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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Internet Porn
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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A propos of nothing, Stetson, why do you write 'p0rn'?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Mark Betts

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I've found it! [Smile] Check clip at around 01:18

The Best of Not the Nine O'Clock News episode 13

...featuring a very young Rowan Atkinson.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's also a bit odd to talk of being 'degraded' to a wild animal, isn't it? I find wild animals rather magnificent really, not degraded at all.

They are! But you missed the point entirely. I wasn't talking about wild animals being degraded, I was talking about humans degrading themselves by trying to imitate them.
It seems you too have missed a point entirely. Animals don't generally engage in recreational sex. Your repeated association of wild animals and sexual activity is a lousy metaphor. If humans were to imitate animals, they would only have sex around the time of ovulation, and never after menopause.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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gorpo
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# 17025

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
[QB] It's also a bit odd to talk of being 'degraded' to a wild animal, isn't it? I find wild animals rather magnificent really, not degraded at all.

Oh I get it, it's a Christian thing, wild animals equals unbridled lust, equals sin, equals you're fucked. Well, maybe you're not fucked!

Well, this was supposed to be a christian forum after all...

quote:
But as the last but one poster kindly pointed out, wild animals don't have unbridled lust at all.
Not really true... animals have sex when they feel like it, whenever, wherever, and that´s pretty much "unbridled" by human standards.

Us humans have our social conventions which say we cannot have sex in public, not with strangers, not with your own mother or sister... all of which are very natural among animals.

And there´s also the case for animal homossexuality, one of the examples where conception is clearly impossible.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
It seems you too have missed a point entirely. Animals don't generally engage in recreational sex. Your repeated association of wild animals and sexual activity is a lousy metaphor. If humans were to imitate animals, they would only have sex around the time of ovulation, and never after menopause.

I don't think I have. Most people whose lives revolve around porn won't know anything about this. So it is a poor representation of how they percieve the wild animal kingdom (and therefore themselves) to be. Such people wouldn't be interested about the realities of wildlife as it really is.

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Doublethink.
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Have you folks not heard of Bonobos ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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IngoB

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
A propos of nothing, Stetson, why do you write 'p0rn'?

He's misspelling pr0n...

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I don't think it was the two Ronnies - it was "Not the Nine O'Clock News" - I couldn't find it on youtube, but obviously I didn't spend too much time searching!

Sorry, my link wasn't to the skit you mentioned. It was a Woody Allen scene from Bananas, where he's buying p0rn at a corner store. Your reference to the British skit just reminded me of it.
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Og, why might porn be "killing sex"? Isn't it more likely to lead to folk having increased sex?

Apparently, it is killing good sex because young male expectations are focused upon a certain type of experience; i.e. quick masturbatory inducing fantasies.

If women don't match up to those fantasies, then the guys are put off.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
A propos of nothing, Stetson, why do you write 'p0rn'?

He's misspelling pr0n...
Yes, on some boards, possibly not the Ship, it's traditional to do so either to evade language-filters, or(I think) prevent banner ads and spammers from being attracted to the correctly-spelled word. I just sort of fell into the habit.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
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Masturbation is all well and good.

A complete focus on what gets guys off is not, and that is what internet porn is doing.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Sorry, my link wasn't to the skit you mentioned. It was a Woody Allen scene from Bananas, where he's buying p0rn at a corner store. Your reference to the British skit just reminded me of it.

No need for apologies - the two clips are quite similar.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Stetson
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Soror Magna wrote:

quote:
It seems you too have missed a point entirely. Animals don't generally engage in recreational sex.
Well, while I am not an expert on animal-psychology, my guess would be that, when they engage in sex, they are, in their own minds, doing it for recreational purposes. I don't know if animals are aware that sex will result in procreation.

For me, the big distinction that pOrn highlights between animals and humans is the latter's capacity for fetish and fantasy. You don't normally see animals dressing up in sexy costumes, or telling each other stories about wildly exaggerated sexual encounters.

And yes, I realize I've probably misused the word "festish" there. I meant something like "external trappings added onto the basic physical experience".

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
It seems you too have missed a point entirely. Animals don't generally engage in recreational sex. Your repeated association of wild animals and sexual activity is a lousy metaphor. If humans were to imitate animals, they would only have sex around the time of ovulation, and never after menopause.

