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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Patriarch Kirill, Pussy Riot, and feminism as un-Orthodox
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Sure, I see that Putin and his behaviour is very relevant.
It seems to me that if strongmen and dictators appear weak in the face of protest then they're going to be swept away. So Putin's only chance is to crack down hard. It might work or it might not work, but the only other option is to go quietly. At this stage there isn't middle ground.
Sadly, the expense is quite often a lot of human suffering.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Originally posted by night owl:
quote:
Russians have pretty much never experienced freedom and explained why things fell apart after Communism
this seems to have been a factor. ISTM the biggest factor was, and is, the economy. Dropping communism, for the USSR, was a bit like demolishing the house just ahead of it falling down on its own.
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Hallellou, hallellou
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Originally posted by night owl:
quote:
Russians have pretty much never experienced freedom and explained why things fell apart after Communism
this seems to have been a factor. ISTM the biggest factor was, and is, the economy. Dropping communism, for the USSR, was a bit like demolishing the house just ahead of it falling down on its own.
The main problem was not having a leader to nurture both freedom and establishing an economy - or to use your analogy a builder ready to get the new house up immediately. It could have been done as Putin was able to get the economy up and Russia became a land of prosperity. The problem was he slowly started killing freedom at the same time.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Dropping communism, for the USSR, was a bit like demolishing the house just ahead of it falling down on its own.
An excellent simile; quite accurate, I think.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Although perhaps tempered by the fact that in North Korea it has been possible for the house to come crashing down in every way possible as far as the inhabitants of it are concerned, and yet for the dictator to retain an iron-gripped control of it.
I don't know enough really, but I'd speculate that the USSR was economically much worse off economically under Stalin than during Gorbachev's time.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Although perhaps tempered by the fact that in North Korea it has been possible for the house to come crashing down in every way possible as far as the inhabitants of it are concerned, and yet for the dictator to retain an iron-gripped control of it.
I don't know enough really, but I'd speculate that the USSR was economically much worse off economically under Stalin than during Gorbachev's time.
Perhaps a better analogy with N. Korea being the "supreme (in his mind) leader" is in the Safe Room that survived the collapse and utter destruction of the rest of the house.
By the time Gorbachev was in office the U.S.S.R. they were spending money on the military and trying to prop up satellite states as well as Cuba that simply wasn't there. What money was there came from hard currency spending from wealthy people who vacationed there in the high end tourist hotels. One of the the things that struck me was how starkly bad everything was for the citizens, from the airport where their end of it didn't even have chairs compared to the section for foreigners which had comfortable sofas and chairs and high end hard currency, very well stocked shops. The economy wasn't in great shape for citizens as they couldn't obtain many basic items and often waited in long lines in many separate shops for what they could get. In short, the collapse of the U.S.S.R. was caused in part by the lack of hard currency (the ruble didn't exist outside of the U.S.S.R. and couldn't be used to pay for import items) to pay the bills.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Let me show my lack of understanding of economics by asking this: If a country is materially producing things (food, goods and the like) to a greater degree under Gorbachev than under Stalin, and less people are starving under Gorbachev than they were under Stalin, how is it that their currency and state may be closer to collapse under Gorbachev? (Not denying it, just not understanding)
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Because a booming economy isn't enough to hold together an oppressive state facing rising internal opposition?
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
Not sure about the currency! But for the state, once there wasn't the political will to use force to maintain control (of the satellite states as well, hence the domino effect in 1989) then 'things fall apart, the centre cannot hold'.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
So I can see the argument that Stalin was oppressive enough to hold together a failing state full of economic hardship, whereas Gorbachev wouldn't go that far. And that rising internal opposition was a factor for Gorbachev but not for Stalin.
But I suspect that there's also something else complicated about the state of the rouble that I'm also not getting...
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Let me show my lack of understanding of economics by asking this: If a country is materially producing things (food, goods and the like) to a greater degree under Gorbachev than under Stalin, and less people are starving under Gorbachev than they were under Stalin, how is it that their currency and state may be closer to collapse under Gorbachev? (Not denying it, just not understanding)
Aside from the other answers the ruble was worthless outside of the country, not to mention illegal to take it out of the country. If it's worthless outside of the country you can't purchase materials or products needed from other countries. You only income then is from hard currency income and if you spending out hard currency far outstrips your income you are then unable to purchase materials needed for your own manufacturing. Not to mention there was never enough food in the U.S.S.R. Collective farming run by communist states has never produced enough and the best was always set aside for the tourists who came in with their hard currency, the poor citizens got whatever was left over or of poor quality.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
And this had deteriorated since Stalin's time? Or simply that the other factors mentioned by MT and Haydee were coming to a head at the same time?
