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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Monarchies
Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I do wish France would make an effort and let His Royal Highness Prince Louis Alphonse of Bourbon, Duke of Anjou (His Majesty to us legitimists) have a go.

I think that, at times during President Sarkozy's term, he would have had a fighting chance
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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I do wish France would make an effort and let His Royal Highness Prince Louis Alphonse of Bourbon, Duke of Anjou (His Majesty to us legitimists) have a go.

For a republic of such (relatively) long standing France seems to possess an embarrassment of riches when it comes to royal pretenders. Might I suggest that some kind of televised competition between the various claimants would be the most amusing way to restore some form of French monarchy?

Of course there are other ways deposed royals can influence the course of their nations. The most straightforward would seem to be the path chosen by Simeon II of Bulgaria, who simply ran for (and was elected) Prime Minister after the collapse of Communism. Of course this seems to violate the primary understanding of the role of monarchy, at least as advanced on this thread, in that it involves doing work and providing direction for the nation.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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sebby
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Even better, the solution seen in George Bernard Shaw's play The Apple Cart.

A popular English king in the face of an awkward prime minister with republican tendencies, abdicates and goes to the polls himself. Elected to power by the people, he assumes the throne and reigns with almost absolutist powers.

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sebhyatt

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Even better, the solution seen in George Bernard Shaw's play The Apple Cart.

A popular English king in the face of an awkward prime minister with republican tendencies, abdicates and goes to the polls himself. Elected to power by the people, he assumes the throne and reigns with almost absolutist powers.

A charismatic dictator with unchecked power? What could possibly go wrong? [Roll Eyes]

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I do wish France would make an effort and let His Royal Highness Prince Louis Alphonse of Bourbon, Duke of Anjou (His Majesty to us legitimists) have a go.

For a republic of such (relatively) long standing France seems to possess an embarrassment of riches when it comes to royal pretenders. Might I suggest that some kind of televised competition between the various claimants would be the most amusing way to restore some form of French monarchy?
It should be in Jeux Sans Frontières/It's a Knockout format. There must be plenty of really silly things to do, embarrassing costumes, gigantic feet, water, custard pies, the lot. Keith Chegwin and the Duchess of York should be the presenters.

More seriously, do any of these 'never was'es really believe they ever will be?

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sebby
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Interesting point. But I hope one of them will one day. And that a Shah will be retored to Iran.

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sebhyatt

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Zach82
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quote:
Interesting point. But I hope one of them will one day. And that a Shah will be retored to Iran.
Considering the monarchies of both countries were actually the source of, rather than a bulwark against, major instability, one of them is doing perfectly fine without one, and no one but nobodies in either country misses them in the least, I'm kinda curious why.

All this romantic talk about monarchy completely forgets that a boat load of countries were desperate to get rid of theirs.

[ 27. October 2012, 13:03: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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sebby
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ah the days when one proposed the deposed Shah as University Chancellor...

Doing well without one? The 'Supreme Ruler'..the 'Ayatollah Blah Blah'...the development of... [Killing me]

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sebhyatt

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Zach82
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Comparing the best monarchies to the worst republics isn't as compelling an argument for monarchy as you seem to imagine.
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Zach82
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quote:
Doing well without one? The 'Supreme Ruler'..the 'Ayatollah Blah Blah'...the development of...
I said one of them was doing well enough without one, by the by.

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
... while I support the institution, its foreign aspect gives it a limited life span.

We need to note that the younger Windsors are less oriented to their non-UK identity-- they don't have the multi-national consciousness required of the job... When the Queen goes (presumably toward the end of the current century), the strong emotional connexion will largely go with her. Charles' grénola consciousness will keep him in the Canadian job but, after that....

Really? You think the Queen will last until the end of the century? At 84 there's every possibility she might not last the decade out!

