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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: "I'm getting a picture…"
Komensky
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I've been doing some reading about the modern tongues movement [glossolalia; Maloney & Lovekin; Tibbs: Religious Experience of the Pneuma] and it got me thinking about the (I suspect) recent [?] practice of 'getting pictures'. Am I on the wrong track here? Is there an ancient or even biblical tradition of 'getting pictures' to share with others during or as a result of prayer?

I'm a skeptic.

K.

[ 10. April 2013, 05:53: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw

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Ender's Shadow
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The entire book of Revelation, and large swathes of Daniel and Ezekiel are pictures received in prayer. In the New Testament Peter gets a vision:
quote:
10 And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.
Acts 10:10-16 whilst Paul gets directed by a dream to Macedonia and says later on the boat about to get shipwrecked on Malta:
quote:
23 For this very night there stood before me an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I worship, 24 and he said, ‘Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before Caesar. And behold, God has granted you all those who sail with you.’ 25 So take heart, men, for I have faith in God that it will be exactly as I have been told. 26 But we must run aground on some island.”
Acts 27:23-26

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fletcher christian

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My experience of charismatics getting pictures is of people wanting to say something to a group indirectly that is often a criticism or their own particular want, and being a picture from God you better not argue with me.

On the other hand, the mystical tradition of Christianity and associated 'visions' seems to be very often dismissed, although it's been a very long time since I was near a Charismatic outfit let alone at one, so things could well have changed significantly.

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Staretz Silouan

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Komensky
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The 'pictures' practice does not sound like the passages above. At the local C of E evangelical church it works like this. The vicar tells the congo that the 'ministry team' were praying before the service and someone got a picture of a bell. He then says "perhaps God is telling someone to celebrate something, or he is signalling that something in your life needs attention". I resisted booing, but this is what they do, pretty much every Sunday. It happened at HTB at pretty much any event where there was prayer--especially in small groups. I resisted the temptation to say things like: "I'm getting a picture... a sitting room, maybe, South London, there's a person there wondering how these people got into his house… there's a lot of time-wasting going on… this could be for someone in this room!"

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quetzalcoatl
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It's interesting though that visualizations are used all over the place now, as a source of inspiration and strength, and so on, for example, in sports psychology.

I suppose the religious can use it to indicate some kind of divine message. Then it's difficult to sift out the valid from the invalid. Suppose I get a picture of having sex with the traffic warden?

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
At the local C of E evangelical church it works like this. The vicar tells the congo that the 'ministry team' were praying before the service and someone got a picture of a bell. He then says "perhaps God is telling someone to celebrate something, or he is signalling that something in your life needs attention".

This sounds more like a poorly staged séance than a prophecy.

As others have already said, "visual" prophetic messages have a long pedigree, and I'd like to think they're still current. What you're describing sounds one step away from "I'm getting a message for someone here from Joan ... does anyone know a Joan who may have passed recently?..." Shoddy, nasty, manipulative, and lots of other words of a more Hellish than Purgatorial nature.

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Komensky
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Adeodatus, I appreciate and accept that 'God spake sometimes in visions' (cue lovely anthem by John Blow), but the examples in the Bible seem a long way away from the crap I've described above. Plus, the examples above seem to be accounts of visions (some of which were the result of a trance!) then written down.

It seems to me yet another new-agey thing introduced into certain corners of Christian devotion and then finding itself in search of Biblical support.

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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw

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Gamaliel
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Komensky, these days I have a pretty fool-proof way of 'testing' the sort of jejune 'prophecies' and 'pictures' offered as standard fare in your average charismatic evangelical Anglican congregation.

It's simply this:

They are talking bollocks.

It is wishful thinking and can interfere with genuine discernment and what the Lord might actually be saying to people ... which is more likely to be along the lines of asking them to stop farting about with jejune prophecies and so on and actually doing something constructive with their time ...

[Biased] [Razz]

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Rosa Winkel

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Us Quakers place an emphasis on silence (rtcourse) and group-based discernment of truth, and that includes any "messages" we may feel. Such messages can take the form of Ministry during Meetings. My experience is of getting thoughts and occasionally, well, rarely, I will "feel" called to share them. If the Meeting was to support my view this would be in the context of silence, prayer and a group-based decision.

I say all that not as promotion, but to provide context to the following: A "seasoned" Quaker told us in a small-group meeting that he sometimes Ministers not out a sense of calling, but out of emotion, and sometimes realises afterwards that he shouldn't have Ministered.

My point is, I am open to "words" and "messages", but they need a good structure for discernment.

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Gamaliel
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From my very limited experience of Quakers, I think they're a lot better at this sort of thing than evangelical charismatics generally are.

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chris stiles
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Generally the samples I've experienced have been very bad - unintentional - cold reading.

"I get the picture of a box .. and it's wrapped up with a ribbon, and I feel that God is saying that your gifts are inside the box, and you need to unwrap your box"

To the somewhat more strange:

"I saw Prince Philip go up Mount Everest and shout "Yes!" .. and then I knew that something had happened. And then this morning Diana was dead"

To the picaresque, which defy description.

