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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Watch your language?
lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Although I was born in England I came to live in Australia at the age of two. All my life I have been referred to by many as a Pom even though I sound Australian. None of this offends me. I think people become too precious about such things and just need to either learn to accept it or else laugh it off. Chill out!

Fairly easy to say in your context. Not the same when epithets are directed from abuser to the abused.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
In America I understand you are allowed to say people are retarded.

You have been misled.

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
In America I understand you are allowed to say people are retarded.

You have been misled.
Pleased to hear it

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
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Galloping Granny
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Officially, 'disabled' is now replaced by 'differently abled', the rationale being that 'disabled' identifies a person negatively; the change is to emphasise the fact that people seen initially as visibly lacking a normal function may have many other outstanding abilities, eg the woman with one leg (no legs?) who is a gold medal paralympic swimmer, the blind man with a musical gift etc etc.

BTW, nigger brown was darker than chocolate brown – I wonder what it is now called.

GG

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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Cottontail

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
The late A.J.P. Taylor was clearly an ignorant and offensive man

Taylor was certainly an offensive man - he offended me at any rate, in a number of respects, such as his attitude toward the Soviet Union.

Given his academic, publishing and media career, I would hesitate to call him ignorant, Cottontail, but perhaps your equivalent or superior erudition to his entitles you to do so.

I am entitled to call him ignorant in his attitude both towards the workings of language and towards the sensibilities of my own nation and culture. This is not by virtue of any particular erudition of my own, but is a judgement based merely upon the quotation you posted.

Taylor claims that the word 'Scotch' is a neutral word. He (and you) have been told that it is not, by the very people to whom he applied it. According to his own account, he dismisses this objection as unfounded. This is an ignorant statement, because he claims for himself as a representative of a more powerful culture the right to define the less powerful one ... and sees no problem in doing so.

An intelligent bigot is still a bigot. And bigotry is ignorant.

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birdie

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by birdie:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
.... its UK meaning, which is as a very strong expletive indicating someone who masturbates, usually only heard after the watershed in gritty drama's or by edgy comedians.

Really? I heard it - twice - on Radio 4 at about 6.50 this evening.
Really? I am surprised. I would be interested to find out if there are any complaints about it because I'm pretty sure that it would not be allowed on television at that times. I wonder if there are different rules for radio?

The program wasn't an American one being broadcast on R4 was it, which would be explained by my post above regarding the differences in the meaning of the word in use in the UK and the US.

It was on 'Never Seen Star Wars' with Marcus Brigstocke talking to Meera Syal about her first experience of attending a football match. They were talking about chants and songs and he asked "Did you find out who the wanker in the black was? Nobody ever seems to know." I can't remember her exact response but she also used the word.

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balaam

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quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
BTW, nigger brown was darker than chocolate brown – I wonder what it is now called.

Dark chocolate.

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North East Quine

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Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
I don't 'use the adjective Scotch because it doesn't sound correct but why is it offensive? I have tried googling and all I can find is that it isn't used very much anymore.
I wouldn't be offended if someone called me "Scotch" I'd just think they were wrong. "Scotch" describes things, such as Scotch whisky, Scotch pine trees, Scotch eggs, etc. "Scottish" describes people.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a grammatical difference, on a par with "apple's for sale". It would only be offensive if A.J.P. Taylor was deliberately implying that we Scots as "things" rather than "people."

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
I don't 'use the adjective Scotch because it doesn't sound correct but why is it offensive? I have tried googling and all I can find is that it isn't used very much anymore.
I wouldn't be offended if someone called me "Scotch" I'd just think they were wrong. "Scotch" describes things, such as Scotch whisky, Scotch pine trees, Scotch eggs, etc. "Scottish" describes people.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a grammatical difference, on a par with "apple's for sale". It would only be offensive if A.J.P. Taylor was deliberately implying that we Scots as "things" rather than "people."

If that's the basis of the distinction, it's a highly unusual one. Because in most cases, the word for people with a particular country of origin and the word for things with the same coutry of origin is exactly the same.

To be honest it does sound to me like a rationalisation after the event.

