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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: "I'm getting a picture…"
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The only person I think I'd believe if I heard him say 'I'm getting a picture....' would be this one. Otherwise, I'd think it merely a product of an overactive imagination. I remember such pronouncements in the 1970s, so they can't be that new.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Hee! Hee!
@Belle Ringer, I'm not saying that every report of healing through prayer is somehow misguided or 'wrong', neither am I saying that all reports of 'visions' or 'pictures' if you will are misguided or wrong either.
'Test everything, hold to that which is good.'
That's what I'm doing here.
I won't always get it right any more than anyone else will. But at least I'm asking the questions.
It's the unquestioning acceptance that virtually anything or everything can pass muster as a 'word from God' or a 'picture' and so on is what I'm objecting to.
If I point out that so much of this stuff is vague and jejune I'm accused of throwing out the baby with the bathwater and turning my back on anything charismatic. I'm not. What I'm turning my back on is the faux-charismatic and the wishful thinking that leads to it.
It all comes down to context. To be frank, I'd be prepared to listen to the 'testimony' of a monk, nun or someone in your ordinary/everyday type of church who claimed to have had some kind of spiritual or supernatural experience than I would most charismatics. Why? Because these things aren't as expected as much in the former circles and so there isn't so much pressure to produce the goods.
Which is what I think is happening in charismatic circles these days. People are either under pressure to produce what looks like 'results' or else they lower the bar in order to obtain 'results' that aren't always necessarily the results they thought they were.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
The whole 'pictures' phenomenon is even younger than the tongues one (which is roughly from 1960), which is a quasi-new-age movement in search of a Christian theology. What shouldn't surprise anyone is that 'pictures' don't appear on the radar until after this--and really not until the 80s in any noticeable way. Nevertheless, people who love closing their eyes and telling the world they have a message directly from God are only too happy to claim biblical authority for the deception.
As usual, Mitchell and Webb are right on the money.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The tongues thing is older than that, Komensky. The Pentecostals were doing it from around 1906 and there had been sporadic instances prior to that - such as among the Camisards in the Cevannes.
What happened in the 1960s was that it somehow crossed over into US Episcopalian territory and from thence to UK Anglicanism and elsewhere. It became middle class.
The 'pictures' thing in the way that it is currently practiced is certainly younger. 'Tongues' and 'prophecy' tended to be the most common 'spiritual gifts' among classic or traditional Pentecostals. The more middle-class charismatics extended the range and repertoire.
I certainly came across instances of it when I first encountered both Pentecostalism and the Anglican 'renewal' in 1981. There were 'pictures' and so on among the Anglican renewalists I encountered and subsequently among the restorationists ... but I don't remember hearing anything akin to it among the Pentecostals I encountered in my native South Wales and along the border counties.
My guess would be that there were various waves of popularity - with the Wimber visits of the mid-1980s and a tad later popularising both 'pictures' and so-called 'words of knowledge.' The latter became pretty much de-rigeur across the piece after the first of the Wimber team visits. I'd heard of the 'phenomenon' - if phenomenon it really was - but not come across any instances of it that I can recall until 1984.
These days, these things are popularised by New Wine and by Bethel.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that the charismatic thing is 'New Age' - although I think there are analogies to be made.
I would agree, though, that it is largely a spirituality in search of a theology. It's been that right from the outset.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
You talk of 90%, yet most of us would be delighted if one in ten of the people with whom they engaged about matters of faith moved from unbelief to belief. IME, I think the "hit rate" of charismatic utterances (measured by, "does this thing that is said meet with a response from at least one person present"), is much higher than 1 in 10, though it does seem to go in seasons.
Sure, and just taking that figure alone, I'm sure most of your detractors would be happier about the practice as a whole if it appeared that those 9/10 who were 'thus saying the lord' and doing nothing of the sort were actually being dealt with in some way.
quote:
On average, I think 1 in 2 or 3 would be about right, though some particularly attuned practitioners seem to acheive much more accuracy, enough for those who know them to be very surprised if there is not a response. Of course, these figures are only for "word of knowledge" which is easier to evaluate in the short term (someone responds, or no-one responds) than prophecy per se.
I'll remain politely disbelieving about this one. As essentially you are claiming that your circle contains people with near infallible prophetic gifts. Extraordinary claims and extraordinary proof and all that.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Hmmm. Do the blind see? Are the poor fed? Is justice served? Are the afflicted comforted? Are the imprisoned visited? Are there any pictures of these things?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Nevertheless, people who love closing their eyes and telling the world they have a message directly from God are only too happy to claim biblical authority for the deception.
This is not fair. The people I used to worship with (Catholic Charismatic Renewal) were good and genuine people - down to earth folk from a Lancashire mill town. No deception was intended. They truly believe these things are from God - and so did I, at one time.
And yes, they do feed the poor and visit the prisoners - more than anyone else I know. They are good folk. That's what attracted me to their fellowship. I used to travel over the moors every Sunday evening to join them. I am still in touch.
