|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: School closures
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
And the same surely applies to most other working people who would tend to have far less in terms of holiday time. If I want to have a workman in, go to the quack or the tooth-puller etc, I have to take time out of work with the resultant loss of productivity and therefore pay unless I manage to make the time up elsewhere.
Actually that's not really comparing like with like. Most people are able to book a day off - either out of their holiday allocation, or losing a day's pay for it - more or less any time during the year. Teachers can only do so, as Leo says, in holiday time... while a parent's funeral or something equally serious might be a reason for time off, I doubt if most head teachers would look favourably at a request even to attend to a burst pipe, let alone an IKEA delivery. And I can only imagine the response you would get from a builder or electrician asked if he would start work at teatime!
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Think, too, of all the other stuff - I cannot get a plumber, electrician, delivery etc. except in holiday time. Or else hire them in term time, lose a day's pay AND pay the school £170 per day to get a supply teacher.
Really? Assuming school finishes at 4.00pm (probably on the late side) and allowing 30 minutes for your seven mile drive home, is it really impossible to arrange your work so that on one occasion you leave work immediately after the end of the school day and schedule an electrician, plumber, etc. for late afternoon? (Assuming you can't find an electrician, etc. who works evenings, which you should be able to.)
Usually in meetings until 5pm.
Don't drive - 75 mins bus journey home.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
And the same surely applies to most other working people who would tend to have far less in terms of holiday time. If I want to have a workman in, go to the quack or the tooth-puller etc, I have to take time out of work with the resultant loss of productivity and therefore pay unless I manage to make the time up elsewhere.
Actually that's not really comparing like with like. Most people are able to book a day off - either out of their holiday allocation, or losing a day's pay for it - more or less any time during the year. Teachers can only do so, as Leo says, in holiday time... while a parent's funeral or something equally serious might be a reason for time off,
Indeed - wasn't able to go to any funeral for anyone other than immediate family. Not even close friend.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Cover is included in professional association membership - as is absence from work if it occurred whilst on the way to or from school.
Just admit that you made an erroneous claim.
Schools/headteachers are not liable when teachers travel to and from school. Any claims for accidents on such journeys would be covered by private car insurance, and in terms of absence from work may or may not be covered by union insurance. Schools insure against long term teacher absence so this may be what you are thinking about.
I passed on my union rep. file to my successor so i cannot say any more than what i remember.
You, as a governor,have access to the Burgundy Book - then again, free schools and academies tend to TUPE staff over then tear up its rules.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
|
Posted
FYI... schools in my county (in Virginia) are closed today due to 2 inches of snow. my office (and most offices) were open. it happens all the time. we deal with it.
not that I'm complaining.. my (federal) job allows me to work from home on days like this.
many very happy teens around here.. it was supposed to be an exam day! an extra day to study.. or procrastinate studying as the case may be. I think someone was praying extra hard last night.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
Getting to school/work should never be the priority imo - safety should.
Here is a terrible and sad example of what can happen in this weather.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]
1. Working conditions? When was the last time you looked at the state of some of our school buildings?
2. 'More holidays'? I used to take one week off in the summer and a couple of days over Xmas. The rest got used for preparation and work-related reading.
'Secure employment?' not since local management where redundancies happen according to pupil numbers and there is no longer early retirement except on actuarily reduced pensions
1. For a long time I worked outside whatever the weather, snow and ice included. Anyway elf and safety mean the buildings and working conditions will always be ok, or they'd be closed. Actaully I was looking wider than that: pensions, training course, tiem out of classrooms.
2. Well, you're alone in my experience of the teaching profession on that score. You also seem unable to do the work in the same time frame as your colleagues. Martyr to the cause or inefficient?
3. Well, schools did want the market economy and what you refer to is part of supply and demand. So you'd want teachers sitting round doing nothing or not working to capacity, wasting money and resources?
Pensions? Well, welcome to the world of the private sector worker. Why on earth should anyone get a full poension if they haven't paid in for it? It's not an injustice that it's been removed, it's an injustice that it was ever allowed to happen.
4. What on earth is the Burgundy book anyway? Why do I need to know about wine when we are talking about schools?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE] ndeed - wasn't able to go to any funeral for anyone other than immediate family. Not even close friend.
Must be a rule your school applied on an individual basis then. No school I've been Governor of has applied such a rule.
