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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: When did World War II become a just war?
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
OK MLK might be setting the bar a bit high. But I don't think the harshness of making the pips squeak questions the idea that there was clearly a "right side" in WW2.
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
The more one contributed to the harshness of Versailles, the lesser the legitimate claim to rightness in the next 27 years, istm.
I see that argument. My problem knowing what to do on the basis of it when faced with a terrible evil that ought to be opposed.
Economic harshness isn't in itself a sufficient justification for gassing Jews and torturing gypsies. And in any case, recognising one's culpability in creating the economic conditions that led to the situation doesn't to my mind help in the decision of whether to go to war against an aggressive and evil expanding empire.
Regarding your comments on the Irish, affability isn't always a great guide to a moral compass on an individual basis, and societies are usually more pluralistic mixes of individuals than ones surface impression might indicate.
I think the Irish are probably like the rest of us - a mixed bag of people prone to doing terrible things when egged on by opinion leaders and/or authority.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
mdijon - aye, what to do. You speak as a far kinder, more considered, vexed, version of me before my once-size fits all flip.
Pre-flip I was a full-on liberal interventionist. Britain's role in WW2 and nearly all of its conflicts since, in fact all ... and before, was OK by me. So before I'd been a liberal interventionist I was an out and out imperialist.
Sigh.
So my bipolar swing looks inauthentic (how ironic that is a true bipolar context, believe me!).
Jesus lived in a world where the Nazis had won, had been in ascendancy for two hundred years. Their genocides were past. Although their worst was yet to come: the Jewish War. As He prophesied. His way subverted them even though it suffered subversion itself from the second century. A lesson for us all. A subversion we're still suffering.
You open up enough daylight again for me to say that we must TRY and be pacifist when it comes to warfare. Collateral damage is NOT acceptable. Escalation is not acceptable.
We MUST find a way to love our enemies. To reconcile with them.
If Christians can't and WON'T - that's me included, in my arm chair - interpose, lay their lives down, get involved, then yes, they have NOTHING to say. And brave men must kill and be killed until next time. Too late. I mean HOW did Rwanda happen?! It took over three months. 15 weeks to kill half a million people by HAND.
The only solution to the Palestinian problem is Christianity. As it was in Northern Ireland. As it was in South Africa. Truth and seeking forgiveness and reconciliation. SUSTAINED. Forever and ever.
And no I don't know how. Apart from those fabulous and yeah flawed and fraught and failing examples.
It can't just be me and it's not. It's Brian McLaren the prophet of the emerging Church. This time. It was Mother Theresa, Ian Paisley, Martin McGuinness, Oscar Romero, Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, Mohandas Ghandi, Maximillian Kolbe ... Stephen, Jesus.
I'm DONE with dispensationalism, eschatology, pie in the sky.
So what's to be done? Now that I'm free?
To solve the problems all CAUSED by subverted Christainity? MORE subverted Christianity? Or the original and best?
Empty rhetoric I'm sure.
Why didn't Christians stop Rwanda?
Why aren't WE stopping Israel-Palestine?
With sacrificial love? The only redemptive violence that works.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
My problem knowing what to do on the basis of it when faced with a terrible evil that ought to be opposed.
Economic harshness isn't in itself a sufficient justification for gassing Jews and torturing gypsies. And in any case, recognising one's culpability in creating the economic conditions that led to the situation doesn't to my mind help in the decision of whether to go to war against an aggressive and evil expanding empire.
If the Allies, especially the French, had promoted a just peace in 1918 I doubt we would be asking about the justness of a WW2.
quote:
Regarding your comments on the Irish, affability isn't always a great guide to a moral compass on an individual basis, and societies are usually more pluralistic mixes of individuals than ones surface impression might indicate.
I think the Irish are probably like the rest of us - a mixed bag of people prone to doing terrible things when egged on by opinion leaders and/or authority. [/QB]
Affability AND the invention of Guinness, though, do make the Irish head and shoulders above all others of Europe. I suppose, though, what I most admire about them is their natural humility and their toleration of their clearly lesser neighbors.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
...the invention of Guinness...
Ahem. Porter is an English style of beer. In fact a London style of beer. Probably invented in the early 18th century. Only copied in Ireland later.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
[qb] ...the invention of Guinness...