I don't think I have. Most people whose lives revolve around porn won't know anything about this. So it is a poor representation of how they percieve the wild animal kingdom (and therefore themselves) to be. Such people wouldn't be interested about the realities of wildlife as it really is.
For most people who use porn, their lives do not revolve around it - and even if they did, I'm not sure how it affects their knowledge of biology. Since even most domestic animals only have sex when it would lead to reproduction (cats coming into heat and all that), most people have some idea about that. In any case, that wasn't the point - the point is that pornography would seem to be uniquely human, and so it cannot render its users animal-like. There are animals who participate in purely recreational sex (dolphins and bonobos for instance) but they are few, and they certainly don't recreate it in books or films for others to use.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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iamchristianhearmeroar
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quote:
Most people whose lives revolve around porn won't know anything about this.
Er, how on earth can you know that?! Why on earth should someone's use of porn have anything to do with their knowledge of biology? Simply because someone engages in what is deemed (by some) to be a vice says nothing about their intelligence or lack of it.

quote:
Such people wouldn't be interested about the realities of wildlife as it really is.
"Such people" - what people are those then? Again, this is wild conjecture surely...

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quetzalcoatl
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But this is where discussions of porn often seem to end up, with unsupported assertions, wild conjectures and colourful anecdotes.

Thus: 'people whose lives revolve around porn'. Who are these people? Where are they? How do you know them?

I suppose it's inevitable. Porn is exciting and titillating to some people, therefore it produces excitable gossip.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But this is where discussions of porn often seem to end up, with unsupported assertions, "wild" conjectures and colourful anecdotes...

I'm sure that wasn't intentional! [Big Grin]

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Mark Betts

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# 17074

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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
It seems you too have missed a point entirely. Animals don't generally engage in recreational sex. Your repeated association of wild animals and sexual activity is a lousy metaphor. If humans were to imitate animals, they would only have sex around the time of ovulation, and never after menopause.

I don't think I have. Most people whose lives revolve around porn won't know anything about this. So it is a poor representation of how they percieve the wild animal kingdom (and therefore themselves) to be. Such people wouldn't be interested about the realities of wildlife as it really is.
For most people who use porn, their lives do not revolve around it - and even if they did, I'm not sure how it affects their knowledge of biology. Since even most domestic animals only have sex when it would lead to reproduction (cats coming into heat and all that), most people have some idea about that. In any case, that wasn't the point - the point is that pornography would seem to be uniquely human, and so it cannot render its users animal-like. There are animals who participate in purely recreational sex (dolphins and bonobos for instance) but they are few, and they certainly don't recreate it in books or films for others to use.
When someone commits a particulary nasty violent act, people would call him an "animal" wouldn't they? But they are not saying that they hate animals, it is just a perceived image.

Whether "animal" can be justified when talking about porn, well you can question it, but that is the sense I meant it. To me, it means not becoming anything, but losing any virtues which distinguish humans from other animals.

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Cod
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quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:

That said, I've seen credible reports that it's genuinely addictive for others, but I wanted to add my anecdata-point.

I suspect porn is a good deal less addictive or damaging than alcohol.

quote:
Also I can't pretend that most porn isn't problematic, to say the least, in its production. Exploitation of vulnerable individuals etc.
I expect technology will soon create computer-generated porn that doesn't require filming of any real person and thus avoid this issue.

I now have the rather odd image of Kryten and Lady Penelope committing some lewd act, but I hope you see my point.

But there is another issue:

quote:
That I mainly indulge in the written word means I get to dodge this issue but I do still feel it, I assure you.
Written porn/erotica can objectify people just as much as the visual stuff, or so it seems to me. But is this really a problem. Objectification takes place in all sorts of contexts. Porn seems to get singled out for a particularly hard time.

I suspect that porn is still treated with suspicion because male sexuality is still considered dirty (unlike female sexuality).

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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

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Bob Two-Owls
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quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
I now have the rather odd image of Kryten and Lady Penelope committing some lewd act, but I hope you see my point.

Rule 34 dude!
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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Og, why might porn be "killing sex"? Isn't it more likely to lead to folk having increased sex?

Apparently, it is killing good sex because young male expectations are focused upon a certain type of experience; i.e. quick masturbatory inducing fantasies.

If women don't match up to those fantasies, then the guys are put off.

And your evidence for this is.......