The fact that I now believe these things were from our subconscious mind doesn't imply any deception. I have no bitterness towards them whatever. Their love is real - and surely that matters more?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Nevertheless, people who love closing their eyes and telling the world they have a message directly from God are only too happy to claim biblical authority for the deception.
This is not fair. The people I used to worship with (Catholic Charismatic Renewal) were good and genuine people - down to earth folk from a Lancashire mill town. No deception was intended. They truly believe these things are from God - and so did I, at one time.
And yes, they do feed the poor and visit the prisoners - more than anyone else I know. They are good folk. That's what attracted me to their fellowship. I used to travel over the moors every Sunday evening to join them. I am still in touch.
The fact that I now believe these things were from our subconscious mind doesn't imply any deception. I have no bitterness towards them whatever. Their love is real - and surely that matters more?
Sorry Boogie, I didn't mean to imply that people who close their eyes and 'get a picture' and then share it with others, telling them it is a cryptic message from God, are trying to deceive others. The deception is that they believed the lie in the first place; that what you imagine during prayer is a message from God to be shared with others.
[ 13. December 2012, 08:25: Message edited by: Komensky ]
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I don't have any first-hand experience of the Catholic renewal movement, but I do get the impression that many RCs are involved in the kind of mercy-ministries and so on that have been mentioned here - so are many Salvationists and many non-charismatics of various kinds.
Being charismatic doesn't give anyone the monopoly on 'doing good' any more than being a Christian does per se.
Equally, there are plenty of charismatics who aren't involved in stuff like this to any great extent. That said, charismatic parishes and communities do attract very able and committed people - it's an activist approach to faith so you will indeed find charismatics involved in lots of good stuff that's going on in their community etc.
I'm not sure there's a direct correlation, a cause-and-effect thing going on, though.
I was a bit harsh with my comments earlier and I didn't mean to impugn the integrity or genuine love and so on that one certainly finds in churches that go in for all this 'words' and 'pictures' stuff.
The discussion has gone in a rather different way to which I intended it to go.
The point I was making was that some of the people who form the nucleus of these 'prayer ministry' teams and so on that are de-rigeur in some congregations and parishes and which tend to generate the 'pictures' and so on in some kind of self-fulfilling prophecy kind of way might be better off channelling their energies into other things ...
I don't doubt Boogie's 'take' on her Lancastrian RC renewalists. But the focus - it seems to me - with a lot of these prayer-ministry type groups is on what happens in church meetings - or in particular services.
Hence my point that these things are restricted to the 11am service in our parish and don't occur at all in the 9am service. If God was really using 'words' and pictures to communicate with us, surely he'd be interested in doing it at the 9am service too?
No, these things happen within a self-selecting (and I would argue, a partly self-serving) coterie.
I don't think that's at all healthy.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Hence my point that these things are restricted to the 11am service in our parish and don't occur at all in the 9am service. If God was really using 'words' and pictures to communicate with us, surely he'd be interested in doing it at the 9am service too?
Agreed ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Could this be down to personality 'types' too? Those who are drawn to charismatic type meetings are also (maybe) drawn to other kinds of 'spiritual' practices - new age/crystal healing etc.
I know I'm a very arty, farty, hippy, visual type.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Sorry Boogie, I didn't mean to imply that people who close their eyes and 'get a picture' and then share it with others, telling them it is a cryptic message from God, are trying to deceive others. The deception is that they believed the lie in the first place; that what you imagine during prayer is a message from God to be shared with others.
Yes, I believe this too now. But I have no idea how I would tell my sincere friends that!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
But Gam, the reactions of which you speak are indicative of the logical meltdown inherent in so much of the movement--and more pertinent to this thread--their reactions to skepticism.
Me: I believe that much of the 'pictures' and 'words' stuff is a delusion.
Evo person: But our church is so full of wonderful people and we do so much good work in our community--how could you say that? Do think those people are liars?
[ad infinitum]
Once these patterns become part of the fabric of the culture that surrounds the practices, it's nearly impossible to remove them. Take a Roman Catholic case. The 'Ave Maria' became a popular devotional text. The source (Pseudo Matthew) was later found to be a forgery and the Church removed it from its body of inspired literature. Nevertheless, the text remains (probably) the most popular Marian devotion. My comments here are not about the veracity or usefulness of the text, but the fact that once something becomes a popular practice, it's nearly impossible to change.
The corpus of scholarly work on tongues is now quite large and none of the subjects studied revealed languages with cognitive content. Moreover, the patterns that do emerge reveal that they imitate each other (usually the lead pastor, vicar, etc.). Nevertheless, people who experience it, experience it as real--because it is real in the sense that it is really happening; but it is not what they first believed it to be. So what happens is that advocates of the practice have to contrive some other way of explaining it. The latter cases were seen on this board in abundance ("it helps me pray", "I feel transported", etc.); which are fine explanations, but it is not tongues as understood in the early church (which is what they claimed to be 'reviving'). In short, it's not a language in any sense, just someone babbling. In fact, brain scans of people 'speaking in tongues' reveal that their language faculty isn't even engaged.
