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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Imperialism and Racism in Fantasy Novels?
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
...How you got that out of what I said is beyond me....
We've had enough arguments by now to convince me that this line ought be an instant end to the argument, for the sake of you, me, and everyone on this thread alike.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Rowling has made a world where slavery is OK and the happy slave myth is true. If she didn't want people asking questions about that, she shouldn't have written it.
But is that what she has done? Or has she created a world where slavery of house elves exists and where the status quo is, for the most part*, accepted, but where the reader can make judgments as to the morality of it all. Is JKR really saying that the house elves are happy slaves, or is she suggesting that they have been conditioned to think they are doiong what they are "supposed" to do, that they have effectively bought into what they have been told for so long?
It actually seems to me that there are many clues throughout the books that we as readers are supposed to question the status quo as it is presented.
* Only two characters never seem to accept the status quo -- Hermione and Dumbledore. But their approach is different. Hermione crusades for what she knows is right, but in doing so fails to identify with and understand the subjects of her crusade, and so fails not only to persuade fellow wizards and witches but also fails to persuade those whom she would help.
Dumbledore, on the other hand, seems to tolerate the institution but at the same treat the house elves as he believes they should be treated (if his treatment of Dobby and Winky is any indication), in the apparent hope that they will one day see in themselves the personal value he sees them and will realize that they do indeed have freedom and right to make choices for themselves. Both attitudes have some paternalism about them, but I think they also point to the reality (within the story) that the situation of house elves is a complicated problem that defied easy fixes.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
...How you got that out of what I said is beyond me....
We've had enough arguments by now to convince me that this line ought be an instant end to the argument, for the sake of you, me, and everyone on this thread alike.
It was. Read the rest of the post where I acknowledged what you said!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
But is that what she has done?
It sure looks that way to me. The house elves are depicted as loving it, and when Winky is freed she collapses into despair and alcoholism. Dobby is thought to be bizarre for liking to get paid for his labors.
And the fact that this slavery is so benign is what makes it so unbelievable.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
But is that what she has done?
It sure looks that way to me. The house elves are depicted as loving it, and when Winky is freed she collapses into despair and alcoholism. Dobby is thought to be bizarre for liking to get paid for his labors.
But Dobby is also presented as being right.
I'm not so sure the house elves are depicted as really loving it, as much as they are depicted as not knowing, Dobby excepted, that they have a choice not to love it.
[ 30. October 2012, 15:54: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
House elves aren't human.
But they are people, and that is what really matters
But it means that projecting our thoughts onto them is illogical. I scarcely want to live in the mountains the way the giants do, in that world. Are the giants being abused? Perhaps, if they have been chased into the mountains, I don't remember, but not by definition yes. If the giants want to live in the mountains, then they are not abused even if no human would ever find the mountains hospitable. Why can that kind of thinking not apply to other non-humans?
Yes, this is where the logic breaks down for me as well.
It seems to me that the entire purpose of populating a world with non-human sentient characters is to have them NOT share human values and aspirations. Otherwise there's little point.
The whole goal is to provide a contrast. A contrast we're meant to react to.
I've mentioned Stephen Donaldson before. In his one SF series, the alien race called the Amnion has an emphasis on uniformity and assimilation. Rather akin to the Borg in Star Trek I suspect, although without the same technological angles. In both of those cases, it seems to me, the entire purpose is to focus on the value we place on individuality - and the scariness of the prospect of losing that individuality.
It doesn't make any sense to ascribe human motivations and goals and values to those races, or to treat them as if they're meant to model human behaviour. They're actually designed to do the opposite: to be non-human.
(Indeed, in Donaldson's books, one of the critical plot points is that the Amnion are attempting to assimilate humans without losing some aspects of their humanity that would have strategic advantage, and are finding it a real struggle.)
