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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Watch your language?
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Dave W, I think you meant to refer to the Pitjantjatjara peoples.
No, I was referring to a word transcribed from the audio track of a movie; possibly Paul Hogan's character was referring to "the Pitjantjatjara peoples" - or possibly he would have followed the usage of Tania Major (Young Australian of the Year 2007!) and transcribed it as "Pintinjarra"...
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
While the Crocodile Dundee incident is fiction, it's a reasonable depiction of cross-cultural misunderstanding. For Dundee, a black person would have been an indigenous Australian, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask about their cultural origins. "Tribes" wouldn't be a preferred term, with clan, language group, people and nation being suitable terms, but the depiction of Dundee's usage would be accurate.
The doorman's unoffended response is rather far-fetched, unless the film's aim was to show him as having a good understanding of indigenous Australian issues. If that had been the case, I don't think he would have been opening doors for people.
IIRC the movie:
Dundee asks the doorman what tribe he's from, at the hotel door. The doorman is a bit disturbed, confused, and disgusted. I think he says, "I'm from HARLEM, man!"
But, later, when the doorman has gotten to know Mick Dundee better and like him, he uses street-fighting skills to help Mick. IIRC, Mick says something like, "where did you learn to fight like that?" The doorman says, with a big grin, "Harlem Warlords, baby!" (IE, a street gang by that name.) Mick replies, "I KNEW you were a tribal gent!", or something to that effect.
Mick was very unfamiliar with modern culture, technology, and facilities. Back in Oz, he lived in the Outback, and had been to a city only once. I think he'd only seen TV once. So everything was strange to him, and the film plays with that. (Like the scene when he's trying to figure out what a bidet is...)
Plus Mick is more or less part of an aboriginal tribe, back home. So that's the way he thinks--people are affiliated with a tribe.
FWIW.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Dave W, I think you meant to refer to the Pitjantjatjara peoples.
No, I was referring to a word transcribed from the audio track of a movie; possibly Paul Hogan's character was referring to "the Pitjantjatjara peoples" - or possibly he would have followed the usage of Tania Major (Young Australian of the Year 2007!) and transcribed it as "Pintinjarra"...
"Pintinjarra" is indeed a rough transcription of how most ignorant white people would pronounce the name of the Pitjantjatjara people. It's still not correct even if intended as a guide to pronunciation.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
I've always found it a bit hard to fathom why anyone would want to "rescue" these words and make them more generally acceptable. You can accuse me of being "politically correct" if you wish, but there really isn't anything political about it--it's simple good manners. "Politically incorrect" is usually just a term to justify rudeness.
However, if I can have apple pie for breakfast every morning you are more than welcome to call me a Yankee.
I think there is enormous power in people who are labelled with derogatory terms, claiming the words and redefining them. This has happened in Australia with the term "wog" which would never have been uttered in polite society 30 years ago but an assortment of Australian people with Mediterranean ancestry claimed the term and used it in jocular fashion, celebrating aspects of their heritage, laughing at themselves and also at Anglo and others' reactions to them and the term has completely lost its power to hurt. An enormously popular stage show in Sydney was called "Wogs out of Work "and it was written and produced by people who identified as wogs. People often say "I'm a wog......" If used by certain people in certain contexts then it's still a racist term but the word no longer has any power and I think that's a good thing.
quote:
STM, the term negro was often used in a racist fashion. An illustration circa 1650. Four men are disembarking a ship; an observer writes there were an Englishman, a Frenchman, a Spaniard and a negro. The very fact that colour was considered the defining feature is in itself racist.
I understand that other races/nationalities apply similar generalisations. I'm not saying that this justifies the use of racial descriptors, just noting that it's not only a characteristic of "white culture".
I am given to understand that in China Europeans are still referred to as "white ghosts" or "white devils" and no distinction is made between, say English people, Greeks or Italians, they're all just white ghosts whilst a Chinese person is just a person. A number of Chinese friends have told me there is no word for white person in Chinese that isn't derogatory. In a similar fashion there are parts of Africa where all "foreigners" are referred to simply as white people. A Sri Lankan friend of mine said she used to hear whispered "white person" wherever she went in this village where her father was a teacher, she thought it was hilarious as her skin is certainly not white and she doesn't identify as white at all.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
During the fifties, and I think into the early sixties, there was a brand of licorice in Australia known as Nigger Boy.
It was common for a person of my parents' generation to refer casually to themself or someone else as "working like a nigger".