Secondly, did you see the reception the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge received in their recent overseas tour? The Monarchy will be every bit as popular. Don't forget, under Victoria, post Albert, the Monarch was very unpopular but it came back. There will be no diminution of popularity for the Monarch, even overseas, especially when we have King William.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
... while I support the institution, its foreign aspect gives it a limited life span.

We need to note that the younger Windsors are less oriented to their non-UK identity-- they don't have the multi-national consciousness required of the job... When the Queen goes (presumably toward the end of the current century), the strong emotional connexion will largely go with her. Charles' grénola consciousness will keep him in the Canadian job but, after that....

Really? You think the Queen will last until the end of the century? At 84 there's every possibility she might not last the decade out!

Secondly, did you see the reception the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge received in their recent overseas tour? The Monarchy will be every bit as popular. Don't forget, under Victoria, post Albert, the Monarch was very unpopular but it came back. There will be no diminution of popularity for the Monarch, even overseas, especially when we have King William.

Given that the Queen Mother, pickled in gin, managed a full century, I would not be surprised if HM, who watches her diet and takes regular exercise, should not manage much more. I would not be surprised if she outlived a good number of shipmates.

Your reference to a succesful overseas tour helps prove my point. In theory, we're not overseas-- she's supposed to be our head of state. The reality is that the Queen is perhaps the only person (aside from 73 rabid monarchists here) who believes that she is not overseas and, for the majority of Canadians, the foreign-ness is the problem.

I will allow that, if William puts his time in and makes himself belieable in French, he will manage well here. I saw him and his brother some years ago at a gathering of middle and high school students in Vancouver (perhaps 10% were of British and Irish extraction--- the strong majority were Chinese, Filipino or South Asian) and they received a reception enthusiastic enough to puzzle bureaucrats, media and academics.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
ah the days when one proposed the deposed Shah as University Chancellor...

Doing well without one? The 'Supreme Ruler'..the 'Ayatollah Blah Blah'...the development of... [Killing me]

Which brings us back to the question of why the Shah was a "monarch" but Kim Jong-un is a "dictator"?

And I'm not sure that introducing secret police and electroshock torture would be considered a positive development by most universities.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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sebby
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HM the Queen is a fluent French speaker. When her children were younger and at home, it was her custom to insist that one day a week the whole family should speak in French all day.

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sebhyatt

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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A laudable practice that should be revived. Canada is the world-centre of excellence for teaching French to English-speakers. If William can manage decent French, the monarchy will be OK with a new cute royal baby.

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Godric
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I like to explore the mediatized Royal houses of the former Holy Roman Empire (HRE) which are so very different to the UK.

Such lines have all the trappings of Royalty and very few, if any, of the problems of Monarchy in the modern world. The dynasties of the former HRE have never completely expired and actually exisit. The idea of a monarchy disappearing is questionable when we consider families like the "Hohenlohe-Waldenburg-Schillingsfürst" who remain "Serene Highness" and as Royal as they come although they haven't ruled anything for years.

I write about funerals and burials at http://godsacre.blogspot.co.uk/

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I write on funerals and burials http://godsacre.blogspot.co.uk/

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sebby
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How marvellous. The line is there, and the blue blood, so that's all that really mattters.

That said, I can never bring myself when referring to His Majesty to say 'ex' King Constantine of Greece.

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sebhyatt

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Godric:
I like to explore the mediatized Royal houses of the former Holy Roman Empire (HRE) which are so very different to the UK.

Such lines have all the trappings of Royalty and very few, if any, of the problems of Monarchy in the modern world. The dynasties of the former HRE have never completely expired and actually exisit. The idea of a monarchy disappearing is questionable when we consider families like the "Hohenlohe-Waldenburg-Schillingsfürst" who remain "Serene Highness" and as Royal as they come although they haven't ruled anything for years.

I write about funerals and burials at http://godsacre.blogspot.co.uk/

Surely, if they haven't ruled anything for years and are never likely to, they aren't real monarchs. That's like the squire of some village in the West Midlands claiming to be the true king of the Hwicce.

