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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Internet Porn
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
This is a spin-off from the masturbation thread.
There have been innumerable articles on the prevalence of porn-viewing (and even alleged porn-addiction) amongst Christians, both clergy and laity.
If, as the old saying goes, ninety per cent of men admit to masturbating and the other ten per cent are lying, then could the same could be said about porn-watching?
What is wrong with porn?
I believe that it is wrong (eg degradation of women, affectless sex) but could only articulate my objections up to a certain point.
For example, I know that cartoon porn showing loving respectful interaction would be wrong, but I’m not sure I could explain why.
Next, is porn addictive, or is this just a cop-out?
There has been a steady stream of claims that it is, and that it alters the brain in some way.
On the face of it the case seems persuasive, but most of us are in no position to assess it, so it would be interesting to hear the opinions of Shipmates with some sort of physiological, bio-chemical, neurological or whatever expertise.
And assuming we believe it to be wrong, what is the best way of dealing with it?
In evangelical circles, at least, there has been a lot of emphasis on men’s accountability groups as a useful strategy.
I could be easily tempted to look at porn, but don’t, because my son looks after my computer, and I would be embarrassed to have him find dodgy material on it next time he works on it.
That might not sound very spiritual or theological, but could be regarded as providential!
Finally, I have been assuming that this is primarily a male issue, but I could be assuming wrong.
[ 01. December 2012, 10:51: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Some very interesting points there. I was involved in the feminist movement in the 80s (I am a bloke also), and the movement was torn apart by the anti-porn debates.
One thing that struck me, articulated very well at the time by Linda Williams in her book 'Hard Core' was that nobody had a clue what porn was about. Well, correction, some people were very certain that they knew what porn was about, but others disagreed quite strongly.
At the time, feminism was half in love with psychoanalysis, and analytic discussions of porn stressed its fantasy nature, and hence, the difficulty of saying what it meant.
I still feel confused over all this. But being confused is probably about right.
I'm not sure about 'wrong'. Is affectless sex wrong? Dunno. Is wanking wrong? The analysts in the movement (there were some) used to say that there were two problems with it - those who couldn't, and those who couldn't stop. Rather pragmatic! Sorry, I realize this isn't a wanking thread, but one thing leads to another!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Leaving aside po-facedness, I think it's reasonable to look at a couple of objective dangers or porn.
1. It encourages us to covet. As the great theologian Hannibal Lecter pointed out (in "Silence of the Lambs") coveting is about what you see and haven't got and want for yourself. So it's that kind of temptation.
2. It encourages us to objectify other people. Objectifying reduces somebody else to a kind of commodity, and gives us the idea that sexual relationships are a form of consumption, rather like a meal. I reckon that's doubly demeaning.
I'm not sure if men's desires are more likely than women's to be triggered visually. I've heard it argued that there is a kind of gender difference there.
I think pornography may be addictive for some folks. But if it is, it must be acting as some kind of ongoing compensation for an ongoing "lack". I guess we are set up for all forms of covetousness if we have a sense that "something is missing".
I give it a wide berth.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Finally, I have been assuming that this is primarily a male issue, but I could be assuming wrong.
50 shades of Grey?
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I'm not sure that E L James encourages wanking amongst women. Her 'novels'' appeal is perhaps more the old story of a powerful yet damaged man being 'saved' by the love of a good woman. It's Jane Eyre with spanking.
[ 21. August 2012, 09:14: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Somebody could make a tasteless joke here, along the lines of 'not waving but drowning', so:
'not wanking, just spanking'.
But should we be making a moral discrimination here?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, again I remember in the 80s, this caused some consternation amongst anti-porn feminists. What, women are making/watching the damn stuff?
Solutions ranged from defining that as not-porn, since it was for nice cuddly warm women, not nasty men, with their objectifying tendencies, to attacking the women who did make/watch porn, to moving on to the next part of the agenda, chairperson, please.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Sorry to keep going on about the 80s, but the debates were intense.