The pictures thing has emerged (I stand corrected by Gam) along similar lines and is defended along similar lines.
More coffee now.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
My comments here are not about the veracity or usefulness of the text, but the fact that once something becomes a popular practice, it's nearly impossible to change.
“The fixity of a habit is generally in direct proportion to its absurdity.”
― Marcel Proust
As I said on a Circus thread ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
You talk of 90%, yet most of us would be delighted if one in ten of the people with whom they engaged about matters of faith moved from unbelief to belief. IME, I think the "hit rate" of charismatic utterances (measured by, "does this thing that is said meet with a response from at least one person present"), is much higher than 1 in 10, though it does seem to go in seasons.
Sure, and just taking that figure alone, I'm sure most of your detractors would be happier about the practice as a whole if it appeared that those 9/10 who were 'thus saying the lord' and doing nothing of the sort were actually being dealt with in some way.
I think your choice of words here is misleading. As I said, the number of people who literally say "thus saith the Lord" is vanishingly small. We offer tentatively, accepting we might be wrong. There is a discernment process here, in that clearly off the wall words would be rejected, but most of the discernment is down to the recipients of the words. Do they recognise the voice of God in what is said.
Are you saying we should give up sharing our faith because we have a one in ten hit rate. If not, why not, on your logic?
quote:
quote:
On average, I think 1 in 2 or 3 would be about right, though some particularly attuned practitioners seem to acheive much more accuracy, enough for those who know them to be very surprised if there is not a response. Of course, these figures are only for "word of knowledge" which is easier to evaluate in the short term (someone responds, or no-one responds) than prophecy per se.
I'll remain politely disbelieving about this one. As essentially you are claiming that your circle contains people with near infallible prophetic gifts. Extraordinary claims and extraordinary proof and all that.
I specifically excluded prophecy from the discussion, precisely because its nature makes it difficult to prove or disprove. I'm talking about words of knowlege, as commonly understood, here, where some objective measure is possible.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Hmmm. Do the blind see? Are the poor fed? Is justice served? Are the afflicted comforted? Are the imprisoned visited? Are there any pictures of these things?
In personal experience, no (unless you accept metaphorical fulfilment), yes, yes, yes, no. In as much as, have these things come about specifically because of, should we say, charismatic intervention. Actually, the feeding the hungry bit should be "not yet, but the process is under way".
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
<snip> There is a discernment process here, in that clearly off the wall words would be rejected, but most of the discernment is down to the recipients of the words. Do they recognise the voice of God in what is said. <snip>
Like, "God is that you?". This seems totally bonkers to me. There is a breakdown in the way the whole thing is approached. A person closes their eyes with the expectation of 'seeing something' and then 'something appears' and they conclude that it's a message from God. Surely all sorts of people with no faith 'see' images of some sort when they close their eyes and think of something or even nothing.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Are you saying we should give up sharing our faith because we have a one in ten hit rate. If not, why not, on your logic?
Theologically because Christ commands us to do so. Evidentially because it creates less collateral damage. There are all sorts of things hat might skew the discernment process, including being in a circle where such-and-such is acknowledged to be 'rarely wrong'.
quote:
I specifically excluded prophecy from the discussion, precisely because its nature makes it difficult to prove or disprove. I'm talking about words of knowlege, as commonly understood, here, where some objective measure is possible.
How does it compare with the hit rate of cold reading? [IME - and I spent many years as a convinced charismatic - about the same].
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not sure we should set out to 'expect' a hit-rate when we share our faith. The 'hit rate' isn't down to us. The onus is on us to share our faith. Whether there's a 'hit rate' or not is God's business.
I don't see the two practices as being in any way connected. I also take issue with the 'commonly understood' understanding of the term 'word of knowledge'. I don't know NT Greek but those who do tell me that it doesn't appear to mean what contemporary charismatics take it to mean.
In the case of insights and so on that are popularly understood to be what you mean by 'words of knowledge' - well, yes, I don't see any great theological objection - but I do see all manner of cold-reading and stabs-in-the-dark and vague postulations that pass off as the 'real thing' as it were.
Most of these apparent 'words of knowledge' (for want of a better term) are so vague as to be risible. Kaplan Corday hit the nail on the head with his youth camp example. My example of 'there's someone here who is having a stressful time at work' is another.
If someone came out with a 'word of knowledge' that went, 'There's someone here who spent Ł1.75 to get here by bus and was born in Lepton, Huddersfield on 29th January 1947 and their mother's maiden time was Sykes. The serial number on their library card is XYZ452390 and their great-uncle owned a Jack Russell called Simon ...' I might take these things more seriously.