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Yerevan
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To go back a long way and launch a tangent...

quote:
Mind you, in my five years in Ireland, I saw four presidents come and go, including a very major presidential constitutional crisis.
No offence, but that isn't quite accurate. The Irish presidency is actually a monotonously stable institution. The only period which even comes close to what you've outlined was the early 70s, which went like this:

Eamon de Valera: came to the end of a fourteen year tenure in 1973
Erskine Childers: Took office in 1973. Died of natural causes in 1974.
Cearbhall O Dalaigh: Took office in 1974. Resigned in 1976 over constitutional issues (in literally the only remoting exciting incident in the office's entire history).
Patrick Hillery: Took office in 1976. Lasted for fourteen years.

In fact the Irish presidency is so boring that we generally forget it exists most of the time (or at least until we want someone to open a new public toilet in Borris-on-Ossory). Having lived in both the UK and the Irish Republic, I think its infinitely preferable to the monarchy, not at least because no one knows or cares about the president's spouse/children/third cousins twice removed.

[ 28. October 2012, 18:22: Message edited by: Yerevan ]

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Yerevan
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Oh, and the Irish constitution also contains a clause which confines the presidency to octogenarians, Protestants and women called Mary.
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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
To go back a long way and launch a tangent...

quote:
Mind you, in my five years in Ireland, I saw four presidents come and go, including a very major presidential constitutional crisis.
No offence, but that isn't quite accurate. The Irish presidency is actually a monotonously stable institution. The only period which even comes close to what you've outlined was the early 70s, which went like this:

Eamon de Valera: came to the end of a fourteen year tenure in 1973
Erskine Childers: Took office in 1973. Died of natural causes in 1974.
Cearbhall O Dalaigh: Took office in 1974. Resigned in 1976 over constitutional issues (in literally the only remoting exciting incident in the office's entire history).
Patrick Hillery: Took office in 1976. Lasted for fourteen years.

In fact the Irish presidency is so boring that we generally forget it exists most of the time (or at least until we want someone to open a new public toilet in Borris-on-Ossory). Having lived in both the UK and the Irish Republic, I think its infinitely preferable to the monarchy, not at least because no one knows or cares about the president's spouse/children/third cousins twice removed.

I am not offended, but I am puzzled: indeed, your list in the second paragraph directly contradicts your statement.

While it is not typical of the 70 years of the Irish presidency, this sequence of events caused much embarrasment at the time among my Irish friends as well as local humourists (notably in Magill magazine), who used it as an example of the banana-republic life of Ireland at that period.

Second, the presidency is hardly ignored, nor ignorable (aside from Paddy Hillery's tenure, largely spent on golf courses)-- recent occupants have been very active and are well-reported and noticed. I frequently mention the cold war between Charlie Haughey and Mary Robinson and how her serenely vicious passive-aggressive tactics (which I applauded) was critical in ending his Taoiseach-ship. And who would forget Dana's presidential campaign? or Brian Lenihan's meltdown?

After a succession of eminent figures too aged to do much (Hyde, O Dalaigh) and partisan figures or party hacks, the Irish have been as fortunate in their recent presidents as the House of Windsor with its current occupant.

I do agree with Yerevan on the unfortunate effects of press attention on family members-- more for the negative effects it has on them than on any civic impact. Even Princess Anne's insistence that her kids have no titles has not spared them the attention of the press amd their distasteful soap opera fetishising of the institution (which also transfers to presidential families-- ask Chelsea Clinton or anyone descended from Joseph Kennedy).

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sebby
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quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Oh, and the Irish constitution also contains a clause which confines the presidency to octogenarians, Protestants and women called Mary.

Haha yes. Very boring. I'll go for robes, crowns, titles and the lot every time.

If one was having Christmas dinner, one would hardly want a slab of turkey just slapped on a plate with noting else. The trimmings are most desirable.

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sebhyatt

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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by Godric:
I like to explore the mediatized Royal houses of the former Holy Roman Empire (HRE) which are so very different to the UK.

