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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: I went to a catholic mass for the first time
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redunderthebed
Apprentice
# 17480
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Posted
On christmas eve it was very interesting waaay too ritualised for my liking however the church itself was beautiful and i enjoyed the service.
A few discussion points/questions......
1) How you can get blessing from the father of the church i thought god was the only one that can bless you.
2) How you can only recieve communion if you are confirmed in the church that doesn't sit well with me. I think that should be a thing that all who attend should partake in it.
3)I think that they put too much emphasis on what in my opinion is merely an human institution the catholic church Nothing that is human and worldy imo is holy that only comes from god.Instead they should use the time that they spend blowing their own trumpet praising god etc
4) Is it necessary to get on your knees to pray?. I know they mentioned in the old testament that you should. However when jesus died on the cross a new covenant was formed between god and his children therefor rendering the rituals etc of the old testament unnecessary i thought.
Personally i think they put way too many barriers to experience god and having a personal relationship with god. I'am always suspicious of organisations that claim in any way to be conduits of god or his representative there was only one man who could truly claim either.
[ 10. April 2013, 05:37: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posts: 24 | From: Port Lincoln | Registered: Dec 2012
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
This reminds me vaguely of Mark Twain's 'Connecticut Yankee at the Court of King Arthur'.
There's Frequently Asked Questions about the Catholic Church that might be a good place to get some of your questions in context.
Frequently Asked Questions About the Catholic Church
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
there is less ritual kneeling in RC mass than in what i recall of Cofe services but bottom line is - please do sign up for MW to give feedback on denominations other than your own.
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by redunderthebed:
1) How you can get blessing from the father of the church i thought god was the only one that can bless you.
If that were the case, Esau had no cause to be angry with Jacob.
quote:
3)I think that they put too much emphasis on what in my opinion is merely an human institution the catholic church Nothing that is human and worldy imo is holy that only comes from god.Instead they should use the time that they spend blowing their own trumpet praising god etc
Why should they operate according to your beliefs, rather than according to their own?
quote:
4) Is it necessary to get on your knees to pray?. I know they mentioned in the old testament that you should. However when jesus died on the cross a new covenant was formed between god and his children therefor rendering the rituals etc of the old testament unnecessary i thought.
"You must always remember what they are constantly forgetting, that they are animals, and what they do with their bodies affects their souls." --Screwtape.
It's not necessary. That doesn't mean it isn't good or isn't proper or isn't worth doing.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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redunderthebed
Apprentice
# 17480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mary LA:
This reminds me vaguely of Mark Twain's 'Connecticut Yankee at the Court of King Arthur'.
There's Frequently Asked Questions about the Catholic Church that might be a good place to get some of your questions in context.
Frequently Asked Questions About the Catholic Church
Cheers for the link it is very interesting although i don't think it answered all the questions i had.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
[qb]3)I think that they put too much emphasis on what in my opinion is merely an human institution the catholic church Nothing that is human and worldy imo is holy that only comes from god.Instead they should use the time that they spend blowing their own trumpet praising god etc
Why should they operate according to your beliefs, rather than according to their own?
]
Didn't say they had to i was merely giving my opinion.
[ 26. December 2012, 05:12: Message edited by: redunderthebed ]
Posts: 24 | From: Port Lincoln | Registered: Dec 2012
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
A Baptist goes to a Roman Catholic Mass and then shares their opinion of how flawed the RC church is and h[I would say more but that might be hellish]. In other news the Pope remains a Catholic.
![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by redunderthebed:
On christmas eve it was very interesting waaay too ritualised for my liking however the church itself was beautiful and i enjoyed the service.
I'm glad that you enjoyed the Mass, rutb. The reason for it being so ritualised is because it is a ritual. It is, quite simply the unbloody, ritualised representation of the paschal mystery of Christ's obedience, suffering, death and resurrection.
quote:
A few discussion points/questions......
1) How you can get blessing from the father of the church i thought god was the only one that can bless you.
Why do you think that? The whole of salvation history is one of God using human agents to be the channel of his blessings. For Catholics, the bishop or priest (and, indeed, the deacon) is understood as one who is set apart to act "in he person of Christ the Head of the Church" and so when he blesses, it is God's blessing.
quote:
2) How you can only recieve communion if you are confirmed in the church that doesn't sit well with me. I think that should be a thing that all who attend should partake in it.