As for the holiday stuff (Angloid), I can only reiterate that it is known upfront by pretty much 100% of the UK's population.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE] ndeed - wasn't able to go to any funeral for anyone other than immediate family. Not even close friend.
Must be a rule your school applied on an individual basis then. No school I've been Governor of has applied such a rule.
Not individual - it is in the Burgundy Book that governs conditions of service.
Maybe your schools are the sort who opt out of LA control and tear up these conditions.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Well, you're alone in my experience of the teaching profession on that score. .... Well, schools did want the market economy .....What on earth is the Burgundy book anyway? Why do I need to know about wine when we are talking about schools?
So you must know some fairly uncommitted teachers.
We didn't want LMS - all the unions opposed it back in 1988 when Baker imposed it.
A school governor who doesn't know what the Burgundy Book is must be either:
a) a fairly clueless governor who doesn't know what s/he is talking out
or
b) a governor who wants to exploit staff by ignoring pay and conditions of service
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Well, you're alone in my experience of the teaching profession on that score. You also seem unable to do the work in the same time frame as your colleagues. Martyr to the cause or inefficient?
Also, my professional association once did a survey on working hours - the average was 50 hours per week in term time and 40 in holiday time
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]1. I have never worked for Bristol.
2. Education Secretary Michael Gove recently pledged to give schools the right to punish pupils for out-of-school behaviour, but that right already exists. Some would argue it has existed in common law since Victorian times when children could be caned for not wearing a cap on the way to school. In any case, the 2006 Education Act states that schools can "regulate the behaviour of pupils when off school premises". …. guidance also implies that schools should primarily concern themselves with off-site behaviour that has a clear link to school rules or an impact on school life. Examples given include bullying another pupil, problems on school transport or incidents that occur when pupils are in uniform
3. Discipline outside the school
School rules can be made to regulate, as far as is reasonable, pupil behaviour outside of school when the pupil is not in the control of a member of staff. There is, however, no definition of 'reasonable' - this must be a judgement made by the governors and the head, who must be clear about the factors that they take into account. Any sanctions imposed must happen while the pupil is actually on school grounds
1. Apologies for the geographical error.
2. "pledged to give ......can regulate .... a clear link to school rules." Not statutory then - have you ever heard of it being done? Not that long ago I had reason to challenge this personally on an issue of bullying, amounting technically to assault. I was told by all concerned (school, social services and police)that the school could no nothing. The police weren't interested either. Even in uniform it's off school premises and it wasn't repeated on the premises.
3. "School rules can be made to regulate..." It falls down because it isn't implicit - it has to be accepted - what head/school in their right mind would do that? What is "reasonable" anyway. It means nothing as there are so many get outs.
None of this says that the head has the kind of responsibility you have claimed for them. Santions may be available for behaviour and that's about it. Does anyone know of any school that applies this?
My kids' school (Scottish state comprehensive) deals with behaviour problems on school transport. The bus driver, or any pupil on board, can report to the school and have a matter dealt with. I have known this to happen on more than one occasion.
Similarly, school pupils who leave the school premises at lunchtime, to buy sweets, or generally hang out, would be dealt with by the school if they misbehaved.
Are you really suggesting, Exclamation Mark, that you would expect pupils to be able to misbehave with impunity, provided they're not on school premises? Seriously?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
Perhaps we just have unruly kids. If the headteacher couldn't deal with miscreants, the school buses here would be like "Lord of the Flies" Kids would be sharpening sticks at both ends while waiting at the bus stop!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
3. Well, schools did want the market economy
![[Confused]](confused.gif) ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) Which schools? Or rather, by schools maybe you mean power-crazed head teachers (there are a few) or Tory governors. There are many instances of schools being forced into academy status despite the overwhelming opposition of staff and parents... and even, now Gove has his evil way, overriding heads and governors.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]Also, my professional association once did a survey on working hours - the average was 50 hours per week in term time and 40 in holiday time
Leo, you are just so removed from ordinary people's lives aren't you?
There are plenty of people who have worked 50 hour weeks for 48 weeks each year for 40 years. When I was a labourer it was never less than a 10 hour day, 6 days a week. Any holiday was unpaid, so people rarely took them as they had to earn a living wage and there wasn't enough to pay for a holiday left over. Bank holidays were a pain because you weren't working and no work meant no pay.
In the city, the worst week ever was 8 hours sleeo in 7 days. The rest of the time was work.
