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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in Benghazi
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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A guy based in California who identifies himself as an Israeli Jew (Source: NY Times) makes a movie mocking the prophet Muhammad, so a crowd storms the U.S. consulate in Benghazi and kills the American ambassador, Christopher Stevens, who had supported the Libyan rebels in their struggle against Qaddafi.

Way to go, Benghazi. You just got played.

[ 01. December 2012, 10:48: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109

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Sad. What is there to say: press the right buttons and some people react.

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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passer

Indigo
# 13329

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And Mr Romney seeks to make political capital out of it as, it seems, only he can. What a piece of work this guy is.
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by passer:
And Mr Romney seeks to make political capital out of it as, it seems, only he can. What a piece of work this guy is.

And he did it before midnight on the day he'd pledged to do no campaigning.

Ditto your assessment.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
And Mr Romney seeks to make political capital out of it as, it seems, only he can. What a piece of work this guy is.

And he did it before midnight on the day he'd pledged to do no campaigning.
t.

He lied. Just like he lies about Obama. He is pandering to the racist bigots who want to kick out the Muslim nigger (as they would call him) but he can't say that straight out on TV so he resorts to sleazy dog-whistles.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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Just as a heads up, I started a Styx thread related to the prior post.

Prayers for the people involved, and the families of the deceased. [Votive]

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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the long ranger
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# 17109

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
He lied. Just like he lies about Obama. He is pandering to the racist bigots who want to kick out the Muslim nigger (as they would call him) but he can't say that straight out on TV so he resorts to sleazy dog-whistles.

ken, that is the most unpleasant slur against a whole group of people that I have ever seen. As much as you or I might not like to think it, not all Republicans are racist. Some of them are black (and hispanic and gay and whatnot).

Moreover, unless you are actually black yourself, there is no context where it is appropriate for you to use that word - even if you are accurately describing someone else using it in anger. Which clearly you're not.

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Caissa
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Ken did not say all Republicans are racists.
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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Ken did not say all Republicans are racists.

Oh yeah, sorry, he said that Presidential candidate is pandering to the racists in his own party. My mistake.

How could I have assumed that ken thinks there are such a large racist minority that it is worth specifically speaking to them in a speech like this? I have no idea.

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
How could I have assumed that ken thinks there are such a large racist minority that it is worth specifically speaking to them in a speech like this? I have no idea.

Because there is such a large racist minority? At the very least, Republican politicians have form in appealing to any such minority that may exist.

Incidentally, there's a novel by Joseph Conrad that would be quite hard to refer to without using the word in question.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Louise
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It's irrelevant to the subject of this thread but the substantial role of racism in opposition to Obama has been quite eloquently argued.

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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

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Zach82
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# 3208

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Not all republicans are racists, but racists are overwhelmingly republican. If only republicans would give some thought to why that might be instead of pretending race isn't an issue.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Not all republicans are racists, but racists are overwhelmingly republican.

Bullshit. But could this tangent please be taken to a new thread?
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Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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Back to the OP. Experts agree attack was by pro Al Queda group who had preplanned attack, but took full advantage of the angry protests.

"Noman Benotman, once a leading member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group and now based at the Quilliam Foundation in London told CNN, "An attack like this would likely have required preparation. This would not seem to be merely a protest which escalated."

"According to our sources, the attack was the work of roughly 20 militants, prepared for a military assault; it is rare that an RPG7 is present at a peaceful protest," Benotman said."


Romney rushed to get a statement before it was known what would develop with the protests, before the embassy attacks and is already blaming Obama for not securing the embassies. Without a marine contingent like the terrorist response unit being sent being posted at each embassy, it's hard defend against a rocket launcher and grenades. The security forces in the embassy - both U.S. and Libyan - fought admirably. Romney has shown he shoots his mouth off before all the facts are in and if in office, would probably already have us in a full scale war by now. It should be noted, the Libyan government responded with a quick condemnation and apology for the attacks.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Crśsos
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quote:
Originally posted by passer:
And Mr Romney seeks to make political capital out of it as, it seems, only he can. What a piece of work this guy is.

A brief photo-essay on Mitt Romney's Benghazi statement.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Ken did not say all Republicans are racists.

Oh yeah, sorry, he said that Presidential candidate is pandering to the racists in his own party. My mistake.

How could I have assumed that ken thinks there are such a large racist minority that it is worth specifically speaking to them in a speech like this? I have no idea.

You've no idea? Romeny panders to the birthers in the form of jokes and Donald Trump. Birther movement has strong racist ties, so not much of a stretch.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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New Yorker
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# 9898

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Romeny panders to the birthers in the form of jokes and Donald Trump. Birther movement has strong racist ties, so not much of a stretch.

