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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Patriarch Kirill, Pussy Riot, and feminism as un-Orthodox
mousethief

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Apologies for snarkiness.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
It would allow us at least to still offer those prayers without saying anything that I, if a deacon or priest, simply could not say. May God forgive me.

None of us have perfect leaders in church, and yet we may pray for them with a clean conscience. The office is given by God, and can be described and respected in our prayers despite feelings of deep regret for their actions.

And as Christians, we really are all in it together. None of us can say that this does not reflect on us or our community in some way.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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fletcher christian

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I'm a little confused. Some reports say that Pussy Riot walked into an already open church, others say there was a kerfuffle outside the church and then after they broke in they were chased by police and curious spectators. Some reports say that Pussy Riot sang a prayer to be rid of Putin, others say they sang a song called 'Holy Shit' mocking the church without any reference to Putin. Some reports say they have been charged with attacking Putin publicly, others say they have been charged with hooliganism (which also covers a charge of b&e and damage to property). I wonder if there was a point where the truth of the thing got lost and can't be got back.

For my own part I feel their sentence seems crazy. I think they should have received a small fine and a slap on the wrist, but jail seems a tad mad, and yes, Krill is Putin's bitch. Power is an incredible intoxication to some.

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Berwickshire
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Mutinous Seadog,

Nothing particularly difficult to understand. A publicity-seeking punk band staged a stunt. It was, in unedited takes, a brief, confused rabble, quickly broken up by security men and a solidly-built nun. The professionally-edited clips make the best of it and dub in a better performance of their little number for mp3 clients. The punks understood perfectly how to outrage believers: some clips have a neat reaction shot of old ladies in the notorious “mohair bonnets” worn by those too poor to afford fur.

For the Orthodox, the presence of women will profane the most sacred spaces and, while they kept clear (or were locked out) of this pollution, they did a neat parody of crossings and prostrations, except only that they positioned themselves backside-on to the iconostasis. The words are a traditional chant which then erupts into a strident parody aimed at the Orthodox church and with an anti-Semitic smear thrown in for good luck (they are Russians after all). Rather than dress decently in church, these punks (once they stripped off the fur coats they slipped in wearing) did a Moulin Rouge routine in short dresses in lurid colours, looking much like ladies who were no better than they ought to be.

Three of the perpetrators were caught, one swearing she was not even there. So having been banged up for a couple of months (during which an axe-wielding supporter had a go at the judge) they were convicted following due process. Far from the exemplary punishment some were hoping for, they were let off lightly and will soon be free to pursue their careers, with martyr-status among western liberals.

Russian blogs are saying it is a pity we have abolished the death penalty. Western liberals, keen as ever to impose their views on Holy Russia, are making much the noises which might be expected. The insolent punks may have expected to scamper away unscathed from their hooliganism but have instead been banged to rights.

So, Western liberals will have another chance to attack Russia’s democratically-elected president, her legal system and an Orthodox Church which commands majority support, not that any of this much matters now that these hooligans have got their chance to spend some months reflecting on their misdeeds. The prosecution makes perfect sense and is no reason to attack Russia (not that critics need much reason). Unthinking refusal to accept that other cultures and religions are not obliged to conform to Anglo-Saxon norms is an incredible intoxication to some.

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Timothy the Obscure

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You can watch the video here.

From Wikipedia:

quote:
 Text of the song included phrases like "Virgin Mary, drive Putin away", "Virgin Mary, become a feminist", "all parishoners crawl on their bellies", "holy shit", etc. 
As far as I'm concerned, it was an entirely legitimate act of political expression--especially since the ROC has been so enmeshed with the Russian state. They sang a prayer in church that the hierarchy didn't agree with. So? George Fox used to interrupt sermons to argue with the priest's theology.

"Hooliganism," as far as I can tell, is the equivalent of what in the US is called "disorderly conduct," which in practice means "anything the cops (or their bosses) don't like."

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
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Demas
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quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
For the Orthodox, the presence of women will profane the most sacred spaces and, while they kept clear (or were locked out) of this pollution,

Seriously?

