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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: New Frontiers new apostolic spheres
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
I think there were a lot of small steps in between.
Does this mean that any Tom, Dick or Harry (Terry Virgo for example) can decide the churches have got it all wrong, and found their own "church"?
Obviously they can, but where is their Authority?
According to the local guys: "Our authority is made evident by the fact that people are following us."
Within the Protestant church, any Tom, Dick, or Harry can decide that the rest of the Church has got it wrong and found their own. And many do. Not many gather quite as much a following as NF. Whether that's proof of their legitimacy or not is up for debate.
Personally, I spent almost 2 years in a NF church as part of an agreement when I came to work at the nearby retreat center that the local NF pastor runs. I could have written Arminian's post, that was my experience almost exactly. The only thing that I'd add was that I also had to censure my views when not in church while talking to any church members, or be accused of 'sowing discord among the brethren.'
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
At least now I know what the elders mean when they talk of a "Jezebel spirit!"
Seriously though, why should you be given any leadership role if you are in disagreement with their principles?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
At least now I know what the elders mean when they talk of a "Jezebel spirit!"
Seriously though, why should you be given any leadership role if you are in disagreement with their principles?
I was also accused of exactly that (if you want my story, well-known to older Shipmates, read this (you may need to wade through several layers of pages). While relationships with some of the individuals in question have, long after the events, been restored (with one person involved in particular at the sharp end recognising what a load of horse manure the Jezabel thing was), my criticism of the movement as a whole remains pretty much the same.
To answer your question, this is the whole problem with unwritten rules and having to constantly read between the lines. I thought I was following NF principles wholeheartedly, but unbeknown to me I somehow got on the wrong side of those principles, which is when what I had thought was a non-hierachical, informal network of relationships suddenly turned into a completely top-down, authoritarian organisation with me as the accused.
Another way of answering your question is for you to go and watch the film The Firm and ask yourself how Mitch, the character played by Tom Cruise ends up working there and almost dying there. I've heard some of the lines in that film word for word in NF circles.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
I think there were a lot of small steps in between.
Does this mean that any Tom, Dick or Harry (Terry Virgo for example) can decide the churches have got it all wrong, and found their own "church"?
Obviously they can, but where is their Authority?
It's a basic weakness (depending on one's POV of course) of Protestantism as a whole: the Reformers created the climate for further splits within Christendom. After all, if Luther (who was he after all?) could start his own church, why couldn’t anyone else? This is, of course, the fundamental weakness of Protestantism; that any old Tom, Dick or Harry (yes, it’s usually men who are the problem here) can set up shop on his own, attract a following and declare himself to be the sole repository of all truth.
Therefore Protestantism, taken to its logical conclusion, and despite its stated reliance on the Bible as the revealed Word of God, is nevertheless dependent ultimately on individual conscience and interpretation of that Word. Thus it is fair comment to say that the individual (and his/her relationship with God) is at the heart of the Protestant creeds.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Mark Betts
There are (maybe still in print) some good books about the Theology and Practices of the Restoration Church movement. Andrew Walker has written a couple. Worth a bit of Googling, if you're interested.
I don't think New Frontiers theology and practice maps all that well onto Luther. Luther started off trying to reform from within. The Restoration Movement was far more pessimistic than that about the existing church denominations. Hence "New Church". There was a fair bit of pronouncing "Ichabod" over the existing churches. Not something it is ever wise to do.
They've moved on a bit since then, but ecumenism and NF theology still don't sit all that well together.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
I think there were a lot of small steps in between.
Does this mean that any Tom, Dick or Harry (Terry Virgo for example) can decide the churches have got it all wrong, and found their own "church"?
Obviously they can, but where is their Authority?
There's a huge difference between sola scripura and nuda scriptura. As Barnabas says above, I don't think your comparison of the NFI and Luther holds any water whatsoever.
I hesitate to say this, but it sounds like you are repeatedly reacting to various things without particularly knowing an awful lot about the subjects you are trying to link together.
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
Agreed with what you say about Luther's intentions, but his career is also a demonstration of the law of unintended consequences!