Both examples above are genuine.

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fletcher christian

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I tend to be a little coy about a 'visitation' from God. I know there are some who think they should have this profound experience of God after a thirty minute prayer meeting of constant babbling. Personally I think a truly genuine and profound sense of God's presence might be a tad more earth shattering. Some of the Christian mystical tradition understands it in terms of a darkening of the world, and some others are so extreme that they seem unable to function properly after it, and yet others have an experience that seems at first entirely unwanted.

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Staretz Silouan

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Just a stupid question from a heretic here.

How is it that you have to contemplate, sit quietly or otherwise conjure up divine presence? Why doesn't god show up when people really need something, and are wailing, in pain, and otherwise could actually benefit from it? Whether its ascetics, charismatics, Quakers or anyone else, in general we should assume that the pictures are human generated and be sceptical. That god only shows up for special people doing special things like tongue talking or group meditating means god plays favourites and more or less hates and ignores most of the world. This is really why this won't wash at all.

And if God doesn't ignore most of the world, doesn't require special conjuring and magic to entice his presence, and actually visits everyone, I must be far far too stupid to notice.

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fletcher christian

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....or maybe you're just looking for something showy and miss the miracles right in front of your face?

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
The 'pictures' practice does not sound like the passages above. At the local C of E evangelical church it works like this. The vicar tells the congo that the 'ministry team' were praying before the service and someone got a picture of a bell. He then says "perhaps God is telling someone to celebrate something, or he is signalling that something in your life needs attention". I resisted booing, but this is what they do, pretty much every Sunday. It happened at HTB at pretty much any event where there was prayer--especially in small groups. I resisted the temptation to say things like: "I'm getting a picture... a sitting room, maybe, South London, there's a person there wondering how these people got into his house… there's a lot of time-wasting going on… this could be for someone in this room!"

How is the "bell" picture not precisely like biblical visions? How is it any different then, say, Peter seeing a vision of a sheet with unclean foods laid out on it?

That's not to say the "picture" thing hasn't been misused. It certainly has, and that may have been the case here. But to dismiss the possibility of a pictorial revelation out of hand is, as others have said, to dismiss a good chunk of the NT.

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Belle Ringer
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Once I was with a little group, singing some of those glorious triumphant "God is great" songs, but it sounded so thin with just a few voices in a big empty storefront that swallowed the sound. I inwardly lamented that the music didn't sound right, so weak in contrast with the words. Then I saw as if through a window that opened up high at some distance, a crowd of (I assumed) angels singing with us. That was so encouraging, the song did sound right, it did have the hundred voices it needed.

I have never again felt like some little congregation of weak voices can't carry a glorious song. We aren't singing alone.

I am sure some of you will insist I am making this up, or it was my own imagination, or indigestion, or self delusion, or all the other objections that get dumped on anything the slightest bit suggesting that God really does interact sometimes with human beings today.

But it's typical of a "picture."

If God wants to reveal some massive amount of information, that takes a long time, Isaiah saying "thus said the Lord" and prattling on for pages, John going into a trance and writing a whole book about it.

If God has just a tidbit of useful information or reassurance or guidance to convey, it takes just a picture-glimpse, or just one word.

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Ethne Alba
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tangent alert on// Really trying to get my head round why anyone would bother to go to a church that they So Profoundly Disagree With....// tangent alert off
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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
How is the "bell" picture not precisely like biblical visions? How is it any different then, say, Peter seeing a vision of a sheet with unclean foods laid out on it?

Partly, I think, it's about power and manipulation. If you're in a position of power (e.g. a certain kind of minister within a certain kind of congregation) then you can use this kind of thing to strengthen your position and manipulate the people over whom you have power. In some ways, Peter's vision of the sheet is an unfortunate comparison here, because he was in such a position of power among the apostles (which isn't to say they always let him get away with it).

But if your visionary is a fairly powerless person, then I'm less wary. The voice of the powerless prophet always sounds more authentic to me - because, in the end, what's in it for them? (See, for example, Jeremiah.)

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
The vicar tells the congo that the 'ministry team' were praying before the service and someone got a picture of a bell. He then says "perhaps God is telling someone to celebrate something, or he is signalling that something in your life needs attention".

How is the "bell" picture not precisely like biblical visions? How is it any different then, say, Peter seeing a vision of a sheet with unclean foods laid out on it?

That's not to say the "picture" thing hasn't been misused. It certainly has, and that may have been the case here. But to dismiss the possibility of a pictorial revelation out of hand is, as others have said, to dismiss a good chunk of the NT.

The problem with the bell story is that an image understood as a message for someone other than the receiver is presented attached to the teller's guesses at possible interpretations. He has polluted God's message by adding his own message to it.

