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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Archbishop Welby
Mudfrog
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'Other churches are available', as the BBC might say when it mentions a brand name.

In these days of choice and, if we are truly serious about ecumenism, I can't see the problem either with a church believing stuff that excludes some, or with a church that teaches stuff that others are not compofrtable with.

Go to a church that suits you and your stage in the journey.

You like women in leadership? There are places that do it.
Don't like women in leadership - equally available on the High Street.

Want a church that welcomes gay partners? There's one just for you [Smile]
Want a church where they teach strict conservative family values? There are many.

The problem is when you try to insist that every church must do it your way.

it's like going into a fruit shop and complaining when they tell you they can't sell you a spanner (US: wrench)

Go where you are comfortable.
Simples.


....can I be Archbishop now?

[ 10. November 2012, 23:06: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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AngloCatholicDude
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quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
The main issue I have with this appointment is "Where does this leave "Trad Catholic clergy" in terms of future senior appointments.

With the possibility of women bishops could this mean that a "traditionalist" will never be ++Cantuar in future. If this is the case will they guarantee that ++Ebor is a traditionalist who does not ordain women - This will solve the issue of swearing Canonical Obedience to a female bishops.

I am also concerned that "Traditionalists" will become second-class Anglicans who will be overlooked when it comes to Suffragan and Diocesan appointments.

I came across the Twitter page of Revd Sally Hitchiner where she said "So WHO will be the new Bishop of Durham? Lucy Winket? Rachel Treweek? June Osborne? Fingers crossed it's a girlie!".

As previously mentioned "those who want to be Bishops shouldn't". No female clergy has openly said they want to be a Bishop, so how do we know that they want to be Bishops.

I pray and hope that the CofE don't make Traditionalists and Conservative Evo's second-class Anglicans and that they are treated fairly for Senior Appointments

I totally agree, we must avoid making traditionalists second class Anglicans

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Trusting and Believing in the Catholic Tradition within the Church of England

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Bullfrog.

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Is it possible to resolve this dilemma without making somebody a second class citizen?

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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Evangeline
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quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
The main issue I have with this appointment is "Where does this leave "Trad Catholic clergy" in terms of future senior appointments.

With the possibility of women bishops could this mean that a "traditionalist" will never be ++Cantuar in future. If this is the case will they guarantee that ++Ebor is a traditionalist who does not ordain women - This will solve the issue of swearing Canonical Obedience to a female bishops.

I am also concerned that "Traditionalists" will become second-class Anglicans who will be overlooked when it comes to Suffragan and Diocesan appointments.

I came across the Twitter page of Revd Sally Hitchiner where she said "So WHO will be the new Bishop of Durham? Lucy Winket? Rachel Treweek? June Osborne? Fingers crossed it's a girlie!".

As previously mentioned "those who want to be Bishops shouldn't". No female clergy has openly said they want to be a Bishop, so how do we know that they want to be Bishops.

I pray and hope that the CofE don't make Traditionalists and Conservative Evo's second-class Anglicans and that they are treated fairly for Senior Appointments

I'm not sure what the answer is but female Anglicans have been and in many dioceses still are treated as second-class Anglicans overlooked for any position of leadership in the church.

[ 11. November 2012, 05:30: Message edited by: Evangeline ]

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
'Other churches are available', as the BBC might say when it mentions a brand name.

In these days of choice and, if we are truly serious about ecumenism, I can't see the problem either with a church believing stuff that excludes some, or with a church that teaches stuff that others are not comfortable with.

Go to a church that suits you and your stage in the journey.

You like women in leadership? There are places that do it.
Don't like women in leadership - equally available on the High Street.

Want a church that welcomes gay partners? There's one just for you [Smile]
Want a church where they teach strict conservative family values? There are many.

The problem is when you try to insist that every church must do it your way.

it's like going into a fruit shop and complaining when they tell you they can't sell you a spanner (US: wrench)

Go where you are comfortable.
Simples.


....can I be Archbishop now?

Up to a point Lord Copper.

There are genuine disagreements, big ones, about what God really thinks. Also, the churches are often not wholly in line with the mind of God.