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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Berwickshire
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Perfectly seriously. The statutes of the medieval western church excluded women from the chancel for the same reason. The question is not whether we happen to agree with the custom, the band knew exactly what they were doing and the insult to Orthodox custom is quite deliberate. Now they are having to take the consequences and seem pretty unapologetic: securing their western fan base will be well worth the price. We need to understand how the Orthodox think rather than impose our values on them. Same is true with an attempt to “translate” hooliganism, a specific aspect of the Russian penal code, into western jurisprudence or protestant non-conformist custom rather than to understand Russia on her own terms. The unthinking imperialism on this thread is very striking. These punks got off lightly.
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Demas
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quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
The statutes of the medieval western church excluded women from the chancel for the same reason.

Then they were also wrong.

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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Berwickshire
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Fine, I am sure you could blow all 50-odd volumes of Mansi out of the water on that argument. The point is that while one is perfectly entitled to one’s own opinion, that does not confer a right to impose western or American values on the rest of the world, in happy ignorance of other cultures. Many Russians are outraged, which is of course exactly what the band intended. The breach of the law could hardly have been clearer so the remedy here is to persuade the Orthodox that they should change their traditions to suit your opinions. Good luck with that one. The alternative (and this is not easy for westerners) is to think it possible that you may be mistaken.
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Demas
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Real live moral relativism! How exciting.

Not sure what grounds you have to criticise my imperialism, though. After all, its just part of my culture as you say. What right do you have to impose your view on me that I shouldn't be imperialistic?

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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Berwickshire
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I will defer to your judgement on the classification of my heresy but if I read you correctly, you disagree with the traditional view that the presence of a woman will pollute sacred spaces.

For my own part I am more interested in understanding the Orthodox than telling them what they ought to do but I can assure you that, should you wish to persuade them of the errors of their way, it will most commonly be taken as western imperialism.

I don’t see much understanding in this thread of either the depth of offence these punks have given or of the extent to which it was commercially calculated. It is the carefully-calculated insult to what people see as sacred that is at the core of the offence.

Westerns’ unthinking support for these hooligans (and as I said tou are entitled to your view of who to support) is what convinces me that this line will never persuade the Orthodox.

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Demas
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quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
I will defer to your judgement on the classification of my heresy but if I read you correctly, you disagree with the traditional view that the presence of a woman will pollute sacred spaces.

The idea is appalling and blasphemous.

quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
I don’t see much understanding in this thread of either the depth of offence these punks have given or of the extent to which it was commercially calculated.

Commercially?

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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lilBuddha
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Seriously, you do not think any part of their protest valid? Kirill is Putin's puppet and cares more for power and wealth than being a proper patriarch.
My favourite thing is him giving an interview on the importance of asceticism whilst wearing a 20,000 pound watch.

The former catholic pope, when shot, prayed for his attacker and forgave him. Kirill turned purple and whined for stiff prosecution for a song.

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Timothy the Obscure

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quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
...if I read you correctly, you disagree with the traditional view that the presence of a woman will pollute sacred spaces....

Because I am not a moral relativist, I believe that the absolute equality of the sexes is an absolute moral imperative. In any case, I've never seen any claim that Pussy Riot's actions would have been OK if only they'd been male.

[ 18. August 2012, 03:39: Message edited by: Timothy the Obscure ]

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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mousethief

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Unthinking? Really? All of them? Every single person who is calling for their release didn't think about it?

Bullfuckingshit.

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Josephine

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quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
We need to understand how the Orthodox think rather than impose our values on them.

If you want to understand how the Orthodox think, if you are, as you said, "more interested in understanding the Orthodox than telling them what they ought to do" you could try asking us. There are a number of us here. Some of us have even posted on this thread.

Your statements misrepresent our faith and our Tradition. To be quite frank, I found them vile and insulting.

I would appreciate it very much if you'd quit speaking for us. We are quite capable of speaking for ourselves.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
If you want to understand how the Orthodox think, if you are, as you said, "more interested in understanding the Orthodox than telling them what they ought to do" you could try asking us. There are a number of us here. Some of us have even posted on this thread.

Your statements misrepresent our faith and our Tradition. To be quite frank, I found them vile and insulting.