[ 02. January 2013, 10:44: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
I don't 'use the adjective Scotch because it doesn't sound correct but why is it offensive? I have tried googling and all I can find is that it isn't used very much anymore.
I wouldn't be offended if someone called me "Scotch" I'd just think they were wrong. "Scotch" describes things, such as Scotch whisky, Scotch pine trees, Scotch eggs, etc. "Scottish" describes people.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a grammatical difference, on a par with "apple's for sale". It would only be offensive if A.J.P. Taylor was deliberately implying that we Scots as "things" rather than "people."

As a tangent, John Kenneth Galbraith, who was raised in a Scottish Canadian settlement near Lake Erie, writes that they referred to themselves as Scotch so as to differentiate themselvs from the (Scotland-born) Scots.
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North East Quine

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I'm not sure if this is relevent to the Scotch / Scottish thing, but we do distinguish between our country and our people. For example, south of the border, monarchs are Kings / Queens of England. But north of the border, they are kings / queens of Scots, the people, not the land (e.g. Mary Queen of Scots.) This goes right back to the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320.
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balaam

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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I wouldn't be offended if someone called me "Scotch" I'd just think they were wrong. "Scotch" describes things, such as Scotch whisky, Scotch pine trees, Scotch eggs, etc. "Scottish" describes people.

20 years ago, when my father was a fishmonger, smoked salmon was Scotch. Now it is Scottish. Even things are transferring in usage.

Which is what has happened with the description of people. Scottish people were self described as Scotch back in the early 19th Century, at least in the works of Sir Walter Scott.

If the Scottish people wish to be referred to as Scots that's fine by me. Language usage changes.

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North East Quine

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According to Wikipedia "Scottish" has always been the preferred usage in Scotland, but Scotch "more or less replaced Scottish as the prevailing term in England in the 17th century. The English playwright William Shakespeare used the word Scotch to describe a jig, but always employed the term Scottish when people were the subject."

What a pity A.J.P. Taylor didn't have access to Wikipedia; it could only have improved his historical understanding of the matter!

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AntarcticPilot
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I'd like to give an example of possibly inappropriate language as used by Chinese against Westerners. I am married to a lady from Hong Kong, and while we were engaged, her mother one day referred to me casually as "gwei-lo". She got an absolute rocket from my father-in-law! I only found out what had been going on afterwards; I speak little or no Cantonese.

Anyway, "Gwei-Lo" means something like "White Ghost" (translation of Chinese to western languages has even more pitfalls than translating Hebrew, so translations are fairly approximate!), and depending on people's age and background it varies between being extremely derogatory to being a friendly informal way of referring to a Westerner. To people of my father-in-law's generation it was quite unacceptable; to a younger generation it is fairly normal usage. Some people say that it indicates a hidden racism amongst Chinese people; others are comfortable with it. I see it as a bit amusing; after all, compared with my wife's family I do have a fair skin!

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lilBuddha
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NEQ,

I think the issue is Taylor was unlikely to care, not that he was unlikely to know.

Antarctic pilot,

It might be amusing because the word has no representation of power over you.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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barrea
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I can go back to the 1930s when I was a child, we used to have nigger brown shoe polish, nigger brown coats etc. It was just a colour used for clothes etc.and we would use the word nigger without a second thought. People would not get offended by it, althought there were no black people around by us in those days to take offence.
People seem to take offence too easily these days. I live in Birmingham and people sometimes call us Brummies but I don't make a fuss about it,even though I am not amused.

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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
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TomOfTarsus
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
'Coloured' these days seems like a slightly less offensive alternative to the N-word. I read only yesterday on a display about a church's former clergy, a priest from Africa was described as 'coloured'. Clearly it was intended politely, but now comes across as patronising. (He would probably have been so described at the time - 1960s - but I think the info was written much more recently)

Sorry for bringing up something from page 1, but I couldn't resist. When I went to see the movie "Redtails" (about the Tuskegee Airmen, a group of black US combat pilots that distinguished themselves in the face of discrimination and downright racist attitudes in WWII), one of the Tuskegee pilots, in reply to the question by a "white" pilot "Do you guys prefer to be called "negroes" or "colored?" said something to the following effect:

"You guys turn red when you're embarrassed, yellow when you're cowards, green when you're sick, blue when you're depressed, white when you're scared, and you call US colored?!"