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Agreed with what you say about Luther's intentions, but his career is also a demonstration of the law of unintended consequences!
Very true. You might say the same about the New Church movement.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
There's a huge difference between sola scripura and nuda scriptura.
I had to google "nuda scriptura" because I've never heard of it before. However I couldn't help coming to the conclusion that "sola scriptura" will always degenerate into "nuda scriptura" precisely because of the confusion regarding Authority.
This means that, practically speaking there really isn't much difference between the two, except that no-one ever says they are "nuda scriptura" - it is a term of abuse.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
There's a huge difference between sola scripura and nuda scriptura.
I had to google "nuda scriptura" because I've never heard of it before. However I couldn't help coming to the conclusion that "sola scriptura" will always degenerate into "nuda scriptura" precisely because of the confusion regarding Authority.
In which case I'm surprised that you would object to NFI, as their model of Authority would be near identical to your own.
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
...In which case I'm surprised that you would object to NFI, as their model of Authority would be near identical to your own.
I don't accept "sola scriptura" nor "nuda scriptura", so I'd love to know how you worked that out (no disrespect).
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
...In which case I'm surprised that you would object to NFI, as their model of Authority would be near identical to your own.
I don't accept "sola scriptura" nor "nuda scriptura", so I'd love to know how you worked that out (no disrespect).
Because the comparison between the Magisterial Reformation and the NFI is about as close as the comparison between Orthodoxy and the NFI.
After all; both are groups that but a lot of stock in having New Testament roots and being presided over by a number of specially anointed individuals.
You would presumably recognise the above as a parody even as it uses words that have a completely different meaning in the two contexts in which they are used.
So I don't think your comparison is particularly helpful in advancing this discussion which specifically about 'New Frontiers new apostolic spheres' - though you are welcome to start a thread on Luther and Terry Virgo if you so wish. It doesn't bode well that the first comparison you drew was to a text you hadn't read.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
In short, I find that all this supports what I've argued here before. Newfrontiers cultivates a culture that is modelled on an authoritarian view of apostleship that it enforces when it suits, but shrouds this in plausible deniability. Nobody can point to where Terry, or anyone else, has said they are an apostle, even if they are "moving" in these mysterious "apostolic spheres".
I came to some of the same conclusions you did when reading that article; it seemed to me that the possible break will come if and when one of the new 'people operating in an apostolic capacity' have some kind of strategic/doctrinal difference with the movement as a whole.
Additionally, it doesn't actually solve the succession problem that has been looming for a while. The best that can be hoped for is various groups who maintain friendly relationships with each other.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Because the comparison between the Magisterial Reformation and the NFI is about as close as the comparison between Orthodoxy and the NFI.
After all; both are groups that but a lot of stock in having New Testament roots and being presided over by a number of specially anointed individuals.
You would presumably recognise the above as a parody even as it uses words that have a completely different meaning in the two contexts in which they are used.
Exactly!
quote:
So I don't think your comparison is particularly helpful in advancing this discussion which specifically about 'New Frontiers new apostolic spheres' - though you are welcome to start a thread on Luther and Terry Virgo if you so wish. It doesn't bode well that the first comparison you drew was to a text you hadn't read.
Sorry, but the problem is clearly that you have bought into "sola scriptura", but not the restorationist movement. A few years ago, I would have been offended for the same reasons as you, but people move on.
Please note that I did browse the 95 theses, as you suggested - you can't have a go at me for doing what you asked me!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I think it's time for one of my "L A Law" Hostly comments.
"Move along, Douglas".
An interesting diversion, but I wouldn't try too hard to unscramble the egg, whether you think it's on your face or someone else's. That way, madness lies.
In official terms, Purg guideline 3 says, "Stick to the Point". Not often invoked, but on this occasion I thought you might find it helpful.
B62, Purg Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
So just to round this off, is there anyone from Newfrontiers out there who can answer the OP?
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
So just to round this off, is there anyone from Newfrontiers out there who can answer the OP?