Nevertheless, it's a thoroughly dangerous idea to approach the Christian faith on the basis that 'I'll only believe on my own terms', 'I only follow him so far as he thinks the same way as I do', or 'if God doesn't agree with me, I'll walk out'. Among the many spiritual unhealthinesses that underlie that is 'I am doing God a tremendous favour by worshipping him. What a blessing I bestow on him by giving him my obeisances'.

If I don't approach him on the basis that some of my pet assumptions might be wrong, and that if he disagrees with me, it is me who is going to have to change not him, however disconcerting I might find that, I'm in deep spiritual trouble.

On women bishops, to pluck a random example out of the air, there are a number of possible positions. These include:-

1. God wants women to be bishops and those who don't work for this are obstructing his will;

2. God regards women bishops as an impossibility, and detests all those that advocate them;

3. God is not actually all that bothered either way.

I happen to suspect the answer might be 3, but I've got to allow for the possibility that 1 or 2 might be right. If so, I've got to accept that it is me that must change, not him.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
On women bishops, to pluck a random example out of the air, there are a number of possible positions. These include:-

1. God wants women to be bishops and those who don't work for this are obstructing his will;

2. God regards women bishops as an impossibility, and detests all those that advocate them;

3. God is not actually all that bothered either way.

A forth position could be that we don't actually know whether God wants women to be Bishops, but we do know that he wants men in these roles - for example Jesus' 12 male disciples. Therefore, until we are sure, let's keep the status quo, lest we err.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Mudfrog
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Maybe, just to summarize my point, if you want women bishops/leaders and your church doesn't, then you go to a church that does.

Likewise, if you want a church that will perform SSM - go to one that does; don't try to force the non-agreeing church to do it.

Why should the churches change to accommodate narrow interest groups?
Pick one that suits.

I don't expect the CofE to have brass bands so I go to one that does!

If we are serious about ecumenism, then it doesn't matter which church you attend - we're all equidistant around the Throne!

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Evangeline
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
On women bishops, to pluck a random example out of the air, there are a number of possible positions. These include:-

1. God wants women to be bishops and those who don't work for this are obstructing his will;

2. God regards women bishops as an impossibility, and detests all those that advocate them;

3. God is not actually all that bothered either way.

A forth position could be that we don't actually know whether God wants women to be Bishops, but we do know that he wants men in these roles - for example Jesus' 12 male disciples. Therefore, until we are sure, let's keep the status quo, lest we err.
Perhaps we'd better also assume that we know God wants Jewish men in the role, for example, Jesus' 12 male disciples so we'd better only appoint those who are Jewish.
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Enoch
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That wasn't the point I was trying to make.

What I was trying to say, is that neither I nor anyone else can insist either on having the Christian faith on my own terms, nor demand that everyone marches in step with me. I am answerable to God, on his terms. He is not answerable to me.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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ken
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Does anyone know if he is related to Lord Portal? I sort of assume he must be, because of his name, but I don't know at all.

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
and he is certainly not a stereotypical 'Old-Etonian'.

But he's Eton/Cambridge, which is likely to make him less right wing than the stereotypical 'Old-Etonian' Eton/Oxford lot.
If his background does include Portal and so on then it sounds like establishment, but Cambridge technocrat Fabian managerial establishment rather than Oxford classics Tory paternalistic establishment. In fictional terms more CP Snow than Evelyn Waugh.

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:

Bishop Welby sounds an excellent choice. Witty, urbane, and intelligent (three qualities denied to George Carey), he admitted that his most challenging role had been as a parish priest.

Can't we stop this pompous digging at George Carey for a bit? Its getting old.

FWIW, I've no real idea what you mean by "urbane" - maybe making the kind of snide snobbish smalltalk that some people like to post here - but George Carey never struck me as unintelligent.

And the continual drip of nastiness about Rowan Williams is getting very tedious as well. What's the point of this crusading?

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Percy B
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quote:
Originally posted by AngloCatholicDude:
quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
The main issue I have with this appointment is "Where does this leave "Trad Catholic clergy" in terms of future senior appointments.