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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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Pomona
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# 17175

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
It seems you too have missed a point entirely. Animals don't generally engage in recreational sex. Your repeated association of wild animals and sexual activity is a lousy metaphor. If humans were to imitate animals, they would only have sex around the time of ovulation, and never after menopause.

I don't think I have. Most people whose lives revolve around porn won't know anything about this. So it is a poor representation of how they percieve the wild animal kingdom (and therefore themselves) to be. Such people wouldn't be interested about the realities of wildlife as it really is.
For most people who use porn, their lives do not revolve around it - and even if they did, I'm not sure how it affects their knowledge of biology. Since even most domestic animals only have sex when it would lead to reproduction (cats coming into heat and all that), most people have some idea about that. In any case, that wasn't the point - the point is that pornography would seem to be uniquely human, and so it cannot render its users animal-like. There are animals who participate in purely recreational sex (dolphins and bonobos for instance) but they are few, and they certainly don't recreate it in books or films for others to use.
When someone commits a particulary nasty violent act, people would call him an "animal" wouldn't they? But they are not saying that they hate animals, it is just a perceived image.

Whether "animal" can be justified when talking about porn, well you can question it, but that is the sense I meant it. To me, it means not becoming anything, but losing any virtues which distinguish humans from other animals.

Is the odd spot of masturbating really a nasty violent act or in any other way animalistic? Because other than a few primates and the ever-randy dolphins, masturbation and fantasizing in general (and porn is basically fantasy on film) would seem to distinguish humans from most animals. I don't see how it can make humans lose virtues that distinguish them from animals, when the very act is uniquely human in the first place - unless you've seen a dog with a copy of Playboy recently.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Pomona
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# 17175

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quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:

That said, I've seen credible reports that it's genuinely addictive for others, but I wanted to add my anecdata-point.

I suspect porn is a good deal less addictive or damaging than alcohol.

quote:
Also I can't pretend that most porn isn't problematic, to say the least, in its production. Exploitation of vulnerable individuals etc.
I expect technology will soon create computer-generated porn that doesn't require filming of any real person and thus avoid this issue.

I now have the rather odd image of Kryten and Lady Penelope committing some lewd act, but I hope you see my point.

But there is another issue:

quote:
That I mainly indulge in the written word means I get to dodge this issue but I do still feel it, I assure you.
Written porn/erotica can objectify people just as much as the visual stuff, or so it seems to me. But is this really a problem. Objectification takes place in all sorts of contexts. Porn seems to get singled out for a particularly hard time.

I suspect that porn is still treated with suspicion because male sexuality is still considered dirty (unlike female sexuality).

Erotic art and cartoons have been around for millennia and often without using any real life person as a model.

And rather than dirty, female sexuality (until very recently and even then in limited ways) has just been seen as non-existent.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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Evidently I've read some of the same articles Og has because I'm in complete agreement with him. One particular piece I read last year, which of course I can't find now, said that:

Internet porn use is now named in 56% of divorce cases.

The average age of boys who first view porn on the internet is 11.

The tendency is to look at more and more bizaar porn as the viewer gets bored with what was once titilating -- from Victoria's Secret ads, to nudes, to sex acts, to younger women, to bestiality, to very young girls. The definition of "taboo," and the extra excitement that goes with it, keeps moving downward.

Men rate their own wives as much less attractive after viewing porn.

Young men who "grow up" with porn have odd expectaions of what to do or expect the first time they have sex with a real girl -- one young woman was surprised to be painfully spanked on the first date.

One young man said that after dating real girls for a while he found that he much preferred staying home with his large internet portfolio of videos. The porn models were more attractive, came in endless variety and did and said the things he wanted to see and hear. Sex with real girls was awkward and boring by comparison.

Worst is probably the damage to marriages when wives are spending their evenings alone while their husbands are in the den, sharing the intimacy that should be strengthening their marriage with fantasy women on the net.

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Mark Betts

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# 17074

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Evidently I've read some of the same articles Og has because I'm in complete agreement with him. One particular piece I read last year, which of course I can't find now, said that:

Internet porn use is now named in 56% of divorce cases.

The average age of boys who first view porn on the internet is 11.

The tendency is to look at more and more bizaar porn as the viewer gets bored with what was once titilating -- from Victoria's Secret ads, to nudes, to sex acts, to younger women, to bestiality, to very young girls. The definition of "taboo," and the extra excitement that goes with it, keeps moving downward.

