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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: What turns people off about church?
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
there's an unwillingness to address issues because there is a disastrous idea out there that 'love' means 'all is sweetness and light'. Therefore instead of talking about the issues such as 'Is the choir there as a social occasion or a quality musical production' - or even more catastrophically 'Old Smith who is a totally unwelcoming but has been doing sidesman duty for 30 years without anyone suggesting someone else might be better ...
Maybe all we need is creative thinking? Not, "Ms Jones, you can't sing a note in tune, leave the choir; Old Smith, you are dismissed from your post, we're better off with no one"; but find a positive role for each person that is a genuine role and uses their real and present talents?
It's hard, requires getting to know someone. Also there's a problem when where their talents lie is someone else's exclusive turf.
Absolutely; in terms of providing what the people are looking for - opportunities to be of service where their talents will be relevant, and where they will receive the friendship that develops as a result of doing something well together. But the pseudo-relationships that are maintained because it's the polite thing to do, but that are papering over deep frustrations and have zero depth to them, those are a reason why people are turned off church.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Doesn't this boil down to the matter of encouraging people to do what God's calling them to do in service at any one time, and using discernment, rather than simply filling in whichever gaps there are in church administration with whoever is willing?
And yet, if I dare to mention calling I'm usually given old fashioned looks.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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gorpo
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# 17025
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Posted
There´s one thing that the Church could do that would stop putting people off. Get rid of christianity and the whole Gospel thing. Things that Jesus said and did put a lot of people off, if you go by the gospels accounts. His message was never supposed to please everyone. One church whose main goal is to please everyone and be nice just cannot carry on pretending it has something to do with Jesus´ message.
The fact that Christians became a minority is not a problem. It was always supposed to be that way. Christians only became a majority in nations the population has been forced to convert at some point in history. No nation has been come a "christian nation" trough free choice of its people.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Ender's Shadow, you raise some good points. And I like the definition of 'church pillar'! I agree with a lot of what you say.
The kind of examples you give are often the things that people chat about informally, but don't address in a meeting or discussion. It's hard because apart from stipendiaries, everyone's a volunteer; and if grumpy George at the door has volunteered to 'welcome' people and hand out the hymn-books it's not always possible to point him discreetly to a ministry of money-counting in the vestry!
A church community has so many directions to it in terms of its organization: getting the right people in the right jobs, enduring with those who aren't; but as you rightly say knowing those times when something needs to be done about that.
It's so hard to do all that charitably!
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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mstevens
Apprentice
# 15437
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Posted
Further thought - talking about helping the poor, being good to the less fortunate, service, etc, is much less convincing when you're in a nice building wearing nice clothes and arrived in a nice car.
Posts: 44 | From: London,UK | Registered: Jan 2010
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mstevens:
Further thought - talking about helping the poor, being good to the less fortunate, service, etc, is much less convincing when you're in a nice building wearing nice clothes and arrived in a nice car.
Doesn't that depend on the context?
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Today at our Blatently Child Orientated Service, one lovely father was turned Right Off church by the insistant and non too quiet 'shushing' and telling offs that his young child received.
The outraged and indignent person getting the knickers twisted is an elderly soul whose hearing is not what it once was. Maybe this person could sit somewhere nearer the front? Y'know, could hear better there? Wouldn't be distracted by the odd child taken to the back at fraught times?
No.
Outraged and Indignant Person likes to sit at the back.
If this father EVER returns again, it will be a miracle. The last family to be treated this way left it two whole years before trying again.
I could weep.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Today at our Blatently Child Orientated Service, one lovely father was turned Right Off church by the insistant and non too quiet 'shushing' and telling offs that his young child received.
I have recently heard various clergy respond to child noise with an immediate (mid-sermon, or right after the current prayer and before the next one), announcement "we love babies, we don't mind their noises, we are delighted you are here." I suspect (hope) this silences congregation members who might otherwise glare at or complain to the parents of the "offending" child.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Today at our Blatently Child Orientated Service, one lovely father was turned Right Off church by the insistant and non too quiet 'shushing' and telling offs that his young child received.