The other thing I remember vividly was the huge number of unsupported assertions that flew about. Porn is obviously about X, or Y, or Z.
So you would ask: how do you know this? Well, how do you?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
However, there is a lot of porn/erotica (porn for nice people) written both by and for women.
Anais Nin springs to mind in my loins, as it were.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
A common criticism of porn is that it encourages objectification.
Here is an unsupported assertion. OK, where is the evidence for that?
Second, where is the argument that objectification of a sexual nature is always wrong? Maybe some part of the sex act involves that, and it is OK?
You know, I just like my wife's body sometimes. She has nice tits, etc.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Matariki
Shipmate
# 14380
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Posted
Another common criticism is that of power imbalance. Yes there are porn actresses and actors who will talk about how empowered they are but, as with any form of sex work, there are those who have very little power. Also we are aware of the toll of addiction and mental illness among porn actresses and actors. There is of course the trap of false expectation in that porn offers unrealistic images of both women and men. I am no prude, yet at the end of the day to reduce a human being to nothing more than a photo spread or a movie clip to get me off seems a bit sad and grubby.
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"Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accompanied alone; therefore we are saved by love." Reinhold Niebuhr.
Posts: 298 | From: Just across the Shire from Hobbiton | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
I've got no interest in porn, because it all seems fake to me, degrades all of us to mere wild animals and is usually in one way or another exploitative.
I'm not a complete saint, of course, and my temptation is more likely glamour and mild erotica. But I know that just because it isn't explicit doesn't make it right.
Every day we all have to wrestle with sin, and the worst thing we can do is try to kid ourselves that what we are doing is not technically a sin and try to justify ourselves.
quote:
from 1662 Prayer Book
...the Scripture moveth us in sundry places to acknowledge and confess our manifold sins and wickedness; and that we should not disassemble nor cloke them before the face of Almighty God our Heavenly Father; but confess them with an humble, lowly, penitent and obedient heart; to the end that we may obtain forgiveness of the same, by his infinite goodness and mercy...
[ 21. August 2012, 10:21: Message edited by: Mark Betts ]
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
However, there is a lot of porn/erotica (porn for nice people) written both by and for women.
Anais Nin springs to mind in my loins, as it were.
I was in a prayer meeting once at which an old man asked God (with what efficacy I am unable to say) to prevent any "warming of the loins" as a result of the interaction of young people of both sexes in the church youth group.
[ 21. August 2012, 10:23: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
You know, Kaplan, I wasn't around in Brethren or conservative (non-charismatic) circles for very long but I certainly miss the way those guys spoke and prayed ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yet warming of the loins is healthy, isn't it? Of course, it depends on how you use that warming, but the warming in itself is OK. And, it's fun.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You know, Kaplan, I wasn't around in Brethren or conservative (non-charismatic) circles for very long but I certainly miss the way those guys spoke and prayed ...
"Laid to one side on his bed of sickness while having to carry on with just a few sisters."
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I can give anecdote, which we all know is not data, about the objectification that comes from porn.
One of the teenage boys I was working this year watched a lot of porn and his attitudes to women was very much regarding them as sex objects. He would stare at the girl in his group and come out with comments like "nice tits" and a whole lot more without any realisation that this was totally inappropriate. There were other issues around his home situation, but he isn't the only teenager I've seen with this attitude and porn addiction.
Chatting to this lad (I spent a lot of time working with him one to one as he wasn't capable of working appropriately in a mixed group) he said the link in his mind was the porn he'd been watching before he came in.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, sure, I can give anecdotes about people who use porn for great fun and laughter, but so what?
This is what I mean by unsupported assertions. For some reason, the porn debates are riddled with it. I knew someone who used porn, and he was horrible to his wife! Ooh, that is really powerful evidence.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Lord Jestocost
Shipmate
# 12909
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yet warming of the loins is healthy, isn't it? Of course, it depends on how you use that warming, but the warming in itself is OK. And, it's fun.