If an author wants to model human behaviour, the best character for that is going to be human. Non-human characters exist as a contrast to human behaviour. If house elves are indeed happy slaves, then surely the whole point is that this in contrast to a human, who wouldn't be.
[ 30. October 2012, 15:56: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Zach82: You're not the first to bring up examples like this. It seems the point is that abolition is a silly cause for people who don't really know what's good for the slaves.
Certainly that is what Rowling seems to imply when Hermione's activism. Is that your argument here?
Like I said, I haven't read or watched the Harry Potter series, so I can't comment Hermione's activism. But in general, I'm with Marvin the Martin on this: I disagree with the idea that people who have taken a free decision to be enslaved (without being put under pressure to take this decision, and that's a big provision), must be liberated.
An example to me would be certain kinds of monks. They give up large freedoms and abide to strict rules (I think they don't even receive payment, but I'm not sure about that). If they freely choose this life, then I don't think they should be 'liberated'.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I disagree with the idea that people who have taken a free decision to be enslaved (without being put under pressure to take this decision, and that's a big provision), must be liberated.
An example to me would be certain kinds of monks.
The person I was mostly thinking of is a friend of my wife's who freely decided to surrender all autonomy to her husband when she married. He now controls her entire life, without exception.
Now, I think that's a horrible (and possibly even abusive) way to arrange a marriage - and it's certainly close enough to slavery to be relevant on this thread. But I have to face the fact that it's what she wants, it's what makes her happy, and no matter what my opinions on the matter are I would be wrong to try to "save" her from this relationship.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
House elves aren't real, but the proposition "slavery is OK so long as the slaves like it" is a very real one, and has been used over and over again throughout history to justify unjust exploitation.
Are you saying real world issues are completely irrelevant in literature? I know it's a fantasy world, but it's still basically like ours. It doesn't seem SO different that our own moral scruples become basically irrelevant. Especially when the whole moral of the series seems to be the inherent dignity of our fellow humans. At least, I think that is the point, as much as Rowling undercuts it again and again.
Most of us don't have the chance to own slave plantations, but we are likely to be in the situation of wanting to help people who don't themselves want to be helped. So if we are going to evaluate the morality of the treatment of elves as an exercise in real-world ethics, we should look at the second point at least as closely as the first.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Do the house elves freely choose their lot? Seeing as house elves are portrayed as thinking, feeling, free willed creatures, it doesn't seem to me that they HAVE to find all their fulfillment in servitude. The narrative doesn't give any credence to Hermione's objection that they have simply been raised to never consider any other good but servitude, but I do.
Just to make it clear, I am framing the issue as either "Rowling proposes the possibility of a world where slavery is a happy proposition," or "She didn't think through this happy slave thing very much." Pick your poison, I say.
From my end, slavery is an a cruel institution in every possible world, and thinking she is a bad writer is therefore a charity.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Inger
Shipmate
# 15285
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Posted
A comparison might be made with the golems in Pratchett's books, especially Feet of Clay. They are created to work, they know that is their purpose in life and they have no problem with that. But they are also slaves, and when the opportunity offers, they buy themselves free, rejecting the option of fighting for freedom. And when they are free, they continue to want to work, but now for money (in order, one understands, to buy the freedom of other golems, initially at least).
To my mind a rather more acceptable situation than Rowling's.
Posts: 332 | From: Newcastle, UK | Registered: Nov 2009
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I suppose we could encourage the use of a general disclaimer? Such as
"The opinions, overt or implied, of the characters in this book should not be seen as a reflection of the opinions of the author".
To be honest, it frightens me that we live in a world where such things are not understood without being written down.
Agreed.
It's a shame, orfeo, but IME it's no longer safe to make too many assumptions about shared understandings, values, "common sense", etc. Spelling things out runs the risk of "well, everyone knows that". Actually, some folks don't. Or just haven't joined up the dots.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
...despite their sentience and independence of thought, they [droids] were created specifically in order to serve their organic masters.