I don't think this is entirely fair, Josephine. All of us Orthodox go wrong sometimes and say things which misrepresent our tradition. I wouldn't go as far as Berwickshire, especially in his reference to the death penalty (which has never even been mentioned before), but there are some within Orthodoxy who think this way. He has, however, touched on the eastern/western differences on how we view holy places, which is an important part of the discussions, without which we cannot hope to understand what's gone on.

quote:
I would appreciate it very much if you'd quit speaking for us. We are quite capable of speaking for ourselves.
As said, neither do the few Orthodox on this board entirely represent Orthodoxy perfectly - so let him say what he likes, and if you disagree then fair enough - but just tell us, without trying to censor equally valid viewpoints.

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Anselmina
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Berwickshire's posts make me rather glad I'm a Western liberal, if that means not wishing to see people imprisoned for two years because of a political stunt, where things ended, effectually, harmlessly. My own 'unthinking' responses - along with all the other 'unthinking' responses can be read on this thread if Berwickshire would be bothered to read them.

It's clear many posters here don't like or are repulsed by church disturbances such as this band attempted. I can easily imagine that worshippers were indeed deeply hurt and insulted. But that shouldn't justify ignoring the disproportionate sentencing.

As for the West making martyrs of the band members; only possible thanks to the heavy-handed Russian authorities.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:

As for the West making martyrs of the band members; only possible thanks to the heavy-handed Russian authorities.

Exactly - a fine or community service and the whole thing would have fizzled out.

It also concerns me that these three women are mothers. Separating them from their children for this stunt is unbelievably harsh.

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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Pussy Riot were prosecuted by the State, right? Not the Orthodox Church?

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Pussy Riot were prosecuted by the State, right? Not the Orthodox Church?

Correct.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
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Just thought I'd get clarification on that - thread seems to be blurring the line a tad

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
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mdijon
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It blurs the line when Kirill calls for and supports an inappropriate prison sentence for a protest carried out in a church and is Putin's puppet. And many on this thread seem to think the crime particularly deserving of punishment because of the religious/profanity aspect.

[ 18. August 2012, 08:44: Message edited by: mdijon ]

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I'm a Western liberal, if that means not wishing to see people imprisoned for two years because of a political stunt, where things ended, effectually, harmlessly.

Haven't you forgotten about the youtube video?

...and the lyrics which were circulated around the world:

Virgin Mary, Mother of God, put Putin away
Put Putin away, put Putin away

Black robe, golden epaulettes
All parishioners crawl to bow
The phantom of liberty is in heaven
Gay-pride sent to Siberia in chains

The head of the KGB, their chief saint,
Leads protesters to prison under escort
In order not to offend His Holiness
Women must give birth and love

Shit, shit, the Lord’s shit!
Shit, shit, the Lord’s shit!

Virgin Mary, Mother of God, become a feminist
Become a feminist, become a feminist

The Church’s praise of rotten dictators
The cross-bearer procession of black limousines
A teacher-preacher will meet you at school
Go to class – bring him money!

Patriarch Gundyaev believes in Putin
Bitch, better believe in God instead
The belt of the Virgin can’t replace mass-meetings
Mary, Mother of God, is with us in protest!

Virgin Mary, Mother of God, put Putin away
Put Putin away, put Putin away.


[ 18. August 2012, 10:58: Message edited by: Mark Betts ]

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Mark Betts

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So the fact that you can watch this video, filmed inside Moscow's cathedral, and read the lyrics, is why the young ladies got two years instead of a slap on the wrists.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Demas
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
So the fact that you can watch this video, filmed inside Moscow's cathedral, and read the lyrics, is why the young ladies got two years instead of a slap on the wrists.

Indeed. They are being punished because their protest was successful.

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
So the fact that you can watch this video, filmed inside Moscow's cathedral, and read the lyrics, is why the young ladies got two years instead of a slap on the wrists.

Indeed. They are being punished because their protest was successful.
Yes - but punishing them has made it far more successful.

We wouldn't be discussing it here otherwise.

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Augustine the Aleut
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I do not know if the reporting is accurate, but the paper edition of today's Globe & Mail tells us that the Orthodox Church has urged leniency and would not object to a pardon. I think that it would have been a helpful gesture if they had done so before sentencing, although I am not sure if Russian legal procedure has a sentencing stage.
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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I'm a Western liberal, if that means not wishing to see people imprisoned for two years because of a political stunt, where things ended, effectually, harmlessly.

Haven't you forgotten about the youtube video?

