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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Archbishop Welby
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Dafyd
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# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The logic of the traditional Christian position on this is, of course, that given that marriage was invented by God as the union of a man and a woman
Er... the union of a man and an aardvark, surely? Gen 2:18-19.
(If I need to spell out the point seriously I'll do it in DH.)
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
This is a broken record. The British soon discovered that they did not have a monopoly on marriage when the Indian women rebelled against the idea that they were somehow not married because they'd not been 'done' by a Christian rite.
Indeed - the British deserved to be reminded that marriage is a creation ordinance, which can be entered into by any means that the society wishes to recognise as appropriate. But the core concept of a permanent relationship between a man and woman - that's the will of the Creator, for whom the church speaks.
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
I don't accept your 'traditional' interpretation. Even if I did, I wouldn't expect you to do anything other than respect the choices of people who believe different things to you.
If I see a person about to do something really stupid - like give a £1,000,000 to someone I believe to be a fraudster to 'invest' - I have a duty to tell the person what I know. If that person then carries on and does what they've been warned about, they've got no comeback on me. IMNSHO that's the role of the church in the debate about SSM; we believe that SSM is inherently flawed, and have a duty as a watchman. Or are we to show no love to people insisting on giving the £1,000,000 to the person who, in our belief, is a fraudsters by suggesting they might be wrong?
[Yes, I know that the history of the church in this area has not been a good one in showing 'love' ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ; that reply really IS a broken record. ]
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
If I see a person about to do something really stupid - like give a £1,000,000 to someone I believe to be a fraudster to 'invest' - I have a duty to tell the person what I know. If that person then carries on and does what they've been warned about, they've got no comeback on me. IMNSHO that's the role of the church in the debate about SSM; we believe that SSM is inherently flawed, and have a duty as a watchman. Or are we to show no love to people insisting on giving the £1,000,000 to the person who, in our belief, is a fraudsters by suggesting they might be wrong?
That is such as stupid and irrelevant example that I'm not even going to respond.
I detest the National Lottery. I think it is utterly morally bankrupt. I believe as a citizen of this country, I have a freedom to campaign against it and to support those who are hurt by it. I believe that I have a right to try to change people to my way of thinking by reasoned argument up to and including participation in the lawful decision-making bodies of this country.
What I do not believe is that I have any right to insist that the lottery is illegal simply because of my moral qualms. I recognise that people do stupid things and that the state legislates for people doing things I detest. It is legal, it is just stupid and immoral.
You don't have to like gay marriage. But you've clearly lost the moral argument and are resorting to dodgy history and biblical analysis to attempt to control what other people do. Make the moral argument if you feel you must, but stop trying to insist that you have a trump card which prevents other people from acting on their conscience.
Otherwise we're just back to burning heretics at Smithfield because we don't much like their theology. I don't much care what you decide in your church. I'm fairly comfortable with you deciding there is something about me that you detest. But I will fight to the death your insistence that you have a legal right to tell me what to do, what to call myself and whether the state should recognise my relationship. To that I simply say 'fuck off and mind your own business'.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
I detest the National Lottery... What I do not believe is that I have any right to insist that the lottery is illegal simply because of my moral qualms. I recognise that people do stupid things and that the state legislates for people doing things I detest. It is legal, it is just stupid and immoral.
You don't have to like gay marriage. But you've clearly lost the moral argument and are resorting to dodgy history and biblical analysis to attempt to control what other people do. Make the moral argument if you feel you must, but stop trying to insist that you have a trump card which prevents other people from acting on their conscience.
Otherwise we're just back to burning heretics at Smithfield because we don't much like their theology. I don't much care what you decide in your church. I'm fairly comfortable with you deciding there is something about me that you detest. But I will fight to the death your insistence that you have a legal right to tell me what to do, what to call myself and whether the state should recognise my relationship. To that I simply say 'fuck off and mind your own business'.
Yes, that is your right in a liberal democracy. As it is my right to warn you of the consequences IMO, and to label the state's behaviour as illegitimate before God. But yes, after that, we have to agree to disagree; however it would be good if you expressed yourself nicely rather than resort to the language of the gutter and didn't thereby try to deny my right to express my opinion on the matter. A necessary condition true democracy is that we allow all sides the freedom to put their views into the public domain without shouting them down...