The way to tell of a "message" received for someone else is to simply state what is received. No added guessing! "I received an image of a bell, I think it's for someone in this room." End of topic. If it has meaning for someone, great; if not, that's fine too.

The bell image, if from God, probably had nothing to do with a celebration or a call to attention. Something more specific, more personal. God's messages to an individual (as opposed to a general message) are often very personal. But that specific personal message may have been lost because of the distracting interpretation.

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Gamaliel
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Don't get me wrong, I am not dismissing the possibility of these things happening ... it's just that when this sort of thing happens in the NT it generally has rather a lot more import than just giving us all nice feelings ...

Paul's dream/vision of the Macedonian, 'Come over and help us', ultimately led to the evangelisation of Western Europe.

The Apostle Peter's vision of the sheet let down from heaven with all manner of creepy-crawlies in it, 'Arise Peter, kill and eat ...' led to the Gospel being preached to the Gentiles for the first time ...

Some nice, cosy little 'words' or cliched 'picture' - such as the bell one in the OP - just don't come anywhere close to that.

I have had one or two quite mystical or 'supernatural' experiences in my time and although they also felt surprisingly 'ordinary' at the same time, I am rather reluctant to talk about them.

This sort of thing doesn't happen very often in my experience and I tend to be wary of those who claim that it does - because it almost invariably cheapens the whole thing.

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Ramarius
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For people who are primarily visual learned, 'pictures' are a very effective means of communication. As for content being variable, well we could say the same for supposedly serious Christian books, efforts at theology and not a few sermons I've heard......

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Drifting Star

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It's certainly not recent (although there may be a recent upsurge - I don't know) because this was certainly happening 30 years ago. My experience was that the pictures were usually* very general - usually images that spoke of God's love or majesty rather than messages for specific people.

*That said, one picture was of a small bottle of eyedrops with a white label, accompanied by the message that God wanted to heal the owner of the bottle of whatever was wrong with their eyes. He did. It was me, and it was an allergy that hasn't returned.

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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus

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Ramarius
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quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
It's certainly not recent (although there may be a recent upsurge - I don't know) because this was certainly happening 30 years ago. My experience was that the pictures were usually* very general - usually images that spoke of God's love or majesty rather than messages for specific people.

*That said, one picture was of a small bottle of eyedrops with a white label, accompanied by the message that God wanted to heal the owner of the bottle of whatever was wrong with their eyes. He did. It was me, and it was an allergy that hasn't returned.

[Yipee]
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Jolly Jape
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Don't get me wrong, I am not dismissing the possibility of these things happening ... it's just that when this sort of thing happens in the NT it generally has rather a lot more import than just giving us all nice feelings ...

Paul's dream/vision of the Macedonian, 'Come over and help us', ultimately led to the evangelisation of Western Europe.

The Apostle Peter's vision of the sheet let down from heaven with all manner of creepy-crawlies in it, 'Arise Peter, kill and eat ...' led to the Gospel being preached to the Gentiles for the first time ...

Some nice, cosy little 'words' or cliched 'picture' - such as the bell one in the OP - just don't come anywhere close to that.

I have had one or two quite mystical or 'supernatural' experiences in my time and although they also felt surprisingly 'ordinary' at the same time, I am rather reluctant to talk about them.

This sort of thing doesn't happen very often in my experience and I tend to be wary of those who claim that it does - because it almost invariably cheapens the whole thing.

I suspect we're going to go round in circles again, here, Gamaliel, but your point surely does depend on a presumtion that the only revelation received by early believers were those recorded in scripture, a proposition I consider unlikely. Once one accepts that some editing went on during the process of writing the New Testament, then one would presumably expect that the recorded "words" were the ones which the passage of time affirmed as being the most significant. I'm sure Peter preached many sermons where 3000 people didn't come to faith, but I'm not at all surprised that one which was that sucessful should be the one recorded.

And, of course, the fact that you or I find any given "word" to be banal tells us absolutely nothing, other than that we are not the intended audience. If we had been, we would have found it profound, not because of any intrinsic merit in the word itself, but because it speaks directly into our situation.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Ramarius
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Just while I'm thinking about this, I suppose an iconographic would say he'd 'got a picture' before starting work. Iconographic work is also born out of prayer and reflection.

BTW - Jape - nice post and agree with your conclusions. I'll leave Gamaiel to tell us whether he had in mind what you think he might have...

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Gamaliel
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Well, I've no reason to doubt Drifting Star's story (nice to meet you, Drifting Star) so I'm certainly not dismissing this sort of thing happening.

@Ramarius ... well it can a bit disingenuous, I feel to claim that not all sermons, books and theological works are on the money either. Of course not. But the last time I looked not all preachers, authors or writers of theological papers and tomes were claiming to be receiving unmediated messages from God.

That's what's so insidious about this stuff. It either puffs people up into thinking that they're some kind of prophet when all they'd doing - nine times out of 10 - are putting forward pious platitudes or observations that needn't be dressed up in spiritual sounding language.

Look at it this way ...