Ahem. Porter is an English style of beer. In fact a London style of beer. Probably invented in the early 18th century.
Well, double Ahem on you, pal. Notice I said Guinness, not porter.
quote:
Only copied in Ireland later.
Not merely copied, but perfected, kind sir.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
If the Allies, especially the French, had promoted a just peace in 1918 I doubt we would be asking about the justness of a WW2.
If I knock you to the ground and kick you and beat you, it gives you a reason to get mad, it gives you a reason to start a fight. It does not give you an excuse to shoot the neighbour's baby.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
If the Allies, especially the French, had promoted a just peace in 1918 I doubt we would be asking about the justness of a WW2.
If I knock you to the ground and kick you and beat you, it gives you a reason to get mad, it gives you a reason to start a fight. It does not give you an excuse to shoot the neighbour's baby.
Of course not, but you driving me to shooting babies doesn't somehow make your earlier screwing with me ok, does it? But I think the Allies learned the lesson by not having a harsh Versailles-type deal thrust on the Germans a second time.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
It doesn't make the earlier screwing OK, but neither does it make the baby-shooting OK either... and nor does it mean that the earlier-screwer acts unjustly if he/she intervenes with force to prevent the baby-shooter from being a baby shooter.
(To change the terms in line with the recent example but essentially the same argument I posted earlier).
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It doesn't make the earlier screwing OK, but neither does it make the baby-shooting OK either... and nor does it mean that the earlier-screwer acts unjustly if he/she intervenes with force to prevent the baby-shooter from being a baby shooter.
(To change the terms in line with the recent example but essentially the same argument I posted earlier).
At least you knocked off the earlier screwing you had been doing, probably realizing it contributed heavily to baby shooting.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
"Contributed heavily" might be pushing it. I'd feel terrible about it of course, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to accept more responsibility for the infanticide than the baby-shooter themselves.
You also ought to stop the baby-shooting if you can, and to regard it as justified in using force to stop the baby-shooting.
But yes, you also ought to knock off the screwing, so to speak.
[ 16. November 2012, 17:06: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
But I think the Allies learned the lesson by not having a harsh Versailles-type deal thrust on the Germans a second time.
What? We were much harder on Germany the second time! We took over their country. We split it into four parts. When we later on reunited three of them we forced them to adopt a constitution that we wrote. The Russians literally built a wall right acroiss the middle of their capital city. We subjected them to military occupation - some of which still goes on.
Large parts of the country were taken away from Germany and given to outher countries, particularly Poland. The inhabitants of those areas were mostly expelled and sent to Germany as refugees. Thost that is, who didn't die in Russian prison camps.
During the famine winter of 1945/46 Allied military forces actively prevented food aid going to most Germans - it was diverted to non-Germans.
We tried hundreds of their politifcal and military leaders in the war crimes courts, killed many of them, and imprisoned others. But ordinary Germans went through a legal process we imposed on them as well. We interrogated and investigated almost every single surviving man over the age of 18 and unless they satisfied our rules they couldn't get a job or go to college. Nearly two million Germans were prevented from working in any official or professional capacity whatever, some of them for as long as five years. Over a million were actually tried in court. Nearly a hundred thousand were detained in prison camps. Tens of thousands of those prisoners died - mostly but not entirely in the Soviet zones.
Allied soldiers and civil servants took control of every single media outlet - every publisher, every radio station, even museums and libraries - and remained in charge for anything from two to five years, handing over only to hand-picked managers who were certified anti-Nazis.
The occupying forces imposed strict censorship. They rewrote history, confiscating and destroying all apparently pro-Nazi materials - books, newspapers, medals, monuments, posters.
We removed vast amounts of industrial machinery, and also the technicians and engineers and scientists who designed and built it. Both the US and Soviet ballistic missile programs and space programs were started with captured German rockets - and in the US largely run by captured German scientists as well.
Personally I think most of that was a good thing. They deserved it, and Germany and Europe came out of it better in the end and the Nazis got comprehensively fucked over. But you can't say it wasn't harsh or brutal. It was.
[ 16. November 2012, 18:44: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
Ok, Ken. It just never looked harshed over during my lifetime but ok.
Did I mention the Irish make great beer?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Did I mention the Irish make great beer?