I had assumed that you *were* from new frontiers? In any case, the magazine article (which is actually expanded on in the entire issue) seems to be the only definitive communication on the matter according to people I know in NFI.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think Ramarius's church was an NFI one but the situation is now ambivalent - or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
The following is an extract from Terry Virgo's'A People Prepared', published in 1996. I am unsure if this is still accepted as the norm within NF. I could search through their NF magazines during 2009/2010 when they wrote about their values but then again I'm watching the football!!
"We can distinguish three classes of apostle in the NT. First of all there is Jesus 'the Apostle and High Priest of our confession (Heb 3 v1 NASB). Next there are 'the twelve'. Some feel this is the end of story, and that Paul was raised up by God to replace Judas. It is argued that we never hear of the hastily appointed Matthias again; but actually we never hear of many of the twelve again, and the Bible nowhere states that Paul was one of the twelve. He clearly distinguishes himself from them in 1 Corinthians 15 v 5-8...." P157
"One of the distinctive features of the apostle is that he is a master builder and foundation layer (1 Cor 3 v10) Paul did not regard his apostleship as a position in the church hierarchy..." P159/160
"The fact remains that if we are to see the tide turn in the the nations, we need to plant a great number of new churches... Such new churches are being planted today, motivated and overseen by apostolic ministry..." P164/5
"The modern apostle will be regarded by some as a simply a brother or a preacher, while to others he functions as an apostle. That presents no problem; it is not unlike the attitude Christians might have towards local pastor/teachers from other churches in their area. The uninvited apostle cannot impose his authority in other churches ; nor should it be his desire to do so. He will, however, happily respond to requests from church elders who reach out for his help." P165
The link below is a more up to date reasoning behind NF understanding of 'Apostles'. There is a list of names down one side and I recognise many of these as being considered holding this role and responsibility within NF. Otherwise there does not seem to be an 'official' list. I could be wrong through!!
Future of New Frontiers - NFI Magazine article
[Fixed code as I was passing - T]
[ 11. June 2012, 11:45: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
Otherwise there does not seem to be an 'official' list. I could be wrong through!
I very much doubt you will find one because of the consistent ducking and weaving on this issue, as I explained above. Terry is at it again in the example you link to.
quote:
Jesus called apostles. They began to gather communities. They built them up in health and sufficiency in Christ, and then moved on (...) The church should be integrated with the apostolic gift in order to reach the world.
The implication that the current leaders are apostles and to be recognised as such is deafening, but Terry steps back from calling a spade a spade, resorting instead to talking about churches being "integrated with the apostolic gift" - about as vague a phrase as one could hope for.
The result is a whole raft of insecurity which, I believe, is ultimately used to better exercise control. Nobody quite knows whether they are an apostle or not, and nobody will dare ask either.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The result is a whole raft of insecurity which, I believe, is ultimately used to better exercise control. Nobody quite knows whether they are an apostle or not, and nobody will dare ask either.
I wonder how much of the insecurity goes in the opposite direction - after all, it would prove to be quite problematic to 'De-Apostle' someone after the fact.
In any case, I'm not sure that the Apostle system can last the upcoming generational shift.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I don't think so either, especially given the lack of clarity surrounding the current handover.
That was the posit of my "NewFrontiers after Terry Virgo" thread.
In that case, though, I think many people will be happy to have all the charismatic/New Church bells and whistles without all the authoritarian overtones - something at least half-admitted by one NF leader I'm still close to.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Lev
Shipmate
# 50
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Posted
According to the book of Wikipedia, chapter 14:23-28
quote:
In April 2009, the Journal of Beliefs and Values published an article reporting on a 2007 study which "set out to examine the psychological type profile of Lead Elders within the Newfrontiers network of churches in the United Kingdom and to compare this profile with the established profile of clergymen in the Church of England". One of the conclusions is as follows:
"There is a toughness about this style of leadership that is unlikely to be distracted by opposition. The disadvantage is that this style of leadership can leave some individuals hurt and marginalised for what is seen by the leadership as the overall benefit to the organisation"
Wikipedia, chapter 14:23-28 Wikipedia, chapter 14:23-28
Posts: 304 | From: Brighton, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Lev
Shipmate
# 50
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Posted
Apologies for mucking up the link, but you get the idea.