...and the lyrics which were circulated around the world:

Virgin Mary, Mother of God, put Putin away
Put Putin away, put Putin away

Black robe, golden epaulettes
All parishioners crawl to bow
The phantom of liberty is in heaven
Gay-pride sent to Siberia in chains

The head of the KGB, their chief saint,
Leads protesters to prison under escort
In order not to offend His Holiness
Women must give birth and love

Shit, shit, the Lord’s shit!
Shit, shit, the Lord’s shit!

Virgin Mary, Mother of God, become a feminist
Become a feminist, become a feminist

The Church’s praise of rotten dictators
The cross-bearer procession of black limousines
A teacher-preacher will meet you at school
Go to class – bring him money!

Patriarch Gundyaev believes in Putin
Bitch, better believe in God instead
The belt of the Virgin can’t replace mass-meetings
Mary, Mother of God, is with us in protest!

Virgin Mary, Mother of God, put Putin away
Put Putin away, put Putin away.

Lord in this context would seem to mean the Patriarch and not Christ. In any case, given the state of Russia I empathise wholly with the song's content.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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leo
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# 1458

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These women are extremely well—educated. At the end of their trial, they quoted Nicholas Berdyaev, Matthew’s Gospel (7:8) as the theological rationale for their protest.
As their speeches were quite long, I have picked out a few sentences to convey their flavour:

quote:
(Putin) felt the need for more persuasive, transcendent guarantees of his long tenure at the pinnacle of power. It was then that it became necessary to make use of the aesthetic of the Orthodox religion, which is historically associated with the heyday of Imperial Russia, where power came not from earthly manifestations such as democratic elections and civil society, but from God Himself….
How did Putin succeed in this? After all, we still have a secular state, and any intersection of the religious and political spheres should be dealt with severely by our vigilant and critically minded society. ……. in Soviet times, when the Orthodox religion had an aura of lost history, of something that had been crushed and damaged by the Soviet totalitarian regime, and was thus an opposition culture. The authorities decided to appropriate this historical effect of loss and present a new political project to restore Russia’s lost spiritual values, a project that has little to do with a genuine concern for the preservation of Russian Orthodoxy’s history and culture…..
“We are . . . stoning you . . . for blasphemy.” [John 10:33] Interestingly enough, it is precisely this verse that the Russian Orthodox Church uses to express its opinion about blasphemy. This view is certified on paper, it’s attached to our criminal file. The Russian Orthodox Church refers to the Gospels as static religious truth. The Gospels are no longer understood as revelation, which they have been from the very beginning, but rather as a monolithic chunk that can be disassembled into quotations to be shoved in wherever necessary—in any of its documents, for any of their purposes. The Russian Orthodox Church did not even bother to look up the context in which “blasphemy” is mentioned here—that in this case, the word applies to Jesus Christ himself.

See here for the whole thing.

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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Mark Betts

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# 17074

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
These women are extremely well—educated...

So are you saying it wasn't a naive immature prank that was taken too far then?

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Josephine

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
If you want to understand how the Orthodox think, if you are, as you said, "more interested in understanding the Orthodox than telling them what they ought to do" you could try asking us. There are a number of us here. Some of us have even posted on this thread.

Your statements misrepresent our faith and our Tradition. To be quite frank, I found them vile and insulting.


I don't think this is entirely fair, Josephine. All of us Orthodox go wrong sometimes and say things which misrepresent our tradition.


Of course we do. But when we misunderstand or misrepresent our own faith, that's one thing. Berwickshire has misunderstood and is misrepresenting a faith that is not his.

quote:
I wouldn't go as far as Berwickshire, especially in his reference to the death penalty (which has never even been mentioned before), but there are some within Orthodoxy who think this way.

Yep. The Church is full of sinners. We can be as wrong-headed and stupid as any other group of human beings on the planet. And we're more to blame when we are, because we have been justified. We have been illumined. We have been washed. We have received anointment with the holy Chrism. We have been sanctified.

We are without excuse when we sin. But still we sin. God, have mercy.

quote:
He has, however, touched on the eastern/western differences on how we view holy places, which is an important part of the discussions, without which we cannot hope to understand what's gone on.

As far as I can tell, the women were in the nave, not the sanctuary. They were wrong to stage a political protest in the nave -- they should have done it in the narthex, or on the steps of the church.