What about that joke Obama made the other day about birth certificates? Is he a racist now?
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Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Romeny panders to the birthers in the form of jokes and Donald Trump. Birther movement has strong racist ties, so not much of a stretch.

What about that joke Obama made the other day about birth certificates? Is he a racist now?
It shows he has a sense of humor in the face of racism - even after 6 long, tiring years of conspiracy theorist attacks on his proven citizenship. Not a bad quality to have.

Romney, unlike McCain has not ordered his campaign staff to stop with those attacks and he can make a "joke" knowing it just fans the flames. I have a lot more respect for McCain then Romney. Romney will go with proven falsehoods "because it works" whereas McCain shut them down.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Re the murders and the response to the film:

I have a hard time wrapping my mind around either the Libyan response, or the non-lethal Cairo response. (Or, for that matter, the handling of the Christian girl with learning or developmental disabilities who allegedly threw away pages of the Koran...and may have been set up by an imam.)

Granted, I've grown up in a country that's supposed to prize religious freedom (even if that's often been applied only to Christians [Roll Eyes] ). Many people here got very upset over Scorcese's "Last Temptation Of Christ", but I don't remember the reaction being anywhere near as bad as the reaction to the anti-Mohammed film.

I know there's speculation that the Libyan protest was meant to be non-lethal, too, but was taken over by extremists. But I still don't get the severity of the non-lethal parts of either protest. Or many of the other Muslim protests I've seen on TV over the years. Some may have been staged, but all of them???


I don't have the specific cultural/religious knowledge to sort this out. Can anyone help, please???

Thanks!

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
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Apparently there are questions about the identity of the director.

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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re the murders and the response to the film:

I have a hard time wrapping my mind around either the Libyan response, or the non-lethal Cairo response. (Or, for that matter, the handling of the Christian girl with learning or developmental disabilities who allegedly threw away pages of the Koran...and may have been set up by an imam.)

Granted, I've grown up in a country that's supposed to prize religious freedom (even if that's often been applied only to Christians [Roll Eyes] ). Many people here got very upset over Scorcese's "Last Temptation Of Christ", but I don't remember the reaction being anywhere near as bad as the reaction to the anti-Mohammed film.

I know there's speculation that the Libyan protest was meant to be non-lethal, too, but was taken over by extremists. But I still don't get the severity of the non-lethal parts of either protest. Or many of the other Muslim protests I've seen on TV over the years. Some may have been staged, but all of them???


I don't have the specific cultural/religious knowledge to sort this out. Can anyone help, please???

Thanks!

As I gave reference to a link upthread it is believed that the Libyan attack was a pre-planned attack by a pro Al Queda group who took advantage of the protest. The attack was done with rocket launcher and other military grade equipment is generally not stock for a citizen protest.

As to the violence in general, there is no excuse for it, but it is a little understandable. These are countries whose populations have pretty much never known freedom and have been kept in 3rd world conditions by dictators. Those conditions are ripe for religious extremism and superstition in general.

While our country was supposedly founded on religious freedom, but death penalty was a common sentence for perceived blasphemy with a different interpretation in different colonies on what constituted blasphemy. We've come a long way a Republic and the prosperity that that form of government allowed. Remember other details like women and children being considered property lasted long into the last century. We still have violent riots over perceived prejudice or even over who won/lost sports championships.

It needs to be remembered that Libyans fought and died alongside Americans in the embassy, helped rescue many and ensured the bodies of the Americans killed were taken to a hospital - at great risk to themselves. It really isn't black or white. I hope that in time a form of government allows for freedom and prosperity. In those things we won't see the senseless violence over religion.

[ 13. September 2012, 02:34: Message edited by: Niteowl ]

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470

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That's funny!
He was on Israeli tv last on last night's news and was introduced as an ex-US Marine! In a long-ish interview he didn't claim any connection to Israel; other than being a Jew which he also didn't state as such.

I felt (feel) so sad for the Ambassador and the others. I commented at the time (well, as usual screamed at the tv) "And he was probably an 'Arabist' too. He was on your side, you idiots". My mother would have said "Ohhhh...he had such a nice face". He did too.

Has anyone asked "Where was security?"
Or were they all in red velour shits and got messed up in a "transporter malfunction" or died on "re-materialisation" a la Star Trek...

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Apparently there are questions about the identity of the director.

Double post to add that he's a coward. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know innocent lives may be lost with provocation, wrong though the attackers may be. You should at least have the courage of your own convictions to face some danger here. That danger is far less than the danger faced by Americans in those countries.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

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So let’s get this straight.