Plus sperm are very sensitive to increases in temperature, so it's a handy form of contraception. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 761 | From: The Instrumentality of Man | Registered: Aug 2007
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Its all unsupported because nobody professionally is going to admit they watch/read this stuff.
But the anecdotal evidence about what free internet porn is doing to young male expectations of women is rather strong.
Porn is killing sex, it seems.
Waiting for proof isn't going to help.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
But the anecdotal evidence about what free internet porn is doing to young male expectations of women is rather strong.
OK you've made an assertion. It doesn't sound like an unreasonable assertion. I'm willing to be convinced by a good theory. Don't leave us in suspense give us the actual argument for this.
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
I believe porn can be addictive, in the same way that many things can. Shopping, eating certain foods (or just eating in general), and many other things are, or can be, addictive.
I'm uncertain about this next point. But I seem to remember reading once that eating a piece of chocolate or buying something new at the store releases serotonin and/or dopamine (I'm fuzzy on which), which is the happiness buzz we feel. Porn can do the same thing. And that buzz is addictive.
But even without the buzz (and even if I'm completely out in left field on it), porn is addictive, in part, because it is easy. There is no commitment to another person. There is no question about the other person's needs. There is porn to suit any fantasy or fetish or kink. It is also instant; I have merely to open a new tab and a few keystrokes or clicks later I'm viewing porn.
I'm sure there's much more to it than that. But that's a start.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Og, why might porn be "killing sex"? Isn't it more likely to lead to folk having increased sex?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Kaplan Corday: I believe that it is wrong (eg degradation of women, affectless sex) but could only articulate my objections up to a certain point.
Within my objections, I also include some concerns about the men and women who are photographed/filmed for porn. I haven't studied this much, but I'm not convinced that this is 100% voluntary.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
But the anecdotal evidence about what free internet porn is doing to young male expectations of women is rather strong.
OK you've made an assertion. It doesn't sound like an unreasonable assertion. I'm willing to be convinced by a good theory. Don't leave us in suspense give us the actual argument for this.
If you want evidence for another kind of argument, there is at least one psychologist who believes that the reason porn is harmful is not because of male expectations, but rather because it can become a form of addiction arousal:
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/23/health/living-well/demise-of-guys/index.html
There's a certain amount of correlation rather than causation going on with some of his arguments, but if we strip out all the emotive arguments about a 'demise' then essentially its the same as the arguments that Nicholas Carr and others have been making.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I don't think people make unsupported assertions about porn because they don't want to admit to seeing it. After all, if they did admit to it, and described its effect on them, that would just another anecdote. Since my wife and I began using porn, our sexual antics have increased by 37%! Yay!
I think it's just because it's a nice fat juicy topic, which every man and his dog loves to pontificate about.
I'm not decrying that either. I think pontificating is rather like porn, it's fun, it makes you want more, and so on.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yet warming of the loins is healthy, isn't it? Of course, it depends on how you use that warming, but the warming in itself is OK. And, it's fun.
Plus sperm are very sensitive to increases in temperature, so it's a handy form of contraception.
You can get arrested for coming in handy in that context.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
... degrades all of us to mere wild animals ,,,
Bzzzt. Wrong. In point of fact, humans are almost unique in the animal kingdom in that we have sex when conception is unlikely or impossible. Unlike nearly all animals, we have sex all the fucking time. Animals usually have sex only during the breeding season. Animals don't generally sit around all day watching other pairs doing it and wanking. Animals don't paw-paint pictures or tell stories about last year's rut.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I can give anecdote, which we all know is not data, about the objectification that comes from porn.
One of the teenage boys I was working this year watched a lot of porn and his attitudes to women was very much regarding them as sex objects. He would stare at the girl in his group and come out with comments like "nice tits" and a whole lot more without any realisation that this was totally inappropriate. There were other issues around his home situation, but he isn't the only teenager I've seen with this attitude and porn addiction.