First, it isn't restricted to those who have been confirmed but to those who are members of the Catholic Church in full communion. Second, the reason for the restriction - which is the subject of several Dead Horse threads - is because the Mass is seen as an act primarily of Christ Himself in which the Church participates. The way in which one becomes part of the Church is through Baptism. If one is, in someway, separated from the union of the Church, through sin or schism or heresy, then that unity with the Body of Christ, the Church is damaged or impaired. Since Holy Communion is considered by Catholics to be, amongst other things, a sign of that unity, allowing those who are separated from it to receive Holy Communion would be entirely inappropriate.
quote:
[3)I think that they put too much emphasis on what in my opinion is merely an human institution the catholic church Nothing that is human and worldy imo is holy that only comes from god.Instead they should use the time that they spend blowing their own trumpet praising god etc
Yes, rutb, but Catholics don't believe that the Catholic Church is "merely a human institution". We believe it is, quite literally, a divine institution: instituted by Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God, and the chief means of His continuing presence on earth. It is, of course, a body made up too of human members whose capacity for sin damages the Church but that sin never quite destroys the Church's inherent nature as Christ's own mystical body.
quote:
[4) Is it necessary to get on your knees to pray?. I know they mentioned in the old testament that you should. However when jesus died on the cross a new covenant was formed between god and his children therefor rendering the rituals etc of the old testament unnecessary i thought.
No, it isn't necessary to get on your knees to pray. However, the desire, the impulse to do so has been remarkably constant and persistent amongst Christians. It has nothing to do with necessity and everything to do with the culturally appropriate response of the human to the divine. As for the status of the Covenant with the Hebrews, that too has been the subject of threads passim in Dead Horses and elsewhere. I would add only one comment: it is in the nature of Covenants that they abide even in the face of infidelity. If God is ever faithful to His Covenant with Israel might well be consummated in Jesus Christ but that could hardly mean it was "unnecessary".
quote:
Personally i think they put way too many barriers to experience god and having a personal relationship with god. I'am always suspicious of organisations that claim in any way to be conduits of god or his representative there was only one man who could truly claim either.
And Catholics believe that He did and He did so quite consciously passed that on to His disciples, as, for example, John 20:23 bears witness. As for putting barriers to experiencing God: you might be right, although it has always seemed to me that the whole system of Sacraments and sacramentals indicated entirely the opposite tendency.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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redunderthebed
Apprentice
# 17480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
A Baptist goes to a Roman Catholic Mass and then shares their opinion of how flawed the RC church is and h[I would say more but that might be hellish]. In other news the Pope remains a Catholic.
I didn't say that the church was flawed it was that there was some things that didn't sit well with me.Anyway calling me a baptist was probably me overstating things a bit, its more that i've found a church that i'm comfortable with and it just happens to be baptist one.
Posts: 24 | From: Port Lincoln | Registered: Dec 2012
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by redunderthebed:
4) Is it necessary to get on your knees to pray?. I know they mentioned in the old testament that you should.
It's not necessary. That doesn't mean it isn't good or isn't proper or isn't worth doing.
That's just what I was thinking Mousethief. Never mind necessity and what the scriptures say. If it helps then do it. If it hinders, leave it out. Jesus was born a child and lived as a man. God The Father is beyond our understanding. Falling to our knees is often the most helpful posture when we try to approach Him.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
Well done for being courageous enough to work out your own faith rather than just swallowing one institution's version of things.
As for answering some of your questions (but from a non-denom point of view)...
- True, they should be more transparent about the fact they are merely acting as a messenger communicating to you about God's blessing which is true regardless of whether they communicated it or not. It's exactly the same as the reason that evangelism is important - it's the truth so it needs to be told otherwise people won't hear it.
------------------------ - I also prefer "open table" to a closed communion, closed communion does not sit well with my understanding of the Kingdom of God being an active invitation to all, even those who don't have it all together. Many pastors in the Uniting Church in Australia will include a statement along the lines of "sharing in communion is not limited to those who are members of this church or denomination, all who are loved by God, love Jesus and want to love Him more are welcome" when introducing the sharing of communion. I consider this to be a very powerful statement about the Kingdom they serve, and one that requires a fair whack of courage as well because you don't know who you're going to get.
------------------------ - As with the first point, this is something that effective communication should make clearer and that a well-trained priest should be able to help you understand what's going on. This is something I like about the Uniting Church, the central body does not dictate exactly how things are to be said during worship, there is freedom for the local leader to communicate to their local people as is necessary.