Most ministers average 65 + for 47 weeks a year. On bad weeks it can be 75+.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
When I was a labourer it was never less than a 10 hour day, 6 days a week. Any holiday was unpaid, so people rarely took them as they had to earn a living wage and there wasn't enough to pay for a holiday left over. .
How old are you Exclamation Mark? It must be a long time since ordinary workers didn't have the whole of Saturday off, or at least the afternoons. And the Holiday Pay Act came in in 1938.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
Perhaps Exclamation Mark was a casual labourer, hired by the day or the week. If so, he would not have been paid sick or holiday leave.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
My kids' school (Scottish state comprehensive) deals with behaviour problems on school transport. The bus driver, or any pupil on board, can report to the school and have a matter dealt with. I have known this to happen on more than one occasion.
Similarly, school pupils who leave the school premises at lunchtime, to buy sweets, or generally hang out, would be dealt with by the school if they misbehaved.
I think that's a good balance. The school-provided (or at least school-contracted) transport is clearly within the bounds of the school's responsibility, no question there. The behaviour of senior students who are allowed to leave the grounds during breaks is an issue of whether students are abusing privileges which could be withdrawn.
It would, however, be extremely unfair for a school to sanction a student who behaved badly in some other context that has nothing to do with the school. If the school wants power over all aspects of a student's life, they should first be prepared to be responsible on that level.
That's not to say it would be out of line for a school to tip off the police or assist a transport authority in identifying a uniformed student. That's a responsible attitude to that power, using it to assist the organisations who are the appropriate authorities rather than assuming that authority.
A school that has the power to discipline students but wields it fairly and is seen to wield it fairly will have a lot more respect from students and families.
The best example I can think of with this is a dispute over the use of a public car parking area outside the school boundary next to a pitch used by a local youth soccer club when I was in year 11. Some staff at the school particularly liked those spots because they were more convenient to their area of the campus than the staff parking areas, so they would tell students to shift their cars under threat of internal sanctions. The students responded by buying up a bucketload of non-playing memberships in the soccer club (the club loved the extra income, and that some did actually then take up playing membership!) and then repeatedly complained to the local council about not being to access 'their' parking facility once they had their shiny new club bumper stickers. Council then put up a sign restricting the car park to soccer club members only (on the basis that it's a legislated requirement for public schools to have sufficient parking for all staff so they shouldn't need to park elsewhere) and started enforcing it against those teachers who thought it was a student prank and that they could still throw their weight around on a whim.
All of that nastiness could have been avoided if the school staff had simply chosen not to unilaterally abuse their power to hand out internal sanctions for external issues, especially while being in the wrong. The soccer pitch car park is still technically reserved for club members' use over ten years on, and turnover has gotten those bullying teachers out of the school. I'm told it's used far more reasonably by a smaller number of staff now, and that the number of complaints to the council parking hotline (and subsequent parking fines) by soccer club members has dropped off.
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Well, you're alone in my experience of the teaching profession on that score. You also seem unable to do the work in the same time frame as your colleagues. Martyr to the cause or inefficient?
Also, my professional association once did a survey on working hours - the average was 50 hours per week in term time and 40 in holiday time
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Interested groups are interested.
[ 25. January 2013, 03:25: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]
--------------------
If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
Eight hours a day, plus at least an hour in the evening, often two - plus at least four hours at weekends.
This is true for every member of our teaching staff. Not me any more, praise the Lord.
Teaching is a young person's game these days.
[ 25. January 2013, 05:43: Message edited by: Boogie ]
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
[QUOTE]How old are you Exclamation Mark? It must be a long time since ordinary workers didn't have the whole of Saturday off, or at least the afternoons. And the Holiday Pay Act came in in 1938.
I'm 55. And, yes, I was self employed at the time (and after), in the absence of paid work. Some people did that for many years.
The less you are paid, the more you have to work to get even the basic necessities.
Farm Labourers worked Saturday mornings as part of their contracted time, until the mid 1970's.
[ 25. January 2013, 07:22: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Well, you're alone in my experience of the teaching profession on that score. You also seem unable to do the work in the same time frame as your colleagues. Martyr to the cause or inefficient?
Also, my professional association once did a survey on working hours - the average was 50 hours per week in term time and 40 in holiday time
When I was in training and newly qualified, I typically worked a 70 hour week.