I know that's a daft example but I bet you I could come up with a dozen or so fairly convincing 'words of knowledge' in the next few minutes that could easily apply to any one of a number of people here aboard Ship. That's how these things work. They are generally such vague generalities that they can apply to almost anybody.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I think there may be someone on this thread who sometimes doubts God's love for them. He would have them be reassured that they are his beloved child whom he will never forsake.
I think there may be someone on this thread who's struggling with anger towards someone. God would have them release their anger and be freed from it.
I think there may be someone on this thread who's troubled by their habit of masturbation...
etc. etc.
As practiced by all the tabloid (and to tell the truth all) astrologers, mediums, psychics and other woosters.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think that Komensky's point about the way that practices become embedded - and become traditions - is well made. You only have to look at the Toronto Blessing thing to see how quickly these things can take off - and just as quickly fade away.
I was involved with all of that and it was very evident that a 'Toronto liturgy' developed where people's expectations were manipulated to the extent that the fallings, laughings, crying out and shaking and so on was virtually inevitable. They became 'anchored' as recurring patterns. They very rarely - in my experience - occurred where there was little or no expectation or preliminary ground-breaking or preparation.
That's how this stuff works and apparent 'success' in one or two instances embeds it further so that these things happen again and again with less questions asked. The 'tongues' thing is an example of that too - although I am aware of examples where it has happened without preliminary cues and peer-pressure or expectation.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that it isn't necessarily what its practitioners and exponents believe it to be. I don't have a great deal of problem with the 'second-naivety' and people doing this stuff because they find value in it - whilst being fully aware that it's not exactly what they thought it was in the first place ...
It's pretty harmless on the whole. People can speak in tongues to their heart's content as far as I'm concerned, just as long as they don't push it on anyone else.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Ah, yes, my bad, Komensky. By recipient, I meant the person for whom the message is intended, the end-user, if you like, rather than the person through whom the message was delivered. What I was trying, somewhat ineptly, to say, is that if no-one receives the message as applying to them, then it's reasonable to conclude that the person giving the message has got it wrong. That, in itself, is not problematic: we all know only in part. Contrary to what was written upthread, people do not, in general, treat "words" as unmediated messages from God. Everything we do or say is always filtered through our flawed humanity. I don't see that as problematic.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
My faith in this stuff was dealt a double body blow; one series of events I'm not really at liberty to discuss for reasons of privacy; the other was the conviction of a number of people to whom I spoke about my perceived "calling" to become a teacher that this was indeed God's intention and plan.
I'm an IT engineer and have never been, nor am I likely to ever be, a teacher.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Reminds me of youth speakers who used to (perhaps they still do) get up in front of a crowd of hundreds of adolescents and announce, "God is telling me that there is someone here tonight who is troubled with lustful thoughts".
It would be more remarkable if they had correctly predicted the presence of someone who wasn't so troubled. (With an altar call and prayer that they may be restored to follow).
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
The whole idea of having a (or considering) a 'hit rate' shows how bizarre the whole thing is. A part of these movements believe that they are the ones with 'power' (you'll hear that word a lot in those circles). They believe that they wield a power. In doing so (or believing to do so) in makes perfect sense to determine whether you've used your power well or poorly. For them, it makes sense to have a 'success rate'. It's silly of course, but there you have it.
These are often the same people 'aiming beams of prayer' at people and things. They haven't realised that they have nothing to aim--God does that. This is one element that came from the New Age movement. New Age healers are the ones who provided the model for 'aiming power' or 'directing energies' at people.
I was there, I did it. I told people... "I've had a picture of …" some crap… and it's a magical message from God. Now all firmly behind me.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by KomenskyThe whole idea of having a (or considering) a 'hit rate' shows how bizarre the whole thing is. A part of these movements believe that they are the ones with 'power' (you'll hear that word a lot in those circles). They believe that they wield a power. In doing so (or believing to do so) in makes perfect sense to determine whether you've used your power well or poorly. For them, it makes sense to have a 'success rate'. It's silly of course, but there you have it.
Well, I don't much like the term "hit rate" either, but if we are going to discuss the accuracy or otherwise of purported "words", then we need some sort of terminology. Come up with a better term, and I'll happily use it.
As to the notion of power, it's precisely not what this is about. It isn't the "powerful" that mostly exercise these sort of gifts, rather the ordinary footsoldiers. God can and does speak to anyone willing to take the risk of listening, IME.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Chris Styles
How does it compare with the hit rate of cold reading? [IME - and I spent many years as a convinced charismatic - about the same].
Don't you have to be in a one on one situation to practice cold-reading? Sometimes, I might know for which individual a message is intended, but mostly I've no idea. I'm not sure it's all that relevant, though. It's the content that's important. Cold reading can't deliver that.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
originally posted by Chris Styles
How does it compare with the hit rate of cold reading? [IME - and I spent many years as a convinced charismatic - about the same].