One of the best lines in the movie! And at least in my neck of the woods, "colored" is not acceptable (nor, as the good man pointed out, does it even make sense!)

Happy New Year everyone!

Tom

[ 02. January 2013, 16:00: Message edited by: TomOfTarsus ]

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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.

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Gwai
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Barrea, I imagine it's a bit easier not to be offended when one doesn't have many attached memories of being insulted but unable to respond.
If you do get tired of being called a Brummie and ask someone to stop, they probably will. That's knowledge tends to make a big difference for many of us.

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If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
In America I understand you are allowed to say people are retarded.

You have been misled.
Pleased to hear it
Yes, it is definitely offensive to those impacted by cognitive disabilities. Unfortunately, it's become trendy among the young/ignorant to use the term as the go-to adjective for any thing (not person) that is stupid or worthless, as in "that's so retarded". I find it a most unfortunate trend, hoping it goes the way of "gnarly".

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
I can go back to the 1930s when I was a child, we used to have nigger brown shoe polish, nigger brown coats etc. It was just a colour used for clothes etc.and we would use the word nigger without a second thought. People would not get offended by it, althought there were no black people around by us in those days to take offence.
People seem to take offence too easily these days. I live in Birmingham and people sometimes call us Brummies but I don't make a fuss about it,even though I am not amused.

If African Americans living in the American South in the Civil Rights era, dealing with lynchings and church bombings and firehoses and attack dogs (all linked to the n-word), were "too easily offended" then I don't want to know what you think is a legitimate cause for offense.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
People seem to take offence too easily these days.

barrea, coming from you, knowing things you have said before about offensive words, this is astounding bordering on damning.

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lilBuddha
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barrea,

That translates something like
"There was this bloke whose arms been severed, and he complained about it, can you believe it? And here I am, with a plaster on my little finger, not saying one word about my injury."

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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ToujoursDan

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"Fag" and "faggot" are also less acceptable than they used to be. Back when I was in school in the 1980s, they were still very common slurs, but that usage seems to be fading.

Calling something "gay" as in stupid is still around. There was an internet campaign to stigmatize that usage, but I suspect like most internet campaigns, it doesn't have much affect offline.

When I was younger (early-to-mid 1990s), an effort was made to reclaim "queer" as a positive term for gays and lesbians, but it became linked to radical politics ("Queer Nation") and seemed to never have taken outside certain groups, though it shows up in the alphabet soup of sexual minorities (LGBTQ).

"Gay" used to encompass both male and female, but that has also changed with Lesbians being separate.

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I wouldn't be offended if someone called me "Scotch" I'd just think they were wrong. "Scotch" describes things, such as Scotch whisky, Scotch pine trees, Scotch eggs, etc. "Scottish" describes people.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a grammatical difference, on a par with "apple's for sale". It would only be offensive if A.J.P. Taylor was deliberately implying that we Scots as "things" rather than "people."

Yes, this is one I didn't know about until I came to the Ship.

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Augustine the Aleut
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On occasion, I've had to chair meetings where there would be likely cause to discuss communities or identities or related issues. I usually took a moment before the session to apologise for being out of the loop in recent times and quietly ask what the appropriate terminology, as I did not want to offend anyone. The replies were always helpful and: a) kept me out of hot water, and: b) ensure that our discussions were not side-tracked.

Most recently, had I not done so, I would have been unaware of a localized but quite strongly-felt discussion between the proponents of hyphens as against their opponents (as in Mongolian-Canadian as opposed to Mongolian Canadian). And then there was the Latino vs Hispanic debate....

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by TomOfTarsus:
And at least in my neck of the woods, "colored" is not acceptable (nor, as the good man pointed out, does it even make sense!)