I have recently heard various clergy respond to child noise with an immediate (mid-sermon, or right after the current prayer and before the next one), announcement "we love babies, we don't mind their noises, we are delighted you are here." I suspect (hope) this silences congregation members who might otherwise glare at or complain to the parents of the "offending" child.
The alternative view is expressed by the following parable:
'A woman is the subject of a very serious operation; about half way through the operation, just as the surgeon is getting to the critical moment, the doors of the operating theatre swing open and everyone's attention is distracted by the woman's child coming in and demanding attention. By the time concentration has been restored, the opportunity for healing has passed'.
This, of course, is taking a very high view of the role of the sermon, and the prospect of God being frustrated by such things. But it highlights the issue of what the sermon is for; to the extent that it is a serious effort to learn more about God, then allowing children to distract from this process is unreasonable. If you were a student, would you be happy for your lectures to be disrupted by children in the class? If not, why should the teaching of God's word be any less sacrosanct?
In the specific case EA offers, again we have a failure of real communication, and a wimping out of responsibility by the leader of the congregation; both sides should know what is expected, and conform to those. And it is for EA to raise the issue with that leader; if they won't do something about it, then it's clearly time to leave the church. For me the perfect solution is the side aisle that is separated from the rest of the church by a glass wall with a loudspeaker system ensuring that the children's side can hear the sermon as well.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What turns ME off.
Having swathes of Daniel being read.
The poor being excluded: I mean the door being locked during the service. Some of my marginal friends might want to sit in the lounge and have a cup of tea! Dreadful people.
The nauseating me, me, me, ME, ME hymns.
The poor being oppressed: a homeless Solomon Islander with mental health issues who sat quietly at the back ON THE FLOOR!!!! He HAD to be moved. For Health and Safety reasons of course. I wonder what we'd do if Jesus came and did that?
The elephant in the room of damnationism. My beloved vicar, my brother, actually starting out down the path of inclusion and then pulling back.
The excellent assistant vicar, extroverted, warm, great, real. Playing the mind game of "Who's been healed? Stand up.", "Who knows somebody who's been healed? Stand up." etc, etc until I was the only person out of 500 still sitting down.
Even though of course I've been healed.
Childish, un join ed up 'theology'. As epitomized by the aforementioned who covers everyone on Earth who isn't 'saved' by "We don't know what happens on their death bed.". My dad drowned choking on his own serum from burns. No conversion there.
Ah well, off we go to the evening service.
[ 23. December 2012, 16:46: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
A sign on the door of our neighbour church which has become quite celebrated locally!
Hmm - let's bring back the Latin mass then; at some point it becomes pointless to have a service in English if the children are so disruptive as to render its content incomprehensible. If there is no other service in this church except one where this policy is in place, then the Papist opponents of the mass in the vernacular have indeed won the day ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
2. A sign on the door of our neighbour church which has become quite celebrated locally!
rather spoilt by the notice to its right.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
....For me the perfect solution is the side aisle that is separated from the rest of the church by a glass wall with a loudspeaker system ensuring that the children's side can hear the sermon as well.
Gosh, I was with you right up until you said the children would be the ones put behind the glass wall.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Perhaps we're looking at this from the wrong end - maybe it's more productive to look at what DOES attract people to churches and see how that can be incorporated in some way into the regular worshipping life of the church.
When we hold a Christmas Tree Festival, people flock to the church in their thousands. Now, how to build on that interest and take it forward? Any ideas?
I'd imagine that when people attend church in their droves for things like Christingle services or Christmas carol services, a vast majority are no more than cultural Christians, and many are outright agnostics or atheists. What draws them? At Christmas at least, I believe it's to gain a warm, fuzzy feeling of community and comfort. Take a look at Christmas cards: all those snowy village scenes with the quaint old church lit up like a glowing heart. People want that sense of belonging to something that's considered to be good and pure, but without all the other less attractive trappings of Christianity. By attending only at these special services they can avoid those but still go home with a rosy glow.
Posts: 147 | From: Ingerland | Registered: Aug 2010
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
2. A sign on the door of our neighbour church which has become quite celebrated locally!
rather spoilt by the notice to its right.
Indeed, but I couldn't remove it (nor, as a Baptist, do I undrstand it!)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mstevens
Apprentice
# 15437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by mstevens:
Further thought - talking about helping the poor, being good to the less fortunate, service, etc, is much less convincing when you're in a nice building wearing nice clothes and arrived in a nice car.
