 |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: Patriarch Kirill, Pussy Riot, and feminism as un-Orthodox
|
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't doubt that the You Tube piece was edited, nor do I think that the motives of the protestors were entirely as pure as the driven snow - far from it. Nor do I think that the Western media has represented the whole picture.
But I am getting rather tired of this 'You lot don't really understand as much as I do ...' schtick.
I'm rather tired - and surprised - at Berwickshire deciding that because some people in Russia think political and religious protesters should be strung up, so he is obliged to believe it, too, and defend that view. I think he is utilising the very same argument (if it can be called that) which I'm sure he would use to accuse liberals, of defending his own views because they happen to fit in with the cultural millieu of where this incident has taken place.
--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
... The prosecution produced nine victims of the offence, perhaps the worst a security guard who had been off work for two months ...
Wow. Off work for two months? Why? Outraged sensibilities?
[ 19. August 2012, 20:25: Message edited by: Soror Magna ]
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I am not asking Kirill to like or approve of what they did in the church. His job is not to prevent anything. His is to promote. Right now he is promoting Putin's message, not that of Jesus.
What he said.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
Vermin to vermin.
You should reflect a bit on this. The women concerned have not physically harmed anyone, have not damaged any property, have caused no substantive loss to anyone, but seem to have outraged you enough by what they did for you to describe them as vermin.
Can you really be comfortable with yourself as someone who describes other human beings like this?
[ 19. August 2012, 21:08: Message edited by: mdijon ]
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
On Sunday, we shall pray, as we always do, for "our great lord and father Kyrill, the most holy patriarch of Moscow and all the Russias". Perhaps we should revert to praying for "the Orthodox episcopate of the Church of Russia" as we did before the union. It would allow us at least to still offer those prayers without saying anything that I, if a deacon or priest, simply could not say. May God forgive me.
I treat the adjectives attached to the names of bishops as titles, not descriptors. I do the same with adjectives attached to the names of elected officials. I could therefore say "The honorable gentleman from Wisconsin" (or "the most holy patriarch of Moscow"), regardless of what I believed about the honor or holiness of the gentlemen in question.
Perhaps that's a kind of mind game that is not entirely honest. But it works for me.
Thank you for this, Josephine.
As it happens, my parish hasn't used the polychronion (the only place where the congregation might be expected to sing the "offending" words) for very long. I don't know why it was customarily omitted but it had been that way since I joined the parish. I introduced it with the new choir music book that I finally completed a few weeks ago. What that means is that the choir isn't yet accustomed to it. This morning, they forgot. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Thank you, as well, mdijon, for your sentiment in response to mine. It was appreciated.
--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
(I see I have x-posted with Mr. Scrump. (Can we still use your first name?
Of course! although I quite like that Mr Scrump thing you've got going on.
--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
We seem to be getting round to a view that the customs of the Russian church are indeed much against the presence of women in the altar.
THEY WEREN'T IN THE ALTAR. Can we drop this completely reddest of herrings? They. Were. Not. In. The. Altar. Which of those words isn't working for you? I could probably find a synonym.
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
Russia’s values ay endure, ever faithful , ever sure.
Ever bullshit. "Russia's values" include murderous anti-semitism. Some of Russia's values need to change.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
Vermin to vermin.
You should reflect a bit on this. The women concerned have not physically harmed anyone, have not damaged any property, have caused no substantive loss to anyone, but seem to have outraged you enough by what they did for you to describe them as vermin.
Can you really be comfortable with yourself as someone who describes other human beings like this?
Hate the sin; hate, revile, detest, loathe, excoriate, abuse, and dehumanize the sinner. It's a Russian value, apparently
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I tend to think, given the way they performed + other antics by members of the group (such as a live orgy in a museum and sex with a chicken in a supermarket) that this is what we mean when we point out they are "Orthodox".