I wasn't suggesting that it was or should be (whether spelt with a 'u' or not). It is at best patronising and at worst dehumanising. It's just that it seems slightly less offensive than the N word. And understandable when used by older people who learnt some years ago that it was acceptable language (though, importantly, not necessarily to those so described) compared to the other.

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
And understandable when used by older people who learnt some years ago that it was acceptable language (though, importantly, not necessarily to those so described) compared to the other.

As mentioned before, it certainly was acceptable to Benjamin Hooks and the other leaders of the early American civil rights movement, again, as evidenced by the NAACP. Today it's more passe than unacceptable in the US. The phrase "people of color" though is still quite common here (perhaps indicating the other discussion re: disabilities-- that color is one characteristic, not an identity).

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
This is an ignorant statement, because he claims for himself as a representative of a more powerful culture the right to define the less powerful one ... and sees no problem in doing so.

An intelligent bigot is still a bigot. And bigotry is ignorant.

If a people from Scotland asked me whether I wouldn't mind avoiding the term "Scotch" because it was now out of date, and they preferred "Scots" or "Scottish", my natural instinct would be to respond, "Sure, if that makes you happy".

When people from Scotland become precious about the issue, play the victim card, and pretend that as members of a safe, prosperous, Western, developed country they are the victims of ignorance, bigotry and cultural oppression, my natural instinct is to think, "What a wank! I am deliberately going to go on referring to you as Scotch just to wind you up".

[ 03. January 2013, 00:35: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

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TomOfTarsus
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by TomOfTarsus:
And at least in my neck of the woods, "colored" is not acceptable (nor, as the good man pointed out, does it even make sense!)

I wasn't suggesting that it was or should be (whether spelt with a 'u' or not). It is at best patronising and at worst dehumanising. It's just that it seems slightly less offensive than the N word. And understandable when used by older people who learnt some years ago that it was acceptable language (though, importantly, not necessarily to those so described) compared to the other.
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you did; I understand your point. Around here, as in most places in the US, calling someone a "nigger" is asking for a fight, plain and simple. Calling someone "colored," really a throwback term around here, would be offensive, but I would think it would be taken as coming from a place of ignorance, like "what century did you just arrive from?" The absurdity of it is illustrated by my quote from "Redtails".

Best,

Tom

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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
When people from Scotland become precious about the issue, play the victim card, and pretend that as members of a safe, prosperous, Western, developed country they are the victims of ignorance, bigotry and cultural oppression, my natural instinct is to think, "What a wank! I am deliberately going to go on referring to you as Scotch just to wind you up".

Colour me surprised. [Disappointed]

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Galloping Granny
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# 13814

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
In America I understand you are allowed to say people are retarded.

You have been misled.
Pleased to hear it
Yes, it is definitely offensive to those impacted by cognitive disabilities. Unfortunately, it's become trendy among the young/ignorant to use the term as the go-to adjective for any thing (not person) that is stupid or worthless, as in "that's so retarded". I find it a most unfortunate trend, hoping it goes the way of "gnarly".
Equally offensive among the young is calling someone a 'retard' as an insult.

GG

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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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Kaplan--

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
When people from Scotland become precious about the issue, play the victim card, and pretend that as members of a safe, prosperous, Western, developed country they are the victims of ignorance, bigotry and cultural oppression, my natural instinct is to think, "What a wank! I am deliberately going to go on referring to you as Scotch just to wind you up".

I don't know anything about you, and don't need to. But everyone belongs to various groups: racial/ethnic, nationality, sexual preference, political, abilities and disabilities, belief system, intelligence, eye and hair color, memberships, weight, height, fitness, mental health, sports teams, preferred music/authors/movies, etc. etc. etc.

So, somewhere in there is something about you that someone somewhere loathes. You may never have run into it. But please do a thought experiment: what if someone who loathed your group(s) treated you the way you treat other people? Wouldn't you be pissed off?

Oh, and I don't know much about the current situation of the Scots. But, in the past, they definitely *have* been "the victims of ignorance, bigotry and cultural oppression".

You seem to think that the Scots you know are asking you to be politically correct. But PC is just a way of dismissing someone else's concerns.