Supposing I want to get my own way at our local parish church - which is trying to become more charismatic. Do I undergo the hard-work of joining the PCC and sitting on committees and so on or do I go around proclaiming, 'The Lord has given me a picture and ...'

See how it works?

It's easy. Anyone can do it. I've told our vicar that if it's 'prophetic words' and pictures he wants then I could give him one every week for the next six months - and they'll all be ones I've heard or else variations on a theme ...

'There's somebody here who ... (delete as appropriate) -

Variation no.362 '... is standing at a cross-roads ...'

Variation no.426 '... feels like they're standing in a dark wood ...'

Need I go on?

Occasionally, just occasionally, there might be something along the lines that Drifting Star mentions and that's great ...

But there's an awful lot of dross to sift through.

As it happens, I do remember 'getting a picture once'. An RC priest said something to me in passing - he was expressing concern for an issue he knew I was working through. As he said something I saw something 'visual' as it were in my mind's eye that somehow clinched or expressed how I was feeling about things. I won't share it here and I didn't share it with him. I'm not sure whether it was my imagination or simply a way of visualising something that would have been fairly abstract otherwise ...

I suspect it was the product of my imagination but that doesn't make it any the less real or helpful.

But I wouldn't go around laying claims to 'visions' and so on on the basis of it.

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Gamaliel
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No, Ramarius, iconography is very different in that there are set forms and patterns which the iconographer follows - prayfully. The Orthodox certainly believe that the art of 'writing' an icon is inspired and that icons can confer and channel grace ... but it's a very disciplined and prayerful process - a form of ascetic practice.

It is nothing at all like the kind of thing you get week by week in your friendly neighbourhood charismatic fellowship. It's like comparing a Bach Choral with the latest offering on the X-Factor.

[Disappointed]

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Ramarius
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, I've no reason to doubt Drifting Star's story (nice to meet you, Drifting Star) so I'm certainly not dismissing this sort of thing happening.

@Ramarius ... well it can a bit disingenuous, I feel to claim that not all sermons, books and theological works are on the money either. Of course not. But the last time I looked not all preachers, authors or writers of theological papers and tomes were claiming to be receiving unmediated messages from God.

As far as preaching goes, I took my cue from
Peter

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'

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Gamaliel
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Ok - let's engage with Jolly Jape's points.

We might be going around in circles. But here's my take ...

1. No, I don't presume that the only revelation received by early believers were those recorded in scripture. Those recorded in scripture are there because they have something important or theological to tell us. Which ought to give us something of a clue ...

2. As for the banality of the 'words' or 'pictures' to anyone but the intended audience - well, I am prepared to accept that some banal 'pictures' or visions or prophecies and so on turn out to be anything but - as in the case of the allergy thing we've just heard.

But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't 'call' the banal the banal. I remember hearing six banal words in succession at a recent gathering - none of which turned out to apply to anybody there and all of which were so freakin' general and banal as to be truly risible. Sure, some of this stuff is real. 99.9% of the time it doesn't sound very real to me. You may wish to switch your mind off when you go to church. I don't.

It's difficult to criticise these things because people close ranks and play the 'unbelief' card or the cynicism card or else wriggle out of it by saying 'ah well, you weren't the intended recipient ...'

Nine times out of ten in popular charismatic circles there is NO intended recipient - because there is no message, no picture, no prophecy - just a simulacrum - a cardboard cut-out, something that is as close to what we read about in scripture (or the lives of the Saints ...
[Biased] ) as a Sealed Knot reconstruction of the Battle of Marston Moor is anything near to the reality of the original ...

Face it. Most of the time these things are crap.

Sometimes they aren't, and those times we give thanks.

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Ramarius
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
No, Ramarius, iconography is very different in that there are set forms and patterns which the iconographer follows - prayfully. The Orthodox certainly believe that the art of 'writing' an icon is inspired and that icons can confer and channel grace ... but it's a very disciplined and prayerful process - a form of ascetic practice.

It is nothing at all like the kind of thing you get week by week in your friendly neighbourhood charismatic fellowship. It's like comparing a Bach Choral with the latest offering on the X-Factor.

[Disappointed]

But weren't you just saying that 'pictures' also follow 'set forms and patterns'? Bach and X-Factor - well they're both music and many lovers of each find the other equally incomprehensible.

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'

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
...one would presumably expect that the recorded "words" were the ones which the passage of time affirmed as being the most significant...

And, of course, the fact that you or I find any given "word" to be banal tells us absolutely nothing, other than that we are not the intended audience. If we had been, we would have found it profound, not because of any intrinsic merit in the word itself, but because it speaks directly into our situation.

A public pronouncement recorded to be distributed to many others is about a general topic. Like when a preacher prays about what sermon topic, he will respond to a "message" he thinks God has given him (thru study or revelation or whatever) for the congregation as a whole. God's private messages to the preacher for the preacher's own life are not (usually) publicly distributed. Nor should they be.