Ummm.... where did you get the information about the museum and the supermarket? I've seen that said, of course -- but it appears that the people who did those things were members of a different group, one called Voyna (War), not Pussy Riot. One member of Pussy Riot was formerly a member of Voyna, but is not any longer.
So are you just looking for garbage and slime to throw at these young women, to justify your outrage? Have a care, because you may find yourself bearing false witness against your neighbors (for these women are your neighbors). If you confess yourself the chief of sinners, you should understand why your offense may well be greater than theirs.
quote:
Why is it not Patriarch Kirill's duty to ensure things like this cannot happen in the churches of the faithful?
The way it was handled at the time was perfectly appropriate. Their protest was interrupted, after less than a minute, they were asked to leave, and they left. That is exactly what should have happened, and if Patriarch Kirill was responsible for that, then he fulfilled his duty admirably.
I don't see how it could be considered the Patriarch's duty to ensure that the state prosecute the people involved in the protest, though. Could you explain?
--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I don't think I trust your words, Berwickshire.
For the record, I have decided not to read Berwickshire's words. If we were at a pub with some friends, and Berwickshire joined the table, I would get up and leave.
It is never acceptable to refer to human beings as vermin. Never.
--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
Russia’s values ay endure, ever faithful , ever sure.
The most dangerous thing in the world, some person, nation, or religion that is ever sure.
--------------------
spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
Russia’s values ay endure, ever faithful , ever sure.
So, Berwickshire--I say Putin is a psychopathic totalitarian thug, the utterly amoral overlord of a corrupt kleptocracy. Your response?
--------------------
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
Russia’s values ay endure, ever faithful , ever sure.
The most dangerous thing in the world, some person, nation, or religion that is ever sure.
..or ideology such as communism or humanism.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
If you're a shy and tentative communist or humanist that's surely not all that dangerous. It is the "ever sure" that are likely to string you up.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I tend to think, given the way they performed + other antics by members of the group (such as a live orgy in a museum and sex with a chicken in a supermarket) that this is what we mean when we point out they are "Orthodox".
Ummm.... where did you get the information about the museum and the supermarket? I've seen that said, of course -- but it appears that the people who did those things were members of a different group, one called Voyna (War), not Pussy Riot. One member of Pussy Riot was formerly a member of Voyna, but is not any longer.
One of the members of pussy riot was in that orgy - heavily pregnant at the time - source: RT.com
quote:
So are you just looking for garbage and slime to throw at these young women, to justify your outrage? Have a care, because you may find yourself bearing false witness against your neighbors (for these women are your neighbors). If you confess yourself the chief of sinners, you should understand why your offense may well be greater than theirs.
I'm not condemning them for their past misdemeanors, simply pointing out that they can't be likened to the "Holy Fools" which you seem to insist.
quote:
quote:
Why is it not Patriarch Kirill's duty to ensure things like this cannot happen in the churches of the faithful?
The way it was handled at the time was perfectly appropriate. Their protest was interrupted, after less than a minute, they were asked to leave, and they left. That is exactly what should have happened, and if Patriarch Kirill was responsible for that, then he fulfilled his duty admirably.
You make it sound like it was a peaceful protest - the women didn't leave quietly when asked, they had to be restrained and pushed out, as is clear in the news videos. They forced their way into the place just in front of the iconostasis - no-one invited them there. And as you know, the real intention was to film footage for a video which they put together to send all over the world
quote:
I don't see how it could be considered the Patriarch's duty to ensure that the state prosecute the people involved in the protest, though. Could you explain?
We have to accept that it might just be possible that the court reached it's own conclusion without having to be prompted by Putin, nor the Patriarch. Is that completely beyond the realms of possibility?
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
You make it sound like it was a peaceful protest - the women didn't leave quietly when asked, they had to be restrained and pushed out, as is clear in the news videos. They forced their way into the place just in front of the iconostasis - no-one invited them there. And as you know, the real intention was to film footage for a video which they put together to send all over the world
That would meet most definitions of peaceful protest. 'Peaceful' refers to non-violence on the part of the protesters, rather than the absence of any commotion or noise. "Needing" to be restrained or pushed doesn't mean that the protesters can be considered 'violent'.