Men rate their own wives as much less attractive after viewing porn.

Young men who "grow up" with porn have odd expectaions of what to do or expect the first time they have sex with a real girl -- one young woman was surprised to be painfully spanked on the first date.

One young man said that after dating real girls for a while he found that he much preferred staying home with his large internet portfolio of videos. The porn models were more attractive, came in endless variety and did and said the things he wanted to see and hear. Sex with real girls was awkward and boring by comparison.

Worst is probably the damage to marriages when wives are spending their evenings alone while their husbands are in the den, sharing the intimacy that should be strengthening their marriage with fantasy women on the net.

[Overused] Very good post Twilight

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Mark Betts

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# 17074

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The average age of boys who first view porn on the internet is 11.

The tendency is to look at more and more bizaar porn as the viewer gets bored with what was once titilating -- from Victoria's Secret ads, to nudes, to sex acts, to younger women, to bestiality, to very young girls. The definition of "taboo," and the extra excitement that goes with it, keeps moving downward.

It is this part that worries me the most. Horrifying though it is, I think we all know it's true if we are honest.

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Paul.
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# 37

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The average age of boys who first view porn on the internet is 11.

The tendency is to look at more and more bizaar porn as the viewer gets bored with what was once titilating -- from Victoria's Secret ads, to nudes, to sex acts, to younger women, to bestiality, to very young girls. The definition of "taboo," and the extra excitement that goes with it, keeps moving downward.

It is this part that worries me the most. Horrifying though it is, I think we all know it's true if we are honest.
I don't. It's the kind of unsupported claim that I'd really like to see substantiated or withdrawn.

Again, using myself as an example, when I was a GLE I worried because I'd heard and believed that there was this slippery slope and that I might be on it. I was genuinely scared that my desire to look at naked ladies could some day become a habit for bestiality and child porn. Guess what? That NEVER HAPPENED.

I'll cop to objectification, exploitation and a whole host of other problematic issues about porn but I really need to see some data before I'll believe that this road from underwear catalogues to extreme (and illegal) porn really exists.

(btw I fixed your mis-attribution.)

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Mark Betts

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# 17074

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quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
I don't. It's the kind of unsupported claim that I'd really like to see substantiated or withdrawn.

Again, using myself as an example, when I was a GLE I worried because I'd heard and believed that there was this slippery slope and that I might be on it. I was genuinely scared that my desire to look at naked ladies could some day become a habit for bestiality and child porn. Guess what? That NEVER HAPPENED.

I'll cop to objectification, exploitation and a whole host of other problematic issues about porn but I really need to see some data before I'll believe that this road from underwear catalogues to extreme (and illegal) porn really exists.

(btw I fixed your mis-attribution.)

Thanks for editing my last post Late Paul - I tried to do it myself, but was too late.

The "slippery slope" will probably affect some more than others and in different ways - let's face it, there is more than one kind of "extreme" porn.

The thing is that, while you're waiting for this unsupported claim to be substantiated or withdrawn, there is a high chance others are unwittingly being damaged.

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Paul.
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# 37

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The thing is that, while you're waiting for this unsupported claim to be substantiated or withdrawn, there is a high chance others are unwittingly being damaged.

And unsubstantiated "facts" such as this are damaging others.
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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Evidently I've read some of the same articles Og has because I'm in complete agreement with him. One particular piece I read last year, which of course I can't find now, said that:

's ok. Even without seeing the original, I can rip it apart:

quote:
Internet porn use is now named in 56% of divorce cases.
The advent of no-fault divorce means that it is no longer necessary to have any specific "grounds" other than not wanting to be married. So however this number was calculated, it can't possibly include divorces in the many places that have no-fault divorce. It probably doesn't include religious divorces or annulments. In order to calculate this number, one would have to review a certain number of divorce filings in a particular jurisdiction. "Now" actually has to mean "over a certain period" - e.g. divorces from 2001 to 2010. So, how many divorces did they look at, where, and over what period of time, and can this be generalized to other places? There are also plenty of divorces where the stated reason is something like "differences with no possibility of reconciliation", which doesn't say anything about whether porn was or was not a reason. Were those excluded or counted as "no porn" divorces? However this number was arrived at, at best it applies to a very specific sub-set of divorces. At worst it's meaningless.

quote:
The average age of boys who first view porn on the internet is 11.