Doesn't that depend on the context?
Yes the details can matter, the problem is advocating one lifestyle while appearing to live another can easily make you look quite hypocritical.
Posts: 44 | From: London,UK | Registered: Jan 2010
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amika:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
what DOES attract people to churches and see how that can be incorporated in some way into the regular worshipping life of the church.
When we hold a Christmas Tree Festival, people flock to the church in their thousands. Now, how to build on that interest and take it forward?
I'd imagine that when people attend church in their droves for things like Christingle services or Christmas carol services... What draws them? At Christmas at least, I believe it's to gain a warm, fuzzy feeling of community and comfort.
Which raises the question -- are community and comfort legitimate to look for in a church, and if so how can churches convey community and comfort during the rest of the year, along with learning how to become community and comfort for others?
Or if community and comfort are not legitimate aspects of a church experience, are we doing Christmas wrong that it attracts people who think that's what they'll get a taste of?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Today at our Blatently Child Orientated Service, one lovely father was turned Right Off church by the insistant and non too quiet 'shushing' and telling offs that his young child received.
I have recently heard various clergy respond to child noise with an immediate (mid-sermon, or right after the current prayer and before the next one), announcement "we love babies, we don't mind their noises, we are delighted you are here."
...sermon... is a serious effort to learn more about God, then allowing children to distract from this process is unreasonable. If you were a student, would you be happy for your lectures to be disrupted by children in the class? If not, why should the teaching of God's word be any less sacrosanct?
If a child is a distraction so is a cough or sneeze, maybe all people should be banned from church?
I've never been so distracted by a child's wimpering, or whispering of the people in the pew near me, or a coughing or sneezing, that I can't hear the teacher or the sermon. School classes often have more distractions that that going on -- fan noises, traffic outside the window, laughter from the classroom through the walls.
A screaming child should be taken out of the room for everyone's benefit including the unhappy child's. But a bit of wiggling, wimpering -- so what. Today a young child was quietly apparently reciting something through the first third of the sermon, but the preacher had a mic, there was no chance of her words being drowned out by one quietly chanting child.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Re the Christingle services etc. Around my city I'm ecstatic that FINALLY a few churches seem to be realising that it's not a sin to provide Christian hospitality and a sense of community and focus for people who may never be pew sitters. A Pressie church near me put on a Christmas fair-all entirely free for the community, there were camel rides and craft activities, showbags, coffee, ice-creams all free. That was a fantastic witness to the community and so many locals remarked on the generosity they were surprised that the church was giving things rather than asking for something. This church is a fairly small suburban church, not a megachurch by any means so its generosity is all the more impressive.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
i'd go with the option from chesterfield myself....but the Gospels lead me to presume this might not be a rational option.
(to clarify, it was the End of the service...the END...not a vital key moment.
To clarify further: anyone who can't hear can always sit at the front.
+ i have utter confidence in our Vicar to sort matters out, just not mid rousing hymn)
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
....For me the perfect solution is the side aisle that is separated from the rest of the church by a glass wall with a loudspeaker system ensuring that the children's side can hear the sermon as well.
Gosh, I was with you right up until you said the children would be the ones put behind the glass wall.
Rats - I meant to leave it ambiguous... ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I will admit, as someone who is childfree by choice and also has sensory issues, I do find the noise of small children VERY distracting and sometimes physically uncomfortable. But old people whispering and gossiping is just as distracting! I'm at church for what, an hour and a half once a week, you just deal with it.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:
Just to clarify, I'm not interested in discussing things like the (alleged) increasing secularization of society, Dawkins, etc, here. I'm asking what so many churches seem to be doing that keeps people away from them.
Recently I read an article in The Lutheran (available only to subscribers, so I can't post a link) in which a Texas pastor said that the biggest reason for non-church attendance is the people in the churches. He goes on to list many un-Christian behaviors that, many unchurched folks tell him, keep people away. "Church" people, it seemed, were not behaving in a very Christian manner, and visitors picked that up.
So, what do you think? What, if anything, are the churches doing that so turns people off?