Don't you have to be in a one on one situation to practice cold-reading? Sometimes, I might know for which individual a message is intended, but mostly I've no idea. I'm not sure it's all that relevant, though. It's the content that's important. Cold reading can't deliver that.
Yes it can, and it does, frequently, every time a psychic or medium does a big show with an audience. Some of it's trickery and research, and some of it's simple cold reading - some of the shysters in the business believe in it themselves.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
JJ, I think it's a false claim--at least in part. God speak to anyone who'll listen? God speaks to whomever he pleases and does what he pleases for his/her own reasons: he's God. If you accept that God is God, then all the stuff about aiming beams of prayer or receiving beams of prayer, or 'getting power' ["double the portion Lord!" I can recall Sandy Millar saying on a hundred occasions]. Portion? Again, here we are; with the assumption that we have magic powers given us by God... it just ain't there. And the refrain soon follows: "if only…". If only you had more faith [faith as power], if only you could reduce your spiritual blockages, if only you prayed in the right way... then God would unlock your magic powers! Someone at our local C of E evo church, only a few weeks ago, told God during the intercessory prayers that 'we' 'give you [God] permission to remove those obstacles in Parliament to preserving marriage' and so on. Who does she think she is? It may seem preposterous to some, but normal to others. If you live in a religious culture where you are assured that God in giving you your own language or sends you special pictures to share, then maybe you have collected enough special-power tokens to consider yourself in a position to give God permission to do your bidding. This kind of thing is totally normal in those circles. I've heard it thousands of times.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Forgive me for retelling a story that I've talked about before on the Ship, but it seems to me to be relevant here.
There was a time when I regularly helped on a Christian houseparty. The morning before the kids arrived we, the leaders, would get together to sort out admin and to pray for the youngsters. One such week there was a lad who came every year, who was perceived as an unspiritual troublemaker (I'm afraid I enjoyed his company far more than the spiritual superstars, who were deemed to be the "successes" of the week). In the time of prayer someone prayed for this chap by name, and someone else had a picture - of a vulture.
Well, I could see the way that this was about to go, so I swung right in with an interpretation: "Thus says the Lord - the vulture is my creature, created to preserve the balance of life in the deserts which I have made. Man calls him ugly; I see him as gracious, beautiful and doing my will. Even so, says the Lord, do not judge by appearances, or even by what has gone before, but let your hearts be filled with my love for all my children, and learn to glory in their achievements." No one challenged me, but an awkward silence followed.....
(PS That lad now has a PhD in Patristics from Oxford.)
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Someone there may indeed have been inspired by God, Robert.
Blessed are the awkward, troublemaking, right royal pains in the arse, because they're the ones who can see bullshit for what it is and call it. Warning - aforementioned blessing comes with risk of crucifixion in extreme cases.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Thank you Karl. If I qualify for the first part of your statement, I certainly qualify for the second!
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Having spent some years in charismatic churches, where these kinds of "pictures" were commonly expressed, I'm with Gamaliel. It's almost always total nonsense. And what is even worse is that it give outsiders the impression that all Christians are gullible fools, no different from the people who go to the theatres to see the latest greatest "mediums".
But there is one aspect of this that no-one has mentioned yet. In the Bible, there are two different types of people who see pictures. First of all, you have the likes of Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar, who see things but don't know what they mean. They need their visions interpreted because they are not Jews and do not know YHWH.
The second group of people are the ones who see visions and know precisely what they mean. Joseph, Daniel, the prophets, John the Revelator, etc. They don't need the visions interpreted because they already know God.
But what we see in charismatic circles these days are people who claim to know God and yet have visions that they don't understand.
Let me put this plainly:
God is NOT some sort of trickster who gives someone a "picture" and then leaves them to try and guess what is means. "Nope! That's not it. Warmer.. warmer.... No - now you're getting colder...."
If you think that this is what God is like, I suggest you go back to the Bible and think again. If you "have a picture" and wonder "what is God saying to me?" The answer will be "Nothing." If God wanted to say something to you, he would make sure you got the message.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
JJ, I think it's a false claim--at least in part. God speak to anyone who'll listen? God speaks to whomever he pleases and does what he pleases for his/her own reasons: he's God. If you accept that God is God, then all the stuff about aiming beams of prayer or receiving beams of prayer, or 'getting power' ["double the portion Lord!" I can recall Sandy Millar saying on a hundred occasions]. Portion? Again, here we are; with the assumption that we have magic powers given us by God... it just ain't there. And the refrain soon follows: "if only…". If only you had more faith [faith as power], if only you could reduce your spiritual blockages, if only you prayed in the right way... then God would unlock your magic powers! Someone at our local C of E evo church, only a few weeks ago, told God during the intercessory prayers that 'we' 'give you [God] permission to remove those obstacles in Parliament to preserving marriage' and so on. Who does she think she is? It may seem preposterous to some, but normal to others. If you live in a religious culture where you are assured that God in giving you your own language or sends you special pictures to share, then maybe you have collected enough special-power tokens to consider yourself in a position to give God permission to do your bidding. This kind of thing is totally normal in those circles. I've heard it thousands of times.