Which makes the question "is it right to keep droid slaves" a whole lot easier to answer: viz. yes it is. That's why they exist in the first place. That's what they're for.
Try that line on a Cylon and see what it gets you
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Do the house elves freely choose their lot? Seeing as house elves are portrayed as thinking, feeling, free willed creatures, it doesn't seem to me that they HAVE to find all their fulfillment in servitude. The narrative doesn't give any credence to Hermione's objection that they have simply been raised to never consider any other good but servitude, but I do.
Just to make it clear, I am framing the issue as either "Rowling proposes the possibility of a world where slavery is a happy proposition," or "She didn't think through this happy slave thing very much." Pick your poison, I say.
I think there is a third way to frame the issue: "Rowling proposes a world where injustices persist even after the defeat of the evil antagonist, and she leaves it to the reader to discern that the world she created is not a perfect world." But I think the issue can be framed this way because I think the narrative overall does give credence to Hermione's objections (though not necessarily her methods), even if most characters in the books do not give such credence.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Rowling didn't invent house elves and their condition of bondage. They come from European folk tales, with a particular form, the brownie, in Scotland. The release on the giving of clothes is in a tale found in school reading books, about a shoemaker who is helped by elves, and accidentally releases them (you should never thank one of Those People) by making them clothes. This is seen as wrong in the story. I'm not sure if it comes from Grimm, but is definitely authored by Trad or Anon.
(Incidentally, this isn't the only material from readers which can be found in Rowling. A series designed to encourage the poorer readers (Tim and the Hidden People) by a writer called Sheila McCullach (sp?) included a Night Bus with similar properties to Rowling's, among other things, and itself included material strongly reminiscent of Masefield's Kay Harker books, which did not noticeably arrive in Rowling. These books were so good I took the entire three series home one night and read through the lot. Then someone lost the last book, and I had to borrow it from another school and make an illegal copy so no-one would be left bereft of resolution.)
Not many miles from where I live is an old house with something not unrelated to house elf. People moved in. started renovations, found a skull - I think in a niche by the chimney. Had it taken to the church for burial, whereupon all sorts of bad stuff started to happen. (I read this in a book on myths and legends of Britain published by Readers Digest which I do not have easily to hand.) So they restored the skull and all was well. Apparently. A protector of the house was enslaved to the house. (Not the family.)
As, presumably, the ghosts of foundation burials were in pagan societies. Which were often infants. Who would have looked a bit like representations of house elves.
So, having decided to use these jolly little beings from folklore, Rowling had to work within the tradition of their being bound. Thus creating a problem for herself.
There is a Scottish or Irish tale of a family which found one of these beings a bit of a problem, and nothing they could do would get rid of it, so they went to the local cunning man for advice, and were told that they would have to leave, and do it secretly (there were conditions for this which I cannot remember). Off they set with all their possessions piled on the cart, and met a neighbour. "What are you doing?" says he, and the brounie pops his head out of the heap and shrieks "We're flitting!". Bound to the family, presumably.
Anyway. Rowling did not invent a world involving happy slaves, she absorbed it from folklore and was stuck with its problems. Which she did try to deal with.
[ 30. October 2012, 21:16: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Rowling proposes the possibility of a world where slavery is a happy
Haven't read much HP so I don't know whether house elves can be bought and sold like property, or whether they choose to adopt a particular wizard. Whether wizard society would return a tortured house elf to its owner or whether there are laws and customs about fair treatment.
You clearly don't believe that happy slavery is a possibility for humans. I'm not sure from what you've said whether you think imagining happy slavery for a non-human species is an immoral act, or just implausible, and whether it is only so if the author intends a message about humans thereby.
If instead of house elves they were talking dogs, would that make any difference ?
I suspect that you identified with Hermione's reaction, and were put out that the subsequent course of the book didn't validate that response...