[title formatting]
Loads of things, I'm sure. While not ignoring these internal problems - whatever they may be - I don't think we should diminish the impact that secularisation, Dawkins, etc, is having on the public perception at large. From the earliest times the church has been full of arseholes who have behaved in ways that run contrary to the tenets of Christianity. I'm one of them. However, it now seems that people are less inclined to put up with religion in general, and any hint of hypocrisy confirms their worst fears. Besides, if Christianity is true then it will always be at odds with society in any number of ways and that makes it inherently offensive to some.
[Off topic]
Perhaps it my own personal bias, but it seems to me that the reporting of matters religious often runs from shallow to negative. I occasionally read the Get Religion blog to get a different take on religious reporting in the press.
Posts: 1124 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: Dec 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I will admit, as someone who is childfree by choice and also has sensory issues, I do find the noise of small children VERY distracting and sometimes physically uncomfortable. But old people whispering and gossiping is just as distracting! I'm at church for what, an hour and a half once a week, you just deal with it.
As a parent (25 + years ago now) and a grandparent, there's nothing more off putting to children than being glared at for being children. Yes I now there's degrees of beig children and they can all be noisy etc but it needs a bit of give and take. After all, everyone else with traits of bad behaviour expects us to accommodate them - and usually get their way. Why be different with children?
When looking for a "new" church when I moved, on at least one occasion I haven't gone back to a church because of the looks I received at my 3 young children who were used to church and well behaved.
You could always put up a sign saying children are not welcome unless they are quiet and well behaved (who determoines what this is?). Wait, most churches don't need to - their attitudes and practices say that already.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I will admit, as someone who is childfree by choice and also has sensory issues, I do find the noise of small children VERY distracting and sometimes physically uncomfortable. But old people whispering and gossiping is just as distracting! I'm at church for what, an hour and a half once a week, you just deal with it.
As a parent (25 + years ago now) and a grandparent, there's nothing more off putting to children than being glared at for being children. Yes I now there's degrees of beig children and they can all be noisy etc but it needs a bit of give and take. After all, everyone else with traits of bad behaviour expects us to accommodate them - and usually get their way. Why be different with children?
When looking for a "new" church when I moved, on at least one occasion I haven't gone back to a church because of the looks I received at my 3 young children who were used to church and well behaved.
You could always put up a sign saying children are not welcome unless they are quiet and well behaved (who determoines what this is?). Wait, most churches don't need to - their attitudes and practices say that already.
Like I said, I just deal with it (not sure why you're saying this to me?). Like I also said, I have sensory issues (which I cannot help) that mean the kind of high-pitched noises children make trigger physically uncomfortable feelings for me - nails on a chalkboard type feelings. I don't glare at children or criticize them and nowhere in my post did I say I do.
Of course on the other hand, what parents perceive as their little darlings 'behaving' might not be what other people see as 'behaving'. Parents are obviously going to be biased towards their own children.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
This is one thing I've always liked about Catholic churches, although maybe they are not all the same. I sometimes go to one close by, partly cos the music is nice, but there is a huge din from kids, yelling, playing with their toys, and so on, so much so, that at times, you can't hear the homily. But on the other hand, I like it. It's alive. It's life. For people to be shushing kids is really weird, for me at any rate. Let's have a funereal silence, so I can think in private, and not have these messy kids messing up my life.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
This is one thing I've always liked about Catholic churches, although maybe they are not all the same. I sometimes go to one close by, partly cos the music is nice, but there is a huge din from kids, yelling, playing with their toys, and so on, so much so, that at times, you can't hear the homily. But on the other hand, I like it. It's alive. It's life. For people to be shushing kids is really weird, for me at any rate. Let's have a funereal silence, so I can think in private, and not have these messy kids messing up my life.
I don't mind kids being kids, but yelling? There's such a thing as using indoor voices, and church is an appropriate place to use them. Kids can play without yelling. And no one is suggesting total silence (unless they're Quakers), just a bit of respect for the fact that it's church, not a playground. Surely places can be alive without shouting etc?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
When looking for a "new" church when I moved, on at least one occasion I haven't gone back to a church because of the looks I received at my 3 young children who were used to church and well behaved.