They learned it from the English.
Who learned it from the Germans.
Who got the idea from the Czecks.
Beer is Protestant Drink. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
On the other hand our cider is all our own idea. (Even if the word "cider" originated in Hebrew)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Cedd007
Shipmate
# 16180
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Posted
To take the first suggested date for being 'just', 1919, the historian Margaret Macmillan in her recent study of the Treaty of Versailles, 'Peacemakers', argues that the amount of Reparations Germany had to pay was not actually that much. She also says, after chronicling the follies of the Peacemakers, that all things considered the peacemakers didn't do a bad job, and the statesmen who presided over world affairs between 1919 and 1939 should take a good deal of the blame for the outbreak of World War Two. That argument would suggest that Britain and France should have stopped Germany occupying the Rhineland in 1936: in theory it shouldn't have been difficult for 30 French divisions to send 3 German battalions scuttling back across the Rhine, and certainly from the point of view of casualties it would have fulfilled the conditions of a Just War (although, no doubt, saving up trouble for the future).
I could go on. But a little voice, probably my own giving advice to GCSE History students, is reminding me 'Read the question carefully'. What I have just provided is my twopennyworth relating to the general topic area. But the angle of the question is when did it become a just war?
What looks at first sight like a very open question is in fact a closed one, because in considering what actually brought about hostilities between Britain and Germany in 1939 you may need to go back long before the First World War to the way that a very powerful German nation came together in the 1860's or to the failure of British and German negotiators to stop an Anglo-German naval race in the early 1900's. So the 'when' part of the question is very difficult.
It's the 'Just War' part of the question that poses the real difficulties and begs too many other questions. The Just War idea began to be codified in the Middle Ages in societies that thought, incorrectly I think, that they were christian. Before that, in the so-called Dark Ages, a more realistic christian idea was that war was sometimes the lesser of two evils. Earlier still, the first christians wanted nothing to do with war, bishops were always calling on christian soldiers to resign, and many early famous christian Saints did resign and were martyred because of it.
Our Lord seems to have been quite clear on the subject of war: his kingdom had nothing to do with the kingdoms of this world. For some reason we have found it difficult to take this teaching seriously: I must confess my military history shelf is overflowing and I have one or two thin volumes on peacemaking.
Posts: 58 | From: Essex, United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2011
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cedd007:
Our Lord seems to have been quite clear on the subject of war: his kingdom had nothing to do with the kingdoms of this world. For some reason we have found it difficult to take this teaching seriously: I must confess my military history shelf is overflowing and I have one or two thin volumes on peacemaking.
So why did he teach us to pray "Thy kingdom come...on earth as in heaven?'
Surely, peacemaking is a key part of discipleship.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Cedd007, I can't help thinking it's better to simplify this.
1. Irrespective of whether the Germans might have had grounds to complain about reparations and Versailles,
a. Did that grumble give them the right to invade Czechoslovakia, which had never been theirs?
b. Did that grumble give them the right to invade Poland, most of which had never been theirs, and the bit that had, they had acquired under an illegal partition?
2. Would it have been OK for the Germans to have waged war on the rest of Europe from 1939 if they hadn't also been led by anti-semitic demons?
3. If I invade another country illegally, does it make it all right if nobody stops me?
4. Given 3, if the next time I do it people declare war on me, does their not fighting the previous time make me right and them wrong?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Cedd007 - excellent. You can't make lasting peace with a gun.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Cedd007
Shipmate
# 16180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Cedd007:
Our Lord seems to have been quite clear on the subject of war: his kingdom had nothing to do with the kingdoms of this world. For some reason we have found it difficult to take this teaching seriously: I must confess my military history shelf is overflowing and I have one or two thin volumes on peacemaking.
So why did he teach us to pray "Thy kingdom come...on earth as in heaven?'
Surely, peacemaking is a key part of discipleship.
Absolutely. But 'mainstream' Christians have had a bad record of putting this into practice. Quakers perhaps have been consistently better. What I was trying to get at is that the idea of redemptive violence is so much in our bloodstream that we don't, as a culture, as society, as Christendom, really begin to think of alternatives.