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
Well, the arms race had vastly increased in expense. Plus, Stalin post-World War II was able to asset strip occupied territories and rely on free (pretty much slave) labour for state projects.
The currency was only a problem in getting foreign supplies surely? And there were huge supplies of oil and other natural resources within the USSR if you didn't worry about things like environmental sustainability, citizens standard of living (or citizens staying alive...).
According to a number of people I met when I spent a month in Russia a few years ago (those who would talk about 'those times' - many didn't want to), most people in towns and even small cities used access to a family dacha or plot of land to grow vegetables, get mushrooms & berries from forests etc. which were then preserved. In fact even the centre of the big cities didn't seem very far from countryside on the public transport system.
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
And this had deteriorated since Stalin's time? Or simply that the other factors mentioned by MT and Haydee were coming to a head at the same time?
I'd hardly call the Soviet economy at any time in it's history booming - there was always shortages of just about everything, long lines and crappy quality for the citizens. Tourists wouldn't have noticed because they got the best of everything. Shortages were never mentioned, if they didn't have something they'd make up something on the spot, for instance coffee was never available, but the excuse 24/7 was that they'd just run out and a new pot hadn't been brewed yet. I would agree with Haydee though that there wasn't the will to use Stalin's tactics. Add to that an ever bad economy...
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
That gives me a better picture of it, thanks.
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Sure, I see that Putin and his behaviour is very relevant.
It seems to me that if strongmen and dictators appear weak in the face of protest then they're going to be swept away. So Putin's only chance is to crack down hard. It might work or it might not work, but the only other option is to go quietly. At this stage there isn't middle ground.
Sadly, the expense is quite often a lot of human suffering.
I wonder how many years
this sort of humour would get you in Russia.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
The interviewer deserves massive points for supreme zen-like control of facial expression, especially the corners of his mouth.
I expect it would only get you time on the inside¹ in Russia if you made it about Putin's arse or something.
¹ So to speak.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
Meanwhile, now that the Orthodox muscles have been flexed, we have this.
A 404 error?
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Link worked for me. Is about a theatre group wishing to do Jesus Christ Superstar, a few local Orthodox with their knickers in a twist about it getting the production shut down and a law going through the Russian parliament to ban things about which religious knickers get twisted.
Perhaps this link will work for you.
[ 29. September 2012, 14:57: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Perhaps this link will work for you.
Yes, that worked, thank you. What a great way to prove that religion is fragile and weak and can't cope with real life.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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watervole
Apprentice
# 17174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Perhaps this link will work for you.
Yes, that worked, thank you. What a great way to prove that religion is fragile and weak and can't cope with real life.
There was a deal more fuss on made on both sides of the atlantic over Jerry Springer the Opera...
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Right. The governments in question shut it down and are considering laws to ban it. Oh, wait...
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
There is some interesting background to this news. The freed member had changed her lawyer, from one that was using the group as scapegoats to win western sympathy for "freedom of speech" to a better one who actually worked in her interests.
I wonder now if this will cause conflicts between the members.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
...however, I don't expect many to believe me, particularly as western media failed to report this aspect.
Here's my source:
Pussy Riot member released on probation, sentence upheld for 2 others
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I have no idea how one would evidence quote:
using the group as scapegoats to win western sympathy for "freedom of speech"
as a characterisation of the previous lawyer's conduct.
I'm unclear why freedom of speech is in scare quotes, or why the West needs particular prompting to feel any sympathy for freedom of speech, and the concept of being a scapegoat to win sympathy doesn't make sense to me.
Is the allegation that they lawyer was being deliberately crap so that they would get sent down and thus win sympathy? That seems unlikely to me.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Much as I like Russia Today, I don't think it is the most accurate of sources.
And the western media is?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I have no idea how one would evidence quote:
using the group as scapegoats to win western sympathy for "freedom of speech"
as a characterisation of the previous lawyer's conduct.
I'm unclear why freedom of speech is in scare quotes, or why the West needs particular prompting to feel any sympathy for freedom of speech, and the concept of being a scapegoat to win sympathy doesn't make sense to me.
Is the allegation that they lawyer was being deliberately crap so that they would get sent down and thus win sympathy? That seems unlikely to me.
It is my suggestion that the original legal representation for the girls was more interested in humiliating Russia in the eyes of the western media, than they were in actually defending the group.
I know it is speculation, but if it's untrue why did the freed member of the group change her legal representation?
Furthermore, why were the western media silent on the above fact?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Is changing lawyers a big deal? I thought that kind of thing happened all the time.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
It is my suggestion that the original legal representation for the girls was more interested in humiliating Russia in the eyes of the western media, than they were in actually defending the group.
I know it is speculation, but if it's untrue why did the freed member of the group change her legal representation?
That's the only reason you can think of? Really? Really really? Honest to God, cross your heart and hope to die?