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
I'm not sure "happy" is exactly the word, though it's been a while since I read the books.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I don't get it. Why must she be a rotten writer because a) she presents a complex moral situation that forces you to think, and b) she does not explicitly reward you with a big "YOU'RE RIGHT" on the final page?
A decent writer doesn't have to connect all the dots for you. Nor does she have to repeat "slavery is bad, slavery is always bad" every time a dramatic situation gets even close to the topic of slavery, even in a fictional world with magical nonhuman creatures.
You might as well chide her for not screaming about child abuse in the very first episode with the Dursleys (PAY ATTENTION READER, THIS IS BAD) or for failing to explicitly censure Horace Slughorn for greed.
Creating a provocative situation and then allowing multiple characters to each take slightly different viewpoints of it is generally considered the mark of a good writer, not a bad one. Leaving the reader to draw the proper conclusion in the end is a sign of faith in his/her intelligence.
Or do you really want your novel writers to lead you by the hand at all times, burbling morals at you at every step?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Lamb Chopped nails it.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Lamb Chopped nails it.
Yes, that includes part of what I was trying to say in an earlier post, but says it a lot more clearly. Fiction that explicitly tells all its readers "you must all react in the following way" isn't terribly interesting fiction.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
A good story may indeed have a polemical point, but ISTM that it works best if it has raised questions, rather than provided answers.
It's a bit like the old truth about planning and projects. Good plans do not predict the future, simply open the mind to some of the possibilities inherent in it.
Some of this also reminds me of the power of parables to do something similar. Confrontation by raising questions is often much more effective than direct exhortation. I suppose most of us need both the provocation and the sense of "space to make up our own minds".
In J K Rowling's case, it's possible to read far too much into "rattling good yarns". The Harry Potter series was, at least on one level, her way out of poverty. I'm sure she has been amazed at the global success and the undreamed-of wealth which has resulted from her ability to tell truly engaging stories.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Once again, the moral complexity may all be there, but I can't find it. Maybe someone could point out some scene where it really is all so ambiguous instead of just throwing out some pathetic psychoanalysis of my motivations?
I am not criticizing Rowling for being morally ambiguous anyway, and if you haven't gotten that from my posts by now, how can I trust your reading of Rowling?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
As regards Imperialism, the same point applies about the unreliability of inferring authorial approval, either from character approval or from authorial world-building decisions.
But it seems to me that taking fantasy novels in general, empires are just as likely to be portrayed as evil or corrupt as they are to be shown as glorious and benign.
Although, living as we do in polities governed by small-minded politicians who bankrupt the nation to get the money to bribe the electorate to keep them in power, the attraction of fantasising about other forms of government seems pretty obvious.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Anyway. Rowling did not invent a world involving happy slaves, she absorbed it from folklore and was stuck with its problems. Which she did try to deal with.
This. ![[Cool]](cool.gif) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Once again, the moral complexity may all be there, but I can't find it. Maybe someone could point out some scene where it really is all so ambiguous instead of just throwing out some pathetic psychoanalysis of my motivations?
Why? Why does there have to be one particular scene that has some property you desire? Why does she need to kiss your ass about slavery? She has slavery. She has characters who vocally oppose it. She has characters that don't see any problem with it. She has slaves that yearn for freedom. She has slaves that can't handle the freedom and become alcoholics.
What more do you want? Some big stamp on the cover that says, "The events and persons depicted herein are fictitious. I really don't like slavery myself and am only writing about it as an aspect of a certain culture which I have made up based partly on existing tropes from European folklore. Nothing in this book should be taken to imply that I think that slavery is in any way morally acceptable." ?
Just what do you want, and why?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Zach nails it.
Rowling's world isn't complex, or even well thought out, but she has to take responsibility for what she decides to do with elements she's taken from elsewhere. Are kids from middle class / wealthy homes likely to treat cleaners / nurses / manual workers of any kind better because they've read about House Elves? Or are they likely to be reinforced in the lazily selfish attitude, "It's all right them doing those nasty shitty jobs - it's what they're meant for after all"?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Zach nails it.