------------------------ - When it comes to kneeling within a shared time of worship, I would put that down to a matter of style, perhaps being dictated by instructions from HQ. At the Uniting Church community I'm part of in southern Adelaide we prefer not to place any emphasis on kneeling as a ritual procedure, primarily because we have a congregation of all ages including those who are less able to kneel or stand.
At the same time (in agreement with Mousethief and Hairy Biker) we do also acknowledge that many people choose to kneel because it is a powerful sign of coming before God in a spirit of humility, and that it is helpful for them. Therefore it's not something that should ever be obstructed if that's what helps people in their faith, in this day and age the last thing we need to be doing is pouring cold water on those people who are passionate about their worship.
I'll never forget the time at an Easter Camp where this teenage girl who was in a wheelchair tapped out with her little typewriter thing that she wanted to kneel during a time of prayer and ministry at the end of one of the sessions. Two of her friends then got her out of her wheelchair and supported her as she kneeled on the floor with many others, as a youth leader it was so moving to see that we had young people who would gladly put their own needs aside for the sake of encouraging one of their friends in her faith.
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Oh, and welcome to another South Aussie on the ship! I know a couple of the Uniting Church pastors on Eyre Peninsula, and I can thoroughly recommend their ministries as ones which should cause you far less concern about most of the points you raised in the first post. I don't know any Baptists over there, but I do know that in country SA there is generally a great deal of positive cooperation between the different churches, and that Adelaide would be a better place if everyone was like the pastors who minister in that spirit in the rural areas.
[ 26. December 2012, 10:08: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Please be aware of the Dead Horse boundaries, e.g. the closed vs. open communion table debate belongs on the Dead Horses board.
Thankyou,
Doublethink
Purgatory
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
Even if it comes up as part of a larger topic? Not wanting to make a confrontation, but can we talk in the Styx?
[ 26. December 2012, 10:41: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Kneeling -
Surely the point is not whether you as an individual find it helpful - you are taking part in a communual action and the congregation needs do things together. This is not because they are being dragooned by higher authorities but because they are taking part in a communual action, expressing their dignity as part of the people of God.
By ritual, do you mean using actions and not just words? Any order of service is a ritual.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Kneeling -
Surely the point is not whether you as an individual find it helpful - you are taking part in a communual action and the congregation needs do things together.
Sounds like a nice idea, but I don't think it will work in the real world. Most congregations will have people who are unable to kneel (or stand at other times) without enduring a great deal of discomfort, so having instructions to sit-stand-sit-kneel-sit-stand etc would actually lead to less unity.
I prefer the approach of acknowledging that people are both individuals and part of the community, and the expression of this through recognising the aspect of 'individual' worship while united in community. Community does not come from conformity, but from recognising the beauty of many different people being united in their faith, and validating that different expressions of that faith all still build the community.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Sounds like a nice idea, but I don't think it will work in the real world.
The real world clearly doesn't include the 1.2 billion Catholics, who have swallowed one institution's take on faith rather than the infinitely more worthy of congratulation working it all out for themselves.
quote:
Most congregations will have people who are unable to kneel (or stand at other times) without enduring a great deal of discomfort, so having instructions to sit-stand-sit-kneel-sit-stand etc would actually lead to less unity.
The Catholic Church being clearly marked by less unity than, for example, your particular brand of Protestantism.
quote:
I prefer the approach of acknowledging that people are both individuals and part of the community, and the expression of this through recognising the aspect of 'individual' worship while united in community. Community does not come from conformity, but from recognising the beauty of many different people being united in their faith, and validating that different expressions of that faith all still build the community.
Thank you for that. How comforting to know that you believe your take on Christian faith and practice is preferable to other takes. How exactly does it help rutb understand what he/she has just experienced for the first time?
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
This is sounding uncomfortably like the family argument at Christmas dinner, could we all chill and dial back on the sectarianism ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
A few years ago, I moved from the local Methodist church to the Lutheran, which follows a very Catholic-like service. I'm familiar with the complaints of the OP, as heard by friends and family members on the rare occasions when they've gone with me.
It's hard to explain to them just how safe the "rituals," can make me feel. For example, a woman I know who works in a local business, said, "Lutheran? Don't you find it rather dry? You should come to my Non-denominational church! I'm preaching next Sunday!" I bit back saying, "That's why I'm not coming!" She may be a wonderful, inspiring speaker but I've heard some very strange interpretations of the Bible from people at the front with no actual theological education.