As recently as the eighties there was a brand of toothpaste sold in South-East Asia which featured a picture of a stereotypical "nigger minstrel" figure with huge, gleaming white teeth.
In the extremely ethnically diverse school in which I taught in India, some of the students from Malaysia used to use it without exciting any comment.
Song of Solomon 1:5 from the Vulgate: "Nigra sum, sed formosa".
On another area, "dago" has practically disappeared in Australia, but "wog" has become gentrified, up-market and acceptable - largely as a result of a generation of very funny comedians of Greek and Italian ancestry.
I have had at least one objection on the Ship to the use of "Scotchman", but as the late A.J.P. Taylor commented in his English History 1914-45, "Some inhabitants of Scotland now call themselves 'Scots' and their affairs 'Scottish'. They are entitled to do so. The English word for both is 'Scotch', just as we call les francais the French, and Deutschland Germany. Being English, I use it".
[ 01. January 2013, 05:39: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
Sorry Evangeline, I cross-posted with you on the Australian use of "wog".
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
No worries CK ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Re that toothpaste you mention, up until the 1990s, that brand was sold in Singapore under the name "Darkie", I remember being somewhat shocked by the name and image, when returning a few years later I noted that the packaging and image was the same but the name had been changed to "Darlie.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
There were also Nigger Boy steel wool pads, for pot scouring. When I was growing up in the 50s, there was always one of these in a dish on the windowsill above the kitchen sink. IIRC, that was changed to Bigger Boy.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
lilbhudda said: quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I also recall in the film 'Crocodile Dundee', Dundee asking the New York burly black doorman of the posh hotel he was staying at ''what tribe you from, mate? ''. Said in another context and with malice, that would earn a verbal reprimand at the very least, but Dundee is naive and the doorman understands, he replies with a world weary grin: ''I'm from the Harlem tribe.'' No offence meant and none given.
Saul
You do realize this was fiction?
No, it was a factual documentary on a backwoods Australian let loose in NYC ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
But the illustration , despite being fiction, does serve a purpose - context can be everything.
Casual racism was endemic in the Liverpool I was bought up in of the 1970s. It was quite common to call someone a ''black bastard''. Not nice, but ''acceptable'' to those who did it, unacceptable to those on the barbs of sharp vitriol.
Saul
[ 01. January 2013, 08:25: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Saul, Vulpior, people - what you've all apparently missed is the key point that Gus (the black character in question) is not a doorman, but a limo driver.
Why is that key, you ask? ... OK, I'm sure I heard someone ask! Because as a limo driver, he felt empowered to wrench the antenna off his vehicle and use it in support of Dundee - an antenna that was shaped like a boomerang! (Get it? Australia, boomerang?) It's this apparent facility with the iconic Australian aboriginal weapon which prompts Dundee to repeat his question to Gus about his possible Pintinjarra tribal affiliation. To which Gus now responds "No, man. Harlem Warlords." (Earlier in the movie, Gus's response to a similar question was brusque, bordering on offended [the exchange is roughly as Vulpior suggested would be likely] but by this point Dundee's Australian forthrightness and charm has won over the cynical New Yorker and they've become friends. Not close enough to win actor Reginald VelJohnson a spot in the two Crockodile Dundee sequels - but then that was probably for the best, as a much more prominent role in the Die Hard series beckoned...)
And Organ Builder - I can report that I have, in fact, on one occasion eaten apple pie for breakfast in a Vermont diner, but the waitress's reaction to my order seemed less one of recognition of my attempt at true Yankee-ness than of faint disbelief that anyone would want a piece of a pie that had likely been sitting out all night in a display case on the counter...
Dave W
I stand corrected - he IS a limo driver (not a doorman). Yes the cultural context and backgrounds are key, as Dundee is a naive back woods man, a noble (white) savage that relies on this persona throughout the film to make the film work.
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Also -- and I really will quit for a while after this -- I once printed "African American" in a newsletter article about a church member's late husband, who had been a Tuskegee Airman, and she called me up and chewed me out because, as she told me, she is not from Africa. Which was a complaint I really didn't see coming! But I thought she had a point. Nobody calls me a European American.
It's even weirder when you get called African American despite being not even slightly American. I took it as an indication that many people had learnt to say "African American" when they meant "Black", and so continued doing that even when it wasn't a great fit.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Kittyville
Shipmate
# 16106
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Posted
We also have a brand of cheese called Coon here, which was a bit of a shocker for this transplant from the UK.