Rowling's world isn't complex, or even well thought out, but she has to take responsibility for what she decides to do with elements she's taken from elsewhere. Are kids from middle class / wealthy homes likely to treat cleaners / nurses / manual workers of any kind better because they've read about House Elves? Or are they likely to be reinforced in the lazily selfish attitude, "It's all right them doing those nasty shitty jobs - it's what they're meant for after all"?
But parallel with the theme that they don't want to be freed is the theme that you have to treat them well. e.g. Dumbledore links Sirius' death fairly clearly with the way he mistreated Kreacher.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Zach nails it.
Rowling's world isn't complex, or even well thought out, but she has to take responsibility for what she decides to do with elements she's taken from elsewhere. Are kids from middle class / wealthy homes likely to treat cleaners / nurses / manual workers of any kind better because they've read about House Elves? Or are they likely to be reinforced in the lazily selfish attitude, "It's all right them doing those nasty shitty jobs - it's what they're meant for after all"?
So you're saying that all literature is propaganda, and it has to propagandize in the exact right direction on every single point, to make sure our little urchins have all the correct feelings about things in their widdle heads?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) It always comes back to Showboat, doesn't it?
Look, the situation of the house elves is exactly the same as the situation of many oppressed peoples in the real world. Some are treated slightly bettter, others worse. Some accept their position, others resist, some can't imagine anything else. Some people recognize and speak out against oppression, others can't understand what all the fuss is about, a few try to be helpful and end up being patronizing.
JK Rowling isn't writing stories about house-elf liberation. She's writing about house elves to try to get readers to recognize that there is socially acceptable prejudice / racism / classism in the world the readers live in. There really are people who say, "Why would gay people want to get married anyway?", or, "Women cannot be priests". A few people object strenuously, others don't care, most people wish they'd just shut up.
Rowling is describing the world we live in. She's not going to make it easy for us and write Book 8: Harry Potter and the Battle for Elf Rights. She may be hoping that some readers will recognize the "house-elves" among us and change their attitudes and behaviours accordingly.
There are many, many authors who present uncritical visions of unjust fantasy societies. Rowling is not one of them.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So you're saying that all literature is propaganda, and it has to propagandize in the exact right direction on every single point, to make sure our little urchins have all the correct feelings about things in their widdle heads?
That's certainly what it sounds like. Apparently the only purpose storytelling has is to indoctrinate.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I am just saying that this particular aspect of Harry Potter seems troubling and poorly thought out. I still like the series over all, and would further add that we can think about our literature critically and still enjoy it.
What I don't understand is the position "Rowling is just telling a story- we can't and shouldn't look at these other aspects of the story!"
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I am just saying that this particular aspect of Harry Potter seems troubling and poorly thought out. I still like the series over all, and would further add that we can think about our literature critically and still enjoy it.
What I don't understand is the position "Rowling is just telling a story- we can't and shouldn't look at these other aspects of the story!"
I don't understand how it could be better thought out without becoming propaganda. For crying out loud Hermione's crusade to free the house elves is a pretty major part of one of the novels. It's hard to see what it would take to please you. Especially since you won't answer when someone asks what it would take to please you, and fall back on vagaries like "it's not well thought out."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
I can hardly tell Rowling how to write her own world. I am just looking at what she wrote.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I can hardly tell Rowling how to write her own world. I am just looking at what she wrote.
Well, you're criticizing what she wrote in provocative terms as if she should have done something better, or so it seems to me...
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
I'm not exactly obliged to be impartial about the matter am I? I'll make this clear right here and now- Rowling doesn't owe me anything. She can write her book however she likes. But I hardly owe her polite silence about the themes operating in her books either.