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
I'm not sure that it is any use flinging around statistics and anecdotes about comparative working hours. Why not just admit that teachers do work long hours? And more than that, like clergy, besides the time they are actually doing something observable, like teaching or marking or attending meetings, they need a lot of time for reflection and study. A good teacher, like a good priest, is never off duty.
I'm sure many of today's super-rich executives put in insane hours of activity, but their financial return is even more insanely high compared to a teacher or even a humble lawyer like Matt Black.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
Less of the humble, thank you; I have my pride, you know!
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Less of the humble, thank you; I have my pride, you know!
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) OK! But I didn't think you were particularly rich.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
No, unfortunately
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Well, you're alone in my experience of the teaching profession on that score. You also seem unable to do the work in the same time frame as your colleagues. Martyr to the cause or inefficient?
Also, my professional association once did a survey on working hours - the average was 50 hours per week in term time and 40 in holiday time
When I was in training and newly qualified, I typically worked a 70 hour week.
I did about 70 hours each week for 32 years. RE teachers' workload much higher than those from other subjects.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
RE teachers' workload much higher than those from other subjects.
--------------------
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
Try telling THAT to the Head of Music! Or Sport! A large proportion of their activities takes place outside the school day.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
RE staff get higher number of pupils with Gove's silly EBac, we are going back to the one lesson per week scenario. On the old 40 period week, allowing for 5 frees, s/he might get 35 lessons x 30 pupils each = 1,050 kids - i.e. the lone specialist teaching the entire school.
When i started teaching, the only 'textbooks' found in most stock cupboards were bibles. Nothing on world religions - so i had to write all my own materials and banda them.
For anyone who is ahead of the game, standard textbooks never keep up with what one wants to do.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
RE staff get higher number of pupils with Gove's silly EBac, we are going back to the one lesson per week scenario. On the old 40 period week, allowing for 5 frees, s/he might get 35 lessons x 30 pupils each = 1,050 kids - i.e. the lone specialist teaching the entire school.
When i started teaching, the only 'textbooks' found in most stock cupboards were bibles. Nothing on world religions - so i had to write all my own materials and banda them.
For anyone who is ahead of the game, standard textbooks never keep up with what one wants to do.
You are the perfect argument as to why Gove is right.
My yr9 daughter has just started Humanities (which she has been told includes RE) after the RE teacher retired. My only encounter with the RE teacher was when, at a parents' evening I saw her shoving Jewsh prayer caps onto children's heads to entertain prospective parents. My yr7 son has RE but it doesn't seemed to have grabbed his attention. So what.
I thought for one moment about complaining that RE was no longer taught at Yr9 then visualised you teaching my children and decided to leave well alone. Sorry, but I can't regard Re as an important subject when one of its professed luminaries posts like you do.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
|
Posted
Please be tolerant if the following is misinformed. My children are growing up in a country whose education system is, I am told, very good. Because moving back to England remains an option for my family I am curious about how its schools are faring - and the same measures that say NZ schools are good also say that UK schools (including English ones) are poor.
An example here.
There are certain aspects to the system and the bureaucracy it entails which strike me as really quite baffling: SEN, for example, which seems to encourage the pathologisation of children's individual quirks and issues and to straightjacket schools' ability to handle them into a specified set of responses.
So while I can understand why Gove's attacks on teachers' pay and working conditions make him unpopular and while I can understand gimmicks like putting an Authorised Version in every school offend the sensibilities of some, I cannot understand why he is so universally reviled.
Take the EBAC for example; which I understand as a method of measuring pupils' and schools' performance in core subjects, and a safeguard against schools putting their pupils into easy subjects. If one must have such measures, this seems entirely sensible.
Take his promotion of school autonomy. From where I sit it seems to me that teachers in England have little discretion as to what to teach and how to teach it. Hence, they cannot do their job as professionals. If Gove wants to grant schools greater autonomy, shouldn't that be a welcome change?
Or the policy of moving away from modules and towards end-of-course exams: once again, this allows greater flexibility in how to teach - one is not restricted to bite-sized modules.
Foreign languages: in the years to come, speaking a second language is going to be far more important than it has been hitherto. Surely Gove is right to make them mandatory once again.
There are other things such as phonics which seem to have become something of a fetish (NZ teaches something called synthetic phonics, which appears to work better) and I wonder if some of his reforms are wrapped up with some shrewd "back-to-basics" marketing, but the above strike me as very good things.