The Bible is (mostly) a record of public messages, not private ones that have nothing to do with anyone but the receiver.

Hannah surely was not the only woman who ever prayed for a baby and received assurance and later had a baby. Praying for a baby is something childless women do, and giving assurance, or saying no, is something God sometimes does.

I surely wouldn't discount a woman reporting that she received a brief "picture" or "word" of assurance from God about having baby, or about not having one being God's best way for her, just because it's not some big revelation of eternal truth applicable to all. (There may be reasons to discount a report of a "word" or "picture" supposedly from God, but small and personal size of the revelation is not one of the reasons.)

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Ramarius
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Expecting multiple cross-postings here, but hey...

On Gamaliel's point to the Jape on banality, I'm with both of you to some extent. Whether or not something is 'banal' really comes down to if it spoke to someone. I'm with the Jape that we need to be careful not to judge substance by style.

Gamaliel raises a pastoral point for me - I reckon we need to work with people sharing revelation to help them mature in their gift, or let them know as kindly as possible if they really don't have one. I know plenty of people who's first attempts at sharing revelation have been pretty general, but have become increasingly profound - and accurate - as they matured in the faith.

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
originally posted by Gamaliel

well it can a bit disingenuous, I feel to claim that not all sermons, books and theological works are on the money either. Of course not. But the last time I looked not all preachers, authors or writers of theological papers and tomes were claiming to be receiving unmediated messages from God.

I know this was directed towards Ramarius, but I would just take a little issue with you here. Most "words", "prophecies" and "pictures" are not considered as unmediated messages at all. Sure, there are a few "Thus saith the Lord..." merchants around, but most of those who offer such words are fully aware of their own fallibility, and couch their offerings in a way that makes it clear that we, at best, see through a glass, darkly. For every one occasion of someone declaiming "Thus saith.. " there are a hundred prefaced with "I feel that God may be saying.. ", or "It may be that there is someone here with an injured Y. If so, we'd love to pray with you", or some such preamble. And for very good reason. It's not the place of anyone to direct how and when a person interacts with God. To verbally bludgeon a person into such interaction robs them of the opportunity of responding for his or herself.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Kaplan Corday
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There have been some interesting interpretations of Teresa of Avila's "picture" of an angel piercing her with a spear.
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Jolly Jape
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quote:
originally posted by Gamaliel

Nine times out of ten in popular charismatic circles there is NO intended recipient - because there is no message, no picture, no prophecy - just a simulacrum - a cardboard cut-out, something that is as close to what we read about in scripture (or the lives of the Saints ...
) as a Sealed Knot reconstruction of the Battle of Marston Moor is anything near to the reality of the original ...

Face it. Most of the time these things are crap.

Sometimes they aren't, and those times we give thanks.

The problem I have with this line of argument, Gamaliel, is that the standard of authenticity which you apply to charismatic "events" is far higher than most people would apply to any other aspect of church life. You talk of 90%, yet most of us would be delighted if one in ten of the people with whom they engaged about matters of faith moved from unbelief to belief. IME, I think the "hit rate" of charismatic utterances (measured by, "does this thing that is said meet with a response from at least one person present"), is much higher than 1 in 10, though it does seem to go in seasons. On average, I think 1 in 2 or 3 would be about right, though some particularly attuned practitioners seem to acheive much more accuracy, enough for those who know them to be very surprised if there is not a response. Of course, these figures are only for "word of knowledge" which is easier to evaluate in the short term (someone responds, or no-one responds) than prophecy per se.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Gamaliel
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I'm also very wary of using the term 'revelation' in relation to this sort of thing, Ramarius, but that might be pedantic.

@Jolly Jape. I actually said 99.9% not 90% - so I've lowered your odds or raised the bar, rather ...

[Big Grin]

Actually, that's what I'm trying to do. Raise the bar. People like me who've been around the block a few times wouldn't roll their eyes skywards and groan inwardly whenever they heard that there were 'pictures' and 'revelations' and so on doing the rounds if the bar had remained high in the first place.

It's the lowering of the bar that has led to the plethora or vapid 'words' and 'pictures' and so on that brings this kind of thing into disrepute.

I'm reading a biography of the late Metropolitan Anthony Bloom. When he first started preaching he found that he could 'see' what he described as 'arabesques' in his mind's eye - squirly patterns which if he followed them assiduously, as it were, with his eyes closed as he preached, would give a kind of flowing structure to his sermons and add impact to his words.

When he shared this with Elder Sophrony, the Elder told him that it was 'immature' and that this kind of visualisation was only helpful for those young in the faith or new to the spiritual walk ...

The 'arabesques' faded away, never to return.

Metropolitan Anthony later reflected that the Elder was right and that these things weren't 'where it was at' as it were.

As for 'words of knowledge' and so on, I think we first have to define our terms and decide whether what we describe as 'words of knowledge' are actually what the Bible means by that phrase - I'm not entirely convinced that it is.

