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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: New Frontiers new apostolic spheres
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CSL1
Shipmate
# 17168
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Posted
quote:
The problem in this case was that someone came along to catechesis with no intention of becoming Orthodox - he just wanted a debate about the merits of baptist theology verses the merits of Orthodoxy.[/QB]
That's just bad form. Sounds like the type I've occasionally run across: On a Mission, itching for confrontation, oft full of themselves, martyr complex, etc. Usually get over themselves by middle age.
Posts: 172 | Registered: Jun 2012
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CSL1
Shipmate
# 17168
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
As yet I have not heard back from New Frontiers on how much Terry Virgo is paid. (Nor Mark Driscoll from contacting Mars Hill either).
So I'm supposed to turn up at their churches, empty ten percent of my wages into their coffers and not have a clue how much goes into their wages, because they are so anointed that to even dare to ask the question is a sign of rebelliousness?
I can think of no other walk of life where this level of trust is demanded. Personally I think Christians should stop being naive. Transparent accounts or no donations. I do not believe God told them to make their salary top secret.
I'm an attorney by trade, now teach law at a university, have also taught accounting. In principle, these churches are asking their member-"shareholders" to invest assets without making disclosures essential to the investment decision. While not technically illegal, in my opinion it's unethical--and, of course, they have fools for shareholders!
At the New Frontiers church I attended, at first we had checks and balances. A young man working through an MBA and a middle aged fellow who was a CPA (same as Brit Chartered Accountant) and CFO of a non-profit for his day job were in charge of finances.
But then the Head Elder jettisoned them and took over. This was never announced to the church, it wasn't even revealed in the elder's meetings. He also discontinued support of the church's missionary-seminarian, whom he had promised from the pulpit in an elaborate Sending Out Ceremony the church would support throughout his academic career--again, never announced, never discussed even in elder's meetings. As an elder, I only found out when the very young "Yes Man" elder let it slip in a private conversation.
There were evidently only three people who knew of this changing of the guard and withdrawal of support prior to the Yes Man's slip of the tongue: Head Elder, his right hand man on the elder's team (whom I called The Enforcer because of his fierce loyalty to head elder and his huge muscles), and young Yes Man. The rest of the elder team, all half dozen of us, were kept completely in the dark (perhaps we were only there for show to "prove" the checks and balances).
At this church, if you revealed something they wanted kept secret, Head Elder would sometimes tell you you'd be "Serving Satan" by so doing, so I can only imagine he did everything he could to hush the outsted financial team and the defunded seminarian. I know it took some time for them to finally confess in private what had happened. When I confronted Head Elder and The Enforcer with what I'd discovered, they were furious: "WHO told you that?"
What bothered me was not so much that they would go back on a public promise of financial support and oust the original financial team, but that they'd do it, then do everything possible to conceal it while continuing to solicit donations each week. If they'd only revealed everything, people could have made informed decisions.
Posts: 172 | Registered: Jun 2012
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
Just got this back from New Frontiers. Asked for Terry Virgo's salary. Got this ! (No reply from Mars Hill yet).
Thanks for your email to Newfrontiers. I'm afraid I do not have the information you request. Leaders in Newfrontiers churches are employed by their churches and as such we don't hold salary information. Due to our data protection policy I'm not sure I would be able to divulge such information even if I had it.
Many thanks,
xxxxxx xxxxxxxxx
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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The Undiscovered Country
Shipmate
# 4811
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Posted
Just come rather late to this thread. Sorry, haven't been here for a long time! A number of NewFrontiers churches tie leaders' salaries to teachers' salaries within schools.
I'll have a read through the rest of this thread later today!
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man adapts the world to himself. Therefore all hope of progress rests with the unreasonable man.
Posts: 1216 | From: Belfast | Registered: Aug 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Welcome back! It's been a long time!
quote:
Originally posted by The Undiscovered Country:
A number of NewFrontiers churches tie leaders' salaries to teachers' salaries within schools.