But surely you are familiar with the Holy Fools who are so well known in Russia, who are a living part of Holy Tradition as it is lived out in Russia. It seems to me that these women were acting within that Tradition.

quote:
quote:
I would appreciate it very much if you'd quit speaking for us. We are quite capable of speaking for ourselves.
As said, neither do the few Orthodox on this board entirely represent Orthodoxy perfectly - so let him say what he likes, and if you disagree then fair enough - but just tell us, without trying to censor equally valid viewpoints.
I well know that I do not -- and cannot -- "entirely represent Orthodoxy perfectly." I am quite sure that I do not entirely represent myself perfectly. But I do not try to represent the opinions of others. To do so, and to get it wrong, is to bear false witness. I do not wish to do that to others, and I do not wish others to do that to me.

It is not "censor[ing] equally valid viewpoints" to ask someone who is speaking falsely about you to knock it off. Errors, whether voluntary or involuntary, are not "equally valid viewpoints."

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
...But surely you are familiar with the Holy Fools who are so well known in Russia, who are a living part of Holy Tradition as it is lived out in Russia. It seems to me that these women were acting within that Tradition.

I disagree - all the Holy Fools I know about (both eastern and western) had something which the girls lack - humility ...and that's important.

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
These women are extremely well—educated...

So are you saying it wasn't a naive immature prank that was taken too far then?
No. A valid protest taking the form of a prayer. I know little about Russian Orthodox music but i gather than their performance was completely within a liturgical tradition as far as the chanting and the words are concerned.

I frequently watch Russia Today television channel and saw a spirited defence of the women by an Orthodox priest this morning.

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
...But surely you are familiar with the Holy Fools who are so well known in Russia, who are a living part of Holy Tradition as it is lived out in Russia. It seems to me that these women were acting within that Tradition.

I disagree - all the Holy Fools I know about (both eastern and western) had something which the girls lack - humility ...and that's important.
Yes, humility is important. But the humility of the Holy Fools was often more apparent after their deaths than while they were living and aggravating the people around them.

Wiki gives a brief explanation:
quote:
The yurodivy (Russian: юродивый, yurodivy) is the Russian version of Foolishness in Christ (Russian: юродство, yurodstvo or jurodstvo), a peculiar form of Eastern Orthodox asceticism. The yurodivy is a Holy Fool, one who acts intentionally foolish in the eyes of men. The term implies behaviour "which is caused neither by mistake nor by feeble-mindedness, but is deliberate, irritating, even provocative."

In his book "Holy Fools in Byzantium and Beyond,” Ivanov described ‘holy fool’ as a term for a person who “feigns insanity, pretends to be silly, or who provokes shock or outrage by his deliberate unruliness.” ... Some characteristics that were commonly seen in holy fools were going around half-naked, being homeless, speaking in riddles, being believed to be clairvoyant and a prophet, and occasionally being disruptive and challenging to the point of seeming immoral (though always to make a point).

I'm not saying that the women in Pussy Riot are holy fools. I couldn't possibly know that one way or another. But their protest could well be understood as being part of that tradition.

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
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I've just now seen these statements from the girls in Pussy Riot. They are Orthodox Christians, and they were deliberately invoking the tradition of the Holy Fools.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
So the fact that you can watch this video, filmed inside Moscow's cathedral, and read the lyrics, is why the young ladies got two years instead of a slap on the wrists.

No. They got two years in prison because they annoyed the men with power and the tools of civil authority to wield that power influentially.

But I get the message nonetheless. You think that a protest - and no doubt to many an offensive protest - in a religious building merits two years loss of liberty, if not more. You think Kirill 'lacks wisdom on occasion' but not deserving of the criticism he receives. And you think Putin genuinelly desires leniency for those who insult him.

It's unlikely any argument here is likely to broaden those views.

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Comper's Child
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Pussy Riot were prosecuted by the State, right? Not the Orthodox Church?