With the possibility of women bishops could this mean that a "traditionalist" will never be ++Cantuar in future. If this is the case will they guarantee that ++Ebor is a traditionalist who does not ordain women - This will solve the issue of swearing Canonical Obedience to a female bishops.

I am also concerned that "Traditionalists" will become second-class Anglicans who will be overlooked when it comes to Suffragan and Diocesan appointments.

I came across the Twitter page of Revd Sally Hitchiner where she said "So WHO will be the new Bishop of Durham? Lucy Winket? Rachel Treweek? June Osborne? Fingers crossed it's a girlie!".

As previously mentioned "those who want to be Bishops shouldn't". No female clergy has openly said they want to be a Bishop, so how do we know that they want to be Bishops.

I pray and hope that the CofE don't make Traditionalists and Conservative Evo's second-class Anglicans and that they are treated fairly for Senior Appointments

I totally agree, we must avoid making traditionalists second class Anglicans
I am a traditional Anglican Catholic. I enjoy the Catholic traditions of the Church. I recognise the Catholic tradition that those whom our bishops ordain are ordained.

I am disappointed when some assume all 'traditional' Anglicans of a Catholic mind are against women's ordination. That simply is not true.

I welcome that Bishop Welby has spoken so clearly on this issue, in his support for the ordination of women.

He seems less clear on gay issues, but that is understandable as it is a more contentious issue at present. He has pledged himself to listen, and that is encouraging.

He will not have an easy task as the small minorities in the church who are anti women priests, or anti gay, or anti modern worship, speak so loudly. They get attention out of proportion to their numbers, and keeping that in mind can be very difficult.

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Mary, a priest??

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
He will not have an easy task as the small minorities in the church who are anti women priests, or anti gay... speak so loudly. They get attention out of proportion to their numbers, and keeping that in mind can be very difficult.

What's your evidence that that the conservatives on the gay and women priests issue are a 'small' minority? The OoW got a two thirds majority - implying opposition by one third. However on the gay issue, on the occasions when General Synod has voted, it has overwhelmingly supported the conservative position, so not a 'small minority' but a large majority.

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Spike

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The votes on General Synod aren't really representative though, because it's only Ecclesiastical anoraks who care about such things who stand for election. The average worshippers in the pews really don't give a monkey's one way or the other.

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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Chapelhead

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Does anyone know if he is related to Lord Portal? I sort of assume he must be, because of his name, but I don't know at all.

Portal is his mother's family name. She is the niece of Charles Portal, 1st Viscount Portal of Hungerford. Justin Welby's parents divorced, and his mother later married Charles Williams, who was ennobled in 1985, making her Baroness Williams of Elvel.

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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?

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Jemima the 9th
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quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
+Stephen Cottrell (Even though he sold out to his own inheritance)

Could you explain this please? Stephen Cottrell is now my bishop so I'm intrigued to know.

Also, thinking about mudfrog's point about picking a church that matches your beliefs. I go to my local CofE church. Within that congregation there are a variety of views about SSM, less so about OOW I suppose, since most are in favour. I have a vague, ill-defined feeling (well that's the CofE for you [Biased] ) that I ought to be going along to church with people who are wrong* because it's the right thing to do. We ought to be able to get along together, and to worship together.

*ie who don't agree with me, because I'm always right about everything

[ 11. November 2012, 15:32: Message edited by: Jemima the 9th ]

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the long ranger
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Looking at today's Observer, there is much play about his background as the 'first HTB archbishop'.

I think this is pretty unfair. Although he was only fairly briefly Bishop in Durham and Dean in Liverpool, as far as I am aware, the vast majority of his Anglican ministry has been in the Coventry diocese and Coventry Cathedral.

Whilst Justin Welby worked closely with the former Dean of Coventry Cathedral, who was himself involved in the development of Alpha, for most of his time in Coventry, he was a Canon in charge of the international ministry - and I don't think took much of a role in Alpha-type events in Coventry Cathedral.

I don't therefore think it is accurate to suggest that he has emerged as an archbishop directly from HTB, unaffected by his parish ministry in Coventry and his difficult job in Nigeria, the Middle East and elsewhere.