Such lines have all the trappings of Royalty and very few, if any, of the problems of Monarchy in the modern world. The dynasties of the former HRE have never completely expired and actually exisit. The idea of a monarchy disappearing is questionable when we consider families like the "Hohenlohe-Waldenburg-Schillingsfürst" who remain "Serene Highness" and as Royal as they come although they haven't ruled anything for years.

I write about funerals and burials at http://godsacre.blogspot.co.uk/

They may refer to themselves as "Serene Highness" but it has no official endorsement from the German State surely?
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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by Godric:
I like to explore the mediatized Royal houses of the former Holy Roman Empire (HRE) which are so very different to the UK.

Such lines have all the trappings of Royalty and very few, if any, of the problems of Monarchy in the modern world. The dynasties of the former HRE have never completely expired and actually exisit. The idea of a monarchy disappearing is questionable when we consider families like the "Hohenlohe-Waldenburg-Schillingsfürst" who remain "Serene Highness" and as Royal as they come although they haven't ruled anything for years.

I write about funerals and burials at http://godsacre.blogspot.co.uk/

They may refer to themselves as "Serene Highness" but it has no official endorsement from the German State surely?
I am reliably informed by a hiking acquaintance whose firm calves and clear complexion testify to her membership of the house of Saxe-Somethingburg that Germany officialdom may not take note of their titles. Accordingly, titles are part of their given name when their births are registered, so that one will be Honey Boo-boo Prinzessin von Arkansas, with von Arkansas being the surname. Some people have managed to get the title incorporated into their surname with the connivance of friendly (loyal, or perhaps just anti-Prussian) officials, so you will have Tagg Graf von Palin zu Wasilla, whose given name will just be Tagg, and the rest a family name.

Another acquaintance, a teacher from Hanover, has a member of the House of Cobourg in her 4th form who does not use the "von" in class, although it is on her official forms. The teacher does not think that anyone uses her title, but "everybody knows." She is, in any case, a good student and her parents asked that no leeway at all be given her.

I gather from the media that the Wittelsbachs in Bavaria still retain a semi-official status, recognized by state authorities, undertaking minor official duties with police escorts and salutes etc etc, but I've not seen that confirmed. The Bavarian royal family behaved with decency during the war, unlike some houses where portraits of senior members in Nazi regalia have to be hidden from public view.

For what it's worth, they drop the titles should they become Canadian citizens. While there is always a theoretical possibility that cabinet could permit the use of a royal or princely title, I would bet any amount of money that no serious consideration would be given to any such application. A Canadian senator with an Italian title asked for a formal opinion on whether or not she could use it, and she got her clarification (negative).

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Enoch
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I don't think there's anything to stop anyone using any title here as long as it isn't a UK one - which of course have actual rights, duties and consequences - and they aren't trying to pass themselves of as someone else who is really is entitled to that name. This means that if you are a social climber, you must choose a foreign title to award yourself.

If one wants to avoid mockery, it is best not to choose 'Count'.

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sebby
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I don't think there's anything to stop anyone using any title here as long as it isn't a UK one - which of course have actual rights, duties and consequences - and they aren't trying to pass themselves of as someone else who is really is entitled to that name. This means that if you are a social climber, you must choose a foreign title to award yourself.

If one wants to avoid mockery, it is best not to choose 'Count'.

There are a number of residents of the UK who have foreign titles. These are usually the citizens or subjects of another nation which may or may not, officially recognise the title. Clearly these titles are used if it is the holders wish, as it is polite to use the form of address desired by the person.

In the UK anyone can call themselves anything they like, as long it is not meant to deceive or to gain financial reward fraudulently.

However offically recognised titles are somewhat different. There is a system which registers and regulates them.