If I am apparently insisting on a higher level of authenticity for this sort of thing then it's because I don't want to debase the coinage. It's not people like me who are bringing spiritual gifts and so on into disrepute - it's the jejune use of bland and superficial prophecies.

Sure, iconography follows a pattern, liturgy follows a pattern, a disciplined rhythm of prayer follows a pattern - but that's entirely different to the rather trite and all-too-easily contrived pattern of putative words and prophecies that litter the charismatic scene today.

Someone has mentioned that we are seeing a resurgence of this sort of thing - I believe we are. Why? Because it's become trendy through things like New Wine. It's another fad.

That said, I do believe that there are people who become attuned and have remarkable insights and so on - one could cite The Cure D'Ars, Jean Vianney and also St Seraphim of Sarov - and no doubt various Protestant figures too - both living and dead.

That's not what I'm worried about.

I mean, I don't know why you guys are so insistent on defending the indefensible. In the gathering I mentioned one of the so-called 'words of knowledge' was, 'There's someone here who is having a tough time at work ...'

Well, no shit Sherlock ...

Do we really need divine revelation to work that one out?

Nobody responded. Why? Because it wasn't a word of knowledge, it wasn't a revelation, it wasn't anything but a whole heap of shite.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
one of the so-called 'words of knowledge' was, 'There's someone here who is having a tough time at work ...'


Reminds me of youth speakers who used to (perhaps they still do) get up in front of a crowd of hundreds of adolescents and announce, "God is telling me that there is someone here tonight who is troubled with lustful thoughts".
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The Rhythm Methodist
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I tend to think of ‘pictures’ as being in the same category as ‘impressions’…. not least, because they tend to emanate from the same type of churches, and often – from the same individuals in those churches. There are other similarities: they can both trace their rise in popularity to a similar era – round about the time when kipper ties and flares were also in vogue. Neither have any tenable scriptural mandate (unlike visions or prophecy, which these things are not claimed to be).

In my experience – far from being incisive, life-changing and clearly divine in origin – they are frequently banal, trivial, inaccurate or so vague as to be virtually meaningless. Some of the pictures are so impenetrable or weird, they cannot be interpreted in any meaningful way. Others have such an obvious (and often trite) interpretation, it is puzzling indeed why God would feel the need to put them in someone’s mind. Not that even the recipients of these things are often sure they are hearing from God: I’ve heard many accompanied by disclaimers, like – “it might be from God”, or “If it isn’t from God, just ignore it”.

It all begs a question, doesn’t it? Why would God choose to communicate in a way which sometimes cannot be understood, or may have any number of interpretations - a way in which, if there are any details, they are often wrong - where the content may sometimes be encouraging, but is usually just rather mundane? If we are to say that the spiritual gifts are still available, why on earth - when God is willing to equip the church with incisive and insightful gifts - would he suddenly decide that the haphazard, low-grade and vague approach works better….where even those who receive the message can’t be sure he has spoken?

The answer, of course, is that he wouldn’t.

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Lucia

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quote:
Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:

It all begs a question, doesn’t it? Why would God choose to communicate in a way which sometimes cannot be understood, or may have any number of interpretations - a way in which, if there are any details, they are often wrong - where the content may sometimes be encouraging, but is usually just rather mundane?

But the same could be said of quite large chunks of the bible couldn't it? Difficult to understand, a number of interpretations possible, some details wrong, sometimes it is encouraging but there are also some fairly mundane chunks, in the Old Testament in particular. But despite that God does speak to us through it and maybe at times God does also speak to particular people through 'pictures' despite all their weaknesses as a method of communication. But I think that if this happens it is for the immediate situation rather than some timeless new revelation for the church. I've heard a lot of 'pictures' described in my time and for the most part they seem a bit vague and hard to pin down, yet I can think of a couple of occasions where God used one to highlight something significant to me so it's hard to completely dismiss them. Having said that sometimes I feel God has spoken to me through things I have encountered in the natural world so maybe he is just good at using whatever material is to hand when he wants to get something through to us!
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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Just a stupid question from a heretic here.

How is it that you have to contemplate, sit quietly or otherwise conjure up divine presence?

Why do we now "see through a glass darkly"?

We believe that God is always present. We do not perceive His presence. God doesn't actually "turn up". It's more like we "tune in".

So the question for people of faith is "why should we be so blind?" A big question, probably not for this thread.

But it underlies the desperate desire to believe that God has communicated something. That we have not been abandoned by Him. Or, worse, that He is not there at all.

I think this creates a kind of desire which "pictures" satisfy. I'm quite sure that a heck of a lot of them are a kind of variant on wishful thinking. Which makes folks prone to the sort of power and manipulation to which Adeodatus referred.

The ancient understandings about transcendence - such as the belief that God, in His essence, is unknowable, that He dwells in, and is hidden by "the splendour of Light" - are an essential part of faith. The assurance of things not seen.