Chatting to this lad (I spent a lot of time working with him one to one as he wasn't capable of working appropriately in a mixed group) he said the link in his mind was the porn he'd been watching before he came in.
Degrading to women? It looks like it was the boy who was degraded to me.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's also a bit odd to talk of being 'degraded' to a wild animal, isn't it? I find wild animals rather magnificent really, not degraded at all.
Oh I get it, it's a Christian thing, wild animals equals unbridled lust, equals sin, equals you're fucked. Well, maybe you're not fucked!
But as the last but one poster kindly pointed out, wild animals don't have unbridled lust at all.
Ah, I'm old now, but I still remember it!
"but once in special,
In thin array after a pleasant guise,
When her loose gown from her shoulders did fall,
And she me caught in her arms long and small;
Therewithall sweetly did me kiss
And softly said, “Dear heart, how like you this?"
[ 21. August 2012, 15:30: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It's the link pornography may well have to carrying out behaviour that troubles me. Hence anti-child pornography laws; at least there the authorities are making a link. Why would porn not be thought linked to other sexual behaviour? I do know that physicians deal with many more oral/throat infections of sexually transmitted diseases, and also disruption to anal tissues, which are at least partly attributable to pornography having raised the frequency of oral and anal sexual behaviour, with oral being pretty much ubiquitous now, when it was a low frequency.
Pornography would also seem to suggest that coitus interruptus (ejaculation outside of the vagina) has increased also, though I've not seen stats to show if this translates to sexual behaviour in the general population. This point leads me to one of the major problems. It certainly seems like ejaculating on a woman's face is degrading. I'm also troubled by terms like "MILF" which I understand means "mother I'd like to f---", "friends with benefits", BBW (which I think means "big butt women"), and other such terms, which seem to remove the human from the depiction.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's also a bit odd to talk of being 'degraded' to a wild animal, isn't it? I find wild animals rather magnificent really, not degraded at all.
They are! But you missed the point entirely. I wasn't talking about wild animals being degraded, I was talking about humans degrading themselves by trying to imitate them.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
BBW (which I think means "big butt women")
I believe it can also refer to the specific ethnic makeup of an interracial threesome.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Point of clarification on "BBW" - in the contexts I've seen it, it was actually moderately affirmative, in that it was "Big Beautiful Women". Only moderately affirmative, because it was still in the context of flogging images to blokes to crack one off to.
Also, I'm aware these things can change. I still have to do a double-take every time one of the yoof at church posts "FTW!" on Facebook. When I was growing up, it certainly didn't mean "for the win" ...
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Is erotic writing different morally speaking to filmed/animated pornography? The former is widespread amongst women, both reading and writing it (see fanfiction - 50 Shades Of Grey was originally Twilight fanfiction after all) and used to be extremely common amongst men before film was invented. Even Shakespeare had his filthy moments.
Interestingly, John Donne (a 17th Century poet of whom I am very fond) seems to go between erotic and religious poetry, with apparently no problem.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
Point of clarification on "BBW" - in the contexts I've seen it, it was actually moderately affirmative, in that it was "Big Beautiful Women". Only moderately affirmative, because it was still in the context of flogging images to blokes to crack one off to.
Also, I'm aware these things can change. I still have to do a double-take every time one of the yoof at church posts "FTW!" on Facebook. When I was growing up, it certainly didn't mean "for the win" ...
The BBW thing is interesting. I'm a (self-identifying) fat woman involved in fat activism and generally places that identify as for BBW tend to be like you describe, and have nothing to do with the politics of empowering women.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's also a bit odd to talk of being 'degraded' to a wild animal, isn't it? I find wild animals rather magnificent really, not degraded at all.
They are! But you missed the point entirely. I wasn't talking about wild animals being degraded, I was talking about humans degrading themselves by trying to imitate them.