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Yes, that is your right in a liberal democracy. As it is my right to warn you of the consequences IMO, and to label the state's behaviour as illegitimate before God. But yes, after that, we have to agree to disagree; however it would be good if you expressed yourself nicely rather than resort to the language of the gutter and didn't thereby try to deny my right to express my opinion on the matter. A necessary condition true democracy is that we allow all sides the freedom to put their views into the public domain without shouting them down...
I'm sorry, you were saying that people should not be able to call their relationships 'marriage', hence it was you, not I, who was attempting to stifle civil debate by claiming that others could not use a word you hold as holy.
In that, I'd suggest you need to rearrange your language if you want to be taken seriously.
And, for the record, I'm not interested in your qualms about anglo-saxon any more than I'm interested in your fallacious argument in favour of biblical family value. Both are bunk.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
To return to discussing Justin Welby, (as I believe this thread was originally about...) I liked the quote from this piece:
" It is most encouraging to hear that one of Dr Welby’s greatest skills is handling people who disagree: he will encounter little else. "
Indeed...
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Indeed, it is rather impertinent for any religious group to think that they can continue to exercise morally bankrupt ideas and enforce them onto the population at large.
What? You're seriously telling me that the universally accepted idea that marriage is between a man and a woman is 'morally bankrupt' - and as morally bankrupt at the National Lottery, as you have also said??
Your view is foolish - and is not worth discussing.
[ 12. November 2012, 10:26: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
IMHO the attitude exhibited by thelongranger is precisely the ridiculous argument that ++Justin will have to cope with.
He will have to discuss the issue of gay marriage with people who believe that marriage per se is 'morally bankrupt'. How he will do that without giving in to despair and throwing his hands up at the pointlessness of even discussing it, I do not know. But then I'm not the AB of C.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
'Other churches are available', as the BBC might say when it mentions a brand name.
In these days of choice and, if we are truly serious about ecumenism, I can't see the problem either with a church believing stuff that excludes some, or with a church that teaches stuff that others are not compofrtable with.
Go to a church that suits you and your stage in the journey.
You like women in leadership? There are places that do it.
Don't like women in leadership - equally available on the High Street.
Want a church that welcomes gay partners? There's one just for you ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Want a church where they teach strict conservative family values? There are many.
The problem is when you try to insist that every church must do it your way.
it's like going into a fruit shop and complaining when they tell you they can't sell you a spanner (US: wrench)
Go where you are comfortable.
Simples.
....can I be Archbishop now?
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
+Justin seems a good choice IMO but I don['t envy him his job!
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What? You're seriously telling me that the universally accepted idea that marriage is between a man and a woman is 'morally bankrupt' - and as morally bankrupt at the National Lottery, as you have also said??
Your view is foolish - and is not worth discussing.
You need to go away and look up 'universal' in the dictionary. If there are people with different opinions about it, then it cannot then be a 'universally accepted idea'. Indeed, the very fact that some want to use the word for gay relationships shows that clearly your exclusive use for heterosexual relationships is not a universally held view.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
IMHO the attitude exhibited by thelongranger is precisely the ridiculous argument that ++Justin will have to cope with.
He will have to discuss the issue of gay marriage with people who believe that marriage per se is 'morally bankrupt'. How he will do that without giving in to despair and throwing his hands up at the pointlessness of even discussing it, I do not know. But then I'm not the AB of C.
No, what is morally bankrupt is the idea that some people who used a certain word in a certain context can have a trump card on any wider civil use of the concept outwith of their church. The idea that the term and concept that marriage should be reserved for heterosexual relationships is morally bankrupt.
There are people who think the whole idea of marriage is bankrupt, but clearly those who are agitating for state-recognised homosexual marriage are not those people!
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
But yes, after that, we have to agree to disagree; however it would be good if you expressed yourself nicely rather than resort to the language of the gutter and didn't thereby try to deny my right to express my opinion on the matter. A necessary condition true democracy is that we allow all sides the freedom to put their views into the public domain without shouting them down...
Ah yes. The tone argument. "I'm trying to deny you fundamental rights and make sure your families have as little protection in law as possible and you're using mean words to describe my attempt to deny families their right to exist. Help, help. I'm being oppressed!"