I am fighting oppression.
You are compassionate.
They are politically correct.

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Huia
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I find it a most unfortunate trend, hoping it goes the way of "gnarly".

Cliffdweller the word "gnarly" is used here in NZ to describe something that is challenging and not to be undertaken by beginners, such as a cycle track down the side of a very steep hill or a particlarly difficult and complicated stretch of water for kayaking. Does it have other connotations where you live, or did you say that because it is overused?

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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North East Quine

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
When people from Scotland become precious about the issue, play the victim card, and pretend that as members of a safe, prosperous, Western, developed country they are the victims of ignorance, bigotry and cultural oppression, my natural instinct is to think, "What a wank! I am deliberately going to go on referring to you as Scotch just to wind you up".
You wouldn't wind me up, simply by calling me "Scotch". As far as I'm concerned, Scotch / Scottish is just one of those things you learn at school, along with "i before e, except after c" and collective nouns. I'd register it, in the say way as I'd register someone saying "comprised of" but it wouldn't bother me.

The point about the A.J.P. Taylor quote is that he was trying to be deliberately offensive. He's trying to sound belittling. If I felt someone was using "Scotch" in an attempt to insult me, it would wind me up. No-one appreciates a person being gratuitously rude to them.

On its own, "Scotch" doesn't rank anywhere amongst the other examples given. It's a linguistic quirk. Only a pedant would really care. But A.J.P.Taylor's use of a word in order to be unpleasant does rank with other people's use of racial terms used in a derogatory sense. It's A.J.P. Taylor's tone and intention that is the problem.

Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Saul the Apostle
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It seems to me you can practically call anyone anything you like....but.....put it in a context....I mentioned people call me ''a scouser'' someone from Liverpool. I have a very mild Liverpool accent.

Friends will often pull my leg about it and along with being a scouser, the people have a reputation for being thieves. Now a bit of good humoured banter is fine; but who delivers that is the key. A good friend who calls me a ''thievin' scouser '' is fine by me, I give back as good as I get.

But if it were my boss, who said it and then the whole dynamic changes doesn't it? Or someone who doesn't know me and again the context is changed.

I would refer to a scottish person I knew as ''Jock'', but not someone I've just met or barely know.

Language is powerful and can be highly toxic. But it can be a vehicle of fun and laughter; who uses it and context are all.

Saul

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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."

Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
lowlands_boy
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quote:
Originally posted by birdie:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by birdie:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
.... its UK meaning, which is as a very strong expletive indicating someone who masturbates, usually only heard after the watershed in gritty drama's or by edgy comedians.

Really? I heard it - twice - on Radio 4 at about 6.50 this evening.
Really? I am surprised. I would be interested to find out if there are any complaints about it because I'm pretty sure that it would not be allowed on television at that times. I wonder if there are different rules for radio?

The program wasn't an American one being broadcast on R4 was it, which would be explained by my post above regarding the differences in the meaning of the word in use in the UK and the US.

It was on 'Never Seen Star Wars' with Marcus Brigstocke talking to Meera Syal about her first experience of attending a football match. They were talking about chants and songs and he asked "Did you find out who the wanker in the black was? Nobody ever seems to know." I can't remember her exact response but she also used the word.
Bit of a mix of terminology there on their part. Everyone who's ever attended a football match knows it's not the wanker in the black

"The Referee's a wanker"

is the "normal" term of abuse (not one I'd ever use personally), with

"Who's the bastard in the black"

being the other (that I would also not use). So, "the wanker in black" is a bit of a corruption really.

Coloured has been unacceptable in Britain for quite a while - I remember an MP being called for it in the House of Commons quite a few years ago. Black or Asian are acceptable terms for things like news reports.

Nigger/Negro is completely out in current contexts - Luis Suarez got into a lot of trouble using that term during a football match against Patrice Evra. But that illustrated one of the points made here about context. Suarez was supposedly accustomed to that as a normal term and there was a lot said afterwards about the need for people to have things like that explained to them when they moved to a different country.