I'm sorry, Komensky, but with the exception of the Sandy Millar quote, which you might criticise for the arcane AV-esque language , but is at the very least scriptural (it's a quote from 2 Kings 2:9), I don't recognise this at all. Anyone suggesting that healing was other than an act of grace, independent of the "quantity" of faith of the person being prayed for, would be slapped down pdq.
Of course God is God, but part of his "Godness" is his fervent desire to communicate with us humans. How else are we to interpret "my sheep here my voice" and similar texts. Why would you think He does not want to communicate with His children.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I don't think that it's got much to do with New-Age thinking, to be honest ... but I think it has a lot to do with slip-shod theology and lazy terminology - plus an uncritical 'me-too' approach to popular (and often exaggerated testimonies).
There were plenty of these doing the rounds during the Toronto thing and most were quickly debunked - but it didn't stop people spreading these stories.
'Humankind can face very much reality'.
Oscar the Grouch has nailed it for me.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Robert Armin - THAT is going on my church members FB page ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Rhythm Methodist
Shipmate
# 17064
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Posted
Some interesting perspectives above, especially from those who had bought the Emperor’s new T shirt - and subsequently took it back to the shop.
One of the problems with ‘pictures’ is that they are so often merely symptomatic of a wider malaise: the ascendency of perceived experience over sound doctrine; the obsession with unverifiable or invented gifts (while the powerful scriptural ones seem to be so often unaccountably absent!) and the adoption of a whole truck-load of pseudo-spiritual baggage – much of which would be most properly categorized as superstition. It has not been without cost. For example, the same Pentecostal/Charismatic movement which brought us pictures, was also the willing host of that parasite on the body of Christ – the Prosperity Scam. Leaving aside the billions misdirected to the fraudsters every year, they have severely damaged the witness of the church – not least, because they portray it as laughably gullible. Then there is division – the rift in the church which widens with every new contrivance, every flaky ‘manifestation’ which is flagged-up as the latest move of God. Those who have the discernment to oppose this nonsense are often condemned as ‘unspiritual’.
But it isn’t a crime to lack discernment, and - in any event – it is remarkably easy to compensate for that deficiency, though only if one is willing. When some new teaching or ‘manifestation’ crops up, there are a number of questions to ask: Is it in line with God’s revealed nature; is there some reason why he would start doing this now, is there some reason he didn’t do it before, what does it say about God, what are the fruits of this manifestation, and who is promoting it and why?
As an example of how this can be helpful, the gold-fillings fiasco will serve well. This was (and probably still is) the belief that God miraculously changes people’s fillings from amalgam to gold. Let’s apply those tests: Is it really in line with God’s revealed nature to engage in completely pointless dentistry? There is no conceivable reason why he’d suddenly start doing that, and there is every reason why he didn’t do it before. It tells us that God is not only tacky and unimaginative, but that he also concedes that man’s design is superior to his – he could just replace the teeth, but fillings are better….as long as they are made of gold. There is no fruit whatsoever associated with this manifestation, other than bringing public ridicule on the body of Christ. It is promoted by known false teachers and false prophets, perhaps to enhance their standing among those who have no discernment.
Much the same could be said regarding any number of other modern fads – everything from ‘angel oil’ and Toronto-style manifestations, to gemstones from heaven and plastic glitter. I do wonder if the ‘Glitterati’ ever ask themselves why the Almighty God just can’t seem to find a sane or practical way of showing his approval.
The quality of any relationship is primarily a function of what we believe about the other party - whether that is the guy next door, or indeed, God himself – and of communication. If we believe he is now the God of platitudes, banalities, inaccuracy or hogwash – where once he offered us incisive and often life-changing prophecy – can we really claim to know him? If weird, opaque or trite pictures have replaced visions, what are we saying about God? And as for the garbage attributed to him by way of so-called manifestations – that’s really more the kind of guff you’d expect from Star Trek’s Q….but only if he was having a very bad (and rather unimaginative) day.
If ‘pictures’ were a stand-alone, one-off issue, we could just sadly shake our heads, tut a little, and perhaps try to help those affected to a better understanding. But pictures are so often indicative of a whole raft of baggage. The problem isn’t so much that people want to share whatever stuff has drifted into their minds, from whatever indeterminate source – even if they would like to think that source is divine. The problem is that with every year that passes, with every new teaching, manifestation, latest fad or superstition, there is a growing disparity between God’s authentic self-revelation, and what people are choosing to believe about him, and about his interactions with humanity.
As functional relationship is so dependent on what is believed regarding the other party, the more ‘made-up stuff’ which is taken on board, the more pronounced will become the estrangement…. even while people think these things are drawing them closer to God.