I could kneel when I first joined this church and cannot now but I still enjoy seeing the congregation move together like a fine dance troupe, even while a few of us around the edges provide contrast. Just as method actors learn that "making a cry face" helps to actually bring on tears, I think kneeling helps us to feel submissive.
Those "barriers," the OP speaks of are not barriers to me at all but safe conduits prepared for me.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
This is sounding uncomfortably like the family argument at Christmas dinner, could we all chill and dial back on the sectarianism ?
The entire OP is one huge sectarian smear.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
In our Anglican church, there is often an invitation to "Please sit or kneel, whatever supports your prayer"
We have quite a few visitors, including Baptists (given the high proportion of Baptist in this area) and have never heard a complaint.
In a Baptist church, I sit as is the custom. Club rules for club members.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by redunderthebed:
1) How you can get blessing from the father of the church i thought god was the only one that can bless you.
It gets relayed by priests. You're always blessed by God, but sometimes as human beings we need a bit of extra encouragement.
quote:
2) How you can only recieve communion if you are confirmed in the church that doesn't sit well with me. I think that should be a thing that all who attend should partake in it.
It's a family thing. See Trisagion's more informed post.
quote:
3)I think that they put too much emphasis on what in my opinion is merely an human institution the catholic church Nothing that is human and worldy imo is holy that only comes from god.Instead they should use the time that they spend blowing their own trumpet praising god etc
There's a hell of a lot of pomp, ceremony, spectacle and colour and sometimes I find myself thinking "What does any of this have to do with God?" What it is, though, is partly an expression of love, or wanting to reach out and give something beautiful and impressive to God, but also partly a spectacle for the rest of us - sometimes people need visual prompts to get them thinking - or feeling, and experiencing. A relatively simple worship area with people expressing themselves individually in their own styles doesn't work for everyone. There are different denominations because people have different temperaments, and need different approaches.
quote:
4) Is it necessary to get on your knees to pray?.
No. I don't. Two minutes of that and it starts to be a battle of wills between me and increasing back pain.
quote:
Personally i think they put way too many barriers to experience god and having a personal relationship with god.
As I said, different people need different approaches. Some people do see it as a barrier, that's a perfectly legitimate criticism. Some people see the "barriers" as a framework to help them get to know God better. (This point of view can vary throughout someone's lifetime.) Religious art, formulaic prayers, even the decorations in a church can all play a part in giving you points to consider and which help you to get to know God better. I'm glad you've found the Baptists; hope this gives you what you're looking for.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
This is sounding uncomfortably like the family argument at Christmas dinner, could we all chill and dial back on the sectarianism ?
The entire OP is one huge sectarian smear.
I didn't read it that wayMT. I thought rutb was actually interested in the answers. Double Cheeseburger's contributions, however, were quite another. Of course, the Ships eleventh commandment applied: it only becomes actionable by the Hosts if someone is fool enough to respond to goading.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The ancient stance in liturgical prayer is standing, as it still is for the Orthodox. And I'd rather stand.
My church says in its book "sit or kneel". I kneel, uncomfortable and distracting though it may be.
What I can't understand is sitting for prayer: it makes the congregation out to be wholly passive, particularly for a eucharistic prayer that says "we stand in your presence and praise you".
I realise there will be plenty here who are perfectly happy with sitting to pray and I have no wish to criticize them and many other good and faithful people.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The ancient stance in liturgical prayer is standing, as it still is for the Orthodox. And I'd rather stand.
I don't know that there is any Scriptural support for sitting while praying (if you're the sort that requires Scriptural support for that sort of thing). Standing and prone seem to be the supported modes of prayer in the Good Book. Sitting? Not so much so.
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The entire OP is one huge sectarian smear.
I didn't read it that wayMT. I thought rutb was actually interested in the answers.
Doesn't seem so:
quote:
Originally posted by redunderthebed:
i was merely giving my opinion.
This of course is contrary to his description of his numbered list as "discussion points/questions", leaving me to wonder what this thread is really supposed to be.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
1) How you can get blessing from the father of the church i thought god was the only one that can bless you.
Moses instructed Aaron to bless the people (Numbers 6:23-27). Blessing is a priestly act.
In the New Testament, Christ instructed the Apostles with the same authority (John 20:23).
quote:
2) How you can only recieve communion if you are confirmed in the church that doesn't sit well with me. I think that should be a thing that all who attend should partake in it.