I was a member of NFI for about 3-4 years and it really messed me up. I'm still an loyal Christian, but NFI doesn't do the reputation of the Church much good.
I would strongly advise against getting involved.
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Eutychus Posted: I don't think so either, especially given the lack of clarity surrounding the current handover.
Possibly! This maybe simply to do with the matter that the majority of Christians at 'street level' do not see this as a priority. Not much has changed as far as they are concerned. My parents church are about to move into a newly developed warehouse after being in a town community hall for the last 40 years. What is going on at NF HQ is way down their priority list.
In addition I reckon big changes will only take place once TV is no longer able to be active within whatever role he still assumes. Whether this is to frailty of age or he's gone to the heavenly realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Lev:
Apologies for mucking up the link, but you get the idea.
I was a member of NFI for about 3-4 years and it really messed me up. I'm still an loyal Christian, but NFI doesn't do the reputation of the Church much good.
I would strongly advise against getting involved.
Lev - I'm sorry your time at NF was a bad one for you. There's others here on this forum that have similar experiences to you but there are others like myself who had a good positive time within NF.
The topic of the link you provided has been discussed in various threads previously though.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
In that case, though, I think many people will be happy to have all the charismatic/New Church bells and whistles without all the authoritarian overtones - something at least half-admitted by one NF leader I'm still close to.
Hmm. While that might be the ultimate result - I think that the mid-term future may be a lot more stormy. ISTM that a lot of fairly authoritarian setups tend towards being the most chaotic and stormy when they are in their death throes.
The case of the International Church of Christ (aka 'The Boston Movement') is an instructive one. Generally things don't change until the difference between doctrine and praxis is such that things change fairly violently.
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
Why has no-one used the phrase "suck it and see" yet?
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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JJ
SDG
blog
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
Why has no-one used the phrase "suck it and see" yet?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
This is one of NewFrontiers' in-house phrases, of which there are many.
I don't think they've woken up to its more sordid connotations.
[ 12. June 2012, 12:06: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
Why has no-one used the phrase "suck it and see" yet?
Would you by any chance know by what means the new apostles were recognised?
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
As explained above, I'll bet a pound to a penny that no apostles were recognised as such by anybody in this development.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
As explained above, I'll bet a pound to a penny that no apostles were recognised as such by anybody in this development.
I'm not happy about naming a group of people but I think there is a good amount of assumption by a) the individuals that they are fulfilling the role of Apostolic Oversight and b) people in churches that a specific person has this role.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Perhaps, but the mechanism of how they got there is still about as obscure as Aaron's explanation of how the golden calf came into being. And why, if they are so hot on restoration, not call a spade a spade and an apostle an apostle?
The effect of having what are termed "flexible" or "fluid" teams and the occasional "rejig" keeps people in a perpetual state of insecurity about their position, and without a clear designation or recognition process, there is no proper way for people to be held to account. Meanwhile ex "apostolic oversighters" that have fallen from favour disappear down the memory hole as if they never existed.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
As explained above, I'll bet a pound to a penny that no apostles were recognised as such by anybody in this development.
Well, earlier in the thread Ramarius said that David Devenish was one of new UK sphere leaders. I know that he's already revered as an Apostle by the local NF church, and I wonder how many of the new appointees were simply 'apostles' to begin with?
I don't know how he's viewed in the UK, but Devenish is the man as far as the local branch is concerned. They'd follow him to hell and back if he wished.
If the other appointees have similar followings, that would mean that they've already established a certain amount of authority within the organization and people would more naturally fall in line behind them, TV could slip away a bit more quietly with such well-know authority figures to take his place.
On the other hand, it almost feels as if the Emperor is not long for the throne and the generals are trying to figure out how to divide the kingdom amongst themselves.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Nobody quite knows whether they are an apostle or not, and nobody will dare ask either.
I hope you'll excuse me for popping up from my hell thread (where I've been consigned to), but this reminds me of a conversation I once had with a Jehovahs Witness.