Whatever criticisms you level against the women, I still think it is worth considering the sentence in the grand scheme. Compare the sentence with the usual terms served for common assault, for instance. Or the terms served for spreading violent racist propaganda.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
You make it sound like it was a peaceful protest - the women didn't leave quietly when asked, they had to be restrained and pushed out, as is clear in the news videos. They forced their way into the place just in front of the iconostasis - no-one invited them there. And as you know, the real intention was to film footage for a video which they put together to send all over the world
That would meet most definitions of peaceful protest. 'Peaceful' refers to non-violence on the part of the protesters, rather than the absence of any commotion or noise. "Needing" to be restrained or pushed doesn't mean that the protesters can be considered 'violent'.
Whatever criticisms you level against the women, I still think it is worth considering the sentence in the grand scheme. Compare the sentence with the usual terms served for common assault, for instance. Or the terms served for spreading violent racist propaganda.
I understand what you are saying, but my point is that it didn't end there. The purpose was to spread propoganda all over the world to discredit Russia and the ROC, which entailed forcing their way into the Cathedral and taking over it for a short while. It is this that upset the Russian people, and the court decided that it didn't want to send out a message which said that it is OK for anyone to do this, lest others try to do the same.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
|
Posted
Any other bad motives you feel like ascribing to them? Desire to kill small puppies maybe?
--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Berwickshire
Shipmate
# 15761
|
Posted
There has been rather too much discussion of puppies and bitches on this topic for that line to be worth pursuing. To anyone who actually followed the trial, the hooligans from Pussy Riot are hardly blessed martyrs for Christian feminism. Their malicious intent was always manifest and is now a proven fact, as is the deliberate conspiracy. As people have been trying to make clear, when their performance in the Cathedral of the Epiphany in Yelokhovo was disrupted and failed to generate the required footage, even with studio work, they moved on two days later to shoot in a new location. Their subsequent martyrdom is something they brought on their own heads for the purposes of commercial gain, a more perfect clip. As it happens they were not smart enough to calculate the reaction but if a religious hate crime was required to achieve their ends, clearly the feelings of lower-class believers and workers were not considered important. If, in a bizarre twist to their own anti-semitic jibe, they too are on their way to verminous cells there is a certain poetic justice for bourgeois feminism in that.
The marvel of it is that western apologists are quite so easily duped. Russia has a clear modern Penal Code, evidence was led in open court and the parties were legally represented. The judge did a pretty fair job despite intimidation by the criminals’ supporters and sentencing was mild, given the studied insolence of clearly unrepentant defendants, deaf to the comments of the simple souls who had actually been offended. Mr Putin has a rather more convincing popular electoral mandate than does Mr Cameron (the UK Prime Minister) but any excuse is good enough for those who would condone hooliganism to heap abuse on him – and that despite his own view that the girls were a proper case for leniency. Ill-informed criticism comes as no surprise to most Russians. Hate crimes are, however, no way either to advance the sacred cause of feminism or to challenge a clear democratic mandate. These criminals might not be wholly fools but they have misjudged this one.
Posts: 57 | From: Eastern Europe | Registered: Jul 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The purpose was to spread propoganda all over the world to discredit Russia and the ROC
If the court and government's primary purpose was to protect the reputation of Russia and the ROC in the world then they've been a bit self defeating with the sentence, since it seems to have had the opposite effect. Far more powerfully than an odd bit of youtube footage in isolation might have had.
I think the allegation that this was Pussy Riot's purpose was not proven in court, and I haven't really seen any evidence advanced for it.
I note that you haven't actually suggested any proportionate sentences for common assault or for spreading racist propaganda inciting to violence.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
Same stuff again
Could you think about engaging in the conversation?