WHOAH. DOUBLE WHOAH. So, who is going out and asking 11-year old boys "when did you first watch porn on the internet?" Did some polling organization phone 1,000 households and ask the parents when their boys started watching porn? Were surveys handed out in public schools? What about girls watching porn?

quote:
The tendency is to look at more and more bizaar porn as the viewer gets bored with what was once titilating -- from Victoria's Secret ads, to nudes, to sex acts, to younger women, to bestiality, to very young girls. The definition of "taboo," and the extra excitement that goes with it, keeps moving downward.

So, a longitudinal study. How many subjects? How were they selected, and was there a control group? How long were they followed? How was the type of porn classified? Were all the subjects provided with a particular set and sequence of materials, or did they buy their own? Did they all follow the same sequence, did they all progress all the way to little girls, did some skip some types or go back?

quote:
Men rate their own wives as much less attractive after viewing porn.

How did they rate other men's wives? [Two face]

@ Mark Betts: The animal metaphor is lousy because animal behaviour is "natural" and good, except for when humans think it's bad. And humans should behave according to natural law, like animals, except when they shouldn't. Worms are hermaphroditic. Spiders eat their mates after sex. Amphibians and fish leave their eggs lying around any old where to be fertilized by the first male that comes along. Birds mate for life AND cheat. Humans make and watch porn, using whatever technology is available. So can we just leave the animals out of it?

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Mark Betts

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[brick wall] @ Suror Magna

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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George Spigot

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# 253

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quote:
There have been innumerable articles...

the old saying goes...

I’m not sure I could explain why...

There has been a steady stream of claims...

most of us are in no position to assess it...

I seem to remember reading once...

though I've not seen stats to show...

One particular piece I read last year, which of course I can't find now...

Well I don't know about anyone else but I'm convinced.
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Stetson
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# 9597

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Soror Magna wrote:

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The average age of boys who first view porn on the internet is 11.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


WHOAH. DOUBLE WHOAH. So, who is going out and asking 11-year old boys "when did you first watch porn on the internet?" Did some polling organization phone 1,000 households and ask the parents when their boys started watching porn? Were surveys handed out in public schools? What about girls watching porn?

There has actually been some credible, peer-reviewed work done on this, including by acadmeics at my old university.

A study

Apparently, they did in fact survey teenagers between the ages of 13 and 14. Not certain how, but since the study describes them as "from 17 urban and rural schools", I'm guessing they went into the schools to give the surveys(I recall one similar survey in middle school, though not as I recall on the topic of p0rn).

That article doesn't say what age the kids started viewing p0rn, but 11 doesn't strike me as inplausibly low at all. I think by that age I had seen p0rnographic material, back in the magazine era, and the same would be true for most of my male friends.

What harm, if any, it did us is another question. I think the researchers make some valid recommendations, regardless of where you stand on the issue.

--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Twilight

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# 2832

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George Spigot:
quote:
Well I don't know about anyone else but I'm convinced.
At least I read some articles written by psychologists who were studying the subject and who have more general information, covering larger groups of people, than just the odd, "I do it and I'm okay."

Where are your links to scientific studies backing your opinion?

[ 22. August 2012, 17:17: Message edited by: Twilight ]

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Well I don't know about anyone else but I'm convinced.

At least I read some articles written by psychologists who were studying the subject and who have more general information, covering larger groups of people, than just the odd, "I do it and I'm okay."

Where are your links to scientific studies backing your opinion? [/QB]

He doesn't need them because he hasn;t expressed an opinion. Just been skeptical about the "studies" backing up yours. A skepticism I'd share, from a purely scientific point of view.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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George Spigot

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Ken beat me to it but just to confirm, it's not that I currently hold an opposing opinion it's more that all the claims that are not being backed up very well are making me twitch.

--------------------
C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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Curiosity killed ...

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One thing that there is some evidence for is the noticeable increase in cosmetic surgery on female genitals - they are not entirely sure why the rapid increase, but one of the reasons that is suggested is internet porn

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Twilight

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# 2832

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Sorry. I thought we were just discussing what we thought or what we had read or what our own experience was about the issue.
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Twilight

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Here's a CNN spot that mentions some of the same things I had read but it's still not the actual studies. I almost never read scinetific studies so I imagine this was just an article in Utne reader or possibly Scientific American, magazines we have around the house.
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Cod
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# 2643

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

The tendency is to look at more and more bizaar porn as the viewer gets bored with what was once titilating -- from Victoria's Secret ads, to nudes, to sex acts, to younger women, to bestiality, to very young girls. The definition of "taboo," and the extra excitement that goes with it, keeps moving downward.