Personally, I wouldn't say that he is particularly evangelical nor overly charismatic. Indeed, my main observation of his style is that he is a perfectionist. But a genuinely good person, I hope he is not broken by the demands of the position.

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Qoheleth.

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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
Unfortunately Elmore is no more, sad to say. What is left is a shade of a shadow living in a smallish, grace and favor, bungalow-style leased house on Salisbury Cathedral Close around the corner from the old theological college buildings. I haven't found a web site for them, but I do know that decided not to take any new vocations. Last count, there was just one superior who still calls himself "abbot," a professed brother and three or four old men. They may still have oblates.

For the sake of accuracy, I must point out that Salisbury Priory has two storeys, and that AFAIK the community has not styled its superior "Abbot" since Basil Matthews departed these shores. Dom Simon has remained Prior Simon. The Oblate body is alive and well, with nearly three hundred members.

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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.

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Percy B
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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
The votes on General Synod aren't really representative though, because it's only Ecclesiastical anoraks who care about such things who stand for election. The average worshippers in the pews really don't give a monkey's one way or the other.

I completely agree!

That is also a significant problem. General Synod is not actually very representative, although how it could be, do not ask me.

The fact remains most people in England are in favour of women priests in the Church of England. Most people in England are no anti gay. The C of E claims to be for everyone in England so maybe the voices of the people should predominate [Smile]

Bishop Welby says he will listen. That's great and let's pray that he is not got at by synods men and ecclesiastical civil servants!

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Mary, a priest??

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Mark Betts

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Another point to keep in mind is that to be "anti-gay marriage" does not mean you are "anti-gay."

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
Congratulation to +Justin Durham on his quick elevation. +Stephen Cottrell (Even though he sold out to his own inheritance) and +Richard Chartres would have been my choice.

Stephen Cottrell is Catholic but very evangelical

Stephen is a catholic charismatic. He also has a concern for evangelism, as we all should. His book 'Catholic evangelism' is rooted in the catholic tradition.

So how has he 'sold out to his own inheritance'? And if that (whatever it is) is 'selling out' then what is your plan for re-evangelisation of England?

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
Stephen Cottrell is Catholic but very evangelical

Sorry to quibble, but don't you mean evangelistic?

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Jonathan Strange
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Another point to keep in mind is that to be "anti-gay marriage" does not mean you are "anti-gay."

I'm tempted to ask for an expansion on your statement except it feels too much like DH territory.

--------------------
"Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight,
At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more,
When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death,
When he shakes his mane, we shall have spring again"

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
The fact remains most people in England are in favour of women priests in the Church of England. Most people in England are no anti gay. The C of E claims to be for everyone in England so maybe the voices of the people should predominate [Smile]

Yup - that in a nut shell is a statement of Erastianism gone wrong; the idea that those who have no meaningful allegiance to the institutional church should get to decide what the beliefs of the Church should be. [Projectile]

--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Another point to keep in mind is that to be "anti-gay marriage" does not mean you are "anti-gay."

I'm tempted to ask for an expansion on your statement except it feels too much like DH territory.
The new Archbishop has indeed got his work cut out for him but only because of the 'shrill' voices that he will encounter in his intended role as a listener.

It always strikes me as being rather 'Pythonesque' that every time someone says or writes even one word of, shall we say, 'less-than-gushing-supportive-comment' on the issue of homosexuality, the cry goes up: "Homophobic! Homophobic!" "Stone him"! ...OK maybe not the last bit.

Anyway.
If the LGBT community wants a fair hearing - and they have been demanding it for a long time - then I suggest that they too listen to the reasoned responses (hoping there are some) and not get all upset if it's not the full spectrum of demands.

What I would like to suggest is that a definition of homophobia is coined that would include employment discrimination, hate speech, and all the stuff like that but that would NOT include someone who simply says, 'My belief, sincerely held, is that physically expressed homosexuality is not God's intended plan for his people.'

Now, of course many, many people will not agree with that one little bit - and that's fine. But it is not homophobia! It's a declaration of Christian moral viewpoint akin to not believing in sex before marriage, not believing in divorce and not supporting abortion for reasons other than rape and serious health concerns.