Interestingly, on new years day I watched The Dambusters film, in which one of the pilots has a dog called Nigger - that term wasn't muted or dubbed or anything. Also, in Fawlty Towers, The Major casually uses Nigger and Wog in a conversation about the cricket.

So we don't seem to have got so wound up about it that we can't show media from times where it was OK.

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I thought I should update my signature line....

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deano
princess
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quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
So we don't seem to have got so wound up about it that we can't show media from times where it was OK.

I'll watch out for the repeats of "Love Thy Neighbour" then!

Actually I won't because they won't ever be shown and for good reason, but the irony is that the racist always "lost" the situation at the end, and that the women were always more rational than either of the men.

But the point is that what is shown from yesteryear is most definitely censored.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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lowlands_boy
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Although it's freely available to buy on DVD at Amazon...

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I thought I should update my signature line....

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Officially, 'disabled' is now replaced by 'differently abled', the rationale being that 'disabled' identifies a person negatively; the change is to emphasise the fact that people seen initially as visibly lacking a normal function may have many other outstanding abilities, eg the woman with one leg (no legs?) who is a gold medal paralympic swimmer, the blind man with a musical gift etc etc.

Then how should we describe those disabled people who also happen to be feckless, lazy and of average intelligence?
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deano
princess
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quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
Although it's freely available to buy on DVD at Amazon...

Really? I've never looked but I am surprised,seeing as it has never been repeated on TV for decades.

TANGENT ALERT..

I keep looking to see if the old BBC/Alan Titchmarsh "How To Be A Gardener" series one and two are available to buy on DVD, but they never are. I don't know why because I would have thought they would have sold reasonably well. Oh well.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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Enoch
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# 14322

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Isn't the critical question whether the people being referred to are an oppressed and put-upon minority. They are entitled to be touchy, in situations where the rest of us aren't.

By no stretch of anyone's imagination are the Scots or scousers an oppressed and put-upon minority. That's why the rest of us are entitled to be a bit irritated if they come the hard done by. Nor are the Chinese. They are a major world power, with a booming economy and a seat on the Security Council. Which is why I stick to calling their capital Peking, just as the capital of France is Paris and not Paree and the capital of Spain is Madrid and not Madreeth.

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Saul the Apostle
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lowlands boy said:
quote:
Interestingly, on new years day I watched The Dambusters film, in which one of the pilots has a dog called Nigger
It was Guy Gibson and in the 1940s the term ''nigger'' was completely acceptable to use and was in common parlance, for example ''like a nigger in the wood pile.''This was a fairly common expression right up until the 1960s.

Now the word is only used by black people amongst themselves or those white people who are out and out racists. IMHO.

On another comment - I challenge the remark about scousers; they are often maligned and made to look foolish.

Again, it can be done 'nicely' by a friend, who is good naturedly pulling your leg, but by if the remark is transferred to an arrogant market trader from London, to be called a ''scouse wanker''(as one example) is wholly unacceptable and the addition of ''scouse'' with the other word makes it a loaded and highly provocative phrase . IMHO.

Saul

[ 03. January 2013, 12:05: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]

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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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To me, the critical question is whether someone minds what I call them. If they do, I don't do it. I call it "not being an arsehole."

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Enoch
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Isn't the critical question whether the people being referred to are an oppressed and put-upon minority. They are entitled to be touchy, in situations where the rest of us aren't.

By no stretch of anyone's imagination are the Scots or scousers an oppressed and put-upon minority. That's why the rest of us are entitled to be a bit irritated if they come the hard done by. Nor are the Chinese. They are a major world power, with a booming economy and a seat on the Security Council. Which is why I stick to calling their capital Peking, just as the capital of France is Paris and not Paree and the capital of Spain is Madrid and not Madreeth.

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Saul the Apostle
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Isn't the critical question whether the people being referred to are an oppressed and put-upon minority. They are entitled to be touchy, in situations where the rest of us aren't.