A point you didn't make clear was whether there was alternative provision for the children that you were declining to use. If there is such provision, then it is reasonable to expect parents to make use of it, so their children disrupting the usual experience of church is unfair. If not, then it's very different discussion.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
I feel an irregular verb coming on:
My child make a joyful noise unto the Lord
Your children are a bit noisy
Their children are horribly disruptive ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Hezekiah:
Guitars
Yep. And drums--and shitty music played shittily in general.
K.
Hey, now! I'm a drummer and that remark wounds me deeply! I demand a duel, at dawn! LOL. No, but I understand what you mean. If I never see or hear another "praise band" in my lifetime, it will be a true blessing. Praise bands are all the rage around here and ugh... I just hate them. Besides which, the drums are usually way too loud.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
I agree with Jade Constable. Church is not the "venue" for children to yell and play with their toys! When I was a child and had to endure a long Mass, I would count hats or count the tiles on the floor or just doze quietly. At no point in a service would I ever have even thought to yell, run around or play with toys. I didn't have any toys in my pockets and my mother would never have let me bring any toys to church. Children need to be taught that church is not a place to play. Yeah, church can be a crippling bore sometimes (even as an adult, I think this!)but the service is not meant to entertain us like reading a magazine, watching t.v. or playing around on the computer. I cringe at the idea that some people think it's perfectly okay to let their children run up and down the aisles during a church service.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, I don't agree! Shocking, isn't it? I like to see kids in church being kids, I don't mind them playing with their toys, and I don't mind a bit of yelling.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
EthneAlba: quote:
Today at our Blatently Child Orientated Service, one lovely father was turned Right Off church by the insistant and non too quiet 'shushing' and telling offs that his young child received."
What shocks me most about this is that anyone would correct children, about anything, while they're with a parent. That's just awful manners. Then there's the linked to article where someone seems surprised that the shushor is the parent. Hello? Isn't that the parent's job?
Every Sunday I sit behind a young mother and her two year-old. It wouldn't be church for me without my Tommy fix. The very sight of him softens my hard heart. He plays quietly in the pew with little toys and crayons, only occasionally forgetting himself enough to make a loud noise, at which point his mother either quietly shushes him or whispers something in his ear about pleasures to come. One Sunday the magic word was "Camping!" which was so exciting he repeated it at a shout which made me laugh and I had to shush myself.
My point is that there is a fairly easy balance that this young mother has found where the children don't have to sit like statues but aren't allowed to turn the atmosphere of quiet reverence into a noisy playground. The minister and choir deserve a little respect for their efforts too and we are there to worship and learn, I guess, not just to be there as though that's the entire goal.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye, suffer, little children who come unto me ...
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
I agree with Jade Constable. Church is not the "venue" for children to yell and play with their toys! When I was a child and had to endure a long Mass, I would count hats or count the tiles on the floor or just doze quietly. At no point in a service would I ever have even thought to yell, run around or play with toys. I didn't have any toys in my pockets and my mother would never have let me bring any toys to church. Children need to be taught that church is not a place to play. Yeah, church can be a crippling bore sometimes (even as an adult, I think this!)but the service is not meant to entertain us like reading a magazine, watching t.v. or playing around on the computer. I cringe at the idea that some people think it's perfectly okay to let their children run up and down the aisles during a church service.
Not every child is the veritable angel with endless internal resources to get through the boring bits that you clearly were.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Jenn.
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# 5239
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Posted
Alternative provision for kids is great, but it isn't appropriate for all children or families. While attending a new church my son decided he wouldn't go in the creche because of the strange new people and crowds and noise. So we stayed in the foyer with a few toys and some colouring. Other parents joined us as it meant they still were part of the church service rather than in another room and unable to take part. There was probably some noise drifting into the church but it was that or go home. Most parents are very aware of the noise their children are making and normally do what they can to reduce it - assuming the worst of us will not encourage us to remain in the church.
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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Stejjie
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# 13941
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Posted
On the children issue:
1) To those assuming that parents always assume their children are the best behaved ones - not necessarily. I'm sure that for as many parents who are convinced their children never make a noise, there are as many parents (like me and Mrs Stejjie) who go through most services assuming everyone's really, really cross with our children for being wild, feral children and us for being the worst parents in the world. You don't know how much of a relief it is to be told "Your children were so good today", particular when you're convinced they've been awful.