I don't want to go into DH territory and discuss the rights and wrongs of any of these views but it would be very helpful to us and the good Archbishop-to-be if the discussions that everyone wants can allow people to hold their views without being hysterically accused and labelled with 'indelible ink'. (what I mean by that is the tendency that once you are labelled, for example, 'homophobe', everything you say subsequently is seen by your critics as being 'because you're a homophobe').
There can be no progress if every time you speak someone shuts their eyes, sticks their fingers in their ears and cries 'homophobe, homophobe, homophobe.'

Please let us agree that one can disagree with gay marriage without being homophobic. Those who label everything in this way, to my mind, are themselves narrow-minded, bigoted, unreasonable and a total barrier to productive discussion.

I fear, however, that as soon as ++Justin says, 'I don't want clergy performing SSMs', the placards will appear and the words 'Justin Homophobe' will appear.

It's not very conducive to discussion; that's all I'm saying.

[ 11. November 2012, 19:59: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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AngloCatholicDude
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
Congratulation to +Justin Durham on his quick elevation. +Stephen Cottrell (Even though he sold out to his own inheritance) and +Richard Chartres would have been my choice.

Stephen Cottrell is Catholic but very evangelical

Stephen is a catholic charismatic. He also has a concern for evangelism, as we all should. His book 'Catholic evangelism' is rooted in the catholic tradition.

So how has he 'sold out to his own inheritance'? And if that (whatever it is) is 'selling out' then what is your plan for re-evangelisation of England?

Fr Stephen Cottrell SSC (As he was then) vowed against the ordination of women, he was prominently against it but within 48 hours of the vote being passed he was now in favour of the OoW.

+Stephen Cottrell got whiff of a future preferment and knew that his opposition to the Ordination of Women would count against him, so he had to change his stance.

Bishop Stephen Cottrell is a wonderful man but he has got to where he is today because [edited for libel risk] - I was very disappointed in him when I heard he had done this.

[Edited for legal risk, DT, Purgatory Host]

[ 11. November 2012, 22:43: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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Trusting and Believing in the Catholic Tradition within the Church of England

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by AngloCatholicDude:

Bishop Stephen Cottrell is a wonderful man but he has got to where he is today because [edited for libel risk]

Is this not defamation? You accuse [Edited to remove repetition of accusation]. I don't think that's a proper thing to do on the Ship.


[Edited for legal risk, DT, Purgatory Host]

[ 12. November 2012, 05:39: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Quinquireme
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Sorry to bring in a point not entirely relevant, but an atheist friend of mine recently ranted on Facebook, asking "How much does the ABC cost?"" Can anyone answer this, and does it Come Out of Our Taxes???
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Percy B
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I agree with Mudfrog - both in the last post and his previous one, for which, thank you.

There were those who opposed women priests and then changed. Some did because as Catholic minded people they respected and followed the way of their bishops.

Others felt they had made a mistake and so rectified that.

Others stayed opposed. Some others remained opposed and were unpleasant about those who changed their minds.

Bishop Welby does have a mixed bag to guide! Especially when one considers the variety within the Anglican Communion. I am pleased to know he has experience of relating to and understanding Nigerian Anglicans.

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Mary, a priest??

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Another point to keep in mind is that to be "anti-gay marriage" does not mean you are "anti-gay."

I'm tempted to ask for an expansion on your statement except it feels too much like DH territory.
It ought to be self-explanatory.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Jengie jon

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quote:
Originally posted by Quinquireme:
Sorry to bring in a point not entirely relevant, but an atheist friend of mine recently ranted on Facebook, asking "How much does the ABC cost?"" Can anyone answer this, and does it Come Out of Our Taxes???

How the Church of England is funded and No not from Taxes, also it appears the Archbishops Council (national administrations) is about 1% of income and maybe falling.

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

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Mr. Rob
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quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
Unfortunately Elmore is no more, sad to say. What is left is a shade of a shadow living in a smallish, grace and favor, bungalow-style leased house on Salisbury Cathedral Close around the corner from the old theological college buildings. I haven't found a web site for them, but I do know that decided not to take any new vocations. Last count, there was just one superior who still calls himself "abbot," a professed brother and three or four old men. They may still have oblates.


