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Source: (consider it) Thread: AS: Job Search Support Thread
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by Telepath:
Yeah, but a lot of jobs posted on web boards don't get a lot of applications at all. Reed.co.uk actually shows you the number of applications that have been made! Which is not to say that the job hasn't been advertised elsewhere, but still!

That's why I mentioned the stats were from North America. Job Search in the UK is different, I know; I didn't realise this aspect was so different. [Paranoid]

I just kinda wonder about applying to an advertised posting late. A lot of firms use crawlers to search for keywords, and once they reach the quota of resumes they want to move forward in the process with, they stop looking.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Freelance Monotheist
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# 8990

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Well, I'm glad I didn't post a few days ago, all full of happiness and excitement at starting my Berlitz language teaching course, asc I've been asked to leave it, as I'm really useless when it comes to actually teaching! I just can't get my head round the method, it doesn't feel natural to me, and I had problems thinking of questions to ask and often got confused regarding where I was in the process, and then I'd panic, and that'd make me more stressed so I'd lose my place even more and get more panicky and frustrated and so on and so forth.
Plus I was getting really tired as it was an hour and a quarter on the train to get in, and I had to get up really early after a long time of not doing so, and by the middle of the day, I was tired. Plus other people talking, a stuffy room and not being 100% healthy didn't help matters much at all.
The course organiser guy did say that my ideas for teaching were good, and that my grammatical knowledge is sound, and maybe I'll be ready in a few years, when I've had some experience, so it wasn't completely negative.
Feeling very [Waterworks] [Help] and [brick wall] at the moment, and need to sort out what the next step is. I like the idea of marrying a very rich man, but I should have a back-up plan, don't you think?

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Denial: a very effective coping mechanism

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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My first teaching job was sheer hell.

I'm actually good at it now! Don't give up. (Though a nice rich guy would be lovely, but then I'm married.)

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534

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I would suggest giving private language tutoring, if you haven't already done that.

Perhaps the Berlitz method doesn't really suit you. I remember looking at it and thinking that it wasn't really my style of thing. If your grammatical knowledge is sound, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to teach by another method.

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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.

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Zoey

Broken idealist
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Oh poor you, Freelance Monotheist - much sympathy [Frown]

In the end, I didn't apply for the job I mentioned yesterday, not so much because I wasn't sure about the job but more because my application would have been very much a rush job. (I get the impression the organisation the job was with is relatively large and might be advertising similar vacancies later on (hopefully once I've got my act together a bit more) so I didn't want to send in a rushed/potentially botched application + give them a rubbish impression of me unnecessarily.)

Og - thanks for your advice. I should probably make it clear that the jobs I'm looking at and thinking about applying for are not at all high-powered and aren't in a particularly competitive field. I'm looking at jobs on the bottom rung of the social care ladder (i.e. 'care assistant'/'support worker' jobs). There are simply masses of such jobs. Obviously working out which ones I'd be able to cope with, which ones would suit me and which ones are with decent employers (there are lots of social care temp agencies, some much better than others) narrows down the field. But my impression is still that there are probably more of these jobs around than there are good candidates determinedly chasing them. However, before I start determinedly chasing them I really need to go back to basics and do things like updating my 2 year-old CV and re-contacting my referees (I told you that I'm rubbish at job hunting [Disappointed] ).

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Pay no mind, I'm doing fine, I'm breathing on my own.

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Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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quote:
Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:
I am crap at job-searching (which makes me even more fortunate that my situation isn't at all pressured and I can survive a while longer without a job - I know, I'm a lucky sod).

If you're not sure about a job (say 50-50), but the application deadline is imminent, then you apply anyway, don't you?, on the basis that you might not get interviewed, plus you can withdraw your application any time before or after interview if you want to?

Absolutely!

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

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Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:
Originally posted by Telepath:
Yeah, but a lot of jobs posted on web boards don't get a lot of applications at all. Reed.co.uk actually shows you the number of applications that have been made! Which is not to say that the job hasn't been advertised elsewhere, but still!