Correct.
"We have a law, and by that law He ought to die"
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Berwickshire
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As regards your question, lilBuddah, it is neither here nor there what I think: I am not a Russian citizen not an Orthodox believer. I talk to both and would guess people elsewhere would see that while political protests in public space are one thing, desecrating sacred space is in another class entirely, even by western standards. The building itself is, of course, a significant war memorial. Where believers happen to have a stronger sense of the sacrosanct, the offence is aggravated. Same applies to the screeching parody of a well-known chant in honour of the Mother of God or the snide take-off of the behaviour of the more devout of Orthodox worshippers. Taking the opportunity to heap abuse on a major religious leader will strike the Russian as sadly reminiscent of Socialist-era propaganda. So no, there was no merit in this stunt: their normal performances in public places are enough to put their point across. With their cathedral “prayer” the charge of hooliganism was well-founded and there clearly was a conspiracy. The words and actions make it clear that religious hatred was a further aggravating feature. With seven years the top of the sentencing tariff for the aggravated conspiracy offence, they got off lightly.
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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
So the fact that you can watch this video, filmed inside Moscow's cathedral, and read the lyrics, is why the young ladies got two years instead of a slap on the wrists.

I am wondering why you defend the Russian orthodox Church.

They suffered much under persecution. But that is no excuse for them to turn into persecutor.

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
For the Orthodox, the presence of women will profane the most sacred spaces and, while they kept clear (or were locked out) of this pollution,

Much as i admire the orthodoxen, I can't help thinking that the very notion of women 'polluting' a sacred space by their mere femininity is subChristian if not antiChristian.

Can someone please explain how women pollute places? Without referring to Old testament purity laws which were supposedly superceded by Christ?

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lilBuddha
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Berwickshire,

I am not "heaping abuse" on Kirill. I am merely expecting him to act as the Patriarch and not Putin's puppet. I am expecting him to act as a representative of the Christ, as his position purports him to be.

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Berwickshire
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On the point raise by Timothy the Obscure, there is no issue that a “Punk Prayer Service” would have been unobjectionable had the hooligans been male. It is simply that, in invading sacred space, women are capable of giving offence to believers in a way that men are not. As it happens the criminal gang were stopped in time and the sacristan, Archpriest Mikhail Ryazantsev, noted that “thank God” they did not defile the altar so the church did not have to be reconciled. But it remains that the degree of religious offence given to believers (and the cost of reparation) was potentially greater for women than for men. Medieval western canons took much the same line but while we have moved on (or away) that is no reason to disrespect Russian rules.

Western media are thin on reporting the actual details. The criminals, now convicted of this conspiracy, had had a practice-run a few days earlier to gather footage for their commercial recording (the popular clip recommended above is a compilation of several days’ work in the studio and on location) and knew they had little time to mouth the lyrics. The indecent dancing, parody prostrations and crossings were their best hope of giving the maximum of offence to believers with the minimum of resources. Presenting themselves backside-on to the altar was the best they could manage in the 20 seconds or so before making good their escape. Their actions were such that the charge specified religious hatred: that reaction shot of the outraged old ladies in mohair bonnets was not a smart move, providing clear evidence of the aggravated offence. Passing this off as a valid protest against State President Putin or against the Orthodox leadership simply will not wash. The pre-trial statements issued by lawyers are clear evidence that these blessed martyrs were quite prepared to lie their way out of things.

Western supporters of this hate crime are curiously silent as to the anti-Semitic barb, which Russians catch, incorporated in the commercial recording, although not uttered (so far as I could hear) in the band’s actual performance. And then we have a pious pose against “moral relativism”, whatever that might be. People used to come up with these dreadful metaphysical offences against Marxist-Leninism so western liberals are in good company with their self-righteous ideology.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
So the fact that you can watch this video, filmed inside Moscow's cathedral, and read the lyrics, is why the young ladies got two years instead of a slap on the wrists.

I'd be fascinated to learn what sentence you think is appropriate for publishing literature encouraging racist violence. Or for actually committing common assault.

Presumably either of those quite serious offences would be worth around 10 years each?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Just thought I'd get clarification on that - thread seems to be blurring the line a tad

That would be because Kirill and Putin are blurring the line more than a tad.

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I do not know if the reporting is accurate, but the paper edition of today's Globe & Mail tells us that the Orthodox Church has urged leniency and would not object to a pardon. I think that it would have been a helpful gesture if they had done so before sentencing, although I am not sure if Russian legal procedure has a sentencing stage.

How late they discover their charity, after calling for blood right up to the sentencing. Kinda like Moll Flanders repenting all her sexual sins after her libido shuts down and it's moot.