This information is in fact already here, buried back on about page 4, here. Enjoy your read ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
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Posted
I see that the admirable David Devenish has launched his 'new' apostolic sphere with a branded identity and a conference in 2013.
A conspiracy theorist may attach some significance to this conference being held on the Stoneleigh show ground, home for many years of the premier Newfrontiers annual corporate event. I'm personally more inclined to see this as a practical proposition for what is hoped to be an event for 4000 delegates.
Perhaps some clarity around other regional spheres will begin to emerge on the back of this move.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Sep 2011
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
Not another conference. Boy to these people love conferences. Do the leaders actually do much other than fly around the world attending conferences ?
Seems a nice jolly to me. Big salary, little or no accountability to the congregation, and frequent trips abroad to listen to the party line.
Of course they all have to have the official charismatic smiley face picture. Give me a grumpy but genuine git any day !
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Apologies for double-post, just followed the link. "Continue to press into all that God has promised ...". Fox ache, what an overblown euphemism for "Plod on with life doing the same old same old".
I'n not sure I could cope with a life that was constantly so full of joyous excitement I had a permanent shit-eating grin welded to my face.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
quote:
I'n not sure I could cope with a life that was constantly so full of joyous excitement I had a permanent shit-eating grin welded to my face.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Absolutely. I joked with my wife that the endless church banners showing glowing ecstatic people were very discriminatory towards grumpy middle aged men, and lacked diversity.
Far better to drop the mask and be honest. Much less stressful than the pressure outfits like NF can put on people. I'm glad I left. Oh bugger - they just made me smile !
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
In my NF days I once noticed (I can't for the life of me remember how) that the head of an ecstatic blonde had been photoshopped onto the body of some other worshipper in quite a prominent ad for Stoneleigh. I asked somebody about it but the reason was not forthcoming.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
I'n not sure I could cope with a life that was constantly so full of joyous excitement I had a permanent shit-eating grin welded to my face.
Has gone in the Quotes File...
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Looks like those in the ranks are not sure whether this is a "breakup" or "the family growing up and leaving home". But apparently there is no longer any event attended by all these leaders. Read more here: The Emperor's New Frontiers.
[ 12. September 2012, 11:38: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
So; New Apostolic Sphere = Patriarchate
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
Interesting that none of the life group would know who the 'sphere leaders' are. So much for accountability...
Posts: 433 | Registered: Apr 2009
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
So; New Apostolic Sphere = Patriarchate
Where did that come from? I briefly skimmed through the (very boring) article, but I couldn't see anything like that.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Looks like those in the ranks are not sure whether this is a "breakup" or "the family growing up and leaving home". But apparently there is no longer any event attended by all these leaders. Read more here: The Emperor's New Frontiers.
Interesting that leaders will develop their own "doctrinal distinctives." Virgo's an interesting character. Depending who you talk to he's either Papa Terry head of the NF Mafia or the Blessed Virgo full of grace. Have to see how his sons and grandsons turn out.
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
Does this new structure lead to more accountability or less ?
It looks confused to me. Maybe its supposed to be. I just wish they'd go away. I'm still in recovery from their crappy and abusive theology.
Our local NF minister is continually traveling to NF overseas thousands of miles away to see his 'apostle'. Must be costing a fortune. Of course the congregation didn't get a say in it or the appointment of the 'apostle'. They're just supposed to 'submit to the vision' and shut up.
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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The Undiscovered Country
Shipmate
# 4811
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Posted
An explanation of what the new apostolic spheres mean in practice can be found at; http://www.christcentralchurches.org/ in the item labelled 'Jeremy Simpkins-Christ Central'.
(Incidentally the 2nd David Devenish preach-God's plan to change the world part 2' also has a really interesting exposition on how Christians should inter-act with arts and culture .)
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man adapts the world to himself. Therefore all hope of progress rests with the unreasonable man.
Posts: 1216 | From: Belfast | Registered: Aug 2003
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