In the Roman Catholic Church, communion symbolizes unity. That unity is expressed through baptism and shared belief in the actual transformation of bread and wine substantively into the body and blood of Jesus Christ (this doctrine is known as transubstantiation). A Roman Catholic would say that someone who is not baptized and/or rejects the Real Presence is not in union with the Church and so communion is meaningless.
quote:
3)I think that they put too much emphasis on what in my opinion is merely an human institution the catholic church Nothing that is human and worldy imo is holy that only comes from god.Instead they should use the time that they spend blowing their own trumpet praising god etc
"Nothing that is human is holy"? Then why did God become human in Jesus Christ? Catholics and other High Church Christians believe that the Incarnation sanctified human nature. It is the Sacramental Principle: that even the crumb of the Communion Host conveys the very divine presence of God.
quote:
4) Is it necessary to get on your knees to pray?. I know they mentioned in the old testament that you should. However when jesus died on the cross a new covenant was formed between god and his children therefor rendering the rituals etc of the old testament unnecessary i thought.
No, it isn't necessary. The argument for kneeling is that Catholics and High Church Christians believe that Christ is present in the Eucharist and represented by the Altar. If you met Jesus Christ in person, would you not kneel before him as Lord and God? The Wise Men adored the Christ Child. Thomas adored the risen Christ after encountering him. If we believe that Christ is present in the Eucharist, then we acknowledge his presence through manual acts of bowing and kneeling.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I was sure there is somewhere when St Paul mentions kneeling for prayer, but I've tried to find it in the Unbound Bible website, and it's not there. There are only four uses of the word "kneel" all in the OT, and one a reference to the camels of Abraham's servant.
A friend who was in the Salvation Army many years ago told me that the prayer session before a public ministry was called "knee drill", confirming that that least sacramental (though highly ritualized) Christian body thought kneeling highly appropriate.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
"O Come let us worship and fall down, and kneel before the LORD our maker"
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
That was one of the other four, but the only one in the psalms.
When I go to a strange church and it is totally impractical to kneel, and the congregation are asked to kneeel, and I judge it would be inconsiderate to fellow worshipers to stand, I sit on the very edge of the seat with my back upright and my hands on my lap.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by redunderthebed:
How you can get blessing from the father of the church i thought god was the only one that can bless you.
The priest says, "May Almighty God bless you . . . " and so is asking God to bless. The priest is not blessing on his own.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Imersge Canfield
Shipmate
# 17431
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Posted
redunderthebed: you will find the mass offered in many contexts and ways. Worth visiting various churches, religious houses, and special interest groups like charismatic renewal meetings.
you will find an amazing array to interest you - even house masses without vestments in the informal setting of some one's and where the euacharist is given to each other, from among the gathering.
Also many siuch gatherings and groups, also religous communities including of women, share the eucharist freely and gladly with all.
Then again you may attend an advertised diocesan lgbt mass and find very formal !
Enjoy !
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'You must not attribute my yielding, to sinister appetites'
"Preach the gospel and only use jewellry if necessary." (The Midge)
Posts: 419 | From: Sun Ship over Grand Fenwick Duchy | Registered: Nov 2012
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by redunderthebed:
How you can get blessing from the father of the church i thought god was the only one that can bless you.
The priest says, "May Almighty God bless you . . . " and so is asking God to bless. The priest is not blessing on his own.
Quite true. I'm surprised that redunderthebed didn't notice that when he was making his check list.
For me, it's "I love lots of RCs and liturgy and saints; it's the institutional Church I can't stand". So I haven't joined the RCC. But I believe the Mass and the liturgical year does a fine job of touching bases each time with the essentials of Christian worship- praise, reading (and singing) of scripture, teaching, reflection, penitence, and finally joining anew the True Body of Christ in Communion. And I always feel welcome as a visitor, especially since priests around here are happy to bless you even if you don't receive. I don't see how any of those attributes are less "holy" or are more human in a bad way than a service of praise songs, preaching, and extemporaneous prayer.
(And Miss Amanda, I'm happy to see you and hope that you are having a wonderful Christmas season. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
I don't really understand all of this concern about kneeling. If you don't want to kneel, don't kneel. If you can't kneel, by all means don't. Lots of people can't kneel, whether because of age or infirmity, and no one I know cares. No one is walking around forcing you.
To make this into something about 'forcing' someone really is just muddying the waters.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Quite.