And for the rest of this tangent, take it to dead horses, guys.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
In the UK the universally accepted view - legally as much as anything - is that marriage is the union of one man and one woman for life. There is nowhere in this country where you can stand on, use or live under any other definition.
You, and your minoriy of like-minded people, wanting to believe that marriage means anything else doesn't make it so.
If the government changes the law, they will do so against the wishes of the majority. I fundamentally disagree with SSM and will continue to believe that it is only valid for male and female.
I will never call a gay couple married, even if the law allows for it.
The government is WRONG.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I will never call a gay couple married, even if the law allows for it.
The government is WRONG.
How about divorced people? Are they married? Or people who marry their first cousins? Or white men who marry black women?
Yeah, you can be just as wrong as the 'government'.
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Forward the New Republic
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
In the UK the universally accepted view - legally as much as anything - is that marriage is the union of one man and one woman for life. There is nowhere in this country where you can stand on, use or live under any other definition.
The law changes. See slavery.
The accepted view was that slavery was morally acceptable, it became that it was totally unacceptable.
It is no longer an accepted view that marriage is a reserved term for heterosexuals. There is no settled view, there is no consensus view, there is no universal view. Continually stating these things as fact simply shows that you don't understand the definition of the words you are using.
quote:
You, and your minoriy of like-minded people, wanting to believe that marriage means anything else doesn't make it so.
Well that depends on whether you want to live in a democracy. In my view, if a minority wants a right which is accorded to another group, there is a compelling reason for the state to offer it, even if there are other groups who are offended. Whether you or others consider it to be Holy Matrimony is your religious problem.
quote:
If the government changes the law, they will do so against the wishes of the majority. I fundamentally disagree with SSM and will continue to believe that it is only valid for male and female.
I don't think there is any evidence that your view is a majority view. You are entitled to it, but you are also only left to fume when the law is changed, as it will be.
quote:
I will never call a gay couple married, even if the law allows for it.
The government is WRONG.
Again, nobody really cares if you like it or not. Nor should they.
[ 12. November 2012, 11:04: Message edited by: the long ranger ]
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Your problem, of course, is that the government and the opposition have ruined your plans.
Even if SSM was made legal, there is provision for the church to refuse to accept it and to refuse to perform the ceremonies.
The Catholic Church will refuse to do it.
The Church of England will refuse to do it.
The Salvation Army will refuse to do it.
Muslims will not have those ceremonies in mosques either.
So, get to the registrar's office, have your same sex wedding - but the churches will not accept it.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Your problem, of course, is that the government and the opposition have ruined your plans.
Even if SSM was made legal, there is provision for the church to refuse to accept it and to refuse to perform the ceremonies.
I don't think you are actually reading what I'm writing.
And frankly I don't think this has anything to do with the issue of Justin Welby.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
There was always the potential for the Dead Horse to over-ride this thread (that's if Dead Horses can over-ride I suppose). It now looks as though that over-riding is happening.
We've allowed some latitude, given the topic, but from now on please take same-sex-marriage and other aspects of homosexuality to Dead Horses, either by joining existing threads or opening a new one.
If possible, I want to leave this thread open in Purgatory to enable more general discussion. Please do your best to follow this guideline.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
(xposted with CK, who is forgiven)
[ 12. November 2012, 11:20: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Your problem, of course, is that the government and the opposition have ruined your plans.
Even if SSM was made legal, there is provision for the church to refuse to accept it and to refuse to perform the ceremonies.
The Catholic Church will refuse to do it.
The Church of England will refuse to do it.
The Salvation Army will refuse to do it.
Muslims will not have those ceremonies in mosques either.
So, get to the registrar's office, have your same sex wedding - but the churches will not accept it.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
OK, Mudfrog, you too are forgiven for the xpost, but no more please.
B62, Purg Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
Perhaps we can get away from this little digression and back to the important stuff - liturgy.
Do we know when the enthronement will be and what can we expect at it, beyond the obvious 'Justin Welby in a big chair moment'?
[ 12. November 2012, 11:30: Message edited by: Chapelhead ]
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Perhaps we can get away from this little digression and back to the important stuff - liturgy.
Do we know when the enthronement will be and what can we expect at it, beyond the obvious 'Justin Welby in a big chair moment'?