Posts: 291 | From: Sydney | Registered: Dec 2010
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Also -- and I really will quit for a while after this -- I once printed "African American" in a newsletter article about a church member's late husband, who had been a Tuskegee Airman, and she called me up and chewed me out because, as she told me, she is not from Africa.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It's even weirder when you get called African American despite being not even slightly American. I took it as an indication that many people had learnt to say "African American" when they meant "Black", and so continued doing that even when it wasn't a great fit.
I'll add that while it seems fair to laugh at someone for using the label "African American" for an African, it doesn't seem fair to get annoyed over the use of the term African American in a country where it is in widespread use, and commonly understood as the correct way to refer to an ethnicity.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Common understanding can be completely wrong. Which is why the show QI exists.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kittyville:
We also have a brand of cheese called Coon here, which was a bit of a shocker for this transplant from the UK.
The term "coon" was never a very common expression in Australia. Wikipedia is the easiest reference but I've read this explanation on cheese packets and heard it elsewhere as well, so I believe the manufacturers.
The cheese is said to be named after its American creator Edward W. Coon (1871–1934) of Philadelphia, who patented a method, subsequently known as the Cooning process, for fast maturation of cheese via high temperature and humidity.[1][2][3][4][5] Former manufacturer Kraft, and later Dairy Farmers and National Foods, have vigorously defended the trademark. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon_cheese
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Kittyville
Shipmate
# 16106
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Posted
Oh, not suggesting the manufacturer means anything by it, Evangeline - it's just a bit startling for someone who comes from a place where it is an extremely offensive term. Much as hearing "wog" was when I first got here - even knowing it means something different here and has even been reclaimed, as noted further up the thread.
Posts: 291 | From: Sydney | Registered: Dec 2010
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Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
quote:
Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
It's OK to call Scots "Jock" ...
Not really, no.
We'll stick to "Scot" then. Far more dignified in any case.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I recall doing a very big double-take when a poster on these boards, one of the nicest, politest, most charming people around here, mentioned that he owned a "coon gun". What is that used for, I thought. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Until I worked it out. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Shooting cheese at people?
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
The point is that people feel the need to note that the person in question has not got the same colour of skin as the speaker or the group, which implies some degree of separateness.
How often do you hear someone referred to as "white" or "flesh-coloured"? Yes, some cosmetics, even in Rihanna's line of cosmetics, are markerted as "flesh-coloured" for that vaguely pinkish tone that so many people (but not the majority!) regard as "normal"
If a word has been used to put certain people in their subservient or hated place, then one should avoid using it.
Unless one is consciously trying to be rude or denigrating, as mentioned upthread.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Have a look at this one about Michelle Obama
Sorry, weird spacing.
[ 01. January 2013, 12:00: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Just to widen the discussion a little, I was at the cinema the other day and a trailer came on for a film about an English football player who had transplanted to America to teach football to American kids there. At one point this man and a whole load of children called the opposing team "wankers".
I've noticed this recently. It appears to have been transplanted from the UK to the US, where it seems to be used as a mild term of abuse, like "losers" or "jerks".
Unfortunately when program's are broadcast over here in the UK with the phrase wanker in it, it retains its UK meaning, which is as a very strong expletive indicating someone who masturbates, usually only heard after the watershed in gritty drama's or by edgy comedians. It is not a word used in polite company and would almost certainly get someone sacked or given an official warning if they used it inappropriately at work for example. It is probably slightly more offensive than "shit" and slightly less than the f-word.
as we become more global, language becomes more important, otherwise we run the risk of causing offence where none is intended.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Have a look at this one about Michelle Obama
Sorry, weird spacing.
Rather fascinating website actually.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
quote:
Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
It's OK to call Scots "Jock" ...
Not really, no.
We'll stick to "Scot" then. Far more dignified in any case.
Thank you.
And as for this:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I have had at least one objection on the Ship to the use of "Scotchman", but as the late A.J.P. Taylor commented in his English History 1914-45, "Some inhabitants of Scotland now call themselves 'Scots' and their affairs 'Scottish'. They are entitled to do so. The English word for both is 'Scotch', just as we call les francais the French, and Deutschland Germany. Being English, I use it".
The late A.J.P. Taylor was clearly an ignorant and offensive man, and I hope you will not follow his example.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
The point is that people feel the need to note that the person in question has not got the same colour of skin as the speaker or the group, which implies some degree of separateness.
How often do you hear someone referred to as "white" or "flesh-coloured"? Yes, some cosmetics, even in Rihanna's line of cosmetics, are markerted as "flesh-coloured" for that vaguely pinkish tone that so many people (but not the majority!) regard as "normal"
If a word has been used to put certain people in their subservient or hated place, then one should avoid using it.