Posts: 58 | From: Essex, United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2011
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Cedd007
Shipmate
# 16180
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Posted
In reply to Enoch:
First of all it would be nice if International Relations were simple. Unfortunately only school-playground fights are simple, and once the 'he started it' routine begins even they can become complicated. Our brains are geared to sort out problems among human beings, not vast communities. So we tend to think of countries as individuals, even referring to a country as 'she', and perhaps making lists of good and bad ones. All countries are built, at some point, on violence towards others, though perhaps there are exceptions. So in reality the background to World War Two was exceedingly complicated, and the fact that Nazi Germany was so monstrously evil can mislead us into believing the triumphalist History we teach at school. (It didn't occur to me how Jingoistic my own narrative of Britain's past was until I had the task of explaining our History syllabus to some visiting German teachers.) Although History is generally written up in the form of connected facts, that is often a feature imposed by historians to make sense of a series of unconnected cock-ups; or, as someone else put it: 'History is one damn thing after another'.
My answers to Questions 1a, 1b and 2 are all 'No'. Q3 & 4? Jesus did say something about kings having to count up the odds before taking action, showing that he did understand what makes the world we've made tick – he just didn't want to have anything to do with the evil ways and means we adopt. However, if the UK did the invading (Q3) I would say that's not right, and resisting it (Q4) isn't right either - though it might be regarded as the lesser of two evils.
Posts: 58 | From: Essex, United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Did I mention the Irish make great beer?
They learned it from the English.
Who learned it from the Germans.
Who got the idea from the Czecks.
Beer is Protestant Drink.
Hadn't realized the Mesopotamians and ancient Egyptians were protestant. Hmmmm, learn something new everyday. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
[tangent]
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Did I mention the Irish make great beer?
They learned it from the English.
Who learned it from the Germans.
Who got the idea from the Czecks.
Beer is Protestant Drink.
Hadn't realized the Mesopotamians and ancient Egyptians were protestant. Hmmmm, learn something new everyday.
In my experience, beer is generally reliable as a palatable and potable beverage in nearly any country. When in doubt, have beer. Much more consistent than wine, less likely to be contaminated than water, and safer than distilled anything. Tea is a second possibility, but it is much easier to make awful tea in my experience. I only know about North & South America, Europe and Africa. I can confirm acceptable Australian beer from imports. Is beer reliable in Asia?
[/tangent]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Tangent alert
Curiously, no prophet, England is the one place where the beer isn't automatically reliable, for a reason which is closely related to why it can also be uniquely good.
Most of the rest of the world kills the yeast when the beer has fermented, and then injects carbon dioxide into the dead beer to give it its fizz. Quite a lot of beer in England is barrelled with live yeast active in it. It carries on fermenting in the barrel and that gives it its head.
It also means that in England, beer can go off and become vinegary. It won't give you cholera, but off beer can give you an unpleasantly liquid experience elsewhere than in the mouth.
End of tangent alert
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Did I mention the Irish make great beer?
They learned it from the English.
Who learned it from the Germans.
Who got the idea from the Czecks.
Beer is Protestant Drink.
Hadn't realized the Mesopotamians and ancient Egyptians were protestant. Hmmmm, learn something new everyday.
I appreciate you and Ken beginning a list of people who made the early attempts at something it would take the Irish to get right.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
When in doubt, have beer.
You might do well putting that on t-shirts and selling it through something like cafe press.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Did I mention the Irish make great beer?
They learned it from the English.
Who learned it from the Germans.
Who got the idea from the Czecks.
Beer is Protestant Drink.
Hadn't realized the Mesopotamians and ancient Egyptians were protestant. Hmmmm, learn something new everyday.
I appreciate you and Ken beginning a list of people who made the early attempts at something it would take the Irish to get right.
A friend of mine who has travelled all over the world maintains that Nigerian Guinness is the best.
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Possible scenarios that explain this include;
a) friend is Nigerian
b) friend has recently spent 5 hrs in Lagos airport after 12hr flight and had just arrived, contrary to all expectation, safely at a hotel bar
c) friend is deluded
d) all the above.
[ 19. November 2012, 08:59: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
[tangent] Is beer reliable in Asia?
[/tangent]
China produces perfectly acceptable lager (Tsingtao is widely exported)- all of the beer I had there was decent, and we drank quite a bit- both cheaper and safer than bottled water.