As with medals, anyone can make up a bit of bling (even the esteemed Royal British Legion has done that in issuing commemorative 'National Service medals') but these have no offical standing. It is strictly forbidden to wear such items on a British military uniform. Neither is it permissble to wear legitimately awarded foreign decorations, unless the Sovereign has granted permission. This happens only VERY rarely. This has happened with NATO awards given for service in the Balkans. The ISAF medal awarded to international troops in Afghanistan cannot be worn by UK personnel and is usally thrown into a draw or pinned on their teddy bears. A legitimate campaign medal is issued instead with the Queen head on it.

Norman St John Sevas once turned up to something when he was a minister wearing the Order of St Lazarus. The Queen actually said to him 'what on earth is THAT?' to the amusement of bystanders.

Later, he received a letter from the Lord Chamberlain's department saying it was not to be worn again on offical occasions or on any British military base. I never saw him wear it again.

People who buy 'Lordships of the manor' are foolish if they think it makes them 'Lords' or 'peers'.

To end, one is reminded of the words (I think) of Charles II to a bumptious and rude courtier:

Laughing, the King said: 'I can make you a nobleman whenever I like; but even your Sovereign cannot make you a gentleman.'

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sebhyatt

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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There is, most interestingly, the Barons de Longueuil, the only Title of Nobility in Canada with official standing. It was granted by Louis XIV and it's still recognized. The title is held by Michael Grant, a Scotsman who is a third cousin of the late Queen Mother.

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Lothiriel
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And then there's the notorious Conrad Black, Baron of Crossharbour, who had to renounce his Canadian citizenship in 2001 in order to accept his British title (he had been a dual Canadian and British citizen).

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Uncle Pete

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Still on a Canadian note, Mr Ken Thomson of Toronto, a reclusive millionaire who controls much media is known as Lord Thomson of Fleet in the United Kingdom.

I know of the current Marquess of Ely. I went to Kindergarten with his youngest brother, when they were plain Masters. Their father acceded to the title on the extinction of a senior line of his house. His daughter was latterly a bishop suffragan in the Diocese of Toronto.

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Even more so than I was before

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Uncle Pete

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Further to the above, I regret that I had forgotten that the 2nd Lord Thomson shuffled off his mortal coil some years back, and his son David now has custody of the family multi-billions (Thomson-Reuters). He is, of course, the 3rd Baron of that ancient line, created for his grandfather in 1964.

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Even more so than I was before

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Lothiriel
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# 15561

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Ah, yes, Ann Tottenham (daughter of Marquess of Ely) -- I met her at an induction service at our church just yesterday!

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Posts: 538 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Timothy the Obscure

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# 292

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This is getting boring. So just to stir it up (not that I don't mean it): There is not and never has been any such thing as a legitimate monarch. The only true sovereignty belongs to the people, and anyone who claims it in their own right is a usurper.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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Mudfrog
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# 8116

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quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
This is getting boring. So just to stir it up (not that I don't mean it): There is not and never has been any such thing as a legitimate monarch. The only true sovereignty belongs to the people, and anyone who claims it in their own right is a usurper.

That's part of the Coronation ceremony - the acclamation by the people. Therefore, once crowned the monarch is legitimate.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Have you tried acclaiming someone who is not pre-selected by birth ? Did you manage to avoid a civil war ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Have you tried acclaiming someone who is not pre-selected by birth ? Did you manage to avoid a civil war ?

Often folks got the war out of the way first, before doing the acclamation.

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Horseman Bree
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# 5290

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So, T. the O., King Haakon VII of Norway, or the notable WilliamandMary (William III) of England were not legitimate because their elections were fraud?

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It's Not That Simple

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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472

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One can also argue that Juan Carlos of Spain was elected, or perhaps more precisely, confirmed by election, with the 1978 referendum. That, at least, was the position taken by the Government of the Spanish Republic (in exile, in Mexico), which then turned the seals of the republic to him for safekeeping.
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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
This is getting boring. So just to stir it up (not that I don't mean it): There is not and never has been any such thing as a legitimate monarch. The only true sovereignty belongs to the people, and anyone who claims it in their own right is a usurper.