Well, young man, when I am betaken with wild lust, which unfortunately, with advancing years, is less than of yore, I am not trying to imitate anyone, thank you kindly. I have my own wild lust as a kind of splendid plenitude. And the wife, she say, oh, well on, or in fact, sometimes she says, well 'ard.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
quote:
Pornography would also seem to suggest that coitus interruptus (ejaculation outside of the vagina) has increased also, though I've not seen stats to show if this translates to sexual behaviour in the general population.
Illustrative of many of the points on this thread - there are many assertions, but little evidence!
quote:
It certainly seems like ejaculating on a woman's face is degrading.
What about doing so on a man's face? All of the above discussion seems to avoid any discussion of gay porn. Is that degrading to men? Is it degrading to women?
Surely it is also entirely subjective as to what is and isn't degrading. If we're talking about private sexual behaviour between consenting adults in the privacy of their own homes then what counts as degrading? What might be degrading to one person would not be to another. What about bondage/SM? [Another post]
I feel another of the those irregular verbs coming along.
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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Matariki
Shipmate
# 14380
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Posted
iamchristianhearmeroar, I last saw straight porn when it was passed around furtively at school when I was 14. I have seen gay porn rather more recently than that and yes I think it can be as exploitative of its actors.
What has changed of course since I was 14 (some 32 years ago) and now is the proliferation of porn via the internet and how anyone can put their own image or the image of a sexual partner out there for the world to admire and get off on. Whether this is exploitative is perhaps a lesser question than is this wise. Generally not I would have thought.
[ 21. August 2012, 17:43: Message edited by: Matariki ]
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"Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accompanied alone; therefore we are saved by love." Reinhold Niebuhr.
Posts: 298 | From: Just across the Shire from Hobbiton | Registered: Dec 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
If I put my image online it might put people off porn.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Yes, again I remember in the 80s, this caused some consternation amongst anti-porn feminists. What, women are making/watching the damn stuff?
Solutions ranged from defining that as not-porn, since it was for nice cuddly warm women, not nasty men, with their objectifying tendencies, to attacking the women who did make/watch porn, to moving on to the next part of the agenda, chairperson, please.
From what I've seen, current feminism tends to just sort of wish the problem away with euphemistic phrases meant to obscure the issue.
I recall one discussion where someone pointed out the greater tolerance for, if not interest in, pOrn among women in the last twenty or so years. The feminist in the debate replied with "Well, yes, the discussion about p0rnogrpahy has changed". Which, as far as I can tell, is just an avasive way of saying "We couldn't even convince women of our position".
I came of age politically at a time when opposition to pornography was considered de rigeur in left-wing and feminist circles, and have pretty clear memories of the ideological shift, which took place some time in the early to mid 90s. This corresponded with Madonna's Sex book and the appearance of Camille Paglia on the public stage(though most left-wingers would be loath to admit any influence from the latter figure).
I think the internet put the final nail in the coffin, by placing the opportunity to view the stuff within easier reach then ever before. You can't really criticize something that you yourself have looked at for recreational purposes(as opposed to just checking to see how bad it is), and the internet made it apparent that the only reason more people WEREN'T looking at p0rn was that they lacked easy and discrete access.
I used to read a lot of femininst anti-p0rn writing from the 70s/80s, and one impression I got was that the feminist analysis was driven to a large degree by a reaction against the behaviour of left-wing men in the post-60s counterculture, who were seen as using the rehtoric of sexual liberation as a cover for harassing behaviour.
Robin Morgan's 1970 essay Goodbye To All That, an angry missive against New Left men and their values. Morgan wrote a sequel in 2008, attacking Obama supporters and praising Hillary Clinton. Which I suppose might indicate something about where the politics of that particular stream of feminism have gone.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
I haven't reviewed the literature in a few years, but if something major and new had come out, I suspect it would have been all over the media. In spite of diligent efforts, about the only negative effect that has been convincingly linked to pornography is that, in the case of men who are already predisposed to higher than average sexual aggression, it seems to increase sexual aggression slightly but significantly. This does not seem to lead to higher levels of sexual violence overall, since in pretty much all societies where porn becomes more available, sexual violence decreases at the same time.