21 March, accordng to the news the other day. I don't know about content - I don't even know who decides about that.
Secular colleagues at work today have been talking more about Welby than Entwistle. The consensus seems to be that they're expecting him to be a good, plain-speaking, no-nonsense leader.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Do we know when the enthronement will be and what can we expect at it, beyond the obvious 'Justin Welby in a big chair moment'?
21 March, accordng to the news the other day.
Hmm, anniversary of the martydom of Thomas Cranmer, how very... something.
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
The more I read about Justin Welby the more I like the sound of him!
Those who have dismissed him as part of a privileged elite just because he went to Eton seem to be taking a very narrow view. He sounds like a man of wider and more varied life experience than many. He has faced a variety of life's difficulties as well as its comforts. I would have thought that would give him a good starting point to identify with a variety of ordinary people from different walks of life.
I personally warm to his humour as well.
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
I certainly don't understand why any monastery would give up on continuance by adopting a deliberate policy of closing its doors to new members. I was amazed to see that same thing happen with two other well known cases in England, and quite recently, another in the USA.
*
If a monastery is down to a handful of members, all of whom are pensioners, it is not really fair on novices to be faced with the prospect of the oldies departing quite soon, leaving them exposed and in charge. It therefore makes more sense to encourage such candidates for the religious life to look elsewhere, especially as there is such a shortage of candidates. Personally it surprises me that such institutions don't unite with others, but perhaps it's felt that the burden of the extra pensioners isn't really fair on the more dynamic community, as well as being disruptive to the life of the receiving community. But overall surely it's tidier to make the decision to close down than let a lingering half life persist indefinitely.
This. Novices usually discern a vocation to the religious life, not geriatric nursing. For the lingering half-life, I refer you to SSJE (UK branch). But I suggest we cease cluttering up +Justin's thread.
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Apologies for posting here and not dead horses before seeing the redirect. Please feel free to delete my last post.
[No probs, easily done; post deleted]
[ 12. November 2012, 20:35: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
Stephen Cottrell is Catholic but very evangelical
Sorry to quibble, but don't you mean evangelistic?
You are right. You shouldn't quibble. There is a range of messy overlapping meanings for the words evangel, evangelic, evangelical, evangelist, evangelistic, evangelistical.
To tell another poster what he must have meant by the word you think he should have used is to play the sophomore.
[ 13. November 2012, 01:42: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Do we know when the enthronement will be and what can we expect at it, beyond the obvious 'Justin Welby in a big chair moment'?
21 March, accordng to the news the other day.
Hmm, anniversary of the martydom of Thomas Cranmer, how very... something.
Yes, that is interesting.
Apparently........ the new Archbishop has recently taken to following someone on Twitter called Archbishop Cranmer @His_Grace, aka Adrian Hilton, who has some very interesting views.
Here's a blogpost on Hilton, and here's a brief extract from the post:
quote:
Weaving all this together, we have a very odd figure indeed in "His Grace" Archbishop Cranmer. His character is of someone who displays an unusual obsession with homosexuality. He will seemingly do anything he can to stop us getting full civil rights, but is happy enough to share a stage with us in real life, if he gets to do a song in the musical.
If Damian Thompson of the Telegraph is correct (and there is no reason to suspect he is not), the real life Cranmer is Adrian Hilton. Hilton is a part-time Daily Mail blogger. He is not just anti-gay; he believes that the EU is "antisemitic" and the Queen has been reduced to vassal status under the terms of the Maastricht Treaty. He apparently thinks this is part of a Papish process of undoing the Reformation and extending Vatican sovereignty over Britain. He believes that a Catholic on the throne would destroy our civil liberties. His dream law is anything to limit abortion. For him, Enoch Powell is a misunderstood "hero".
What a curious character to be the darling of the Christian blogosphere (including for many Catholics), to be ranked a "Top 10 Conservative Blogger", and for the future Archbishop of Canterbury to choose to follow on Twitter.
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
All kinds of things are unnecessarily read into the people one chooses to follow on twitter.
In this case it could simply be 'know your enemy'.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I would expect so. Archbishop Cranmer is a well known loony.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
All kinds of things are unnecessarily read into the people one chooses to follow on twitter.
In this case it could simply be 'know your enemy'.
Of course, as evidenced by my own list of Followed. The serendipity of the date struck me though, and I would have thought that the ABC would have staff to look after that sort of thing.