If you can't kneel, sit. Nobody will notice except the people next to you, and they should jolly well be concentrating on far more important things (the worship of God, penitence for their sins, charity to the neighbour and so forth) to take any notice.
But kneel if you can and that's what everyone else is supposed to do.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
No, it is not necessary to get on your knees to pray. I used to get on my knees, but cannot do it as readily as in the past. Therefore, I either stand or sit during prayers.
I find it ironic you are using the term "catholic" which means universal, to describe the Roman Catholic church. Even Roman Catholics recognize there are separated brothers and sisters. The catholic church comes into being through the action of the Holy Spirit; however, since it is made up of saints and sinners, it is flawed. The church recognizes this and continues to pray for purification and renewal.
In my persuasion the Table is the Lord's Table. It is the Lord that makes the invitation to come to his table. We therefore commune anyone who comes to partake. This Christmas eve I assisted in communing. There was only one boy that came up for a blessing--his mother is staunch Roman Catholic who feels her son should not commune until the fifth grade, which he will be this year. But I also noticed other, much younger children, communing for the first time--they were being given quick instructions on what to do by the adults beside them.
The pastor/priest/father is the representative of God in giving the blessing. It is God that is doing the blessing. But the blessing does take on a human form (incarnate) through the words of the priest. People have always had problems when the Word becomes flesh. Look beyond the man standing in front, to the Word the man is sharing.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The ancient stance in liturgical prayer is standing, as it still is for the Orthodox. And I'd rather stand.
I don't know that there is any Scriptural support for sitting while praying (if you're the sort that requires Scriptural support for that sort of thing). Standing and prone seem to be the supported modes of prayer in the Good Book. Sitting? Not so much so.
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The entire OP is one huge sectarian smear.
I didn't read it that wayMT. I thought rutb was actually interested in the answers.
Doesn't seem so:
quote:
Originally posted by redunderthebed:
i was merely giving my opinion.
This of course is contrary to his description of his numbered list as "discussion points/questions", leaving me to wonder what this thread is really supposed to be.
Scriptural support, aka in this context the regulative principle, would certainly be the hallmark of a group like the Wee Frees, one of whose divines argues
here strongly in favour of standing or kneeling as the posture for prayer, with a strong preference for the former. No instances found (or at least quoted) of sitting. The writer deplores the recent tendency in his part of the kirk for the people to sit ("which attitude is largely practised by English Dissenters") rather than stand.
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Normally the only times I ever hear of instructions being given as when to stand,sit or kneel at RC Masses are at times when there are likely to be a good many people unfamiliar with the rite,such as at funerals or indeed on Christmas eve.Instead of complaining about instructions being given,could one not say it was a good thing that these things were indicated.
It is commonly the case that Catholics will stand out of respect at the reading from the Gospel passage and it is only good,to my mind,that this should be indicated to people.
On Christmas Eve it is quite common for there to be many people unfamiliar with the rite,either non-Catholics or Catholics who have been away from the practioce of the faith for a long time.Even those who haven't been there for a year,especially since, at least in much of the anglophone word the customs of when to stand,sit or kneel have changed slightly.
Even with instructions to kneel those who are unable to do so,those who for vbarious reasons do not wish to,are in no way dragooned into following the instructions.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Regarding kneeling: I am a Catholic. I have not been able to kneel for 30 years or more (Wheelchairs inhibit kneeling). If I think of it at all, I think
quote:
To you, O Lord, I bend the knees of my heart.
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I reverence God by bowing and making the sign of the cross. No one has ever said anything to me.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I like the Orthodox way of standing for prayers - if you are sufficiently hale, hearty and able to do so.
It doesn't sit well with me (excuse the pun) to sit down to pray the Lord's Prayer and other prayers as is done in the CofE.
On the ritual thing ... well, it's a matter of taste and also of the level and extent to which we are exposed to these things. People have to become acclimatised into whatever church setting or style of service they attend ... I used to be a full-on, hand-waving charismatic but that didn't happen overnight. I didn't start raising or waving my hands the first time I attended a charismatic service.
It's the same with the more liturgical and ritualised churches ... I didn't attend a midnight communion this year but I watched the RC Midnight Mass on the telly - from Leeds Cathedral. I thoroughly enjoyed it. The ritual can be distracting to those unaccustomed to it but I find that it adds to the sense of gravitas and actually 'enacts' what is being depicted and represented ... it's a form of dramaturgy.