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
For the Orthodox, the presence of women will profane the most sacred spaces and, while they kept clear (or were locked out) of this pollution,

Much as i admire the orthodoxen, I can't help thinking that the very notion of women 'polluting' a sacred space by their mere femininity is subChristian if not antiChristian.

Can someone please explain how women pollute places? Without referring to Old testament purity laws which were supposedly superceded by Christ?

This is a lie and a damned lie. Some Orthodoxen alas may believe this but it is not the teaching of the Church.

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lilBuddha
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Excuse me Mark Betts and Berwickshire,

What did Pussy Riot actually do? Did they damage any structure? Did they harm any person? Did urinate or defecate in the church? No. The church was exactly identical after their presence as before. Some people were offended, yes. Being offended is worth 2 years in a Russian prison?
Some claim desecration. What does this say about the Orthodox church when the presence of women mouthing political protest is stronger than faith or god?

[ 18. August 2012, 20:37: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
For the Orthodox, the presence of women will profane the most sacred spaces and, while they kept clear (or were locked out) of this pollution,

Much as i admire the orthodoxen, I can't help thinking that the very notion of women 'polluting' a sacred space by their mere femininity is subChristian if not antiChristian.

Can someone please explain how women pollute places? Without referring to Old testament purity laws which were supposedly superceded by Christ?

This is a lie and a damned lie. Some Orthodoxen alas may believe this but it is not the teaching of the Church.
Please clarify - this is really important and I want to know, please. (Because I love Orthodox Christianity and I am finding this issue difficult.)

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
This is a lie and a damned lie. Some Orthodoxen alas may believe this but it is not the teaching of the Church.
Please clarify - this is really important and I want to know, please. (Because I love Orthodox Christianity and I am finding this issue difficult.) [/qb]
Do you see, Mark Butts, why Josephine called Berwickshire to task for misrepresenting our faith?

@ leo, Josephine and Mousethief have made clear that what Berwickshire said about this matter is simply not true. Some Orthodox may believe that women pollute a place by their presence, just as some Anglicans might or some atheists might. Misogyny doesn't need a particular religion or any religion at all to exist, although people do sometimes hide their misogyny behind a veneer of faith.

If there are Orthodox Christians who think in this way, then their views are in opposition to those of the Orthodox Church.

[ 18. August 2012, 21:12: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Do you see, Mark Butts...
Mark, please forgive me. This was entirely unintentional. I am posting from my phone and it auto-"corrected" your name. I had already edited the post once before I realised, by which point it was too late to edit again.

I meant no disrespect.

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mousethief

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(I see I have x-posted with Mr. Scrump. (Can we still use your first name?) He has said succinctly what I take a lot of words to say. But I worked at it a long time so I am going let it stand. [Cool] )

It is true there is a mean streak in some Orthodoxen, particularly of the old world or of the sort of converts from fundamentalist Protestantism that bring the uglier bits of their fundamentalist baggage with them, that is misogynist, sometimes also antisemitic and subject to other prejudices.

It is also true that women are not allowed to be priests or (nowadays) deacons*, or altar servers. It is true this is a stumbling block for many, and I understand why people feel that way. I myself am not entirely comfortable with it, but I submit myself to the teachings of my Church. (There are other goads I kick against, to be sure, although to what avail I do not know.)

Thus women do not serve in the altar*. Because of this it is generally not "the done thing" that a woman enter the altar. Although there are certainly exceptions to this as need demands. The abbess of a monastery will go into the altar to do things, even if a priest is present (I have seen this myself). In other cases a woman will usually get a man to go into the altar if she has cause, but if no main is available, she will go in herself, without worry she is polluting the place.

And indeed what I object to so vehemently is the idea that the presence of a woman can defile or pollute a place. If this were the case then the place would have to be ritually cleansed if a woman had entered it, and that is not at all the practice of the church.

There are some men who feel women are pollutants (as mentioned above). They do not have the mind of the church.

__________________________
*There was a female diaconate in olden times and there is a small but vocal movement in the church today calling for its reinstatement.

*The altar is the term we give to the area behind the iconostasis. The table that in the west is called the altar, we call the altar table. Not that people aren't sloppy about their use (self included); you keep it straight by the preposition: IN or ON the altar, respectively.

[ 18. August 2012, 21:20: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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