The fact that y'all think this is a matter of liking or disliking the series shows that we are coming at the question from very different angles, though. Yes, I have these airy-headed ideas that slavery is always and everywhere wrong in every possible world, and that the happy slave myth is vicious and wrong-minded, but that has nothing to do with what is objectively in the books.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Laurelin
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# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
JK Rowling isn't writing stories about house-elf liberation. She's writing about house elves to try to get readers to recognize that there is socially acceptable prejudice / racism / classism in the world the readers live in.
Personally, I can't relate RL atrocities to a bunch of mythical creatures whom Rowling borrowed from British folklore. The House-elf slavery issue in the HP books is not presented with a huge amount of seriousness, in my opinion, Hermione's political correctness notwithstanding.
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There are many, many authors who present uncritical visions of unjust fantasy societies. Rowling is not one of them.
Well, OK, she tries. But it's a mixed bag, because she doesn't always seem to think through the implications of her imaginary world. Even if Hermione's attitude is 'right on' towards the House-elves, and the attitude of most Gryffindors is anti-blood-prejudice, the author's attitude towards Slytherin House (every single child sorted into Slytherin is tainted by association: this House is set up as the House of Racist, Snobbish, Self-Entitled Aristocrats from the get-go) and the general attitude of even her benign, non-prejudiced wizards towards Muggles, is somewhat troubling.
Not that I take any of this that seriously. And I enjoy Slytherins as villains, in the main. I do regard the HP books as generally moral ... there are simply gaps in Potterverse logic, IMO. If readers see the HP series as a serious comment on racism and prejudice, all I can say is: the attitude towards Slytherins and Muggles undermines that message to some degree. If that's the message that was intended, then the politics of the books is simplistic.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I'm not exactly obliged to be impartial about the matter am I? I'll make this clear right here and now- Rowling doesn't owe me anything. She can write her book however she likes. But I hardly owe her polite silence about the themes operating in her books either.
The fact that y'all think this is a matter of liking or disliking the series shows that we are coming at the question from very different angles, though. Yes, I have these airy-headed ideas that slavery is always and everywhere wrong in every possible world, and that the happy slave myth is vicious and wrong-minded, but that has nothing to do with what is objectively in the books.
You're imputing allegations I don't think I've made. I think the slavery in her world is ambiguous, to say the least, and hardly a happy situation.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Cthulhu
PRAY TO BE EATEN FIRST
# 16186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I don't understand how it could be better thought out without becoming propaganda. For crying out loud Hermione's crusade to free the house elves is a pretty major part of one of the novels. It's hard to see what it would take to please you. Especially since you won't answer when someone asks what it would take to please you, and fall back on vagaries like "it's not well thought out."
WHILE I AGREE, ONE SMALL NOTE.
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I WILL DESTROY YOU ALL. Nothing personal.
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
quote:
I think the slavery in her world is ambiguous, to say the least, and hardly a happy situation.
Then for the love of Pete provide some evidence from the text.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
I think the slavery in her world is ambiguous, to say the least, and hardly a happy situation.
Then for the love of Pete provide some evidence from the text.
Have you got any?
ETA: I don't think I have the entire series in the apartment right now, only Half Blood Prince and Deathly Hallows. Not sure the house elf situation came up a lot in these books. I'm going currently on my impressionistic memory of the books, which I read a while ago. I do wonder if you could provide some citations for analysis.
[ 31. October 2012, 19:20: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
You mean the Harry Potter books? No. Just throw out some examples. I'll take your word for it.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
Exhibit A: The very picture of happiness.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
Also, I'll consider myself. I'm currently employed at one of those "nasty shitty jobs" that most people don't want to do. I've had one person who makes considerably more (I suspect by her dress and manner) tell me that she couldn't do it. I've had someone else call me a saint merely because of my employment.
Am I happy to work here? Most days, marginally, as it beats not working. Also because in my current state I kind of have to be happy as a matter of survival. You might say I'm underemployed and may wish for work with more dignity than taking care of people who are not in a position to take care of themselves. You would probably be right, but for my survival and mental health, it's necessary for me to learn happiness in an underemployed and somewhat marginal state.