Unless one is consciously trying to be rude or denigrating, as mentioned upthread.
HB
at it's most simple level take first aid plasters, they are, as far as I can make out, all flesh coloured. If you are white of course.
Context is everything isn't it? Like the East End of London docker who kept talking about ''jew boys'' fairly loudly in a Doctor's surgery.
If a ''jew boy'' took offence and hit him, it would be slightly unfair on the Docker would it not, as in his day (he was an OAP ex docker so to speak) it was a lingua franca to refer to Jewish people like that?
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Common understanding can be completely wrong. Which is why the show QI exists.
Never seen the show, but of course that is true. Nevertheless it remains unfair to have a go at an individual for going with the consensus view - particularly when it is clear that that consensus is supported by a majority of African Americans.
Common understanding may be wrong, hence can say "we happen to feel that", but one ought not to "chew out" as if the individual concerned ought to know better.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Dave W, I think you meant to refer to the Pitjantjatjara peoples.
No, I was referring to a word transcribed from the audio track of a movie; possibly Paul Hogan's character was referring to "the Pitjantjatjara peoples" - or possibly he would have followed the usage of Tania Major (Young Australian of the Year 2007!) and transcribed it as "Pintinjarra"...
"Pintinjarra" is indeed a rough transcription of how most ignorant white people would pronounce the name of the Pitjantjatjara people. It's still not correct even if intended as a guide to pronunciation.
You didn't click on the link, did you?
I'm quite willing to admit my total ignorance of Aboriginal groupings, cultures, languages, and transliterations, but having found that spelling used by a prominent Aboriginal Australian, I think I can step back now and let you take it up with her (and maybe Paul Hogan.)
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
If I saw anyone with flesh the colour of that dress, I would think they were unwell.
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Reuben
Shipmate
# 11361
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Posted
Regarding Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities in Australia terms such as 'black' or 'native' are regarded as offensive. Apparently 'indigenous' is now also on the inappropriate list.
I actually appreciated the Aboriginal-owned newspaper Koori Mail's summary of what to call various people groups where they recommend that you try to be as specific as possible. They recommend the following hierarchy in descending order of preference:
•The person’s language group, e.g. Wiradjuri.
•The area the person comes from, e.g. Murri.
•Aboriginal if they come from mainland Australia, Torres Strait Islander if they are from Torres Strait.
•Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander (ATSI) to be generic.
This hierarchy demonstrates a preference for specific personal knowledge of an individual's background but also an acceptable 'escalation' process if less information is known.
Although in my early days in the workforce, I was still naive enough to ask a very fair skinned lady I worked with (who had identified herself as Aboriginal) just how Aboriginal she was? She sweetly said to me 'Oh that is such a white boy question.'
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"I got nothing." Barrie Unsworth
Posts: 227 | From: New South Wales | Registered: May 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Just to widen the discussion a little, I was at the cinema the other day and a trailer came on for a film about an English football player who had transplanted to America to teach football to American kids there. At one point this man and a whole load of children called the opposing team "wankers".
I've noticed this recently. It appears to have been transplanted from the UK to the US, where it seems to be used as a mild term of abuse, like "losers" or "jerks".
Unfortunately when program's are broadcast over here in the UK with the phrase wanker in it, it retains its UK meaning, which is as a very strong expletive indicating someone who masturbates, usually only heard after the watershed in gritty drama's or by edgy comedians. It is not a word used in polite company and would almost certainly get someone sacked or given an official warning if they used it inappropriately at work for example. It is probably slightly more offensive than "shit" and slightly less than the f-word.
as we become more global, language becomes more important, otherwise we run the risk of causing offence where none is intended.
Doesn't 'jerk' mean the same thing in North American?
Or does it lack the subtext that the person being called that is such a wasspot that their sex life is wholly solitary?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Is this a tangent? If so, please forgive. I'm often struck when watching Question Time (current affairs programme on UK TV, involving local audience and panel of politicians etc) how David Dimbleby struggles to describe those members of the public who want to contribute. He'll say things like 'the man in the blue shirt', or 'the woman with the large earrings' , but never, 'the black man on the back row' or 'the Asian lady'. It's obvious why, but it sometimes seems as if he's floundering to identify the person when the most obvious thing about them might be their skin colour.
I my last school, we had two teachers with the same surname and who taught the same subject. One was obese.
A girl at the staffroom door asked to see mr. X and was greeted with the response, 'Which one.'
