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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Patriarch Kirill, Pussy Riot, and feminism as un-Orthodox
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
My point is that it's totally unreasonable for us or the western media to get all excited about the fact that the Russian judges and Patriarch don't seem to care about what we might think of them. Why should they? How it plays in Russia is significant. Our views are irrelevant.
And the relevance of that point? I don't see how it's got anything to do with my point.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I've a problem answering your question because it seems to me self-evident. I responded to your statement,
quote:
I think the Russian judiciary and Patriarch Krill were perfectly capable of humiliating themselves in the eyes of the Western media without any help from the defence lawyers.
to say that from where they are standing, I don't think what the eyes of the western media think is relevant. Why should they care?
I'd have thought that was obvious. I'd go on to say, that given what seems to be obvious, what is anyone's argument for saying they are wrong? Again, why should they care? If you are Russian, this plays itself out differently. Why should it do otherwise?
Unless one can come up with a convincing argument that is valid if you are Putin, a Russian judge or the Patriarch, what really is the point of getting steamed up about this subject?
I've said my piece. Either this is obvious or it isn't. I can't think of much else to say.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
But my point doesn't rest on them caring. Whether they care or not they did it all by themselves without any help.
Mark Betts said the defence lawyers were out to make the Russian judiciary and Patriarch look bad in the Western media. I say they did that all by themselves without the defence lawyers doing anything special.
It doesn't matter that they don't care or not, they didn't need the defence lawyers to do it. So what you say is true, but it doesn't change my point.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Then again, it isn't just the Western press who are critical. According to the Moscow Times: quote:
"Blasphemy mania" has spread to Russia, says Victor Davidoff. Orthodox priests, still smarting from the Pussy Riot scandal, when girls in punk outfits shouted obscene slogans in a Moscow cathedral, demand tough new laws against "offending the religious beliefs of others". The politic seem happy to oblige: the "crime" will get you three years. Forging bonds with the conservative Church may help Putin suppress liberal dissent, but it gives a free pass to religious activists to ind their paranoia. Some are already threatening a blogger for writing "god" with a lower-case "g", in St Petersburg they're even trying to sue a dairy company for "promoting homosexuality" with Jolly Milkman label. "No, the Jolly Milkman wasn't kissing his boyfriend" — what "enrages" the the rainbow in the background, which they see as a symbol of the gay-rights movement. What ne "A bill banning minors from looking at the sky after a storm?" How depressing that Russia has abandoned its secular constitution and is starting to ape countries like Iran.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Exactly. What Russians think about this matters. What we think doesn't.
Now I will shut up.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Exactly. What Russians think about this matters. What we think doesn't.
That seems to go beyond the narrow point and into a wider point - I was with you that what we thought of this is unlikely to matter to Kirill or to the Russian Judiciary but to argue that what we think simply doesn't matter is a step further.
I think it is legitimate to express opinions about what happens in other countries, particularly where issues such as freedom of speech or democracy or injustice are concerned.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Now I will shut up.
Well there is a certain irony in posting serially to say that what we think doesn't matter.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Now I will shut up.
Well there is a certain irony in posting serially to say that what we think doesn't matter.
Not to mention where it was posted.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Then again, it isn't just the Western press who are critical. According to the Moscow Times:
etc etc...
Yeah, yeah, well done for quoting a paper owned by a Finland corporation!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
But the author of the book cited is Russian.
..and I'm fairly sure you could find many more Russians who subscribe to this mentality, but that's not to say this is a majority view by any chalk - what's your point?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
That strikes me as not so much "out of touch" as stupid.
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I am still musing on how, apparently, out of touch the Russian Orthodox hierarchy is. Some are advising people not to use Apple computers because they see a connection with Adam and Eve eating an apple.
There's a better reason than that: digital computers are based on two, the devil's number.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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JonahMan
Shipmate
# 12126
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That strikes me as not so much "out of touch" as stupid.
On a par with renaming French Fries because your reluctant ally doesn't have the same view about starting a war.
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Posts: 914 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Dec 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That strikes me as not so much "out of touch" as stupid.
On a par with renaming French Fries because your reluctant ally doesn't have the same view about starting a war.
Yes and no. Both are stupid, but in different ways.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The "Freedom Fries" nonsense was a symbolic gesture. Stupid, yes, but the Russian Orthodox reaction to the Apple logo is stupid with a serving superstition, topped with theocratic rubbish.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The "Freedom Fries" nonsense was a symbolic gesture. Stupid, yes, but the Russian Orthodox reaction to the Apple logo is stupid with a serving superstition, topped with theocratic rubbish.
I'd add that Apple identifies with its logo- it is the symbol of the brand. France doesn't particularly identify with french fries- IIRC, the French term is "frites Belgique"...
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The "Freedom Fries" nonsense was a symbolic gesture. Stupid, yes, but the Russian Orthodox reaction to the Apple logo is stupid with a serving superstition, topped with theocratic rubbish.
I'd add that Apple identifies with its logo- it is the symbol of the brand. France doesn't particularly identify with french fries- IIRC, the French term is "frites Belgique"...
I believe it's "pommes frites."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
IIRC, the French term is "frites Belgique"...
I believe it's "pommes frites."
Could be a regional thing, as well- my teachers were Parisian, for the most part. Others may well have other terms.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
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Posted
Frites from a Belgian friture are vastly superior to any you could get anywhere in France IMHO,
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I thought in France they were just 'frites'!