For instance, you've been asked to justify describing human beings as vermin.
Often posters will quote other posters before launching into their favoured bit of text, to create the impression of engagement.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
|
Posted
Shoot the rabid dogs!
[ 20. August 2012, 08:27: Message edited by: Demas ]
--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I think you're polarising things rather too much, Mr Berwickshire - and veering onto thin ice in the process.
Call me a woolly liberal, and I'd proudly accept the label, but it strikes me that you are going to the opposite extreme in aspects of your assessment to some equally naive Western liberals who don't 'get' all the nuances that you do with you oh-so-superior-first-hand-knowledge-and-insight.
It seems to me that some people are bending over backwards to defend aspects of the indefensible - such as the public orgy and so on - whereas others (such as yourself) are writing off any 'protest' element in order to portray the event as a cynical commercial ploy to plug a punk album.
I'd suggest it was probably a case of both/and rather than either/or - but that tends to be the way I approach most things.
We all know that the West has seized on this as an opportunity to beat Putin over the head. The same would happen in reverse if some kind of dissident stunt in the US or UK gained similar world-wide publicity.
Talk of 'vermin' and diatribes against 'bourgeois feminism' and so on don't help the debate in any way whatsover. All they do is make you sound arrogant and stupid.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Berwickshire
Shipmate
# 15761
|
Posted
I am tempted to say something along the lines of ever faithful ever sure but that will just attract humourless ire.
Posts: 57 | From: Eastern Europe | Registered: Jul 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The purpose was to spread propoganda all over the world to discredit Russia and the ROC, which entailed forcing their way into the Cathedral and taking over it for a short while.
As has been pointed out a number of times, the only reason this propaganda spread all over the world is because the Russian legal system took to them with a sledgehammer.
Ascribing this purpose to Pussy Riot is frankly to look back with hindsight. Their purpose was to protest, yes. To make the news in Russia? Also arguably yes.
To create worldwide condemnation of their subsequent treatment? Not so much.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The purpose was to spread propoganda all over the world to discredit Russia and the ROC, which entailed forcing their way into the Cathedral and taking over it for a short while. It is this that upset the Russian people, and the court decided that it didn't want to send out a message which said that it is OK for anyone to do this, lest others try to do the same.
And do you think that it's the business of a court, of the criminal law, to protect the reputation of the Church and the State?
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The purpose was to spread propoganda all over the world to discredit Russia and the ROC, which entailed forcing their way into the Cathedral and taking over it for a short while. It is this that upset the Russian people, and the court decided that it didn't want to send out a message which said that it is OK for anyone to do this, lest others try to do the same.
And do you think that it's the business of a court, of the criminal law, to protect the reputation of the Church and the State?
Very good point. In more repressive states, it is the job of the judiciary to protect state and church, and indeed, the reputation of politicians. The separation of powers in these areas (or rather, the lack of it), is one good indication of how repressive a state is.
I was trying to imagine a punk band doing this in St Paul's. I guess people would laugh, and they would be led out. Prison? Unlikely, as the political storm which would ensue would make all politicians fearful for their futures.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Shoot the rabid dogs!
Presumably this gentleman represents Berwickshire's Russian values which are 'ever faithful, ever sure' and therefore without examination or criticism should 'ay endure'.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Incidentally, I did take your reference to my 'sig' as a joke, Berwickshire.
I understood the mordant humour of it. Doesn't stop you coming across as sounding rather arrogant and know-it-all. You're not alone in that, I'm sure I can sound that way at times and it pisses people off - and rightly so.
What's sauce for the goose is source for the gander.
If it was just the mordant humour and slightly superior tone of your posts then I doubt whether many of us would be that offended or bothered. Apparently referring to people as 'vermin' is going a bit far, though, wouldn't you agree?
Or are you so far up your own arse that you can't see the light shining?
