the blinders. Yes, this sounds arrogant, but you asked. The best way I can describe this is "We are all atheists relative to others gods, I just go one more than you". The way you feel about Baal, is how I feel about "God".
  • A focus on this life, instead of a false living for the next. I know too many Christians that accept their lot in this life, anticipating a future one. Sad.
  • Sleeping in on Saturday/Sunday without guilt.
  • Not wasting my mental faculties on anything related to religion that I am not interested in. I am interested in religion still. Kinda like I'm interested in Mythology.
  • I am happier.

That's what I've got off the top of my head.

I actually like the religious. I try to get along with them even more than I did when I was a Christian. I even think I understand why they hold onto religion. I just can't anymore and I am happier.

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Squibs
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:

[*]I hold myself to a higher standard of morality than many Christians do.

You live in a amoral universe. This means there are no moral standards floating around the universe. Morals are a function of the brain. Your brain is different to every other brain out there. How do you propose support the claim that your morals are of a better standard then all those nasty Christians out there?


quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
I actually like the religious.

That's swell of you!
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Mad Geo

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I stated how my standards are superior to SOME Christians.

I do not use the bible to call gay people sinners.

I do not keep women from positions of power using the bible.

The bible is a weak moral compass to put it mildly. Even a casual reading of the OT shows a perfectly vile form of morality.

I absolutely agree that morality exists from our minds. Unfortunately, many Christians do not understand this. Again, not all.

I state that I like the religious as many of my atheist "tribe" are here to bash religion. I prefer to attempt accommodation, and like to make that as clear as possible.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Squibs
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*an amoral universe

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And for Christian's, they are at root illusions fobbed on us by God?

I'm not sure if that is a genuine question or not. Do you suppose that all Christians believe God is separate to these things? Perhaps you think that God did something like create love when he created the universe? And perhaps he took a little for himself?
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lilBuddha
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Genuine comparison. Both mechanisms, in the context you outlay, are external. How is one superior to the other be it created by a God, inherent in the universe or selected for by evolution?

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Hallellou, hallellou

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
For once, I agree with Mark. It is bloody convenient for Atheists to disown Atheist regimes when it is convenient and then complain that religion is the cause of much conflict.

Own it and live with it - religion causes conflict and war and death and ethnic cleansing in exactly the same way as atheism, and vice versa.

Again, no. People cause conflict and war and death and ethnic cleansing. Some use religion as an excuse, some use atheism.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
For once, I agree with Mark. It is bloody convenient for Atheists to disown Atheist regimes when it is convenient and then complain that religion is the cause of much conflict.

Own it and live with it - religion causes conflict and war and death and ethnic cleansing in exactly the same way as atheism, and vice versa.

Again, no. People cause conflict and war and death and ethnic cleansing. Some use religion as an excuse, some use atheism.
Yes, very accurate, and a much needed accuracy, as to say that 'religion causes X' or 'atheism causes X' is absurd.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Squibs
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
I stated how my standards are superior to SOME Christians.

Yes, but you never told us how you measured your standards to determine that they are superior. You've just informed us that you are morally superior to some Christians.

I don't see much moral foundational difference between a Christian saying "It's im/moral coz the Bible sez it is" and you saying "it's im/moral because my brain sez so".

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
gain, no. People cause conflict and war and death and ethnic cleansing. Some use religion as an excuse, some use atheism.

The point is that there are many Atheists who like to use in argument the point that 'religious causes most wars' and at the same time deny that atheists cause wars.

I think your issue with these beliefs being used as an excuse is moot. Many seem to genuinely believe that their belief requires them to go to war, mass murder etc.

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Mad Geo

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I am not particularly interested in turning this into a morality play, so much as answering the question in the OP.

The answer to the question is:

The Ethic of Reciprocity a.k.a. Golden Rule.

My morality is more in keeping with that than someone which treats gays and women badly. Nearly every philosophy and religion in the world recognizes it. Christian religions (Ironically, in some cases) recognize it, and then fail to heed it's own ostensible idea. Morality is not difficult. Every culture in the world has the basics, and some religions ruin something that should be self-evident to anyone with a brain, eg The Ethic of Reciprocity.

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Squibs
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Genuine comparison. Both mechanisms, in the context you outlay, are external. How is one superior to the other be it created by a God, inherent in the universe or selected for by evolution?

Because one tricks us into believing that love, for example, is something other than a way of perpetuating genes. The other says that there actually is a standard that our love can be measured against.

Real values are superior to whatever the hell society thinks is correct in the way that a car in your driveway is superior to a car in your imagination when you need to get somewhere.


====


Btw, the comment above addressed to the long ranger is respectfully withdrawn.