She was flustered until the obese one shouted back, 'The fat one?'
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
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Posted
Our company college used to present certificates to leavers at break on Friday mornings. The atmosphere depended on who was doing the presenting - a favourite was the principal who thought himself quite good with names and never prepared.
This particular morning there were several Smiths called out in order of first name. Adrian Smith was OK and Justin Smith too but then came a Botswanan, I think, with a five syllable first starting "Omgl..." to which the principal said "Oh my God": a large black man got up saying "Near enough". On his way back he was distinctly hear to say "I'm the black Smith".
Collapse of ceremony.
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.. to utmost west.
Posts: 858 | From: Not England | Registered: Nov 2010
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Yes, "handicapped" is generally fine where I live -- you see the sign for a "handicapped parking space" everywhere. If you say "disabled people," sooner or later someone will object to identifying people entirely in terms of being disabled, saying they should literally be people first: "persons with disabilities."
I think the word "handicapped" became generally okay (though some do object to it as well) because of the signs, which have the effect of making it bland, of normalizing it. There are also the handicapped parking placards that entitle you to park in a handicapped space. If you don't have a placard and you park in a handicapped parking space, in my neighborhood someone is liable to comment that your only handicap is mental.
In the UK we do not say 'handicapped anymore'. We must say 'disabled people'.
Also, in the congregation I lead, I and everyone else, refers to the black people in our fellowship as 'Africans'. This is because they have all come from Africa and they are all asylum seekers, and they come from about 6 different countries from that continent and speak different languages.
If I, a French man, a German and an Italian all went to Zimbabwe, and we were all white, I would have no problem in us all being referred to collectively as 'Europeans'.
In the UK we are now afraid to say 'black' though I did have to tell off a (white) man who referred to them collectively as 'the blacks'. I informed him that they were not a rugby team.
[ 01. January 2013, 17:48: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
I have no problem with "black" as an adjective for a person, and hear it quite often. But I would also object to "the blacks" in most contexts.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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birdie
fowl
# 2173
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
.... its UK meaning, which is as a very strong expletive indicating someone who masturbates, usually only heard after the watershed in gritty drama's or by edgy comedians.
Really? I heard it - twice - on Radio 4 at about 6.50 this evening.
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"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness."
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Doesn't 'jerk' mean the same thing in North American?
Weirdly, it has pretty much the same subtext, but it's the word you would call an asshole if you were trying to be polite.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Doesn't 'jerk' mean the same thing in North American?
Oh, I never thought of that... ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Which might go to show that words used purely as pejoratives can eventually outgrow their original meaning. According to this the word originally meant someone tedious and ineffectual. I've generally understood it to mean someone small-minded, capricious, and mean.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Saul the Apostle
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# 13808
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Posted
It seems perfectly OK to talk about a black person in the UK.
Obviously this can't be used if one was wanting to insult the person, so you ''black.......'' whatever the following word is not acceptable. As I suppose the reverse, you ''white........'' ?
But I was surprised to read this about the South Africa of today where black women apparently bleach their skin.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-20444798
So perhaps for them their blackness is not so attractive then?
A tangent, but language can be a powerful instrument, of good or ill.
Recently here in the UK I have not heard much racial abuse as it seems to be unacceptable. And a good thing that is too.
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by birdie:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
.... its UK meaning, which is as a very strong expletive indicating someone who masturbates, usually only heard after the watershed in gritty drama's or by edgy comedians.
Really? I heard it - twice - on Radio 4 at about 6.50 this evening.
Really? I am surprised. I would be interested to find out if there are any complaints about it because I'm pretty sure that it would not be allowed on television at that times. I wonder if there are different rules for radio?
The program wasn't an American one being broadcast on R4 was it, which would be explained by my post above regarding the differences in the meaning of the word in use in the UK and the US.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Mudfrog: quote:
In the UK we do not say 'handicapped anymore'. We must say 'disabled people'.
Even here you have to take care. I support a charity called Dogs for the Disabled. They are considering changing their name, as "disabled" is felt to be offensive. If I understand correctly, it is all right to say that some has a handicap/disability, but not that they ARE handicapped or disabled. The latter could suggest that they are fully defined by one area of their life.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Also -- and I really will quit for a while after this -- I once printed "African American" in a newsletter article about a church member's late husband, who had been a Tuskegee Airman, and she called me up and chewed me out because, as she told me, she is not from Africa. Which was a complaint I really didn't see coming! But I thought she had a point. Nobody calls me a European American.