Then again, they learned it from the Germans- Tsingtao is produced in a brewery built by German settlers.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Please tell me you're not talking about Guinness, which is a weak, thin, pastiche of Stout, just about drinkable when there's no cask ale available, but otherwise pretty meh?
I had some Tsingtao the other day. It's drinkable, but I'd not cross the street to buy one.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Tangent alert, but it's a really nice tangent
I like Guinness, but it's not a patch on what it used to be. Does any Shipmate remember cask conditioned Guinness in Ireland when the head was created by spooning off the head with a wooden spoon, and topping up the glass with the settled Guinness from the previous pint? Does that exist anywhere these days?
Mind, it took so long to draw that it's not surprising it's been superseded.
End of tangent alert
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Beer is Protestant Drink.
Hadn't realized the Mesopotamians and ancient Egyptians were protestant. Hmmmm, learn something new everyday.
That's wasn't technically beer but some other kind of ale. Beer, strictly speaking, is ale made from malt barley, and flavoured with hops. As described by Hildegard of Bingen, and later enforced first in Bavaria and then throughout Germany in the famous Reinheitsgebot of 1516.
Which was promulgated less than two years before Martin Luther wrote his famous 95 theses!
Coincidence?
I think not!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
So, the foundation of Protestantism is merely getting drunk on a different sort of beverage?
Goes a long way to explaining some of the inter-faith arguments I have seen.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Might I suggest a beer thread, perhaps in heaven ?
Doublethink
Purgatory Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Makepiece
Shipmate
# 10454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Did the war become just when Germany violated the Treaty of Versailles or was the Treaty of Versailles unjust in itself?
Yes, the answer is that the war would have been just had it been started in 1933. By beginning the process of rearmament the Nazis violated the Treaty of Versailles. Had the allies intervened at this stage Germany would in all likelihood have been forced to concede at a very early stage and millions upon millions of lives would have been saved and peace preserved. I'm not saying that it would always be just to go to war with a country which is rearming but when that country is controlled by a fascist dictatorship it will virtually always be just.
Of the course the Treaty of Versailles itself was disastrous but not because of the restrictions on rearmament. Winston Churchill advised that a defeated country should be disarmed but should not be economically crippled. The problem with Versailles was that it did the latter and created a vacuum for someone like Hitler to fill.
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Don't ask for whom the bell tolls...
Posts: 938 | From: Nottingham | Registered: Sep 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The Treaty of Versailles was not just by Christ. Christianity failed to stop WWI and failed the peace. Christianity in Germany, Belgium, France, Britain & it's Anglo-Saxon empire, Russia, Italy, Austro-Hungary, the Netherlands and America et al was spectacularly successful at war however, the best ever really.
[ 19. November 2012, 19:49: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
But I think the Allies learned the lesson by not having a harsh Versailles-type deal thrust on the Germans a second time.
What? We were much harder on Germany the second time! <Massive snip>
Personally I think most of that was a good thing. They deserved it, and Germany and Europe came out of it better in the end and the Nazis got comprehensively fucked over. But you can't say it wasn't harsh or brutal. It was.
Perhaps the second time many Germans felt they (the country) deserved the treatment?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
It has been said that the bombing of German cities, both by RAF and US Air-force, in the closing months of the war was essentially "terror bombing".
Apparently done to send the whole country a message that 70 years of threatening war / waging war needed to stop .
Was this aim ever really achieved, or was it a Country split in half that prevented it from once again becoming a threat ?
Times have changed , let us thank God for that . And the fact that we no-longer need to be "matched with His hour".
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
But I think the Allies learned the lesson by not having a harsh Versailles-type deal thrust on the Germans a second time.
What? We were much harder on Germany the second time! <Massive snip>
Personally I think most of that was a good thing. They deserved it, and Germany and Europe came out of it better in the end and the Nazis got comprehensively fucked over. But you can't say it wasn't harsh or brutal. It was.
Perhaps the second time many Germans felt they (the country) deserved the treatment?
One of the key differences in the nature of Germany's defeats was that WWI saw the strategic surrender of an adventuring army on foreign soil before the war touched the German people to any significant degree, but WWII saw a defeat at home. Churchill's targeting of the German civilian population in WWII (see the Area Bombing Directive of 1942) and the 1945 invasion of Germany meant that it was a comprehensive defeat that was felt by the ordinary Johann Blow on the street, and the need for a "recovery" managed by the victorious allies would only have emphasised this.