For the sake of accuracy, I must point out that Salisbury Priory has two storeys, and that AFAIK the community has not styled its superior "Abbot" since Basil Matthews departed these shores. Dom Simon has remained Prior Simon. The Oblate body is alive and well, with nearly three hundred members.
Ah, thank you, Qoheleth. I saw Dom Simon wearing a pectoral cross and assumed he had taken the title of abbot. Also, I only saw photos of their house from above and of their back garden which did not include every angle. The house is, however, in the style of a modern, purpose built family home.

I'm pleased to hear that Salisbury Priory has kept their oblates, and that their are so many of them! So Justin Welby could be an oblate be connected with the Salisbury monks. All of this is difficult territory to explore because of the lack of a web site - as far as I can see - for the Salisbury Priory. Accurate information about the monks at Salisbury must, perforce, be gleaned from people like yourself or secondary sources such as

The Nashdom Chronicles

... and other bits and pieces of information.

Frankly, I do not understand why Salisbury Priory has no web presence. Perhaps you may have the answer to that, Qoheleth. I certainly don't understand why any monastery would give up on continuance by adopting a deliberate policy of closing its doors to new members. I was amazed to see that same thing happen with two other well known cases in England, and quite recently, another in the USA.

*

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
I certainly don't understand why any monastery would give up on continuance by adopting a deliberate policy of closing its doors to new members. I was amazed to see that same thing happen with two other well known cases in England, and quite recently, another in the USA.

*

If a monastery is down to a handful of members, all of whom are pensioners, it is not really fair on novices to be faced with the prospect of the oldies departing quite soon, leaving them exposed and in charge. It therefore makes more sense to encourage such candidates for the religious life to look elsewhere, especially as there is such a shortage of candidates. Personally it surprises me that such institutions don't unite with others, but perhaps it's felt that the burden of the extra pensioners isn't really fair on the more dynamic community, as well as being disruptive to the life of the receiving community. But overall surely it's tidier to make the decision to close down than let a lingering half life persist indefinitely.

--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Mr. Rob
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quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:


... There were those who opposed women priests and then changed.


Actually, looking back, over time there has been development of a great many people in thinking and the acceptance of the idea of women in Holy Orders. Without hard evidence for the claim except other then my nearly sixty years of Anglican church experience, for what that's worth, I can say that about development of views about women in Holy Orders.

People have come to acceptance of women, as I did, in their own individual ways. There are many stories of thinking or praying throught the issue and other tales of experiences or epiphanies with the matter. With me it came in 1982, in Boston, Massachusetts, USA, at a Solemn High Mass celebrated by a woman priest. At that moment I saw that it was so right. When that woman sang the Sursum corda, it was the real and authentic priestly prayer of the Eucharist.

But I was raised in the 1950s, when the idea of women Anglican/Episcopal clergy, except for some extreme radicals, was pretty much unthinkable. Much later in life, in Maine, I was part of the enthusiastic welcoming crowd for Chilton Knudsen, the first woman bishop of Maine.

Chilton Knudsen, retired bishop of Maine

Times change and people change with them: Hopefully.

*

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Triple Tiara

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On Nashdom and Salisbury - I stayed at Pluscarden Abbey a couple of years ago. It is another part of the inheritance from Caldey, having been founded from Prinknash in the 1940s. A large portrait of Dom Aelred Carlyle hung in their library. While there I read a rather sad little volume called The Labour of Obedience by Peta Dunstan. It tells the story of Nashdom in its heyday and thence Elmore and finally the current situation. As I recall Dunstan's thesis was that Nashdom nailed its colours so firmly to the Anglo-Papalist mast that its end was predictable following the great division of Anglo-Catholicism in the 1990s in England. Its work had been done. Interesting read and well worth it.

--------------------
I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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Doublethink.
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Hostly Tudor Bonnet

AngloCatholicDude, commandment 7 states: don't post illegal material.
This includes potentially libelous or defamatory material. I have edited your post to make it compliant.