Put another way, if God is indeed Real, any experience of that Reality seems likely to shatter a lot of our pretentions, generate awe and hunility. Out of that experience and deep knowledge, we may learn to approach with confidence, as a Friend, the One who dwells "in light inaccessible".

To see more clearly, love more dearly, follow more nearly is a day by day and lifetime journey. In general, it isn't much helped by wishful thinking.

Not that we don't get insights in all sorts of ways. But if we dare to believe (as I do sometimes) that we've heard or seen something from God, some glimpse of Glory, some whisper of Truth, it's best we offer those things humbly, on an open hand. Second-guessing the Divine Mind strikes me as pretty presumptious.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
I've heard a lot of 'pictures' described in my time and for the most part they seem a bit vague and hard to pin down, yet I can think of a couple of occasions where God used one to highlight something significant to me so it's hard to completely dismiss them. Having said that sometimes I feel God has spoken to me through things I have encountered in the natural world so maybe he is just good at using whatever material is to hand when he wants to get something through to us!

Or that we are good at attributing these things to God, when they are, in fact from our own subconscious.

I was one of these people who, in my charismatic days, used to 'get pictures'. They were very real - often like a video playing, I found them easy to describe to the people as they were so vivid. They were always positive and many people found them uplifting, affirming God's love for them.

But I now attribute them to my own subconscious - which was heightened by the hypnotic atmosphere in charismatic services (CCR in my case). I know nothing of any such ancient practices, sorry.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Gamaliel
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I'll buy that to an extent, Lucia - but I'm with Barnabas62 on this one.

It's difficult to say these things without sounding all elitist (he's cited Bach rather than Matt Redman - he must be elitist ...) but I'm afraid I'm coming to the conclusion that popular charismatic practice has debased the coinage.

Rather than increasing our appreciation and openness to the transcendent it is rather diminishing it - in the same way that a cheap and inauthentic Indian curry will mar your tastebuds and possibly side-track you from tasting and appreciating the real thing ...

Or the way that cheap plonk isn't a patch on a vintage wine.

Again, it's hard to articulate this without sounding like a bozo of some kind - a kill-joy, an elitist, a Pharisee ...

Sure, God speaks to us in many and varied ways and a walk in the country fits into that just as much as anything else he may have at his disposal, as it were, to communicate to us creaturely creatures.

I'm not saying the Emperor of charismatic spirituality is wearing no clothes whatsoever ... even though he may only be protecting his modesty with a skimpy fig-leaf at times ...

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
I've heard a lot of 'pictures' described in my time and for the most part they seem a bit vague and hard to pin down, yet I can think of a couple of occasions where God used one to highlight something significant to me so it's hard to completely dismiss them. Having said that sometimes I feel God has spoken to me through things I have encountered in the natural world so maybe he is just good at using whatever material is to hand when he wants to get something through to us!

Or that we are good at attributing these things to God, when they are, in fact from our own subconscious.

I was one of these people who, in my charismatic days, used to 'get pictures'. They were very real - often like a video playing, I found them easy to describe to the people as they were so vivid. They were always positive and many people found them uplifting, affirming God's love for them.

But I now attribute them to my own subconscious - which was heightened by the hypnotic atmosphere in charismatic services (CCR in my case). I know nothing of any such ancient practices, sorry.

A very good point. I think it's correct that the unconscious is all the time sending forth a stream of images, memories, desires, and so forth, for our delectation, and of course, some of them seem useful, some of them decidedly tacky, some bizarre, some tedious, and so on.

I'm not sure how you can distinguish this from an authentic spiritual communication, but we should surely err on the side of extreme caution and modesty, in making any such claim.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Martin60
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Gamaliel, your first response got a LOL.

Ecclesially it isn't possible, in my 'charismatic' Evangelical - CE - fellowship, to have an adult-adult conversation about this as on other matters, especially damnationism.

It all seems to add to Evangelicalism doing everything and anything, including assuming the missionary position as Christendom dies, except being actually emergent.

Recently it was reported in our fellowship that the CE tendency to share one's stream of consciousness with total strangers has unintended consequences. A CE practitioner stopped by a civilian in a caf'e and said they had an image for them. The civilian asked if they were a witch.

Our CE squaddie was shocked ...

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Love wins

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Gamaliel
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Well yes ... because that's what it boils down to, at least in the way it is popularly practised.

I was on the train coming back from London the other evening and a Mancunian lass who'd been down there for an audition for something - she was clearly some kind of performer and with a voice loud enough to match - rang about two or three friends in succession to tell them how she hadn't been successful despite being led to believe that she had a pretty dead-cert chance.

She went on and on and on - rather irritatingly, although I could understand why she was narked - repeating the same story and the same phrases to whoever was at the other end of her mobile phone. In the end she rang the agency involved and remonstrated very loudly - and tediously - with them too.

I found myself thinking that, had I been back in my more full-on CE days I might have approached her as I left the train and said that I had a 'word' for her ... she might be disappointed now but something else would crop up and she would be glad, in the long run, that things hadn't worked out as she'd hoped ...