Someone makes a satirical film about Mahommed, and some Islamist extremists use it as pretext to murder someone who had nothing to do with it.

And the response?

A passionate defence of the liberal values of freedom of expression and religious pluralism, in the face of neanderthal, theocratic absolutism?

Not on your sweet Nelly!

No, a po-faced condemnation of those who made the film, and a petty, partisan, parochial, opportunistic attack on a politician who misreported it.

I am trying to imagine the uproar had someone made a satirical film about Jesus, and a mob of Christian extremists had responded by going out and killing someone at random.

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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
the Christian girl with learning or developmental disabilities who allegedly threw away pages of the Koran...and may have been set up by an imam.


Apologies if I am wrong, but I think this is the first reference on the Ship to this appalling and heart-wrenching situation.

Which is disturbingly exposing.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
No, a po-faced condemnation of those who made the film, and a petty, partisan, parochial, opportunistic attack on a politician who misreported it.

1. The people who made the "po-faced condemnation" had people outside the doors with pitchforks and torches. They were trying to save their skins. Attacking them for trying to save their skins is cowardly and base.

2. Romney didn't "misreport" it. Give me a fucking break. HE ATTACKED OBAMA over it. An opportunistic, partisan attack. My God. Are you intentionally lying about this, or have you been deceived?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

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Films like this, in the current situation in the Middle East, are like pouring petrol in copious amounts on a blazing bonfire.

Of course Al Quaida and similar would not see the film as funny. That's a no brainer.

Of course all rational people are aghast at the death of the American ambassador and colleagues in Benghazi.

What was in play was the ghastly old Arab tradition from the days well before Islam of totally out of proportion revenge for a slight on "my" people, honour etc. by one of "your" people: this is taking tribalism - a very important part of Arab and Libyan life - to utter extremes.

My horror at the murders, prayers for the deceased and sympathy for their relatives. [Votive]

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Well...

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
the Christian girl with learning or developmental disabilities who allegedly threw away pages of the Koran...and may have been set up by an imam.


Apologies if I am wrong, but I think this is the first reference on the Ship to this appalling and heart-wrenching situation.

Which is disturbingly exposing.

I'm not sure if it's been discussed, Kaplan, and we probably shouldn't detour this thread. But if you search on something like "girl jailed for desecrating Koran" and maybe add "imam" to it, you should find info. Don't remember what country the girl is in.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
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Pakistan,the girl has been bailed and the imam has been arrested - but it is believed she and her family remain at risk from the community in which they live.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Gee D
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I certainly deplore the violence of the reaction, but what were the Copts who made the film thinking of? They certainly won't be helping the cause of those remaining in Egypt, who are having a particularly hard time since the overthrow of Mubarak.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Golden Key
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Thanks, DT. I'd heard that the family and Christian community were still getting threats.

I don't know much about Sharia law...but if the imam is found guilty of both framing an innocent person and desecrating the Koran...
[Paranoid]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Gee D--

From what I've heard on the news, it's not at all clear who's behind the making of the film. I saw one of the actresses (on ABC's "Nightline"--that's the American ABC), and she said the actors were all tricked--the script (which was shown) used the name of "George" instead of Mohammed, and new words were dubbed in. Per the actress, it was supposed to be a film about long-ago times. (Though calling anyone from back then "George" would raise a red flag for me...but maybe the actors didn't know any better, or previously played badly-written scripts.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Niteowl

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# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
No, a po-faced condemnation of those who made the film, and a petty, partisan, parochial, opportunistic attack on a politician who misreported it.

1. The people who made the "po-faced condemnation" had people outside the doors with pitchforks and torches. They were trying to save their skins. Attacking them for trying to save their skins is cowardly and base.

2. Romney didn't "misreport" it. Give me a fucking break. HE ATTACKED OBAMA over it. An opportunistic, partisan attack. My God. Are you intentionally lying about this, or have you been deceived?

Romney didn't wait until facts were substantiated or he lied. Either way it is a continuing pattern of behavior that makes him unfit to be president.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Niteowl

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quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
That's funny!

Has anyone asked "Where was security?"
Or were they all in red velour shits and got messed up in a "transporter malfunction" or died on "re-materialisation" a la Star Trek...

The attack was a well coordinated military style attack with military grade weapons including rocket launchers. I'm not sure how much could have been done, especially since there was nothing prior to this that warned of an impending attack. Civilian protesters would not bringing such weapons to a protest that was spontaneous after the posting of an Arabic translation of a film no one had even heard of before now, that was a complete done when the English version was premiered to empty theaters here months ago. I would love to know who did and uploaded the translation.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
No, a po-faced condemnation of those who made the film, and a petty, partisan, parochial, opportunistic attack on a politician who misreported it.