From this article by Dr. Marty Klein:
quote:
The plural of “anecdote” is not “data.”
But people who believe that America is loaded with victims of porn have no data. All they have is anecdotes...
There has never been a validated scientific study showing that adults who use porn are more likely to engage in antisocial behavior than adults who don’t use porn...
In America’s thousands of professional publications and scientific proceedings, there is no peer-reviewed data showing that access to sexual imagery harms kids...
And so on--the article is not a scientific review, it's more of a polemic, but Klein is a serious professional sex therapist who knows his stuff.
Objecting to porn on moral grounds is fine, but quite distinct from claiming it's harmful--the evidence for the latter is negligible.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
This is a spin-off from the masturbation thread.
What is wrong with porn?
Next, is porn addictive, or is this just a cop-out?
I could be easily tempted to look at porn .
Just picking out a few points .
The thing that is wrong with porn is that it decentralizes love . Providing one is aware of that there isn't anything inherently wrong with it IMO.
Viewing it can be addictive , like many other activities, so it's simply a case of *user beware*.
As for Christians becoming addicted to porn, I've heard it said that Christian worship can sometimes lead to increased sexual energy. So again we need to be aware of our vulnerable condition.
I too could easily be tempted to view porn . The voice in the head says 'it could be healthy' . I counter it with the view that it is in some way wrong , even though I can't readily say why this is so.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Sex-positive feminism is actually largely in favour of porn, it just objects to the current mainstream porn industry. In favour of female-made porn which shows female fantasies etc.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I'm not sure that E L James encourages wanking amongst women. Her 'novels'' appeal is perhaps more the old story of a powerful yet damaged man being 'saved' by the love of a good woman. It's Jane Eyre with spanking.
Erm, you might want to check with a few of your friends (of both genders) but a lot of people would find "Jane Eyre with spanking" eminently wankable-to.
Ahem.
I've said this before (though it was several name-change amnesties ago) but I'm slightly suspicious of the claim that porn is addictive. I think it probably is for some people. However my personal experience is that it seemed addictive when I believed that it was wrong. When I was a GLE I definitely felt I had a problem with porn and that it was "addictive" to me. When I ceased to be so, and I could indulge whenever I felt like it, it suddenly seemed less of an issue and though I did look at it occasionally it no longer felt like it was such a compulsion. So was I really addicted or was I just reacting against a restriction?
That said, I've seen credible reports that it's genuinely addictive for others, but I wanted to add my anecdata-point.
Also I can't pretend that most porn isn't problematic, to say the least, in its production. Exploitation of vulnerable individuals etc. That I mainly indulge in the written word means I get to dodge this issue but I do still feel it, I assure you.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
Long gone are the days when a dirty old man in a raincoat used to shuffle out of the newsagents with magazines (such as "Mayfair") concealed in a brown paper bag!
It reminds me of a sketch from the Two Ronnies, where the newsagent offered to put the man's books in a bag, which had emblazoned on it in large letters "Porno Filth!" ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
...but does that count as "porn" in today's climate?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
...but does that count as "porn" in today's climate?
Are you asking if Mayfair counts as p0rn? From what I recall of it in its glory days(it was the best p0rn mag, imho), yes, I'd certainly say so. Not on the highly explict or kinky end of the spectrum, but then, neither are Playboy or Penthouse.
quote:
It reminds me of a sketch from the Two Ronnies, where the newsagent offered to put the man's books in a bag, which had emblazoned on it in large letters "Porno Filth!"
"How much for this copy of Orgasm?"
(Assuming this is the right scene. It's blocked on You Tube, and I'm not signed up. This played on prime-time TV when I was a kid, but today's youth apparently need to be protected from seeing it on the internet.)
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
I don't think it was the two Ronnies - it was "Not the Nine O'Clock News" - I couldn't find it on youtube, but obviously I didn't spend too much time searching!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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