That's why I mentioned the stats were from North America. Job Search in the UK is different, I know; I didn't realise this aspect was so different. [Paranoid]

I just kinda wonder about applying to an advertised posting late. A lot of firms use crawlers to search for keywords, and once they reach the quota of resumes they want to move forward in the process with, they stop looking.

Or if it's gotten a lot of response, they just won't deal with the latecomers.

I was told once in a phone interview that 30 people had made the first cut for the job I was interviewing for. Don't know how many that was sifted out from but I figure there are 30 of me out there looking for work locally [Biased] .

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

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Ethne Alba
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Training going well....but I'm here again.

Need to land one day /wk with a social care-ish agency. Off to flaunt my experiences and attributes next week with what looks like the most hopeful lot in our city.
Done lots of research (boring and so dispiriting) and had one in-off-the-street chat (encouraging and helpful)

They like me, I like them.
So far, so good.
But I do require one day a week and no nonsense.
Going in Thursday.........

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Jonm
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quote:
Originally posted by Smudgie:
Jon [Smile] How lovely to see you!
I think the question of when to raise the issue of working from home depends on how important it is to whether or not you take the job if offered to you. If it's just something that's an ideal but can be managed without, I'd raise it after any offer, but if it's essential to you, I'd raise it during the interview. I wouldn't raise it beforehand - let them see what a good move it would be to employ you first! [Big Grin]

I think I'm going to ask at the interview (if I get it they'll tell me in 2 weeks) wether they'd take someone who wants tow work i) 6-7 days a fortnight full days 9-5 or ii) 7-8-9 days a week with a bit of work done on trains at the beginning of they end of days. It's going to sound presumptuous but that's really all I can do without falling down flat after about two weeks. The web site does talk about have terms and conditions as good as most universities, and I think few university-research jobs would reject that out of hand.



I'm really excited about this---it would be a fantastic combination of my qualifications and interests and would be my first ever permanent job. But its a terribly competitive field, especially in the bit of the world I'm applying to.

Smudige lovely to see you again too. [Smile]

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"My God, My God, why hast thou accepted me?"---Caedmon's Call

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Agent Smith
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I have two interviews in the next two weeks (Both Mondays), both roles I would like the only difference is the salary.

Hopefully I will be able to show the bouncy and confident Agent Smith, and tell them what I can really do. [Confused]

Will post on prayer thread.

--------------------
"I'm so English, I am probably descended from a Cricket Bat and a cup of tea".

James May - 20th Century

http://www.flickr.com/photos/agentsmith1974/

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neandergirl

Opposing the thumb
# 8916

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[Votive] for all of us still looking.

--------------------
Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you. Hebrews 13:5 NIV
We come from love, we return to love, and all around is love.
Lord, ease our burdens, give us peace and enable us to do your work. Tree Bee

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Agent Smith
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I will be permanently employed by a well known organisation for young women celebrating thier centenary in 2010 [Snigger] .

Once again I got the job [Yipee] , and am now working my notice. I am really excited about the new challenge and finally stability.

Thanks for all your prayers and [Votive] for those still looking.

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Zoey

Broken idealist
# 11152

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Hurray and well done, Agent Smith!
Nice to hear good news [Smile]

(*goes off to google the Scouts sister organisation to see if it was founded in 1910*)

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Pay no mind, I'm doing fine, I'm breathing on my own.

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Campbellite

Ut unum sint
# 1202

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No need to Google. They were.

Campbellite
former employee of BSA

--------------------
I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?

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Agent Smith
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# 3299

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quote:
Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:
Hurray and well done, Agent Smith!
Nice to hear good news [Smile]

(*goes off to google the Scouts sister organisation to see if it was founded in 1910*)

thats the one [Yipee]

--------------------
"I'm so English, I am probably descended from a Cricket Bat and a cup of tea".

James May - 20th Century

http://www.flickr.com/photos/agentsmith1974/

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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534

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Yay for Agent Smith!

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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.

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Geneviève

Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
# 9098

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Hooray! And well done, Agent Smith!! [Yipee]

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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)

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Ethne Alba
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# 5804

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Lovely to hear about success.