In this case, we were discussing their once yearly communion service, where only those that are counted amongst the 144 000 can drink from the cup. The same questions arose - how do they know who are of the 144 000? Who dares question it?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
Why has no-one used the phrase "suck it and see" yet?
Would you by any chance know by what means the new apostles were recognised?
Hi Drew I only know what's in the mags etc - no insider knowledge I'm afraid.
Leaving aside tussles about the terminology etc it feels, from where I'm sitting, a bit like we have three big diocese(s?) in the UK with a number of suffregans on the ground with local churches (on the whole - I don't know about Ramaruius situ pace Gamaliel) carrying on as normal. I'm wondering whether an Archbishop will emerge or we will develop into seperate but relating juristicions.
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JJ
SDG
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
[You haven't been consigned or confined to Hell, Mark. You're free to post anywhere else, subject only to the Ship's 10 Commandments. B62, Purg Host]
So far as JWs are concerned, my understanding is that those who drink from the cup are assured by authority that they will join the 144,000 provided they keep their nose clean. It's a prophetic act.
How they know that the authority they believe in can be trusted? Ah, that's an important question for JWs and NF-ers alike. The theory is that you've got specially chosen and authoritative leaders, trustworthy interpreters of the infallible Word (or the respective infallible Words), especially when it comes to matters of authority. Something which is also believed on authority.
Reminds me of Boxer in Animal Farm.
"Ah, if Comrade Napoleon says so, then it must be so".
He ended up in the knackers yard, of course.
[ 13. June 2012, 08:08: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
Hi Drew I only know what's in the mags etc - no insider knowledge I'm afraid.
Leaving aside tussles about the terminology etc it feels, from where I'm sitting, a bit like we have three big diocese(s?) in the UK with a number of suffregans on the ground with local churches (on the whole - I don't know about Ramaruius situ pace Gamaliel) carrying on as normal. I'm wondering whether an Archbishop will emerge or we will develop into seperate but relating juristicions.
Hi Twangist,
It's good to have your input, because I see you're from NF. The rest of us are probably outsiders or ex-members, but it is good to hear from someone who is currently involved in the church. I know I'm sometimes critical, but other times I can at least empathise with where TV and NF are coming from.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Does this mean that any Tom, Dick or Harry (Terry Virgo for example) can decide the churches have got it all wrong, and found their own "church"?
Borderline irrelevant historical point, I don't think Terry Virgo did found his own church. He was invited to be a minister at an existing church under another chief pastor, and it evolved into what became Christ the King Church later.
Though maybe your scare quotes round "church" are meant to imply that you are not talking about his church at all - that is the assembly of Christians of which he is or was a minister - but a connexion of churches.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I don't know how he's viewed in the UK, but Devenish is the man as far as the local branch is concerned. They'd follow him to hell and back if he wished.
I'm sure that's true, but in my experience NF never actually applies the term "apostle" to its own.
The authority is definitely there, but I am convinced that their reluctance to use the term outright is a) a cloak of false humility which also serves to fend off any challenges: "well, we never actually claimed to be apostles, so..." b) a means of highlighting a culture of informality rather than the authoritarian principles on which it has been set up (since "apostle" in this world has a lot to do with apostolic authority over other people).
To pick up on ken's point, it's one of the more embarrassing holes in Terry Virgo's CV that he has never actually planted a church of his own - widely regarded as one of the defining characteristics of apostles.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mark Betts
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# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Does this mean that any Tom, Dick or Harry (Terry Virgo for example) can decide the churches have got it all wrong, and found their own "church"?
Borderline irrelevant historical point, I don't think Terry Virgo did found his own church. He was invited to be a minister at an existing church under another chief pastor, and it evolved into what became Christ the King Church later.
Though maybe your scare quotes round "church" are meant to imply that you are not talking about his church at all - that is the assembly of Christians of which he is or was a minister - but a connexion of churches.
Thanks for the info Ken. The quotes around "church" simply indicate that some would question whether such a church (the one which Tom, Dick or Harry built) is a real church. But, granted, maybe this isn't the case with Terry Virgo.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
In my experience, very few of the restorationist 'apostles' actually planted very many churches from scratch. Certainly not as many as they claimed.