Posts: 202 | From: Wales | Registered: Apr 2012
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:
One of the problems with ‘pictures’ is that they are so often merely symptomatic of a wider malaise: the ascendency of perceived experience over sound doctrine; the obsession with unverifiable or invented gifts (while the powerful scriptural ones seem to be so often unaccountably absent!) and the adoption of a whole truck-load of pseudo-spiritual baggage – much of which would be most properly categorized as superstition.
Do you count other 'pictures' in this - paintings, sculptures, icons, stained glass windows etc?
How 'powerful and scriptural' are some of these?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:
One of the problems with ‘pictures’ is that they are so often merely symptomatic of a wider malaise: the ascendency of perceived experience over sound doctrine; the obsession with unverifiable or invented gifts (while the powerful scriptural ones seem to be so often unaccountably absent!) and the adoption of a whole truck-load of pseudo-spiritual baggage – much of which would be most properly categorized as superstition.
Do you count other 'pictures' in this - paintings, sculptures, icons, stained glass windows etc?
How 'powerful and scriptural' are some of these?
But Boogie, I can't imagine someone walking into a church with a painting of a fence and telling the congregation that God gave her/him this picture in their head, they painted it, and now think it necessary for everyone to see it with the understanding that it is a cryptic message from the Almighty.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:
As an example of how this can be helpful, the gold-fillings fiasco will serve well. This was (and probably still is) the belief that God miraculously changes people’s fillings from amalgam to gold. Let’s apply those tests: Is it really in line with God’s revealed nature to engage in completely pointless dentistry? There is no conceivable reason why he’d suddenly start doing that, and there is every reason why he didn’t do it before. It tells us that God is not only tacky and unimaginative, but that he also concedes that man’s design is superior to his – he could just replace the teeth, but fillings are better….as long as they are made of gold. There is no fruit whatsoever associated with this manifestation, other than bringing public ridicule on the body of Christ. It is promoted by known false teachers and false prophets, perhaps to enhance their standing among those who have no discernment.
Funny you should mention that. I heard about this when it first circulated 30 years ago and was equally sceptical but this Church Times article caused me to rethink; a 'sound liberal' had his nose totally put out of joint over what he could clearly see happening. It SERIOUSLY upsets him...
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I do think there is a place for things working on a 'gut' rather than a purely cognitive level. I've seen sufficient of the Orthodox veneration of icons to convince me of that. I've also experienced a sense of the numinous and even a very tangible 'presence' at times when I've been around Orthodox people doing that stuff ...
Heck, when I overcame my Protestant reluctance plunged in and followed suit, I certainly 'experienced' something ...
Whether this was an adrenalin surge at doing something that would be 'transgressive' from the the point of view of my own faith tradition within evangelicalism - I don't know. There was a buzz ... but a different kind of buzz to those I've experienced when doing charismatic stuff in the past.
The difference, I submit, is that however superstitious - or otherwise - Orthodox might become in the veneration of icons they remain aware that these are man-made objects (other than those which some of them believe to have been made by angels or by God) and that they are painted panels of wood and gesso that follow a particular pattern and tradition.
It's the same, I submit, with the eucharist. Whatever one's view of it - from snake-belly memorialist to full-on transubstantiation - it's bread and it's wine - as well as the Body and Blood of Christ (however understood).
I have no problem whatsoever with people using the kinds of analogies or allusions that they come up with in 'pictures' - provided they are not claiming over-much ... ie. why don't they just say, 'You know, I've had an interesting thought which you might find helpful ...'
It's the way that divine inspiration is brought into the equation and applied in a cavalier - and often irresponsible fashion - that bugs me.
I've said this before and I'll say it again, I'm involved with creative writing groups and have been involved in the past with brain-storming sessions for branding issues, straplines, advertising slogans and so on ... the process and results are very, very similar to what goes on in charismatic 'prophecy workshops' and similar.
Nobody would claim that McDonald's advertising people are divinely inspired if they came up with some clever ideas for a campaign. Why should we expect a bunch of numpties who meet to pray before an 11am service to come up with anything divinely inspired either? All they're doing is copying what they've seen 'modelled' or demonstrated at New Wine and other popular charismatic conventions.
It's 'landfill' ... disposal, pap, cod-spirituality and very poor theology.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
These stories are evidence of nothing more than people having some kind of dental work. There have been efforts to prove them, but not a single one verified. Moreover, those who cooperated with the doubters were either revealed to be fraudsters or themselves victims of fraudsters.
Forget about the Signs and Wimbers--it's total nonsense.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Sorry for the cross-post; mine was in reply to the link posted by Ender's Shadow.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ender's Shadow, Andrew Walker wrote an interesting article about this a while back here on Ship-of-Fools - on the Magazine bit rather than the bulletin and discussion boards.
Some kindly host might provide a link.