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kankucho
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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
......2. Atheism: this life on earth is all there is, and when we die that's the end of all consciousness. There is no joy for anyone after this life, but also no pain. Just nothing.

That's not what atheism means though. You're describing nihilism -- which is an atheist 'denomination' but not intrinsically a statement on whether or not there is a god at the helm. Life that snuffs out when the engine room packs in could be created by God. And eternal life could be a matter of fact without an external agency being involved in its creation.

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
......In the end, at the Final Judgement, only God can decide.

Yes, of course. That's one of the attributes accorded to God by those who imagine him to exist. On the other hand, if he doesn't exist, then he can't. And causality is our only judgment.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
Because one tricks us into believing that love, for example, is something other than a way of perpetuating genes. The other says that there actually is a standard that our love can be measured against.

Just out of curiosity, what units are used to measure love, and how is that measure taken? This could certainly make sibling disputes a lot easier to resolve.

"So if you'll look at the chart on page three, you can see that I received a total of 247 milliluvs compared to your 632, proving conclusively that Mom did, in fact, love you best."

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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SusanDoris

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Your statement is both wrong and an insult to the many millions who were slain, imprisoned, or martyred - all in the name of atheism. [Mad]

No. In the name of a political movement of which atheism is a part. NOT the same thing.
Agreed - I knew there was a better way of expressing this, but would have had to hunt around, so also, a thank you!

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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SusanDoris

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quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
*an amoral universe

Do you suppose that all Christians believe God
is separate to these things?

But there are as many different views as to whether God is separate from this or that as there are humans to think about this; it is a personal opinion - i.e. they are human ideas.
quote:
Perhaps you think that God did something like create love when he created the universe? And perhaps he took a little for himself?
Everything that God is supposed to have done, or not done, is supposed to be or is not supposed to be, is a human idea, isnn't it?

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
I am not particularly interested in turning this into a morality play, so much as answering the question in the OP.

The answer to the question is:

The Ethic of Reciprocity a.k.a. Golden Rule.

My morality is more in keeping with that than someone which treats gays and women badly. Nearly every philosophy and religion in the world recognizes it. Christian religions (Ironically, in some cases) recognize it, and then fail to heed it's own ostensible idea. Morality is not difficult. Every culture in the world has the basics, and some religions ruin something that should be self-evident to anyone with a brain, eg The Ethic of Reciprocity.

Anyone with a brain can see that the Golden Rule as a system of ethics is a fallacy.

Mainly because, on its own, it is value free. What I would like done to me is not necessarily what my neighbour would like done to her.

A sadomasochist would like and invite pain inflicted and would like to inflict pain.

Personally, I'm not so keen on pain.

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a theological scrapbook

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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
I gather Craig's point is that without God concepts like beauty, justice, love, morality, purpose and meaning and so on are at root illusions fobbed off on us by evolution.

Why would evolution make these things illusionary?

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Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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kankucho
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Anyone with a brain can see that the Golden Rule as a system of ethics is a fallacy.

Mainly because, on its own, it is value free. What I would like done to me is not necessarily what my neighbour would like done to her.

A sadomasochist would like and invite pain inflicted and would like to inflict pain.

Personally, I'm not so keen on pain.

Are there any other bits of the Sermon on the Mount that are only for the brainless?

[ 03. October 2012, 17:31: Message edited by: kankucho ]

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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
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Mad Geo

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LOL

Even Song

Well, speaking as an atheist, I find it interesting you went there, given I'm affirming the positive nature of the ethic, not the negative one.

One of the things us atheists find amusing is when Christians say "Well if you don't have the bible to follow, you might do all KINDS of things!"

Us atheists look at that and think "Well, if THAT'S all from keeping you from being evil, well, by all means keep following the bible, because clearly you are one amoral bastard without it!"

I am NOT saying you are, I'm just pointing out that morality exists independtly of the bible, and I was TRYING to keep out of the morality play. Clearly unsuccesfully.

Suffice it to say, I have a very well developed moral code, I stick to it well, and it's better than any Christian's that suppresses women (using Paul's alleged writings and OT writings) or gays (using both the NT and OT versions of that bigotry).

I'm actually stipulating your (presumed) book (The Golden Rule), I might add. It's the nasty bits of morality, genocide, rape being okay, giving up daughters to mobs of people, gay bashing, etc etc.
that I think makes biblical morality inferior.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
I gather Craig's point is that without God concepts like beauty, justice, love, morality, purpose and meaning and so on are at root illusions fobbed off on us by evolution.

Why would evolution make these things illusionary?
Because they are basically patterns of neurons?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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the long ranger
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I'm quite liking Kant. He seems to offer a fairly well reasoned and developed moral code without needing a deity.

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
I gather Craig's point is that without God concepts like beauty, justice, love, morality, purpose and meaning and so on are at root illusions fobbed off on us by evolution.