Nothing happening here, computer down and out for a few weeks combined with crashing minor health problems.
Interview scrapped, back to the beginning.

[ 13. June 2007, 07:51: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]

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neandergirl

Opposing the thumb
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Yay! for Agent S
[Votive] for the rest of us still seeking.

--------------------
Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you. Hebrews 13:5 NIV
We come from love, we return to love, and all around is love.
Lord, ease our burdens, give us peace and enable us to do your work. Tree Bee

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Stevie Boy Wonder
Shipmate
# 11869

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Room for one more around here?

The story so far (condensed version): left school at 16 and bumbled through life for a few years before ending up doing admin stuff. Had an enjoyable but basic job in the NHS for four years before upping sticks to here, wherein I temped for two years in local government. Have now been in a permanent role for 18 months in a different but similar department of local gov, but the current job is very busy and quite pressurised. At the end of last summer I started to question whether I really wanted to carry on doing admin stuff, then ended up off work with stress for two months. Upon my return, my manager suggested giving it six months or so to see how I got on.

Well, I've given it six months, and I really don't know if I can cope with it much longer. The only problem is, I really don't know what I want to do instead. I've realised recently that I'm much more of a people person than a paperwork person, yet I've ended up in a job where the people:paper ratio is about 90:10. Now I'm not sure whether to look at something more people-oriented but still admin-based, or try something entirely new. All I know is, after an evening looking at jobs in the local paper and on t'internet, I feel completely lost - not convinced I can do any of the jobs I like the look of, not liking the look of any of the jobs I know I could do.

I know God's in control, He doesn't let us down, He has great plans for my life etc, but I'm finding it bloody hard to tell where He's taking me...

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Jesus saves. But in the current economic climate, His pension probably won't be enough for eternity...

Also by the same author

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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534

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Again with the "What Color Is Your Parachute" recommendation. It will help you deduce your strengths and preferences, and find an occupation from them.

Rather than looking through ads in the paper which list "we're looking for people with all of Stevie Boy Wonder's weaknesses, to join our obnoxious and self-satisfied team doing this complete subset of the tasks Stevie Boy Wonder really hates!"

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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.

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Zoey

Broken idealist
# 11152

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I'm high on sympathy and low on helpful advice, SBW, sorry.

(Telepath's recommendation of What Color Is Your Parachute? sounds good though - *nods*)

I've bought today's Bham Mail but not looked at the jobs ads yet. The jobs section in the Thursday Mail (+ particularly the jobs section I'm interested in) seemed to start shrinking a couple of weeks ago, though [Paranoid] I don't know whether people do less general recruitment over summer, or if there's just been a random drop in the number of vacancies, or what.

(ps SBW - don't you do 'yoof' stuff at your church? That might be one possible starting point for thinking about what people skills you have / plugging your people skills to potential employers / etc.)

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Pay no mind, I'm doing fine, I'm breathing on my own.

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Geneviève

Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
# 9098

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Parachute is always popular, and some people find it extremely helpful. Not to disparage Telepath's advice, I would also add that the complexity of the book's approach freaked me out, and added to my anxiety. But YMMV.
We used a book in my Career development course that I found fascinating and insightful. It is called Soul Work: Finding the work you love. .. and one of the authors is Lee Richmond. It's a spiritual approach to looking at your whole life and what you want to do/what you value in various areas. IE, work isnt' the only thing about you that's important. There are lots of exercises, some of which may not fit but try some. Many of the ones I thought would be silly turned out to free up my right brain and gave me important info.
it's not expensive--maybe under $20 paperback I think.
Good luck!

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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)

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Lady A

Narnian Lady
# 3126

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I have an interview next Wednesday to work in a local high school library. Even though I have a job, I'd love to end my working career (still a bit of a ways to go!) doing and being in an environment I love. I want to do this so bad, and have been disappointed before, but I'm still trying.
Posts: 2545 | From: The Lion's Mane, Narnia | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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I've got a job, why am I entertaining the idea of getting a different one?