There were instances of the decanting of people from one city to another and a church springing up around them, some of which have continued to this day. But in the early days, at least, it was more a case of accepting existing groups 'into relationship'.
NFI have probably been the most successful, numerically, in terms of church-planting but much of the growth has come from transfers or people moving house to be part of the new plant etc.
The same thing seems to be the case in any church plant within any tradition.
Of course, church plants are always a joint-effort and not generally the work of any one individual, but in the restorationist 'stream' I was involved with the church-planting aspect was pretty sporadic and patchy. Although some quite large churches did arise from these activities - at least for a time.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The quotes around "church" simply indicate that some would question whether such a church (the one which Tom, Dick or Harry built) is a real church. But, granted, maybe this isn't the case with Terry Virgo.
Yes, but who gave you the power to decide who else can call themselves a church? The idea is ridiculous. The spiritualist church is a church - not one I have any sympathy for or agreement with whatsoever, but it is a church as defined in law nonetheless.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Mark Betts
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# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Yes, but who gave you the power to decide who else can call themselves a church? The idea is ridiculous. The spiritualist church is a church - not one I have any sympathy for or agreement with whatsoever, but it is a church as defined in law nonetheless.
I have no power whatsoever to decide what is a church and what isn't. I didn't even say that I didn't call it a church - just that some might question it. That isn't an opinion, it is just a fact.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
I would imagine that people who don't believe that Protestant churches are really churches already know that without help from punctuation marks.
[ 13. June 2012, 14:45: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Irish_Lord99 posted: Well, earlier in the thread Ramarius said that David Devenish was one of new UK sphere leaders. I know that he's already revered as an Apostle by the local NF church, and I wonder how many of the new appointees were simply 'apostles' to begin with?
quote:
Eutychus posted: The authority is definitely there, but I am convinced that their reluctance to use the term outright is a) a cloak of false humility which also serves to fend off any challenges: "well, we never actually claimed to be apostles, so..." b) a means of highlighting a culture of informality rather than the authoritarian principles on which it has been set up (since "apostle" in this world has a lot to do with apostolic authority over other people).
Whatever the reason NF have for not publishing a list of 'Apostles' within their ranks I do not agree that it is to do with having a false humility or any other 'sinister' reasoning. With having family still in NF churches they are pretty clear who has specific apostle oversight in their different regions. There's no confusion at the local church level.
I would suggest that most people within the local church see their regional 'Apostle' as someone who supports and encourages the local leadership and not any kind of puppet master.
quote:
To pick up on ken's point, it's one of the more embarrassing holes in Terry Virgo's CV that he has never actually planted a church of his own - widely regarded as one of the defining characteristics of apostles.
That's not strictly correct. TV was instrumental in the planting of the first NF church outside of his role within Brighton. That church was my home church and in the village where I grew up and is where he first met Nigel Ring.
What followed was something along the lines that Gamaliel explains in his post.
I remember in the 90's that NF spent a lot of time planting small teams in places like Manchester that started life as a house church. These have grown into much bigger congregations that have planted other churches. Similar work was done in Bedford with Dave Devenish.
Not sure why it would be embarrassing on his CV. St Paul hardly did any baptisms and no-one is bothered by that.
quote:
Barnabas62 posted: that's an important question for JWs and NF-ers alike
Not a very fair comparison IMO.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Polly, I think JWs are further down the "heterodox" road than NF (though I think TV is pretty heterodox about Eph 4 - at least as far as I understand him).
But my comment related more to ecclesiology than soundness of faith.
Wine and bottles?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mark Betts
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# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Polly, I think JWs are further down the "heterodox" road than NF (though I think TV is pretty heterodox about Eph 4 - at least as far as I understand him).
I hope I am not pushing things too far with what I'm about to say, but to the Orthodox, we'd normally talk of NF as being heterodox, whereas JWs would be heretical (to us) because they don't believe in the Holy Trinity.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
For once I agree with Mark Betts. Finally a post of his worth reading.
Mentioning NF in the same breath as groups like the JWs is pretty offensive (to both, actually).
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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