By no stretch of anyone's imagination are the Scots or scousers an oppressed and put-upon minority. That's why the rest of us are entitled to be a bit irritated if they come the hard done by. Nor are the Chinese. They are a major world power, with a booming economy and a seat on the Security Council. Which is why I stick to calling their capital Peking, just as the capital of France is Paris and not Paree and the capital of Spain is Madrid and not Madreeth.

Enoch,

I see your drift and thinking on this one, but I would argue, in certain cases, someone from Liverpool is in fact an oppressed minority.

Overall I would agree with the general assertion you are making BUT there are a number of caveats I would make and the Liverpool example is but one.

Saul

--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."

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Enoch
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Sorry, my post seems to have appeared twice. I've tried to remove the second one, but computer played up and missed the window. Could a Host remove it and this message please.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
So we don't seem to have got so wound up about it that we can't show media from times where it was OK.

Context is everything. A character in Fawlty Towers who is portrayed as a crusty old out of touch racist using the term nigger is one thing, it being used as an insult by a heroic character would be another.

Likewise Negro might sometimes be an unfortunate term to use but not necessarily evidence of out-and-out racism (particularly given a language barrier), but when it is used in a heated argument to address someone in the second person then it seems more likely to be intended as an insult and becomes more serious.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Officially, 'disabled' is now replaced by 'differently abled', the rationale being that 'disabled' identifies a person negatively

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Then how should we describe those disabled people who also happen to be feckless, lazy and of average intelligence?

Feckless, lazy and of average intelligence.

Same as you would with anyone else.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
lowlands boy said:
quote:
Interestingly, on new years day I watched The Dambusters film, in which one of the pilots has a dog called Nigger
It was Guy Gibson and in the 1940s the term ''nigger'' was completely acceptable to use and was in common parlance, for example ''like a nigger in the wood pile.''This was a fairly common expression right up until the 1960s.

Now the word is only used by black people amongst themselves or those white people who are out and out racists. IMHO.*snip*

The N-word was more neutrally used in Britain and Canada than in the US-- description of clothing in the 1940s used the term "nigger brown." Interestingly, white southerners told me that their grandparents were forbidden (pain of spanking) to use the word in the 1930s as being insulting towards servants and fieldhands. The term "coloured" was much more common, and "negro" when one was being formal or polite, or writing. Note that General Pershing, known as Nigger Jack on account of his command of US Coloured Troops in the pre-war period, could not be called so in the press, which named him Black Jack Pershing. Even a century go, it appears to have been unacceptable in polite society.

Black Canadian friends tell me that the N-word's contemporary use among and between Blacks is controversial and is only marginally acceptable--apparently one teenaged sibling of a friend was sentenced to shovel the snow during the holidays for using the word (and had to do the neighbour's driveway as well).

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ToujoursDan

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quote:
Originally posted by TomOfTarsus:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
'Coloured' these days seems like a slightly less offensive alternative to the N-word. I read only yesterday on a display about a church's former clergy, a priest from Africa was described as 'coloured'. Clearly it was intended politely, but now comes across as patronising. (He would probably have been so described at the time - 1960s - but I think the info was written much more recently)

Sorry for bringing up something from page 1, but I couldn't resist. When I went to see the movie "Redtails" (about the Tuskegee Airmen, a group of black US combat pilots that distinguished themselves in the face of discrimination and downright racist attitudes in WWII), one of the Tuskegee pilots, in reply to the question by a "white" pilot "Do you guys prefer to be called "negroes" or "colored?" said something to the following effect:

"You guys turn red when you're embarrassed, yellow when you're cowards, green when you're sick, blue when you're depressed, white when you're scared, and you call US colored?!"

One of the best lines in the movie! And at least in my neck of the woods, "colored" is not acceptable (nor, as the good man pointed out, does it even make sense!)

Happy New Year everyone!

Tom

Well, it's true that saying "Colo(u)red people" isn't acceptable, but "People of Colo(u)r" (POC) is a completely acceptable term. In fact, it is the preferred terminology used in corporate and scholastic affirmative action, diversity and inclusion initiatives and statements.

(I prefer the Canadian term "visible minorities", at least until one emerges as a majority, but that term isn't known in the U.S.)

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