A job with possibly higher pay -- only maybe a dollar more per hour, but still! --

And so close to home I could ride my bike to work again --

And a 40+ year family business, rather than a neglected stepchild of a location bought out by an LLC in an unrelated field, where I am now --

They want me for a second interview tomorrow.

I went to the first in the middle of a busy day on my current job, "uniform" of dark blue T-shirt and dark-blue capris? pedal-pushers?, hair all wild from driving across town with the windows down (no A/C in my van), no make-up, all sweaty.

I knew we had a booming economy and good employees are hard to find right now, but who would have thought they'd actually call me back again after I showed up looking like the Wicked Witch of the Swamp?

Current employer will pay for me to finish my college degree -- hard to leave that, for sure!

OTOH, prospective employer would give me discounts and driving courses so I could easily get a motorcycle.

[ 15. June 2007, 04:23: Message edited by: Janine ]

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534

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I've written a song about jobhunting.

It goes like this:

I HATE JOB HUNTING
I HATE JOB HUNTING
I REALLY REALLY HATE JOB HUNTING (repeat)
(refrain)
JOB HUNTING IS GALLING
JOB HUNTING IS NOXIOUS
JOB HUNTING IS GRUELLY UNPLEASANT (repeat)
(refrain)
AND THEN AT THE END OF IT, YOU HAVE TO GO TO WORK
LIFE'S A BITCH AND THEN YOU DIE
JOBHUNTING'S A BITCH AND THEN YOU WORK (repeat)

refrain:
I HATE JOB HUNTING
MAKE IT GO AWAY
I HATE JOB HUNTING
WHEN'S IT GOING TO BE OVER
I HATE IT I HATE IT I REALLY REALLY HATE IT

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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.

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Lady A

Narnian Lady
# 3126

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[Killing me]

I can just hear the heavy metal pounding away. Good one Telepath!

Posts: 2545 | From: The Lion's Mane, Narnia | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
neandergirl

Opposing the thumb
# 8916

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Finally getting back into applying after the crushing let down last month. Any spare prayer, positive thought, good vibe you all don't mind tossing this way greatly appreciated.

Continuing to keep all searchers in the light [Votive] .

--------------------
Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you. Hebrews 13:5 NIV
We come from love, we return to love, and all around is love.
Lord, ease our burdens, give us peace and enable us to do your work. Tree Bee

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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804

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[Votive]
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Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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I showed up to the second interview at the time I said I would, after a telephone conversation with the manager who wanted to see me, in which he said that the time was flexible and didn't matter, and that there was no time he would be out of the office.

In other words, although I had a couple of time slots available in my day, he said he'd be around and not to worry about a time, because he wasn't leaving.

Then of course when I get there, at my offered time even, I find that he has gone to lunch and wouldn't be back for maybe 2 hours, neither him nor the Bigger Boss who'd done the initial interview. [Roll Eyes]

So I said I'd be in touch and left to go back to work.

I have to be prepared to take possibly as much as a 2-hour lunch break from my current job, if I want to go all the way across town to see these prospective employers. It can take 45 minutes to get there and 45 back, if the traffic is bad, plus the time to sit down like an impressive, smart, calmly enthusiastic person for the actual interview itself.

I cannot keep doing this. I usually lose my overtime in a given week when I do any sort of personal/family errand at all, because I live across town from my job. Almost all of my bills and medical and other appointments always take more than the standard 1 hour lunch break I'm given. So I try not to have one of those days more than once a week.

I've arranged to be in late for work Monday morning because I'll be in the next town picking up some paperwork I need for my taxes at 7:30 a.m.; I can be not far away from the prospective employer when they open at 9 a.m., I think.

Of course that will mean I don't make it in to work until about 10 a.m. at earliest.

Is a job I'm not even sure I'd take worth disrupting three days, maybe more, at my current, not-unsatisfactory job?

[ 17. June 2007, 21:12: Message edited by: Janine ]

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Campbellite

Ut unum sint
# 1202

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Telepath,

Ordinarily we frown on ALL CAPS, but in this case, you really are shouting, so I guess it's OK.