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
True insight!
What do you mean leo?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That's the only reason you can think of? Really? Really really? Honest to God, cross your heart and hope to die?
Well, no. Thinking back to the girls' defences in the original trial, it didn't appear that their testimony was even attempting to get them a lighter sentence. There was no acknowledgement of any wrongdoing, no repentence, nothing!
Is that the way to get out of jail?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
No but it's honest. And it doesn't particularly support the idea that it was a manipulative lawyer letting them down either.
You seem to have remarkably tenuous grounds for your supposition.
Maybe they all decided they were going to stand by their political protest and take the consequences. Political protesters are often prepared to go to prison for their principles.
I think the Russian judiciary and Patriarch Krill were perfectly capable of humiliating themselves in the eyes of the Western media without any help from the defence lawyers.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Political protesters are often prepared to go to prison for their principles.
Well here we are again. Don't you think that there might just be a remote possibility that they may not be "political prisoners" at all, merely publicity seekers?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Inger
Shipmate
# 15285
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Political protesters are often prepared to go to prison for their principles.
Well here we are again. Don't you think that there might just be a remote possibility that they may not be "political prisoners" at all, merely publicity seekers?
If that were indeed the case, what would they have to lose by a little pretend remorse? The very fact that they won't back down seems to me an indication that their protest was political. They've had all the publicity they could want, but it won't do them much good if they're stuck in prison.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
... I think the Russian judiciary and Patriarch Krill were perfectly capable of humiliating themselves in the eyes of the Western media without any help from the defence lawyers.
Is the Western media the forum they either would or should be thinking of, when exercising roles within their own country?
I wouldn't expect an English judge or Archbishop to be looking over their shoulder wondering what the Russian press might think of them. I wouldn't respect them if that was what drove them. Nor, I suggest, would you?
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
... I think the Russian judiciary and Patriarch Krill were perfectly capable of humiliating themselves in the eyes of the Western media without any help from the defence lawyers.
Is the Western media the forum they either would or should be thinking of, when exercising roles within their own country?
I wouldn't expect an English judge or Archbishop to be looking over their shoulder wondering what the Russian press might think of them. I wouldn't respect them if that was what drove them. Nor, I suggest, would you?
The point is, not that the the good Archbishop and the judiciary had set out to do any such thing, but rather that, had they been so minded, they could hardly have done a better job.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Yeses, but would you care, or would you expect a UK judge or Archbishop to care, whether they'd upset the Russian media?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Of course not. What was your point?
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Well here we are again. Don't you think that there might just be a remote possibility that they may not be "political prisoners" at all, merely publicity seekers?
As Inger says, the probability of that goes down once it is clear that they are ready to go to prison.
The other things that increase the probability of genuine political protest is that there's a lot to protest. Putin really is behaving rather badly, and there has been quite a lot of political protest against him.
Why do you think they aren't politically motivated?
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Of course not. What was your point?
My point is that it's totally unreasonable for us or the western media to get all excited about the fact that the Russian judges and Patriarch don't seem to care about what we might think of them. Why should they? How it plays in Russia is significant. Our views are irrelevant.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Enoch, do you think this has been anything other than a PR disaster for Putin, and his attempt to portray Russia as an enlightened democracy finally taking its place as a mature, liberal country around the international circuit. I doubt that Kirill and the judges have much concern for Russia's standing in these matters, but I would guess it figures prominently on Putin's radar. (Of course, as President of a world power, he has other things of greater weight to worry about, but he can't think it helpful, surely?)
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I think what the western chattering classes think about the Pussy Rioters is very low on Putin's radar, and if I were Putin, I would agree with him.
As regards Pussy Rioters, only two things really matter to Putin, what Russian public opinion thinks, and how much Russian public opinion matters.
As regards international public opinion, what other parts of the world think where Russia seeks to maintain or advance its interests matter as much if not more as what we think.
Most people in Britain probably don't care all that much about the Pussy Rioters. Most people in places like India or Africa haven't heard of them at all, and if they had, would probably respect the Russian authorities for squashing them.
I would have thought the one area of Russian policy where how it plays in world public opinion might genuinely matter to Russia is Syria. By backing an authoritarian Syrian regime which appears to much of the rest of the world to be on the skids, is he backing the wrong side? Or does it matter more to him that he shows client regimes that he won't dump them when the going gets rough?
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That's the only reason you can think of? Really? Really really? Honest to God, cross your heart and hope to die?
Well, no. Thinking back to the girls' defences in the original trial, it didn't appear that their testimony was even attempting to get them a lighter sentence. There was no acknowledgement of any wrongdoing, no repentence, nothing!
Is that the way to get out of jail?
Seriously? Your objection to Pussy Riot here is that they pled Not Guilty?
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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