Why would evolution make these things illusionary?
Because they are basically patterns of neurons?
But that's not illusionary.

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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:

Suffice it to say, I have a very well developed moral code, I stick to it well, and it's better than any Christian's that suppresses women (using Paul's alleged writings and OT writings) or gays (using both the NT and OT versions of that bigotry).

Sure you do. But it didn't come out of a vacuum.

A most curious part of the God Delusion is Dawkin's discussion of why Pasal's wager is wrong.

His moral argument comes straight from his Church of England upbringing.

So any "morality" an atheist growing up in a Christian county professes will come from Christianity.

You think misogyny and homophobia are wrong? On what basis?

A Christian basis.

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a theological scrapbook

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Squibs
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
Because one tricks us into believing that love, for example, is something other than a way of perpetuating genes. The other says that there actually is a standard that our love can be measured against.

Just out of curiosity, what units are used to measure love, and how is that measure taken? This could certainly make sibling disputes a lot easier to resolve.

"So if you'll look at the chart on page three, you can see that I received a total of 247 milliluvs compared to your 632, proving conclusively that Mom did, in fact, love you best."

Yeah, because everything should be measurable on a scale.
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Squibs
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quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Everything that God is supposed to have done, or not done, is supposed to be or is not supposed to be, is a human idea, isnn't it?

Yes, "God's nature is X, Y and Z" is an idea. And advanced ideas as this are, to my knowledge, always human ideas. And this includes ideas about the nature of the universe, the existence of God and your atheism. None of which are made null and void simply because they happen to have the quality of emanating from a human brain. I'm sorry, but I don't see your point, Susan.
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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:


You think misogyny and homophobia are wrong? On what basis?

A Christian basis.

How do you know that? If your only experience of Christianity was that misogyny and homophobia were promoted, how can you then say that your moral outrage is Christian?

Seems like you're just saying that all Good Morals come from Christianity. Is it not possible that someone works some out for themselves?

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
I gather Craig's point is that without God concepts like beauty, justice, love, morality, purpose and meaning and so on are at root illusions fobbed off on us by evolution.

Why would evolution make these things illusionary?
Because they are basically patterns of neurons?
But that's not illusionary.
This depends on how far you go with materialism, doesn't it? If you are an eliminative materialist, you might argue that things such as justice were illusions, since they consist of large numbers of fundamental particles, whizzing round. That is what reality is.

If you are willing to accept abstract things like justice as existing in their own right, and not just as particles, fair enough. Then you are a sort of dualist, I suppose.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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quetzalcoatl
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Sorry to post this separately; blame idiotic soft-ware, which has such a short time lag for editing.

Francis Crick:

"The astonishing hypothesis is that you, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules".

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:

Suffice it to say, I have a very well developed moral code, I stick to it well, and it's better than any Christian's that suppresses women (using Paul's alleged writings and OT writings) or gays (using both the NT and OT versions of that bigotry).

Sure you do. But it didn't come out of a vacuum.

A most curious part of the God Delusion is Dawkin's discussion of why Pasal's wager is wrong.

His moral argument comes straight from his Church of England upbringing.

So any "morality" an atheist growing up in a Christian county professes will come from Christianity.

You think misogyny and homophobia are wrong? On what basis?

A Christian basis.

And yet so often it's Christians you're fighting against when you stand against these things. Weird innit?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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quetzalcoatl
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But surely misogyny and homophobia don't originate in the Abrahamic religions, but in patriarchal society itself. For example, anti-gay feelings can be linked with the fierce code of masculinity which we find in many societies. For example, anthropologists have studied societies round the Med, where a macho culture has predominated, often linked with homophobia.

To argue that religion 'causes' these things strike me as ahistorical. The Abrahamic religions have undoubtedly been expression of patriarchy, but they are not the origins of it.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But surely misogyny and homophobia don't originate in the Abrahamic religions, but in patriarchal society itself. For example, anti-gay feelings can be linked with the fierce code of masculinity which we find in many societies. For example, anthropologists have studied societies round the Med, where a macho culture has predominated, often linked with homophobia.

To argue that religion 'causes' these things strike me as ahistorical. The Abrahamic religions have undoubtedly been expression of patriarchy, but they are not the origins of it.

I'm not arguing that it causes them. I would point out though as a simple matter of fact that it perpetuates them.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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quetzalcoatl
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I think it's more accurate to say that Christianity is a 'site of contestation' in relation to these inhumane ideas. In other words, the struggle against them is played out within it.

As a matter of interest, (anecdote alert), I grew up in a very tough N. England area, where racism, sexism and homophobia were rife. There were hardly any religious people living there, as the working class in England largely gave up religion about 200 years ago.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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