/Hostly Tudor Bonnet

Doublethink
Purgatory Host

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Triple Tiara

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[Killing me] I love the new avatar Doublethink

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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Doublethink.
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She reminds me of my grandma, you know the Bretons say the aging face is beautiful ?

[ 11. November 2012, 22:57: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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PaulBC
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Why all the vitrol over the new ABC designate ? Over OoW ? And I write from a country where we have women clergy all 3 stations, deacons , priests & bishops . We need as a church, here , in Australia in UK have a church of inclusion.
As for SSM . That should be thought through but I don't believe it would be world ending if
ithappens.
blessings [Votive] [Angel] [Smile]

--------------------
"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8

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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
Mudfrog's strawman ranges from:
'shrill' voices

quote:
all the way to:
narrow-minded, bigoted, unreasonable and a total barrier to productive discussion.

A thrust with no permitted parry.
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malik3000
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quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Indeed. What any ABC says about homosexuality will affect some people's lives. What he says about bankers will affect nothing.

Given the immense human suffering in many nations caused by immoral predatory practices by financiers, it would be nice if you were wrong about the latter.

--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.

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Doublethink.
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Mudfrog's strawman ranges from:
'shrill' voices

quote:
all the way to:
narrow-minded, bigoted, unreasonable and a total barrier to productive discussion.

A thrust with no permitted parry.

You can always take it to hell.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Mudfrog's strawman ranges from:
'shrill' voices

quote:
all the way to:
narrow-minded, bigoted, unreasonable and a total barrier to productive discussion.

A thrust with no permitted parry.

Why is what I wrote 'a strawman'?

Why is the reflection that people from the LCBT community can be narrow-minded, etc, 'a thrust with no permitted parry'?
Are you saying that no-one from that community could ever display those attitudes?

It seems to me that anyone from any interest group could be described as that if, in defending their sincerely held position they refuse to allow the opposite side to speak and refuse indeed to allow the other side to hold an opposing opinion without it being labelled as offensive.

[ 12. November 2012, 07:14: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:


It seems to me that anyone from any interest group could be described as that if, in defending their sincerely held position they refuse to allow the opposite side to speak and refuse indeed to allow the other side to hold an opposing opinion without it being labelled as offensive.

I don't really understand what this has to do with the Archbish designate. But still, the issues are whether any religious body (state church or otherwise) should hold the moral authority to prevent other people from doing something that is legal and state sanctioned.

Whether or not an individual religious body takes a line on whether a particular practice is sanctioned within the group is a different issue.

Of course, the Anglican church is in a totally different position with regard to the state and marriage than everyone else, including the Salvation Army. Until that is addressed, these two issues are going to be tied together in a totally unhelpful way ad nauseum.

[ 12. November 2012, 07:45: Message edited by: the long ranger ]

--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:


It seems to me that anyone from any interest group could be described as that if, in defending their sincerely held position they refuse to allow the opposite side to speak and refuse indeed to allow the other side to hold an opposing opinion without it being labelled as offensive.

I don't really understand what this has to do with the Archbish designate.
It's has to do with him because he is going to have to talk to both sides and he has said that he wants to listen to the LGBT community. What I am saying is that maybe they need to listen too and not attack him - or anyone - for that matter with inflammatory accusations of 'Homophobe!' should he restate his well-known position against SSM - which is not yet enshrined in law and, according to the government such a law would permit churches to opt out of conducting such ceremonies.

When that happens, and when ++Justin confirms that status quo, I hope the LGBT community will accept it as being a sincerely held and reasoned position within the Anglican Church here in the UK.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
for that matter with inflammatory accusations of 'Homophobe!' should he restate his well-known position against SSM - which is not yet enshrined in law and, according to the government such a law would permit churches to opt out of conducting such ceremonies.

When that happens, and when ++Justin confirms that status quo, I hope the LGBT community will accept it as being a sincerely held and reasoned position within the Anglican Church here in the UK.

I think Bishop Welby has just stated that he abides by the agreed policy of the bishops. I don't think he has stated a personal opinion.

Of course, the difficulty is that some within the Anglican church are trying to prevent the state from using the word 'marriage' for gay marriages. And as long as that continues, religious bodies are not really in a great position with regard to talking reasonably to the constituency of homosexuals within their own church.