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
Interesting article detailing why, in Russia, many felt that the "Punk Prayer" song was more to do with religious hatred, than a protest against president Putin:
What Pussy Riot's 'Punk Prayer' Really Said
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
In fact, the rest of the punk prayer's lyrics amount to an iconoclastic cri de coeur deriding popular Russian subservience to a clergy many regard as corrupt, denouncing (widespread, in Russia) conservative attitudes toward gays, assailing the increasingly tight relationship between church and the (constitutionally secular) state, as well ridiculing the age-old perception in Russia that rulers exercise power through a mandate from God (or, in the Soviet era, though a mandate from history, the Marxist version of which posited the death of capitalism and the triumph of communism). Putin, accordingly, was not Pussy Riot's only target. The band was challenging the entirety of the social and political order he has fostered since coming to power almost 13 years ago.
Sounds fair enough to me. People might label that religious hatred, but it really isn't. It strikes me as perfectly legitimate criticism.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Mark,
The article simply underscores the point most of the world has been making: The protest is about Putin and the church leaders being in bed with him. I don't see any religious hatred there.
But, let us suppose there was. So. Fucking. What?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Mark,
The article simply underscores the point most of the world has been making: The protest is about Putin and the church leaders being in bed with him. I don't see any religious hatred there.
But, let us suppose there was. So. Fucking. What?
So. Fucking. THIS:
Russia's State Duma plans new law to defend the rights of believers following Pussy Riot protest
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So much for freedom of speech.
Do we, in the UK, have complete freedom of speech? Can we say anything we want (no matter how offensive) to or about anyone or anything we want, anywhere we want?
Of course not, and God forbid that we should!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
And the conclusion you draw from that is that freedom of speech doesn't matter and therefore any amount of repression is justified?
I also don't see how the line of discussion is an answer to lil Buddha's point either.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
And the conclusion you draw from that is that freedom of speech doesn't matter and therefore any amount of repression is justified?
Er... no. That's not the conclusion I draw, it's the conclusion YOU draw.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Well if it's not the conclusion you draw than what is the conclusion you draw?
(It certainly isn't my conclusion by the way)
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Well if it's not the conclusion you draw than what is the conclusion you draw?
(It certainly isn't my conclusion by the way)
Very simple - it's not all or nothing, which seems to be the conclusion you draw (not me). I was just asking how we in the "enlightened" west can preach to others about "freedom of speech" when we do not, and cannot, have it ourselves. Simply put, if we did have absolute "freedom of speech" (which we don't) the results would be catastrophic.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
it's not all or nothing, which seems to be the conclusion you draw (not me).
Not sure where you think I draw that conclusion.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I was just asking how we in the "enlightened" west can preach to others about "freedom of speech" when we do not, and cannot, have it ourselves.
One might believe that ideally we would have more freedom of speech than we currently do. However what is happening in Russia seems very much more oppressive than our current situation, and describing it as repressive is a consistent position.
One might, on the other hand, believe that perfect freedom of speech isn't realistic but we have a reasonable(ish) balance in the UK. It would then still be perfectly reasonable to describe a repressive situation in Russia as repressive.
It seems to me that there are grounds for reasonable people to disagree over just how much freedom of speech is desirable, and over how good the situation in the UK is.
It seems unreasonable to argue that the situation in Russia regarding freedom of speech is appropriate, and certainly unreasonable to argue that the laws proposed in the article you link to are a good thing.
I wonder if you would have felt any inhibitions about "preaching" to Russia regarding freedom of speech during the communist era?
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
There is a balance between absolute freedom and absolute repression. The goal, IMO should be as near freedom as is practical. Russia is marching in the other direction.
Ignoring for the moment the lack of need to, do you honestly think if Pussy Riot had performed their punk prayer in a Lutheran church (Buddhist temple, etc.), they would have received the same sentence? The same outrage? This is not about insulting religion.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Mark,
The article simply underscores the point most of the world has been making: The protest is about Putin and the church leaders being in bed with him. I don't see any religious hatred there.
But, let us suppose there was. So. Fucking. What?
So. Fucking. THIS:
Russia's State Duma plans new law to defend the rights of believers following Pussy Riot protest
So the Russian church, having seen Pussy Riot protest the corruption of their church demonstrates this by trying to put themselves above criticism rathter than throw the money changers out of the cathedral?
So. Fucking. Underlining. The. Point.
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
So the Russian church, having seen Pussy Riot protest the corruption of their church demonstrates this by trying to put themselves above criticism rathter than throw the money changers out of the cathedral?
So. Fucking. Underlining. The. Point.
Agreed. It grieves me to see the Russian church so easily going back to their Soviet position, compromising it's faith to curry favor with a government that has suppressed freedom and is in the process of crushing any protest. I've seen it before.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Is this the sort of thing American Evangelicals want when they say that the separation of church and state has gone too far?
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Is this the sort of thing American Evangelicals want when they say that the separation of church and state has gone too far?
Not exactly. In the U.S. the evangelicals want to dictate to government, whereas in Russia it's the government dictating to the church that apparently the official Russian Orthodox church has no problem with. They have a history of this. ETA: Referring to the Moscow church, not the Russian Orthodox church elsewhere.
[ 12. November 2012, 07:42: Message edited by: Niteowl ]
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
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