Clever rant.

Campbellite
Host

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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?

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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534

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Originally posted by Janine:

quote:
Then of course when I get there, at my offered time even, I find that he has gone to lunch and wouldn't be back for maybe 2 hours, neither him nor the Bigger Boss who'd done the initial interview.
I think you have a right to expect certain standards of a prospective employer, the most basic of which is that they turn up.

I would strongly suggest that you not give any further consideration to working for them, since they have already shown a complete lack of regard for your time and money.

Don't forget, everyone is on their best behaviour at interview time. So what are they going to be like if you actually start working for them?

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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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Yeah, I see your point.

If he had something urgent come up, he should have told the other folks there that he was expecting me and to make his apologies.

I did send off an email asking did he want to see me Monday.. If he doesn't check his email over the weekend I won;t get a reply to that until Monday is half over. I think I will leave it at that. If they want to chase after me, we will see what they offer.

We are still trying to hire more employees at my current job -- and the job market is rolling along so fast right now, it is difficult to come up with real attractive prospects.

I may in fact be only one of three to five people they have to consider, and given my background am probably the best qualified. Unless there's a service writer experienced in motocycle repair who's just moved into the area, looking for work.

--------------------
I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534

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Spent today laboriously completing a test for a job I know I don't have the right skillset for, but having committed to doing the test I couldn't go back on it.

While doing the test one prospect emailed to tell me that my experience had too much of a managerial flavour for them.

Then an agent phoned up and said an online supermarket had turned me down because they didn't have anything in my salary range because "the junior positions only pay up to £this_much". Junior?!? [Mad] [Mad] [Mad]

Then the other agent, the one who was so encouraging, rang to say that a prospect in telecoms was being a bit precious because, like many companies, they were sure that what they do there is unique; but he was really pushing for me and insisting that I'm a capable person. I thanked him for phoning, and he said it was nice to have an excuse to talk to me... [Ultra confused] If I'm honest, 'scarily enthusiastic' would be a more accurate description than 'encouraging'; I fear he may begin to stalk me soon...

The guy who sent me to the petroleum engineering company said that he was on the lookout, but most of what he had on his desk right now was really hardcore mathematical stuff rather than Java. He said it was really just a matter of time.

Sigh. My skillset has a managerial flavour, but if I applied for managerial jobs, it would be pointed out that I haven't actually BEEN a manager before, just used managerial-type skills. I've also had people tell me I'm a DBA because of my database design experience, but I haven't actually BEEN a DBA nor designed a database for a large number of users, ergo all my experience in this regard is, obviously, utterly useless. Oh, and the coding and application development that I've done is crap too, because that was all in Microsoft Access [Projectile] [Projectile] [Projectile]

The market really only wants you to use identical skills to the ones you used in your last job. Assuming I could find an equally demanding job for equally little pay, I would, of course, hate it, squinting back into the mists of recent memory and experience.

Oh, and one of the dozen or so halfhearted excuses for making me redundant, which they really didn't even bother trying to get me to believe, was that my skillset wouldn't match the demands of my job in the future. WTF skills could they possibly need that I didn't have, do you suppose?!? Were they planning to expand their measly, pathetic CRUD applications into thin-client particle accelerators for the field sales teams' laptops?

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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.

Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804

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OK.
Chased up a head of dept this week, our ansaphones had been talking to each other for too long.
"Good Morning, Ms Persistence" was his opener...so I'm thinking that's good?
Our chat went very well and I'm offered an interview today at 2pm.

Asked to bring in some paperwork which is on file.
And right now our computer/printer has flipped.
And I am trying not to.
Prayers please as my daughter attempts to fix the computer/ printer glich.

And prayers please for the interview.
This dept really needs staff with my experience and previous/ present employers all very willing to give references.

I've been here before and a torpedo comes along.

Today I would really appreciate no torpedoes or hurricanes, no cancelled trains or buses, no emergency staff meetings, no employers off sick, no overunning meetings causing cancelled interviews, no virus or flu, no pestilance or plague.
Just a lovely happy day with everything going along the way it could do.

thank you kindly!

Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Telepath
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# 3534

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EA - silly question - couldn't you email the paperwork?

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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.

Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804

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Previous CRBs and certificates.
They wanted to see the originals. As ever!

Way back when .... I foolishly allowed a vital certificate to be out of my eyeshot JUST long enough to be lost.
That certificate was able to be replaced, but helpfully has the word "replacement" printed across the top.
Not the best way to ensure that future employers think that I'm fabulously organised, capable and reliable.
And yes, I always do get asked why it's a replacement....grrr!

Interview went well.
Took over two hours and I saw four seperate people.

Now to wait................!

Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Telepath
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# 3534

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Okay... here's a moral dilemma for you, which I will explain in the longest possible terms.

Last week, an agent sent me a test, stipulating that it must be returned handwritten. The majority of the questions would be testing a language (C++) that I'm very rusty in. I had decided that I was going to stop selling that particular language as one of my core skills, since it wasn't coming back to me as easily as I had expected. I told this agent so, and explained that I thought we were better off emphasizing my other languages instead.

He said okay, and if it proved to be appropriate he would hand me over to his colleagues who dealt with those particular languages, but could he send me over the test anyway? I said okay.

Well, one look at the test made it clear that I wasn't going to be able to do the C++ questions without opening a book. Not all the questions were C++, though. By this time it was a Friday evening, so I couldn't talk to the agent. I was also afraid that if I called him on Monday and told him I couldn't complete the test, it might cast doubt on all of my programming skills, not just my C++ skills. Whereas, if I did the test, at least I'd get a bit of a refresher course out of it. So I decided to work out the answers with the help of my books, return the completed test, and then tell the agent that I hadn't done it as a closed-book test.

This I did, faxing the answers over, and I phoned him up and explained. I said that since the answers were to be submitted handwritten, and since the clients had originally wanted me to travel to the agent's headquarters in Birmingham to do the test there, I inferred that they wanted it done closed-book and in a strict amount of time. Since I hadn't done that, I assumed he wouldn't want to put me forward.

He said why didn't he put me forward anyway? I said, okay, but emphasized that my C++ is not very good at the moment, and I had spent considerable time on the test and researched my answers, so if he did put me forward, that had to be understood. He said okay, and at least I was honest, that was the main thing.

So I phone the next day for an update, and he said he'd had no feedback yet but he'd really sell me with all his might.

Then he phoned me the following day, saying he was about to go into a conference call with the client, and this time he seemed really upset that I'd researched my answers. Why had I done that, he asked? Why?

I pointed out that I hadn't misled him at any time and had been very clear about the situation at all times. He said we'd need to "go back to the beginning" and that he needed to understand more about whether I was committed to working in that particular sector, or whether I just wanted any job. Then the phone rang for his conference call.

A while later, we had another conversation, in which this agent questioned me carefully about everything. I ended the conversation feeling an undefined sense of guilt and an increased sense of gratitude towards that agent, both of which felt wrong and creepy given the facts of the situation.

Then the next day, he rang me again. Apparently that client have traps set on Google for people who try to steal answers. They told my agent that if anybody had done that, they'd know it. Therefore, my agent now knew that my answers, though researched, were substantially my own work.

He still did not tell the clients that I had researched my answers. He said he had told them "unfortunately Telepath is no longer looking," to which the client reportedly replied "that's a shame". Since most of the candidates hadn't been able to answer all the questions, whereas I believe I got most of them mostly correct - though only because I wasn't doing them off the top of my head. My agent then went on to ask what they would think if they found out that a candidate had researched their answers. They replied that in that case, they wouldn't want to invite them for interview.

I told my agent I thought that was fair enough, and he said he was going to put me up for a completely different company, and all was fine.

Meanwhile, yesterday morning, I went for an interview with a consultancy firm. I was unhappy about it because the firm works in several sectors that are incompatible with my faith, even though I was applying for a different sector. You are apparently expected to be "flexible" about the sector you work in. I was not looking forward to having to explain myself to them on that matter.