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Yes, shoot the rabid dogs is a poignant and tragic reference. I don't know how fair it is to compare such a period in history with today.
Still, give Vyshinksy his due, he had a lyrical turn of phrase:
"Down with these abject animals! Let's put an end once and for all to these miserable hybrids of foxes and pigs, these stinking corpses! Let's exterminate the mad dogs of capitalism, who want to tear to pieces the flower of our new Soviet nation! Let's push the bestial hatred they bear our leaders back down their own throats!"
Of course, he had been a Menshevik, explains it all really. Some of them sucked up to Stalin big time.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
but that will just attract humourless ire.
My apologies, I didn't realise you were just joking earlier. Sorry for taking it seriously.
You had us going though, we really thought you believed that crap.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
|
Posted
Charlie Gilmour recently received a 16 month sentence in prison for swinging on the Cenotaph in London during the Tuition Fees protest. I suspect many members of the British Public would have been delighted if he had got 10 years. This was considered a desecration of a monument of a quasi-sacred status.
I for one think the level of tuition fees is wrong and I have a low opinion of Vladimir Putin but if you go about outraging public sensibilities either for publicity or because you are drugged up as in Gilmour's case then you run the risk of a custodial sentence in most countries.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Charlie Gilmour recently received a 16 month sentence in prison for swinging on the Cenotaph in London during the Tuition Fees protest. I suspect many members of the British Public would have been delighted if he had got 10 years. This was considered a desecration of a monument of a quasi-sacred status.
I for one think the level of tuition fees is wrong and I have a low opinion of Vladimir Putin but if you go about outraging public sensibilities either for publicity or because you are drugged up as in Gilmour's case then you run the risk of a custodial sentence in most countries.
Thankyou Aumbry. Double standards anyone?
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
But Gilmour also hurled a dustbin lid at Charlie's car, and smashed a window in Topshop, and set fire to stuff outside the Law courts.
I also think his sentence was too harsh, in fact, quite ludicrous.
Not double standards at all.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But Gilmour also hurled a dustbin lid at Charlie's car, and smashed a window in Topshop, and set fire to stuff outside the Law courts.
I also think his sentence was too harsh, in fact, quite ludicrous.
Not double standards at all.
He would have been just another demonstrator if he had not been swinging on the flag no matter how violent the disorder. It was the attack on the Cenotaph and the associated public outrage what swung it!
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Not double standards at all.
I think it is.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
You must have neglected to read the link to the judgement I posted. Let me help;
quote:
...who had pleaded guilty to violent disorder... ... There was serious mob disorder. In Oxford Street there were mass attacks on shops. Shoppers and staff were besieged inside. Heavy plate glass windows were kicked in and goods were looted...
....The defendant admitted violent disorder. He was unmistakeably captured on CCTV footage in Oxford Street joining in the attack on the windows of a shop. He was part of a violent crowd laying siege to the shop, in which both staff and shoppers were trapped. He twice ran up and launched heavy kicks at the window, as did others
before him and, no doubt, after him. The combined effect of the attack was that the windows were at some stage broken...
...he then sat ostentatiously on the bonnet of one of the escort cars, because that too was plainly shown on camera. ...the cars were pelted with objects which included three large bins. It seems to have been at this stage that the windows of the cars were smashed, although by precisely which object(s) is not clear... the defendant threw one of the bins.
I'm prepared to accept that the sentence was harsh, and that the public outrage was partly to blame (although this is arguable). I don't see much parallel with pussy riot though.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
It would be double standards if someone was arguing that the Gilmour case and the Pussy Riot case are comparable. Is anyone arguing that? FFS, the Gilmour stuff took place in the middle of a riot.
And also arguing that the Gilmour sentence was correct, and PR sentence excessive.