It's like anything else. It took me a while to develop a taste for beer when I was about 18 but now I'm a fully paid-up member of CAMRA (Campaign for More Real Ale) and could Beer-bore for Britain if invited ...
There is a tendency in the less liturgical churches to regard liturgy and ritual as somehow insincere ... I've not personally known any Baptists who've said as much but I've heard of some who used to go around saying that Anglicans couldn't possibly be sincere because 'they say their prayers out of a book' rather than praying extemporaneously. As if extemporary prayers were somehow automatically more sincere or heart-felt than liturgical ones ...
The Lord looks at the heart.
The prayers and ceremonies in the more liturgical settings are vehicles through which people pray and worship God ... in that sense they are no different to the means that are used in the non or less liturgical churches. Of course, to full-on sacramentalists they are rather more than that - they both effect and enact what they represent ...
But it's good to keep an open mind. God is God, whether people are worshipping him in an RC High Mass or in a tin-tabernacle with Redemption Hymnal, a wheezy organ and a set of tambourines.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Humans are ritual creatures. Yesterday night, probably a lot of people, not only Christians, gathered together at a family table to eat dinner together. That is a "ritual." In January, President Obama will be inaugurated for the second time, that is a ritual as well.
Heck, regular Bible reading is a ritual.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But it's good to keep an open mind. God is God, whether people are worshipping him in an RC High Mass or in a tin-tabernacle with Redemption Hymnal, a wheezy organ and a set of tambourines.
It is good to venture outside your own tradition occasionally to see how the others pray and worship.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
In the Roman Catholic Church, communion symbolizes unity. That unity is expressed through baptism and shared belief in the actual transformation of bread and wine substantively into the body and blood of Jesus Christ (this doctrine is known as transubstantiation). A Roman Catholic would say that someone who is not baptized and/or rejects the Real Presence is not in union with the Church and so communion is meaningless.
Actually, AB, us humble Anglicans hold to an understanding whereby the terms transubstantiation and Real Presence are not the one and the same, though linked.
Transubstantiation is the teaching that during the Mass,the elements of the Eucharist, bread and wine, are transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus and that they are no longer bread and wine, but only retain their appearance of bread and wine.
Real Presence, on the other hand, is the teaching that at the time of consecration the bread and wine, while maintaing their original form, now contain the reality of Christ's mystical presence.
As an Anglican I have been invited by the local priest to participate in Catholic Masses (even to help leading parts) on the grounds that I was baptized, and held to the doctrine of the Real Presence as defined above. There was no mention of anything that resembeled requirement to hold to trans- or consubstantiation.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
I don't really understand all of this concern about kneeling. If you don't want to kneel, don't kneel. If you can't kneel, by all means don't. Lots of people can't kneel, whether because of age or infirmity, and no one I know cares. No one is walking around forcing you.
To make this into something about 'forcing' someone really is just muddying the waters.
I would say that, while no one forces you to kneel, it can actually cause some awkwardness when one person kneels and another person doesn't.
For instance, if you like to kneel and the person sitting in front of you does not, the kneeling party ends up invading the non-kneeling party's personal space. I don't like making others feel as if I am attempting to whisper things in their ears.
Or, if you like to kneel and the person behind you does not, and if (like me) you happen to have long legs, you end up kicking their kneeler down any time you kneel. Less invasive than the first circumstance, but still imposing on someone's space.
I generally kneel where appropriate, but I can see how someone not used to kneeling would actually feel physical awkwardness when the people around them were kneeling.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
As an Anglican I have been invited by the local priest to participate in Catholic Masses (even to help leading parts) on the grounds that I was baptized, and held to the doctrine of the Real Presence as defined above. There was no mention of anything that resembeled requirement to hold to trans- or consubstantiation.
Then the priest was lying to you, was acting outside hos authority or was ignorant. I hope it made you feel better and I hope the priest was just poorly educated but don't kid yourself that the act was a travesty and a scandal.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
[Missed edit window due to Pol Roger '82]...not...[/missed edit window]
BTW, EL, the genitive of liturgia is liturgiae.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Redunderthebed, your opening post on this thread is purely Protestant, and will ring true in the hearts of many, but not all, of the Protestants here.
One of the major issues in the Reformation era was church order--or even more simply, how the teachings of the church are rightly passed on, and how the means of grace are rightly transmitted.