I'd been assured that the travel was minimal and mainly in areas close to where I live, but it turned out that that was not the case and that the guy interviewing me had recently spent an extended period of time living in a hotel on the opposite side of the country.

Well, I said I could live with that. This is because I felt I was taking too demanding an approach to my jobsearch and that I ought to humble myself and let God send me where He would.

But I was very very unhappy on the way home. Living in a hotel... no stability... no life... no KITTEHZ... [Waterworks] the end of the dream. I prayed to God, saying I would submit to his will, but I wished I didn't have to do this.

As I got on the mainline train home, I found a voicemail. This turned out to be from a company I'd applied to a couple of weeks before, inviting me for interview. I accepted with alacrity.

I also felt released from any obligation to take the consultancy job. As soon as I got home, I explained to the hiring managers that there was more travel than I'd been led to believe, and that I couldn't commit to that, so they'd better withdraw my application.

Whistling a happy tune, I went about my day's business.

Just now, I decided to have a quick Google of the corporate culture at the company that will be interviewing me in a couple of weeks.

Oh carp. [Ultra confused]

They've just taken over the company that my agent sent the test to.

They apparently are going to be trading as completely separate entities, with no change of staff or directorship... but working closely together. In fact, apparently some of the products of the acquired company will be prepending the new company's name to their existing product names.

What if the HR department of the company interviewing me got a look at the test that my agent sent to the acquired company?

What if this has influenced their decision to interview me?

What if my agent thinks I've gone behind his back?

You know, early in our acquaintance, he pressed me to tell him what other companies I'd applied to. I know he can't demand that, and that in fact, he's not allowed to put me up to companies without telling me what they are. Casting around for a non-confrontational way out, I said that I'd tell him if I got interviews to any other companies in his sector, and then he wouldn't end up "looking a fool" as he claimed he was so afraid to do.

Well, duh. This company is in his sector. Whether I have any moral obligation to tell him simply because I said I would, is one question. Whether I have any moral obligation to tell him because the company interviewing me is closely associated with the one he just sent my invalid and misleading test to, is another.

I found this job opening entirely by myself, without his input and without realizing at the time I was applying that they had acquired the other company. If I tell him about it, there is some chance he will be really upset by it and/or try to muscle in on the process.

And what am I gonna say when I get to the interview?

Do I call up HR and explain before they interview me? Suicide.

Do I turn up to the interview and wait for them to bring it up, and explain then?

Do I bring it up myself?

What if I said, "Oh, but that test isn't valid - I didn't do it under closed-book conditions. I got the wrong end of the stick about that. No, no, I'm afraid I had to really thumb through my books to work out those answers."

This might raise questions of why my agent didn't tell them this in the first place, but I think that's his lookout. I told him that I didn't want the test submitted unless the situation was clear.

[brick wall]

--------------------
Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.

Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076

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I'd definitely say you're morally safe not bringing it up unless it comes up because you have no reason to believe they have seen the test.

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534

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Thanks, Gwai. I think you're right.

--------------------
Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.

Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Geneviève

Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
# 9098

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Yes, I agree with Gwai. There is honesty and then there is rushing in and putting your foot in your mouth.
It is quite possible nothing has been shared. Never underestimate the inefficiency of a bureacracy.
If the question does come up, I would think the best thing is to have a short--not longwinded at all--explanation that puts the matter of your doing the test open book and the agent sending it in as a "matter of miscommunication" between the two of you. Be frank about your lack of skill, if need be, and emphasize how quick you can learn (BTW, why are they so upset if someone uses books; surely at work one is allowed to check resources to make sure the task is being done correctly?). You don't want to make your agent look bad because it might look as if you are someone who badmouths others.
FWIW, my advice. good luck.

Posts: 4336 | From: Eastern US | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534

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You're quite right, of course, DaisyM.

Today, three rejections, five new applications.

Scheduled interview count remains unchanged at one.

Still, that one would be interesting, doable (if the advert was anything to go by), a major plus on my CV, would probably pay what I'm looking for, and would open the way to raking in the spondoolies in the future.