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I did about 70 hours each week for 32 years. RE teachers' workload much higher than those from other subjects.
I've long reached the conclusion that if I were to believe everything people say about their jobs then I would have to conclude that a) everyone works every weekend except for me and b) everyone is doing really, really well except for me.
--------------------
"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
RE staff get higher number of pupils with Gove's silly EBac, we are going back to the one lesson per week scenario. On the old 40 period week, allowing for 5 frees, s/he might get 35 lessons x 30 pupils each = 1,050 kids - i.e. the lone specialist teaching the entire school.
When i started teaching, the only 'textbooks' found in most stock cupboards were bibles. Nothing on world religions - so i had to write all my own materials and banda them.
For anyone who is ahead of the game, standard textbooks never keep up with what one wants to do.
You are the perfect argument as to why Gove is right.
My yr9 daughter has just started Humanities (which she has been told includes RE) after the RE teacher retired. My only encounter with the RE teacher was when, at a parents' evening I saw her shoving Jewsh prayer caps onto children's heads to entertain prospective parents. My yr7 son has RE but it doesn't seemed to have grabbed his attention. So what.
I thought for one moment about complaining that RE was no longer taught at Yr9 then visualised you teaching my children and decided to leave well alone. Sorry, but I can't regard Re as an important subject when one of its professed luminaries posts like you do.
Misusing sacred artefacts is highly unprofessional - sounds like the 'RE teacher' was a non-specialist and, therefore, had no training.
As for 'humanities', submerging RE into other subjects is usually a disaster and i have always opposed it.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I did about 70 hours each week for 32 years. RE teachers' workload much higher than those from other subjects.
I've long reached the conclusion that if I were to believe everything people say about their jobs then I would have to conclude that a) everyone works every weekend except for me and b) everyone is doing really, really well except for me.
It is simple arithmetic - if you look at the pupil caseload figures i gave above.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I did about 70 hours each week for 32 years. RE teachers' workload much higher than those from other subjects.
I've long reached the conclusion that if I were to believe everything people say about their jobs then I would have to conclude that a) everyone works every weekend except for me and b) everyone is doing really, really well except for me.
Sorry but Leo is quite right, to an extent. When I was teaching as an RE specialist (I'm currently on a career break whilst I got over my differences with SM (homophobic bitches!), discern my vocation with the Church, and generally try to keep my sanity) I would see pretty much the entire school in my working week, whilst also monitoring what the few none specialists got upto to ensure everything was hunky-dorey - one of the problems that not having to have a specialist teach the subject, the department gets little attention in terms of staffing in most schools.
Whilst I set my workload to be as manageable as possible (I refused to put in more than a certain number of hours a week outside of teaching time) when it came to report season, parent evenings, DRIPs, resource and schemes of work updating etc. etc. my workload seemed to increase exponentially in comparison to other teachers around me.
However RS teachers are not the only ones in this boat, music and art teachers tend to find themselves somewhere close, but these subjects are not usually overseen by only one specialist in the department - which helps to reduce not only the teaching load, but also the administrative load as well.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
I can't regard Re as an important subject
Am I right in thinking that you are a governor?
If so, are you aware that primary trainee teachers get a mere 2 hours devoted to RE in the whole of a 4 year B. Ed. or a one-year PGCE?
As a governor, when did you last press for INSET in RE for your teachers?
I was one of the organisers of such an INSET course yesterday. The primary teachers were lapping it up. One of the most important events I am involved in all year - its being in its 33rd year now - I have been to them all.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
You are the perfect argument as to why Gove is right.
This thread is very strange. This group of 'Christian unrest' has largely been devoted to teacher-bashing. In the outside world, when asked to rank professions in terms of trustworthiness, teachers come out high up.
Journalists, however, come out very low down.
Teachers went into our careers for the love of our subject and 'for the kids.'
I suppose that journalists went into theirs for the love of truth.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I suppose that journalists went into theirs for the love of truth.
The journalists I know went into it because they love to write and they have a love of words.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Pity they didn't write novels instead of photographing members of the royal family in various states of undress then.
Hmmm - are photographers journalists?
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sleepwalker
Shipmate
# 15343
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
When I was a labourer it was never less than a 10 hour day, 6 days a week. Any holiday was unpaid, so people rarely took them as they had to earn a living wage and there wasn't enough to pay for a holiday left over. .