Now, this would have sounded all very well and good - but it would have been highly presumptious, if not downright rude, interfering or even slightly dangerous for me to have done anything of the kind ...

I'm sure if I'd been sitting nearer to her a few words of sympathy such as, 'Never mind, you might feel raw now but it might work out for the best eventually ...' might have helped.

But then again, it mightn't.

People said that sort of thing to me when I was made redundant. I just wanted to punch them on the nose.

This is the sort of thing that narks me about all this 'word' this and 'picture' that ... it's well-intentioned and well-meaning but it's trite, interfering and all too easy. I don't see these people who form 'prayer ministry' teams going round answering the phones for the Samaritans or doing anything useful with their time - and I'd apply that to myself too.

It's all too easy to dole out spiritual sounding words and advice without getting your hands dirty.

It's crap. It's just another middle-class charismatic fad with very little basis in scripture or tradition. Any resemblance to the kind of insights that Christ and his disciples and various Saints and so on down the centuries had is purely coincidental.

How do we even KNOW that it's the same thing?

It's wishful thinking on a colossal scale.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't see these people who form 'prayer ministry' teams going round answering the phones for the Samaritans or doing anything useful with their time - and I'd apply that to myself too.

Not true.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't see these people who form 'prayer ministry' teams going round answering the phones for the Samaritans or doing anything useful with their time - and I'd apply that to myself too.

Not true.
Prayer isn't useful? I thought Jesus sometimes prayed all night. Where did I get the silly idea Jesus encouraged prayer. And fasting.
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Gamaliel
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Ok - I over extended myself there ...

I'm sure plenty of people involved with charismatic prayer teams do lots of other useful things as well.

And yes, Belle Ringer, prayer IS useful ...

I didn't express myself very well. I was thinking about particular busy-body 'prayer ministry' types. We've all met them.

One of the things that makes me even more suspicious about some of these practices is that they're seen as the province of a particular coterie - despite all protestations to the contrary.

There'll be a bunch of people who pray before the service and 'feed' to the vicar the 'words', impressions and 'pictures' that they claim to have had.

For some reason in our parish, this praying happens somewhere between the 9am traditional hymn-sandwich just-about-recognisably Anglican service and the more informal 11am hardly-recognisable-as-Anglican-at-all service.

What does this imply?

That the people at the 9am service don't 'deserve' to receive words, pictures and impressions that are putatively from the Lord?

Well, one good thing is that if you get up early and go to the 9am service you are at least spared the ersatz 'words' and things that are shared in the 11am service. The vicar reads them out or reports on them, almost as if they are part of the notices. It sets my teeth on edge.

My wife simply goes [Roll Eyes]

I'm afraid I'm not gracious enough to do that. Hence the occasional over-reactions such as my 'something useful' comment.

But how anyone can claim that this practice is any way 'biblical' is beyond me. I s'pose they would cite the Apostle Paul's, 'How is it then, brethren, when ye come together everyone of you hath ... a revelation ...?'

The jury's out on whether he was saying this to discourage them for all clamouring for the mic ... or to regulate the contributions ... or simply to get them to shut-the ...

[Biased]

Sure, there are references in 1 Corinthians to the 'prophets' speaking - rather than everyone doing so - but I don't see much evidence for a special group getting together to do their 'thang' prior to the services.

You could challenge me, I suppose, with restricting this sort of thing to tried and tested individuals - the Cure d'Ars, St Seraphim of Sarov - but I do believe in spiritual gifts and that they are available to us all.

I just don't believe that the way these things are done in contemporary charismatic evangelicalism is particularly edifying nor convincing.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Komensky
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# 8675

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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't see these people who form 'prayer ministry' teams going round answering the phones for the Samaritans or doing anything useful with their time - and I'd apply that to myself too.

Not true.
Prayer isn't useful? I thought Jesus sometimes prayed all night. Where did I get the silly idea Jesus encouraged prayer. And fasting.
And just how, exactly, did Jesus suggest we pray? I don't remember anything about 'pictures'.

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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw

Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Prayer isn't useful? I thought Jesus sometimes prayed all night. Where did I get the silly idea Jesus encouraged prayer. And fasting.

And just how, exactly, did Jesus suggest we pray? I don't remember anything about 'pictures'.
If prayer is as much "listening" as "talking" why would God communicate only in words? Some brains think more in pictures than in words.

Churches do many things "wrong" -- from bad teaching in sermons and Bible studies to bad treatment of people, but we don't throw out all church because some of it is wrong. Why throw out all reports of supernatural because some of it is wrong?

Why not learn to tell good from bad teaching, good from bad treatment of people, good from bad claims of supernatural?

Weren't we told to "heal the sick, cast out demons, raise the dead"? Don't we need to wrestle with that rather than dismiss it?

But I guess people who feel abused by a bad church turn their backs on all things church, and people who feel abused by bad encounters with charismatics turn their backs on anything related to that.

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged



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