I think they are both ridiculously excessive.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
You must have neglected to read the link to the judgement I posted. Let me help;
quote:
...who had pleaded guilty to violent disorder... ... There was serious mob disorder. In Oxford Street there were mass attacks on shops. Shoppers and staff were besieged inside. Heavy plate glass windows were kicked in and goods were looted...
....The defendant admitted violent disorder. He was unmistakeably captured on CCTV footage in Oxford Street joining in the attack on the windows of a shop. He was part of a violent crowd laying siege to the shop, in which both staff and shoppers were trapped. He twice ran up and launched heavy kicks at the window, as did others
before him and, no doubt, after him. The combined effect of the attack was that the windows were at some stage broken...
...he then sat ostentatiously on the bonnet of one of the escort cars, because that too was plainly shown on camera. ...the cars were pelted with objects which included three large bins. It seems to have been at this stage that the windows of the cars were smashed, although by precisely which object(s) is not clear... the defendant threw one of the bins.
I'm prepared to accept that the sentence was harsh, and that the public outrage was partly to blame (although this is arguable). I don't see much parallel with pussy riot though.
I think you did not get the point I was making: the fact that there were other acts was a suitable pretext for the Court to convict and sentence him harshly but the punishment was really for the outraging of the Cenotaph.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
That may be so, although difficult to prove. Certainly if one's case is coming up having offended public sensibility is a bad position to be in.
Morally, however, it seems a rather lesser outrage that one took part in violent disorder and vandalism but was convicted because of the public sensibility regarding other matters vs a situation where no violence or vandalism was alleged or proven, but a similar custodial sentence was passed.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
|
Posted
It surely depends on what inflames the public in a country - see the recent German case where a pensioner was given a 5 month sentence for training his dog to give a Heil Hitler salute, something which in Britain would be seen as a joke (it was after all a German Shepherd Dog).
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
I'm losing the thread of relevance. What is the "it" in your post that is depended on... and does "it" map on to something in my post or the rest of the thread?
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
|
Posted
I can't believe that some are jumping from distaste at the ruling which is quite right to defending the antics of these attention-seeking, silly people
These are not modern day Susan B Anthonys or Anna Akmatovas , for that matter. Let's not confuse horror at the state verdict with defending all the silliness of this group
--------------------
"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
One of the members of pussy riot was in that orgy - heavily pregnant at the time - source: RT.com
Thank you for the source. I'm not familiar with RT.com, so I'm not sure how seriously to take their allegations. My source was a Russian Orthodox person, who (of course) may know more or less than RT.com's sources. But I'll look at RT.com.
quote:
quote:
So are you just looking for garbage and slime to throw at these young women
I'm not condemning them for their past misdemeanors, simply pointing out that they can't be likened to the "Holy Fools" which you seem to insist.
They are Russian Orthodox Christians who are familiar with the tradition of holy fools and who cited it in explaining their actions. They did not claim to be holy fools, nor did I say that they were in fact holy fools. But since they cited the holy fools in their defense, I think it's important to look at and understand that part of Russian Orthodox tradition to understand what Pussy Riot did, and why.
quote:
You make it sound like it was a peaceful protest -
It was a peaceful protest. It was not a genteel and ladylike protest. But protests rarely are.
--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
We have to accept that it might just be possible that the court reached it's own conclusion without having to be prompted by Putin, nor the Patriarch. Is that completely beyond the realms of possibility?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) Is Russia, no?
RT. com, aka Russia Today, is government owned.
BTW, Pussy Riot did not offend the Russian People, they offended some Russian people.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
RT. com, aka Russia Today, is government owned.
Thank you, lilBuddha! I looked for the "who we are" link, and didn't see it, and didn't have time for further research. You saved me a bunch of time.
Mark, just for future reference, RT.com cannot be considered a disinterested source in this conversation. Sorry.
--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
Pravda, under the Soviets, also had an interesting slant.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I think...
Jury's out.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement
© Ship of Fools 2016
UBB.classicTM
6.5.0
|
|
|
|
|
| |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