That's part of the Coronation ceremony - the acclamation by the people. Therefore, once crowned the monarch is legitimate.
But if i shouted loudly, during the acclamation, that i didn't agree, I'd be thrown out of the abbey.

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Timothy the Obscure

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# 292

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OK, a reminder not to post while drinking. So to elaborate and clarify... The conditions that make a government legitimate:

  • 1. Its powers are derived from the consent of the governed.
  • 2. That consent is revocable (while no particular mechanism is required, regular elections have been the best demonstrated so far).
  • 3. The principle of majority rule determines both consent and other matters.
  • 4. The franchise is extended to all competent adults.
  • 5. The rights of minorities are protected, especially those rights that might enable minorities to win others over to their way of thinking and so become majorities (e.g., freedom of speech, association, and assembly).

I've probably left out a couple of things, but on the whole I'd consider a government legitimate to the extent it embodies those principles.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472

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I think most Commonwealth and European monarchies meet Tim the Obscure's tests, particularly as he has not insisted on a specific mechanism for withdrawal of consent.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Godric
Apprentice
# 17135

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We've talked a lot about the idea of Monarchy and Enoch has questioned the ability of a Monarchy to survive over time without actually ruling over a geographical territory.

However, I want to raise the idea of a Monarchy without territoriality or a monarchy with a limited claim to territoriality. The Order of Saint John of Malta (SMOM) is one idea of a Monarchy that defies the usual ideas of Monarchy and yet the Grand Master holds the title of "Prince" with a break in the succession. The Papacy has a similar claim to a limited land mass. Similarly, Monaco has survived without much land although with an adoptive succession at one point.

Could we argue that an ordination to the priesthood and a consecrated Monarch amount to a similar process. When a Monarch has the oil applied is s/he the chosen of God? Can that consecration survive through time and defy the judgement of history? [Overused]

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Enoch
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# 14322

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Is the Grand Master of the Order of St John the sovereign of Malta with any day to day role at all in the day to day affairs of that country?

Yes, he may be able to issue stamps. But does the Pope's main significance in 2012 derive from the fact that he is head of state of a small area of Rome called Vatican City?

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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Is the Grand Master of the Order of St John the sovereign of Malta with any day to day role at all in the day to day affairs of that country?

Yes, he may be able to issue stamps. But does the Pope's main significance in 2012 derive from the fact that he is head of state of a small area of Rome called Vatican City?

Apparently he chairs the council and deals directly with department heads. In any case, the Sovereign Order of Malta appears to be a republic. That the president-for-life is called the Grand Master is not relevant (We need to remember that SMOM postage is not universally recognized, as it is not in the UPU. A clerical acquaintance studying in Rome discovered this, as his mail went to Canada, but not to the US). The head of the Venetian republic was entitled the Doge, but he was still president-for-life, albeit with restricted powers. Kim Jong Um is theoretically the Chairman of the Presidium but, by some definitions, he is a monarch, even if Korea is a republic. You figure it out.

There is an argument that the Vatican City State is also an ecclesiastical republic, given that the Bishop of Rome is elected. The only other ecclesiastical head of state is the Dalai Lama, but he seems to have retired his power to an exile assembly.

Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I don't think there's anything to stop anyone using any title here as long as it isn't a UK one - which of course have actual rights, duties and consequences - and they aren't trying to pass themselves of as someone else who is really is entitled to that name. This means that if you are a social climber, you must choose a foreign title to award yourself.

If one wants to avoid mockery, it is best not to choose 'Count'.

Or ideally get a foreign title awarded to you as a cousin of one of my Irish Catholic 18th century ancestors did from the Empress Maria Therese. For good measure I strongly suspected he created a mostly fictitious ancestry going back to a patrilineal ancestor who came over with William the Conqueror and who married a French princess; threw an accent into the name to make it D'Alton instead of Dalton (though that might have been a somewhat earlier ancestor); got several of his kin ennobled also; and got a royal license from George III to use the title, Count, in Britain. It didn't work out well for him.

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