Protestants and Catholics have come a long way in dialogue in the past forty years. We have a very common understanding of Holy Baptism, and in many cases a Protestant baptism would be recognized by Roman Catholic authority. This comes up all the time with not just conversions, but also weddings. Baptism is very important, and yet it can be done by anybody, priest or not.
Hopefully we will be led to come even closer in understanding of the sacraments in the decades to come.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by redunderthebed:
How you can only recieve communion if you are confirmed in the church that doesn't sit well with me. I think that should be a thing that all who attend should partake in it.
Of course this isn't just a Catholic thing - there are Baptists with "closed Communion" as well (tho' they do Believers' Baptism/Church Membership rather than Confirmation). The ecclesiology behind this is very different to the RC line though - all about personal decisions of faith and being part of a "Covenanted Community" of believers.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Please be aware of the Dead Horse boundaries, e.g. the closed vs. open communion table debate belongs on the Dead Horses board.
Thankyou,
Doublethink
Purgatory
*cough*
Doublethink
Purgatory HOst
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Interesting about kneeling. I hear commonly the words to the effect: please stand, sit or kneel as you are able [or need]; please assume a posture appropriate for you. I've heard this formula across denominations which have kneeling benches in the pews.
It seems to me that some items within a mass/church service/whatchmacallit are overemphasized and reifed as something in and of themselves, when they originally were only mechanisms to help the people go along, understand, feel included, be moved in positive directions, and otherwise participate. I suppose kneeling or any other postural practice can be an object of appropriate or inappropriate reverence. Hocus Pocus comes to mind also.
I can actually tell if it is a Roman mass only by a few wordings here and there. Otherwise, it could easily be Anglican or Lutheran.
This also leads me to wonder about the perception of the Roman church in different places. Roman Catholic being just another denomination along side Lutheran, Anglican, Mennonite, Orthodox, Doukabour, Hutterite, Baptist etc. Here, in western Canada, it clearly is one among many in the minds of most people, with ideas we hear about "mother church" seeming to be rather alien, and perhaps about something ecumenical rather than the Roman version of church.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
Actually, AB, us humble Anglicans hold to an understanding whereby the terms transubstantiation and Real Presence are not the one and the same, though linked. Transubstantiation is the teaching that during the Mass,the elements of the Eucharist, bread and wine, are transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus and that they are no longer bread and wine, but only retain their appearance of bread and wine. Real Presence, on the other hand, is the teaching that at the time of consecration the bread and wine, while maintaing their original form, now contain the reality of Christ's mystical presence.
Best I can tell, you just said the same thing twice, merely in slightly different words. I'm serious, I do not see the difference that you apparently tried to indicate there. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
We have a very common understanding of Holy Baptism, and in many cases a Protestant baptism would be recognized by Roman Catholic authority.
Uhh, what? That the baptism of heretics is valid if performed in the right manner and with right intention was famously defended by Pope St Stephen I against St Cyprian of Carthage in 256 AD in the Novatian rebaptism controversy; and the pope then stated "If any one, therefore, come to you from any heresy whatever, let nothing be innovated (or done) which has not been handed down, to wit, that hands be imposed on him for repentance; since the heretics themselves, in their own proper character, do not baptize such as come to them from one another, but only admit them to communion.". Thus the pope defended the validity of the baptism of heretics, and even their baptismal practice, against one of the most influential figures of the Church back then, St Cyprian (who was sometimes called the "African pope"). The latest date one can set for the universal acceptance of this Roman judgement is the Collation of 411 AD, where St Augustine defeated the remaining Donatists in a public debate over the issue. Ever since there has been no doubt about the general validity of heretic baptisms in the RCC, in the slightest. The Council of Trent, hardly known for pulling any punches concerning Protestants, declared: "CANON IV. - If any one saith, that the baptism which is even given by heretics in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, with the intention of doing what the Church doth, is not true baptism; let him be anathema." Those who doubt the validity of the "normal" Protestant baptism (i.e., what you find among most Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans, ...) are literally cast out from the RCC there. This has been the consistent teaching of the RCC for at least 1,500 years, and has been infallibly set into stone as Catholic dogma for almost 500 years. I think we can consider this as a long settled issue...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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redunderthebed
Apprentice
# 17480
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Posted
Cheers guys your posts have being very informative. Its good to discover other christian traditions i would be fascinated to attend an orthodox service but i think the language barrier would be a problem.
Posts: 24 | From: Port Lincoln | Registered: Dec 2012
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