I don't think that everyone who learns to drive a car is at risk of developing a deviant interest in Ford Anglias or Austin Allegros. So I'm sure you can understand why a good many people, myself included, are skeptical of your claim.
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Palimpsest
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# 16772

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This theory that porn is going to cause young men to not want to have sex with actual young women reminds me of the Texan Minister in the 60's who preached that because young men were wearing long hair the human race was going to become exctinct because men and women wouldn't be able to find each other.

It's funny to watch all these busy posters on this site talk about the addiction to porn. Chat boards obviously don't cause people to stay in their den instead of spending quality time with their spouse, but I do think it's all downhill since the invention of the novel.
[Biased]

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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I think the request for evidence and studies is very reasonable.

Since this article is from Wkipedia, the usual health warnings apply, but it contains references to various studies, plus some interesting more general discussion on the definition of addiction.

Wiki article

I appreciate that my early post re encouragement to covet etc is an assertion. My view that covetousness is bad for people is moral judgment. The word "encourage" was carefully chosen. It recognises that there is nothing inevitable involved in viewing pornography.

I suppose my choices in the matter are based on a personal view that for me some temptations are better avoided than tested. I've never been one to generalise about my own strengths and weaknesses.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Cod
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# 2643

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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
One thing that there is some evidence for is the noticeable increase in cosmetic surgery on female genitals - they are not entirely sure why the rapid increase, but one of the reasons that is suggested is internet porn

Would you say this is worse than liposuction or a new nose? If so why?

--------------------
"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

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Mark Betts

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I might just add that maybe the term "addiction" is unhelpful. It would be better to talk of it as "habitual". We can debate scientific studies and surveys for the next 100 years without coming to a conclusion, but it won't stop the degeneration and damage to society which is (arguably) taking place all the time.

We need to take note that it at least might be harmful.

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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glockenspiel
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# 13645

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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
Point of clarification on "BBW" - in the contexts I've seen it, it was actually moderately affirmative, in that it was "Big Beautiful Women". Only moderately affirmative, because it was still in the context of flogging images to blokes to crack one off to.

Also, I'm aware these things can change. I still have to do a double-take every time one of the yoof at church posts "FTW!" on Facebook.
When I was growing up, it certainly didn't mean "for the win" ...

The BBW thing is interesting. I'm a (self-identifying) fat woman involved in fat activism and generally places that identify as for BBW tend to be like you describe, and have nothing to do with the politics of empowering women.
Ah yes, but are you beautiful??
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glockenspiel
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:


Men rate their own wives as much less attractive after viewing porn.


I rated my family as less intelligent after I had done a degree.

I rated my friends as less funny after I had been to see a stand-up comedian.

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ecumaniac

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# 376

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quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
I expect technology will soon create computer-generated porn that doesn't require filming of any real person and thus avoid this issue.

I think instead, technology will soon develop so that ordinary people will be able to cheaply and easily film porn themselves and then share it with other people, thus avoiding the need for porn companies to potentially exploit actors.

Oh wait, this has started happening already.

--------------------
it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine

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glockenspiel
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# 13645

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quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
I really need to see some data before I'll believe that this road from underwear catalogues to extreme (and illegal) porn really exists.


Not even specifically-underwear catalogues ... I can remember as a 12-year old happening upon the lingerie section of the perfectly respectable 'Kays' Catalogue ... Some tasty 'stuff' in there, I can tell you ...
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Cod
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# 2643

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What Glokenspiel said. Some of those images remain imprinted on my 'art.

And yet I can assure Twilight that I haven't been in the least bit tempted towards the sort of rake's progress she describes.

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Paul.
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I don't doubt the underwear catalogue phenomenon exists, I doubt the slippery slope from it to utter depravity.

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
We need to take note that it at least might be harmful.

It might be but so might crossing the road on my way to work this morning. What I believe is harmful - because I've experienced this harm personally - is the effect on naive minds of overly harsh scare-mongering about pretty ordinary sexual feelings.
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