(Oh, and our youngest, who's only 2 today, observed the 2 minutes' silence on Remembrance Sunday impeccably - perhaps better than some of the others there. [/daddy boast]).
2) More widely (and perhaps ultra-obviously), this seems to be one of those areas where it's impossible to generalise what will and won't drive people away. For some, the notice that Baptist Trainfan linked to will be a godsend; for others it will be the thing that convinces them to go to try somewhere else.
Neither of which are necessarily wrong reactions; in fact deciding you don't want to go to a church precisely because children are allowed to yell and scream and you know that would be a distraction or worse seems to me a move of great integrity.
Perhaps what churches need to do is work out amongst themselves what policy/attitude/whatever the right word is towards children's behaviour they want to adopt, taking into account the needs of the congregation, the style of worship, the image they want to project etc. And then make that clear, so that parents aren't in any doubt as to what to expect.
(There would, of course, be an onus on the congregation to live with that once it had been agreed and not to start shushing if it had been decided not to. Conversely, if a church decided it wanted to maintain a quiet and reverential atmosphere and that children shouting weren't conducive to that, then the onus may well fall on leaders to ensure that that was communicated and "enforced".
All this is, of course, much easier if your church is congregational in polity... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) )
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
All this is, of course, much easier if your church is congregational in polity... )
Don't you believe it.
Congregation = 100.
Different opinions = 150.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Stejjie
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# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
All this is, of course, much easier if your church is congregational in polity... )
Don't you believe it.
Congregation = 100.
Different opinions = 150.
I know - although from my limited ministerial experience so far, it's the same number of opinions even amongst a congregation of only 30-odd...
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
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glockenspiel
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# 13645
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Posted
Does any church actually care about any of these (very good) points given on this thread so far? I don't recall ever seeing a Suggestions Box at the back of a church. Not once.
Posts: 1258 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Apr 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
We've got one (well, it's at the entrance to the Church Hall). But it doesn't get used much, and then most of the suggestions are rather silly.
[ 24. December 2012, 16:59: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Aye, suffer, little children who come unto me ...
Ah yes, learning to keep ones voice down to a low hum while coloring, for one whole hour a week, is surely "suffering." Right up there with child labor and caning.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
When looking for a "new" church when I moved, on at least one occasion I haven't gone back to a church because of the looks I received at my 3 young children who were used to church and well behaved.
A point you didn't make clear was whether there was alternative provision for the children that you were declining to use. If there is such provision, then it is reasonable to expect parents to make use of it, so their children disrupting the usual experience of church is unfair. If not, then it's very different discussion.
There was no alternative provision probably because there were very few children. It soon became clear why that was.
Clearly one couple at least were embarassed by the response we'd received as they came round our house to apologise. Nice but rather futile given the nature of the response from the Minister as well as the comngregation.
We were actually at the service with Mrs Mark's parents who were visiting. At lunch, after the service, they indicated that they'd not recommend that church based on the (lack of) welcome we'd got.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Jon in the Nati
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# 15849
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Posted
quote:
Does any church actually care about any of these (very good) points given on this thread so far? I don't recall ever seeing a Suggestions Box at the back of a church. Not once.
Then speak to the pastor about it. Do you have a voice? Surely you know how to use it.
Most of us do give a damn. We can't change issues about communion, such as who can have it (baptized Christians) and how often its done (every day and sometimes twice) but we can speak to people about issues with kids. On the other hand, maybe we'll just tell you to get over it.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
All this is, of course, much easier if your church is congregational in polity... )
Don't you believe it.
Congregation = 100.
Different opinions = 150.
That few? More like 1500 IME
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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glockenspiel
Shipmate
# 13645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
quote:
Does any church actually care about any of these (very good) points given on this thread so far? I don't recall ever seeing a Suggestions Box at the back of a church. Not once.
Then speak to the pastor about it. Do you have a voice? Surely you know how to use it.
Most of us do give a damn. We can't change issues about communion, such as who can have it (baptized Christians) and how often its done (every day and sometimes twice) but we can speak to people about issues with kids. On the other hand, maybe we'll just tell you to get over it.
Who's the 'us'??
Posts: 1258 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Apr 2008
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