I do use "European-American" occasionally (and other hyphenations like Irish-American, Italian-American, Mexican-American are common enough). It's really more accurate than "Caucasian," which should be dumped--unless your recent ancestors actually came from Georgia (Republic of), Abkhazia, Chechnya, or thereabouts.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
In America I understand you are allowed to say people are retarded. in the UK you would be jumped on from a great height if you said someone with 'learning difficulties' was retarded!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
I don't know about the USA part of America but in Canada, you would never say "retarded". Not ever. An older person might struggle with finding another description since that might be the first thing that comes to mind, but they wouldn't say it outloud without saying, years ago we would have said retarded, or something like that.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Gwai
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# 11076
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Posted
I know a couple people who work with people with learning disabilities, and one of them has called me up on jokingly calling my phone retarded.* I said I'd never heard that used to refer to people, so to me it just meant an annoying thing. She said it was still a medical diagnosis for certain kinds of learning disabilities. (She also persuaded me that I really shouldn't use the word.) So in my experience, "retarded" is still regularly used as an insult, and apparently some people in the American medical community use it in the technical sense too.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Dave W, I think you meant to refer to the Pitjantjatjara peoples.
No, I was referring to a word transcribed from the audio track of a movie; possibly Paul Hogan's character was referring to "the Pitjantjatjara peoples" - or possibly he would have followed the usage of Tania Major (Young Australian of the Year 2007!) and transcribed it as "Pintinjarra"...
"Pintinjarra" is indeed a rough transcription of how most ignorant white people would pronounce the name of the Pitjantjatjara people. It's still not correct even if intended as a guide to pronunciation.
You didn't click on the link, did you?
I'm quite willing to admit my total ignorance of Aboriginal groupings, cultures, languages, and transliterations, but having found that spelling used by a prominent Aboriginal Australian, I think I can step back now and let you take it up with her (and maybe Paul Hogan.)
There is indeed something vaguely amusing and misconceived about trying to tell someone they used the 'wrong' spelling for a language that has only recently, and very patchily, been put into the Latin alphabet. Standardisation takes a while, and while "Pitjantjatjara" is common, so is "Pitjantjara". With a whole syllable's difference. Which is 'correct'?
Canberra has a suburb called "Aranda" named after a people that are also called "Arunta" and these days would more commonly be called "Arrernte".
It's no different to the fact that it took a long time to replace Peking with Beijing.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
And as for this:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I have had at least one objection on the Ship to the use of "Scotchman", but as the late A.J.P. Taylor commented in his English History 1914-45, "Some inhabitants of Scotland now call themselves 'Scots' and their affairs 'Scottish'. They are entitled to do so. The English word for both is 'Scotch', just as we call les francais the French, and Deutschland Germany. Being English, I use it".
The late A.J.P. Taylor was clearly an ignorant and offensive man, and I hope you will not follow his example. [/QB]
I don't 'use the adjective Scotch because it doesn't sound correct but why is it offensive? I have tried googling and all I can find is that it isn't used very much anymore.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
I am not offended to be thought of as a "Yank" as I was born in LA, though I wish I were a "Brit". I have several distant relatives with my surname in England and many friends, though it has been several years since I talked to any of them on the phone and I have never met most of them in person...
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
The late A.J.P. Taylor was clearly an ignorant and offensive man
Taylor was certainly an offensive man - he offended me at any rate, in a number of respects, such as his attitude toward the Soviet Union.
Given his academic, publishing and media career, I would hesitate to call him ignorant, Cottontail, but perhaps your equivalent or superior erudition to his entitles you to do so.
[ 02. January 2013, 05:20: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
KC,
On can certainly be educated and ignorant concurrently. Truly, I've seen it done.
However, if one is not ignorant of the offensiveness of a word, it multiplies their offense when using it.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Canberra has a suburb called "Aranda" named after a people that are also called "Arunta" and these days would more commonly be called "Arrernte".
It's no different to the fact that it took a long time to replace Peking with Beijing.
ISTM, it stems from the same root cause. "This is what we have used for so long, we don't really see why the silly buggers have an objection, it is more difficult to pronounce and it is not important to us."
What to call who and in what context can be a minefield, yes. But really, it is about respect. Respect other people, other groups and the rest comes fairly easily.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Although I was born in England I came to live in Australia at the age of two. All my life I have been referred to by many as a Pom even though I sound Australian. None of this offends me. I think people become too precious about such things and just need to either learn to accept it or else laugh it off. Chill out!
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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