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
It seems that Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk has written a letter to ABCD Justin Welby. I wonder what ++ Justin's reply will look like?
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
It seems that Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk has written a letter to ABCD Justin Welby. I wonder what ++ Justin's reply will look like?
I would hope a polite version of "Mind your own business."
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
Is that really Father Vasiliy ?
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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daronmedway
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# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
It seems that Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk has written a letter to ABCD Justin Welby. I wonder what ++ Justin's reply will look like?
I would hope a polite version of "Mind your own business."
I have to admit that it reads like a menacing email, or a stroppy SoF post, that he just banged off without much thought.
[ 14. November 2012, 10:27: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
Is he important?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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the long ranger
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# 17109
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Posted
I'm not sure what the letter is about - it seems unfinished to me. Is he inviting the Anglicans need to leave all that dodgy women-and-gay-priests malarky and become united with the True Church? If so, perhaps it has more to do with domestic consumption than any real offer of friendship with Bishop Welby.
Also the greeting sounds a tad unlikely - do the Russian Orthodox really regard Anglican Bishops as a Brother and Lord Bishop?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
I think he's saying "you've moved further away from us with this ordaining women and teh gays so I think you should stop it and be more like us."
I could write a letter to him and the pope and tell them they're moving away from the rest of Christendom by their refusal to move on the OoW, but I expect they'd tell me to fuck off. There are a number of things that as an Anglican I care more about than whether Moscow thinks we're a million miles away from them ore merely a few hundred thousand.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
It does seem a bit snarky for a first letter, but not unexpectedly so - I don't suppose Metropolitan Hilarion is one for saying 'Peace, peace' where he thinks there is no peace. But perhaps my view is clouded by Orthodox people I have met in real life, who have tended to be of the 'Popular Front of Judea' types, who want nothing to do with the heretical 'Judean Popular Front' people.
My local Orthodox Church has a small bookstall selling suitably improving literature, including such gems as The Rush to Embrace, criticising the speed at which rapprochement between some parts of the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church is happening. If the Catholic Church is beyond the pale then Anglicanism isn't even on the horizon.
If I were Justin Welby, I wouldn't cross Metropolitan Hilarion off my Christmas card list just yet. Though I might be tempted to drop him a line and ask how that Pussy Riot business is going.
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
If I were Justin Welby, I wouldn't cross Metropolitan Hilarion off my Christmas card list just yet.
Good - but if one day you do happen to just wake up and find you've become Justin Welby, don't forget Christmas is 13 days later in Russia than in the west - they still use the Julian calender for holy days.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
apologies for double post, but...
Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev is currently the chairman of the Department of External Church Relations in the Moscow Patriarchate. So it would seem these things are his concern.
All this is nothing new, he and others have said similar things many times before. If Jesus prayed that the Church should be one, then it seems right and proper that we should all be working towards this, even when it seems nigh on impossible.
It should come as no surprise for Justin Welby to hear these things. Do you think anyone wants to hear ambiguous "nice" words which serve no other purpose than to confuse? Is insincerity the key for good inter-church relations?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think he's saying "you've moved further away from us with this ordaining women and teh gays so I think you should stop it and be more like us."
I could write a letter to him and the pope and tell them they're moving away from the rest of Christendom by their refusal to move on the OoW, but I expect they'd tell me to fuck off. There are a number of things that as an Anglican I care more about than whether Moscow thinks we're a million miles away from them ore merely a few hundred thousand.
Dead right.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think he's saying "you've moved further away from us with this ordaining women and teh gays so I think you should stop it and be more like us."
I could write a letter to him and the pope and tell them they're moving away from the rest of Christendom by their refusal to move on the OoW, but I expect they'd tell me to fuck off. There are a number of things that as an Anglican I care more about than whether Moscow thinks we're a million miles away from them ore merely a few hundred thousand.
Dead right.
I commend to you all the Special Theory of Relativity, and the inapplicability of using an observation from one frame of reference to what another observer sees from a second frame of reference.
We no longer have a single frame of reference.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
I commend to you all the Special Theory of Relativity, and the inapplicability of using an observation from one frame of reference to what another observer sees from a second frame of reference.
We no longer have a single frame of reference.
Exactly!!
...erm, I think....
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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