--------------------
Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.

Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Geneviève

Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
# 9098

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Here's hoping!!!

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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)

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HenryT

Canadian Anglican
# 3722

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After searching since January, I have signed the offer paperwork today. Deo gratias!

My sincere thanks for those who included me in their prayers. And I offer prayers for all who are looking.

[ 27. June 2007, 03:48: Message edited by: Henry Troup ]

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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788

Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Telepath
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# 3534

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Yay for Henry!!!

--------------------
Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.

Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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Well, everyone.

I have received two offers *today*. This has never happened before.

Neither is for my favorite of the positions I've interviewed for recently - will call in the am to see if they've made a decision.

I am absolutely boggled!

(I ask for prayers for proper discernment.)

Much love to those of you still looking. Especially Miss Telepath, so she can get her kitteh and keep herself in smart clothes.

Charlotte

--------------------
WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804

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Here I'm waiting as references are taken up.

Prayers for all of us!

Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Telepath
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Yay for Amazing Grace!

I'm struggling to hold my head up. It takes work to rise above being told, many times a day, that I have no real skills or experience.

I thought that getting a distinction would cure me of always feeling stupid and guilty, and give me a feeling of security about my abilities, but I am now, in my heart of hearts, convinced that I would be incapable of doing any job. So my overall attitude is highly apologetic, which is not exactly going to help me.

I did feel encouraged for a few minutes the other night when someone urged me to do a PhD. Too bad there's no money in that! But she still wants me to do a presentation about my work, so that's flattering. The fact of speaking about my own research will probably translate into a better CV. Too bad the skill is too cutting-edge for any recruiter to have ever heard of it.

Applied to three companies that use ontology-driven technology earlier this week, and they haven't YET bothered to tell me that I have no real skills or experience, but I expect they will if I chase them up.

Whatever it is I'm doing wrong, I wish I would find out what it is, stop doing it, and do whatever the right thing is instead.

I have never been unemployed this long before.

--------------------
Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.

Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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OK folks. I'm noodling here, because I am in this weird position of having two offers and needing to decide quickly. Please chime in as you like; this is part of my reality check. I do plan to talk to some people F2F today as well.

Position 1 - Fulltime permanent, with benefits including health insurance. At a local university, so perks include gym and education benefits.

Position 2 - 6 mos full-time contract position. Pays excellent hourly rate but no benefits (paid time off/insurance/education). The rate is, however, more than sufficient to cover my overhead for same (barring major med emergencies that have me off work for a while) and support me in the style to which I have been accustomed. Strong possibility of contract-to-hire.

Commutes are similar (reverse-direction) and I had a similar rapport with both hiring teams. Both companies are stable employers and pass my basic morals check.

Now, the strict costs/benefit analysis would say "take the permanent job". However ... at the moment I'm leaning towards the contract for the following reasons:

1) More challenging work (instead of reinventing the wheel), but still leveraging my present experience
2) Organization seems less chaotic
3) For contract phase, will probably not involve on-call work, and definitely minimal OT
4) Very public-transit accessible in case I can't/don't feel like driving
5) offices are just nicer [Smile] (slightly more formal but not overly so)
6) project-based work probably means I can flex my hours a lot more
7) Offer #1 offices are located very close to the Hayward Fault, which is overdue for A Big One. (earthquake) I would have to pass under said fault to travel to/from #2, but I wouldn't be sitting on top of it all day.

As to the having to look again, six months would put me at the start of the year, which isn't a bad time to be looking, and I still have savings (and could re-apply for UI, I guess). If I don't get offered a perm position.

I did speak with Potential #3 and was turned down politely, but the door may reopen there in six months (esp. since I will be non-rusty).

Soooo ... whatchoo think? Am I nuts for thinking of taking a contract over a perm job?

Charlotte

--------------------
WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076

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I think it's a question of security. In my opinion, some of the relevant questions would be: How worried are you about having to get a job when the contract one is over if it does end? How easy is it likely to be a job and will your savings last as long as it takes.

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged



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