The capacity for outrage that was there after WWI would not have been left intact after WWII for the majority of Germans, which is probably (along with 46 years of being dominated by two other foreign powers) the reason they've successfully transitioned to a very stable position in terms of foreign affairs.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
rolyn, uranium is being enriched for Allah.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Don't think we'll need to worry about 'packing all are troubles in an old kit-bag' if alah pushes the button Martin .
Got a feeling the smiling will be pretty short-lived as well.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Now I like my beer, but it definitely isn't what WWII was about ...
Maybe. You raise an interesting question: Did the average soldier/sailor/marine/airman spend more time in combat than he spent drinking beer?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Allah won't be pushing any button rolyn. Only Christians can do that.
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Love wins
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
No worries there then Martin . We Christians are not likely to get any consensus as to who actually gets to push the button.
Interesting point Mere Nick . During WW1, the inactivity of trench-life meant British soldiers who came home intact weighed a good deal more than when they left.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Christians have been the only ones to use nuclear weapons so far. I suspect they'll be the last.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Christians have been the only ones to use nuclear weapons so far.
Really? So the US government and air force and the Manhattan project and all the scientific research and engineering development in the USA and Britain and Canada and other countries, and all the strategic plannign and logistics work they needed to make to happen was all done by Christians? Were there no atheists or agnostics among them at all? I'm pretty sure quite a few of them were Jews. And I can think of one Hindu, maybe there were more. And seeing as millions of people were involved in the industrial production, and tens of thousands in the design and construction and testing of the bombs and hundreds if not thousands in their actual delivery I'd guess that at least some of them were Muslims or Buddhists.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Yeah really Ken.
Christendom gave us nukes and (we) used them on its (our) enemies without a WORD being said.
Not a word.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken
During the famine winter of 1945/46 Allied military forces actively prevented food aid going to most Germans - it was diverted to non-Germans.
This was justifiable on medical grounds. There was an extremely serious food shortage in Europe. During the war, food was shipped from the German-occupied countries to Germany for years, and the residents of the occupied countries were malnourished for years. Food shortages became severe in Germany only during the last year of the war. The people in the formerly-occupied countries were much more seriously undernourished than the people in Germany.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Makepiece:
The problem with Versailles was that it did the latter and created a vacuum for someone like Hitler to fill.
I once (mid 1970s?) shared a 2nd class sleeper compartment from Edinburgh to Bristol with a nice guy who said he was Professor of History at South Wales University. During the Edinburgh-Carstairs portion, prior to getting thrown about when the additional carriages from Glasgow were added, experienced users of the route would hope their British Rail arranged companion was an interesting talker. On this occasion I got very lucky - this guy explained, in language even I could understand, how the ways that the various successive power vacuums (starting with the withdrawal of the Roman military in 400 and whatever CE) in what became Germany were eventually resolved led to an almost inevitable WWII should a rabble-rousing right-wing orator be available in the post WWI era.
I don’t recall the detail but it was fascinating, logical and unlike any history I was taught at school.
As to when a war becomes just - all wars are always just, on all sides of the conflict because no sane person goes to battle without knowing that right, justice (and, if there is such a thing, God) are indisputably on his side. In post-war analyses right, justice and God have, perhaps unsurprisingly, a habit of favouring the winning side.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
... Did the average soldier/sailor/marine/airman spend more time in combat than he spent drinking beer?
My understanding is most of them were not in combat ever.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Christendom gave us nukes and (we) used them on its (our) enemies without a WORD being said.
Not a word.
Given the no-surrender Kamikaze psyche in 1945 Japan , I do not think any communication that went - 'We have a weapon so terrible you must surrender or we use it'- would have cut any ice whatsoever .
In fact I was surprised to learn the Japanese High Command was still holding out even after the Nagasaki attack . It wasn't until a 3rd H-bomb was destined for another city that they finally saw sense.
Yes, an absolutely monstrous business . Yet the whole world , including Japan itself in the long-run, benefited from a decisive end to History's, (so far), darkest war .
[ 25. November 2012, 08:26: Message edited by: rolyn ]
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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