A position that 'we will abide by the law and recognise all legally conducted marriages even if that includes relationships we would not ourselves conduct' might well be a reasonable argument. But that is a hard position to take when there is massive internal conversation about the issue and a number of high profile speakers who are saying 'gay marriage cannot be called marriage because we're the church and we don't agree with it'.

In my view, even if it (or any other group) takes a line on gay marriage, they're in no position to argue that the state should not extend the relationship to anyone simply on the basis that they (the churches) somehow own the copyright on the term.

--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Of course, the difficulty is that some within the Anglican church are trying to prevent the state from using the word 'marriage' for gay marriages. And as long as that continues, religious bodies are not really in a great position with regard to talking reasonably to the constituency of homosexuals within their own church.

A position that 'we will abide by the law and recognise all legally conducted marriages even if that includes relationships we would not ourselves conduct' might well be a reasonable argument. But that is a hard position to take when there is massive internal conversation about the issue and a number of high profile speakers who are saying 'gay marriage cannot be called marriage because we're the church and we don't agree with it'.

In my view, even if it (or any other group) takes a line on gay marriage, they're in no position to argue that the state should not extend the relationship to anyone simply on the basis that they (the churches) somehow own the copyright on the term.

The logic of the traditional Christian position on this is, of course, that given that marriage was invented by God as the union of a man and a woman, it's not for the state to redefine what God has defined. At some point Christians have to affirm the validity of the statement
quote:

'who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay?

Rom 9:20,21

Now of course the world doesn't believe this - so it's no surprise that it wants to go another way. But to rule out the right of the church to claim to know the will of God on this matter, is illegitimate.

--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The logic of the traditional Christian position on this is, of course, that given that marriage was invented by God as the union of a man and a woman, it's not for the state to redefine what God has defined.

Is this the same logic that allows polygamy, sibling marriage, cousin marriage, and marriage at 12?

Thought so.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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Mudfrog
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... and given that until the nineteenth century ALL marriages were religious and conducted in accordance to church teaching, the idea that the relatively new definition and provision of civil marriage should now insist on changing what has always been - with justification - the marriage of one man and one woman for life - seems rather impertinent.

And the establishment can not change the definiton of marriage without permission from the church because the Church of England is part of the establishment. it has a seat and a voice and a right to be heard and listened to.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The logic of the traditional Christian position on this is, of course, that given that marriage was invented by God as the union of a man and a woman, it's not for the state to redefine what God has defined. At some point Christians have to affirm the validity of the statement
quote:

'who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay?

Rom 9:20,21

Now of course the world doesn't believe this - so it's no surprise that it wants to go another way. But to rule out the right of the church to claim to know the will of God on this matter, is illegitimate.

This is a broken record. The British soon discovered that they did not have a monopoly on marriage when the Indian women rebelled against the idea that they were somehow not married because they'd not been 'done' by a Christian rite.

I don't accept your 'traditional' interpretation. Even if I did, I wouldn't expect you to do anything other than respect the choices of people who believe different things to you.

--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... and given that until the nineteenth century ALL marriages were religious and conducted in accordance to church teaching, the idea that the relatively new definition and provision of civil marriage should now insist on changing what has always been - with justification - the marriage of one man and one woman for life - seems rather impertinent.

Not really true for a start - ever heard of jumping the broom?

For a long time, the church determined tax, nobody now thinks that they have a moral justification for tax powers. It is not impertinence for the state to make decisions outwith of what a particular religious group thinks. Indeed, it is rather impertinent for any religious group to think that they can continue to exercise morally bankrupt ideas and enforce them onto the population at large.

quote:
And the establishment can not change the definiton of marriage without permission from the church because the Church of England is part of the establishment. it has a seat and a voice and a right to be heard and listened to.
Unlike the Church of England, the executive of the country is a representative democracy. And thus it certainly can change the definition of marriage without permission of the church. I agree that a change would likely upset the odd balance between church-and-state within the country, but the Anglican church holds no trump card on this, or any other, issue.

--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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