If I remember rightly, he was more open to the idea of this sort of thing happening in developing countries where there was less access to affordable dental treatment. Interestingly enough, I'd long ago heard stories from Elim Pentecostal evangelists about incidences of this kind apparently happening in London's East End in the 1920s.
I've even heard an Orthodox guy tell me something (not involving gold-teeth) very convincing and goose-bump inducing, about something he had experienced (before his Orthodox conversion) as an earnest evangelical on a favella rubbish-dump in Brazil.
What Walker, and others, object to is the way this stuff becomes faddish and almost some kind of form of spiritual entertainment for middle-class Western Christians.
What the bloke in the Church Times article experienced may or may not have been the real thing - we don't know. All that glisters ...
Assuming that it was, for a moment, the real deal, it hardly justifies the kind of things that go on in contemporary charismatic circles - most of which are trite and over-egged.
I'd keep an open mind on some of this stuff. I'm sure there are genuine examples of certain phenomena out there ... but equally I'm sure that many of them can be explained rationally.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
A pattern worth keeping your eye on at present is the number of former charismatics who are debunking the practices about which we are speaking. At least one former member of the Bethel bunch in California has teamed up with Derren Brown to explain how and why charismatic phenomena occur--he helps explain how people are hoodwinked. I'm interested to see the programme, trailed here.
There are a number of other examples. Some of these former charismatics never return to any kind of church, some find solace in other churches.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Wasn't that on last Easter? Or a previous Easter?
Surely it's been screened already?
My own experience of people who get into Bethel-style stuff is that they either burn out and get out of it or else they stick with it and explain away anything that doesn't neatly fit into the formula ... it has ever been thus.
Sadly, a lot of people damaged by these types of churches don't end up in any kind of church at all.
But then, that applies to the mainstream churches too ... there are lots of disillusioned RCs around, for instance ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Waterchaser
Shipmate
# 11005
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Posted
Komensky you also seem to have got where this Woody Woods fellow came from wrong as it looks from navigating his site like he was an assistent pastor in two fundamentalist penetecostal churches in North Wales from 1991 -2007, rather than hanging out in California. He also looks like he is now a fairly passionate athiest and a bit of a Dawkins fan.
My understanding of "getting a picture" has been widened recently by a friend who has received some specific/concrete (not metaphor) pictures for individuals in a one on one evangelistic setting, that the person receiving them has confirmed to be relevent and accurate and been surprised by....
He is totally genuine and sincere in doing this, I know he is aware he is taking the risk of looking a total fool in doing this (and like most normal people he is uncomfortable about making a fool of himself in a one on one setting with total strangers.)
I also believe that the very general metaphorical pictures that are not impressive can also be from God - I don't reckon most of the time when God "speaks" he is trying to convince us he is real. Personally I think God has spoken to me in this way before ...but I only believe this because I already believe God speaks in different ways, the contents of the pictures would not be sufficient to convince me of this if I didn't believe in a God who speaks already.
Posts: 310 | From: Luton, UK | Registered: Feb 2006
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
This thread is reminding me of Jeremiah 23 vv28-29: "Let the prophet who has a dream tell the dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in faithfulness. What has straw in common with wheat? says the Lord. Is not my Word like fire, says the Lord, and like a hammer which breaks rock in pieces?"
I agree with Gamaliel, most of the "pictures" and "words" which get proffered in certain church circles are unadulterated rubbish. But my own very, very limited experience of a true message from God is that you couldn't possibly mistake it for anything else.
Of course there are real visions, real prophecies and real revelations and they can come through pictures just as much as through words. But as Jeremiah said, and as someone posted upthread, when it happens it's overwhelming and the person receiving it can be knocked about like a rock under a hammer.
God also indicates in that passage that He's not keen on people spouting their own thoughts in His name.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Barneybus
Apprentice
# 14855
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Posted
When at theological college a friend was given a placement at a charismatic church. On the Monday morning the tears were rolling down his face as he recounted the 'picture' given at the Sunday evening service.
A woman came forward to describe her picture, She said, "I saw the world, and on top of the world was an octopus (representing God) and his testicles were embracing the whole world."
Interesting!
Posts: 3 | From: Lancashire | Registered: Jun 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Heh! Heh! Heh!
We've not heard from some of the more full-on charismatics for a while. I know that Jolly Jape and Ramarius are pretty sensible and moderate. But I'd be interested in their responses to some of the things those of us who are more sceptical - or at least wary - have been saying.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Actually Barneybus, you've hit on another aspect here. What strikes me about a lot of these so called 'pictures' and 'words' is that all they do is echo or reinforce what we already know. Sure, there might be a point in that at times, but do we really need to behold a picture of an octopus with tentacles (or otherwise ) to tell us that God's love embraces the world?
We know that from our Bibles. We know that from received tradition. What's the point of having a half-baked 'picture' to reinforce it?
It doesn't make any sense.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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