Now, it's not slavery, exactly, but I completely understand the mental need to find satisfaction in unpleasing work. I think your attitude toward that sort of work seems...a little simplistic. As if you're offended that people who are left with few options try to find some comfort and satisfaction and even dignity where it's given to them in a reality that says that most revolutions are run by people who mean well but really don't know what they're doing (which I think Hermione is a relatively affectionate caricature of in this instance.)
Now, it's not perfect. No story that tries to realistically display a routinely disgusting institution is perfect, but I think it does a better job than you give it credit for doing.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Soror Magna
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# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
... The fact that y'all think this is a matter of liking or disliking the series shows that we are coming at the question from very different angles, though. Yes, I have these airy-headed ideas that slavery is always and everywhere wrong in every possible world, and that the happy slave myth is vicious and wrong-minded, but that has nothing to do with what is objectively in the books.
No, that's not why I disagree. I disagree that readers of any age are incapable of spotting the "happy slave myth", and questioning it themselves. I also disagree that everything wrong in a fictional world must be explicitly criticized and put right in 7 books or else the author is a fascist dirtbag and/or a sloppy thinker.
JRR Tolkien famously observed,
quote:
I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of the reader. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.
The "happy slave myth" is in the books because it exists in our world. And just like in our world, there are a range of responses to it and readers are entitled to their own opinions and judgments on what happens in the books as well as out in the real world.
I would also like to point out that the "happy slave myth" is presented both as a social norm and a spiritual metaphor in both the Old and New Testaments. Many Christians proudly and happily call themselves "slaves to Christ".
Slavery in the Bible
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Exhibit A: The very picture of happiness.
I am arguing that the narrative sees slavery as OK so long as the slaves are treated well. Please explain how Kreacher's case shows slavery itself to be bad, even if the slaves are treated well.
The fact that Kreacher is just over the moon to be a slave to nice masters at the end would support my case better, I should think.
quote:
Also, I'll consider myself.
Well, I'm looking at the text here.
[ 31. October 2012, 19:47: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Exhibit A: The very picture of happiness.
I am arguing that the narrative sees slavery as OK so long as the slaves are treated well. Please explain how Kreacher's case shows slavery itself to be bad, even if the slaves are treated well.
The fact that Kreacher is just over the moon to be a slave to nice masters at the end would support my case better, I should think.
Old habits are hard to break.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Exhibit A: The very picture of happiness.
I am arguing that the narrative sees slavery as OK so long as the slaves are treated well. Please explain how Kreacher's case shows slavery itself to be bad, even if the slaves are treated well.
The fact that Kreacher is just over the moon to be a slave to nice masters at the end would support my case better, I should think.
quote:
Also, I'll consider myself.
Well, I'm looking at the text here.
Without context, there is no text. ETA: Also, you brought up outside context as a basis for moral judgment.
[ 31. October 2012, 19:50: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Without context, there is no text. ETA: Also, you brought up outside context as a basis for moral judgment.
We're arguing about whether the happy slave myth is in the text, and for the aforementioned reason Kreacher isn't helping your case one bit.
If you want to use your life to show how the happy slave myth isn't all that bad, be my guest. I am sure my feelings on the idea, your life notwithstanding, are clear.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
quote:
I cordially dislike allegory...
Jeeze louise, just not portraying slavery as a positive institution makes a work of literature an allegory for abolition?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Without context, there is no text. ETA: Also, you brought up outside context as a basis for moral judgment.
We're arguing about whether the happy slave myth is in the text, and for the aforementioned reason Kreacher isn't helping your case one bit.
If you want to use your life to show how the happy slave myth isn't all that bad, be my guest. I am sure my feelings on the idea, your life notwithstanding, are clear.
Your feelings are quite clear. They just aren't mine.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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