1. The people who made the "po-faced condemnation" had people outside the doors with pitchforks and torches. They were trying to save their skins. Attacking them for trying to save their skins is cowardly and base.

2. Romney didn't "misreport" it. Give me a fucking break. HE ATTACKED OBAMA over it. An opportunistic, partisan attack. My God. Are you intentionally lying about this, or have you been deceived?

1. I was referring to those on the Ship who condemned the film, none of whom to the best of my knowledge were being threatened with "pitchforks and torches".

The point is not whether the film is any good - from what I have seen of it online it is pretty crappy - but that on an occasion such as this, the absolute priority is to assert the principle (whether or not Voltaire actually said it) of "I might not agree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it".

2. Once more, a breathtaking talent for missing the point, which is the murderous intolerance itself, not how some politician might be exploiting it, however unscrupulously.

Whenever anyone is forced to resort to capital letters in a post, I am reminded of the old story of the clergyman who wrote in the margin of his sermon notes; "Argument weak at this point; shout louder".

[ 13. September 2012, 07:45: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

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Niteowl

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Gee D--

From what I've heard on the news, it's not at all clear who's behind the making of the film. I saw one of the actresses (on ABC's "Nightline"--that's the American ABC), and she said the actors were all tricked--the script (which was shown) used the name of "George" instead of Mohammed, and new words were dubbed in. Per the actress, it was supposed to be a film about long-ago times. (Though calling anyone from back then "George" would raise a red flag for me...but maybe the actors didn't know any better, or previously played badly-written scripts.

The local news program I saw of an interview with her stated she was a part time pastor, part time actress. The movie was badly done, and apparently the inflammatory stuff was added in in post editing via dubbing and other means. According to her the actors who made it, the original title on the script was Desert Warriors and the actors were informed it was about life in ancient Egypt and that Muhammad's name and the most inflammatory rhetoric was dubbed in afterwards. I'd say if it's true that Muhammad wasn't mentioned by name it speaks to the actors' inexperience and probably desperation for work. The final producer for the movie was brought in late and shared an extreme hatred of Islam with whoever Sam Bacile actually turns out to be. The actors and actresses used their real names and have also been hung out to dry and put in danger.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Golden Key
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Upthread, I mentioned the protests about the film "The Last Temptation Of Christ". The "Controversy" section of the Wikipedia article lists various protests, including a violent one in Paris.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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I've been wondering if "Sam Bacile" is meant to be a pun on "imbecile"--seriously.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Niteowl

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
No, a po-faced condemnation of those who made the film, and a petty, partisan, parochial, opportunistic attack on a politician who misreported it.

1. The people who made the "po-faced condemnation" had people outside the doors with pitchforks and torches. They were trying to save their skins. Attacking them for trying to save their skins is cowardly and base.

2. Romney didn't "misreport" it. Give me a fucking break. HE ATTACKED OBAMA over it. An opportunistic, partisan attack. My God. Are you intentionally lying about this, or have you been deceived?

1. I was referring to those on the Ship who condemned the film, none of whom to the best of my knowledge were being threatened with "pitchforks and torches".

The point is not whether the film is any good - from what I have seen of it online it is pretty crappy - but that on an occasion such as this, the absolute priority is to assert the principle (whether or not Voltaire actually said it) of "I might not agree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it".

2. Once more, a breathtaking talent for missing the point, which is the murderous intolerance itself, not how some politician might be exploiting it, however unscrupulously.

Whenever anyone is forced to resort to capital letters in a post, I am reminded of the old story of the clergyman who wrote in the margin of his sermon notes; "Argument weak at this point; shout louder".

I don't think anyone here has condemned the film, but rather that with the history and culture of the countries involved it was the height of negligence for the most offensive parts to be translated into Arabic and released to the countries that are in the midst of instability with those that would use it. It didn't take a rocket scientist to anticipate what the results would be. I have a theory that since the movie was released here to empty theaters months ago that the cowards who wouldn't attach their real names to the movie decided to get a little "free publicity" as well as further their agenda in this country. And we have all here defended freedom speech. Freedom of speech includes the responsibility of weighing the consequences of what you put out there. Speech is not unlimited here.

If you can't see why Romney's release of his statement at the time it was released with the events still in progress and little facts known, as well as blatantly false statements for quite likely pure political gain makes him a bad choice for president, not sure what can be done. First, in the midst of an international crisis it is paramount that presidents and candidates have their facts straight BEFORE issuing statements. Secondly, don't defend it once the facts are known. The statement by the Cairo embassy was issued at the start of the protests and was a wise attempt to try and curb the animosity. President Obama was quick to condemn the violence and waited until he had all of the facts about the attack in Libya, including a verification of the death of our diplomat. Those who basically shoot off their mouth before the facts are in and for their own gain have no business being president.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Niteowl

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It appears the protesters have stormed the embassy grounds in Yemen setting fire to vehicles.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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George Spigot

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@Sir Pellinore
quote:
Films like this, in the current situation in the Middle East, are like pouring petrol in copious amounts on a blazing bonfire.
@Gee D
quote:
I certainly deplore the violence of the reaction, but what were the Copts who made the film thinking of? They certainly won't be helping the cause of those remaining in Egypt, who are having a particularly hard time since the overthrow of Mubarak.
@Niteowl
quote:
I don't think anyone here has condemned the film, but rather that with the history and culture of the countries involved it was the height of negligence for the most offensive parts to be translated into Arabic and released to the countries that are in the midst of instability with those that would use it. It didn't take a rocket scientist to anticipate what the results would be.

Where do you draw the line. How many words are you willing to censor because someone else may decide to react with violence. Remember, we are talking about words.
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Sir Pellinore
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A film, seemingly deliberately designed to offend, does more than any mere words. We are not talking polite inter-religious dialogue here.

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Well...

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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
A film, seemingly deliberately designed to offend, does more than any mere words. We are not talking polite inter-religious dialogue here.

The actors did not physically attack anyone. They did not damage anyone's property. They spoke mere words.

The fact that the result caused violence does not change the fact that the violence was a response to words. I think my question still stands.

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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
The actors did not physically attack anyone. They did not damage anyone's property. They spoke mere words.

The fact that the result caused violence does not change the fact that the violence was a response to words. I think my question still stands.

They are just words, but they're just words that had a serious impact on someone else. Nobody is going to persuade certain Muslims to stop taking offense at these kinds of things - so the responsible thing to do is to tell those who make such statements to stop, if only to protect the innocent. In the same way, verbally baiting a violent criminal might be perfectly legal, but stupid.

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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George Spigot

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OK lets try a thought experiment. Please note this is just a thought experiment and not something I would ever do.

In my religion I find the word Jesus to be highly offensive. I'm giving a clear warning that if anyone else on the ship makes a post including that word I will protest by going to the nearest church and violently attacking as many people as I can before I get caught.

Obviously this will lead to my arrest and probably imprisonment, (and rightly so). I expect I will see lots of posts here condemning my actions. I will also very much look forward to all the posts accusing the people who posted about Jesus for being stupid. Obviously they should not have posted that word.

End of thought experiment.

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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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the long ranger
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If there were people being violent because of the use of individual words, then that would be extremely difficult to do something about.

But that isn't the situation we're in. We have a situation where someone is deliberately making and publicising a film which is designed to offend people who are known to be violent.

With regard to this website, that'd be more similar to someone publicising a video of Jesus doing something disgusting to Simon Peter and claiming that to be the only legitimate understanding of scripture when they know that would cause people to be violent.

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
If there were people being violent because of the use of individual words, then that would be extremely difficult to do something about.

But that isn't the situation we're in. We have a situation where someone is deliberately making and publicising a film which is designed to offend people who are known to be violent.

With regard to this website, that'd be more similar to someone publicising a video of Jesus doing something disgusting to Simon Peter and claiming that to be the only legitimate understanding of scripture when they know that would cause people to be violent.

So just to be absolutely clear here. If someone got beaten up because of such a film you would partly blame the film makers?

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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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Kaplan Corday
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You're absolutely right, GS, but you're wasting your breath.

You're up against a blame the victim mentality analogous to that which holds women responsible for any sexual harassment they suffer because they exercise their freedom to dress as they please.

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George Spigot

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Also I'm legitimately interested in answers to my where to draw the line question. Are you guys willing to cancel any kind of creative project if it could be shown it might strongly offend people prone to violence.

By the way I'm not sure I agree with the "these people are violent therefore" argument.

Is the best way to deal with a violent person really to pander to their wishes every time? How is that going to improve anything in the long run?

[ 13. September 2012, 10:36: Message edited by: George Spigot ]

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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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Matt Black

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We went round the houses on this issue IIRC on the Terry Jones thread in Hell some months ago. I think I argued there that the responsibility for the violence lay mainly if not exclusively with...er...the violent people, strangely enough...

Same here. If the offence was the problem, then you would have expected the protests over The Last Temptation of Christ and Jerry Springer, the Opera to have resulted in RPGs and buildings being burned down. So, it ain't the offence that's the issue, but the violence inherent in some of the people taking that offence.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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