How old are you Exclamation Mark? It must be a long time since ordinary workers didn't have the whole of Saturday off, or at least the afternoons. And the Holiday Pay Act came in in 1938.
That Act doesn't apply to agency workers, for example. Theoretically they are available for work seven days a week and although paid annual leave does accrue (a right only applied to agency workers relatively recently), and thanks to the present government it is now a day one right, agencies only ever pay a percentage of the time you work as they claim that since everyone works different hours 'a day' does not actually mean 7.5 hours, for instance, even if your working day actually IS 7.5 hours (as set by the client you are working for). Sick leave continues to be unpaid and if you don't have enough paid annual leave accrued, bank holidays would be unpaid also.
[ 26. January 2013, 19:37: Message edited by: Sleepwalker ]
Posts: 267 | From: somewhere other than here | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Pity they didn't write novels instead of photographing members of the royal family in various states of undress then.
Hmmm - are photographers journalists?
If you're being pedantic, some journalists are photographers.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
]Sorry but Leo is quite right, to an extent.
I am sure that he is right - to an extent.
In the meantime, does no-one wish to respond to my comments on Gove?
--------------------
"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
Or the policy of moving away from modules and towards end-of-course exams: once again, this allows greater flexibility in how to teach - one is not restricted to bite-sized modules.
Plenty of very intelligent dyslexic pupils have benefited from modular assessment. The return to end of course exams will simply cut hundreds of bright, creative people out of the loop. This saddens me as we have come a long way in promoting dyslexia friendly schools and assessment systems.
While schools are controlled by politicians systems will swing from one extreme to the other so that those politicians will be seen to be "doing something".
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
|
Posted
Cod: quote:
In the meantime, does no-one wish to respond to my comments on Gove?
Well, where do we start...
Let's see. He claims to want to give schools greater autonomy, but actually the 'free' schools programme is another ideologically-motivated attempt to chip away at the power of local education authorities. Free schools and academies are directly accountable to the Department for Education, so they are not free from political control; au contraire, as the French would say. This school in London, for example, has been forced to convert to academy status against the wishes of the majority of parents and teachers. There is obviously more to the story than meets the eye, but it is clear from his behaviour in this instance that when Gove says he wants schools to have more autonomy he doesn't mean they should have freedom to do things he disapproves of.
And the much-vaunted 'EBacc' is simply another straitjacket for the curriculum, designed to force all GCSE students to study subjects that Mr Gove remembers from his own schooldays. Making foreign languages compulsory again was a good move, but leaving computer science off the list of approved subjects was not. Music and art and design are not included in the EBacc, despite considerable evidence that these subjects - especially music - enhance learning in other areas. The previous government's attempts to improve vocational courses have simply been ignored, with the result that students who are not particularly good at academic subjects have nothing to engage their interest. So we're back to an 'all or nothing' round of exams at the end of most courses, which is More Rigorous (that's code for Harder To Pass), regardless of the fact that a three-hour written exam is neither the best way of testing knowledge of most subjects nor a realistic representation of how knowledge is used in (most of) the real world.
Oh, and synthetic phonics (as used in New Zealand) IS the phonics system that is being used in English schools. The problems with it have been mentioned before many times, but let's just go for two at the moment. The first is that the English national curriculum is very restrictive; teachers are supposed to teach synthetic phonics only, in a particular way, ignoring any children in the class who might find another approach easier or who have begun learning to read using a different system. I attribute the fact that my daughter (currently with a reading ability 2 years ahead of her chronological age) had problems with reading when she began school to this - because her nursery used different names for all the letters.
The second problem with using a purely phonetic approach to teaching reading in English is of course that the English spelling system is morphophonemic, not purely phonemic, and the regularities within it are obscured by large numbers of 'exceptions'. Phonics alone will only get you so far, and 'phonemic awareness' is developed as a result of learning to read an alphabetic system, not beforehand. See for example this summary on the Warwick University website.
Gove obviously has very clear ideas about what he wants to do with the education system. Most of them seem to involve turning the clock back thirty years or so. This may be popular with the core Tory vote (many of whom were at school themselves thirty years ago and firmly believe educational standards have been declining steadily since then), but a lot of the things he is doing are likely to make things worse instead of better.
And according to this, the UK's education system is sixth best in the world. We don't fare quite so well in the OECD rankings, but sixth best (second best in Europe) isn't bad at all. You'd never guess it from Michael Gove and the media, though.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
And according to this, the UK's education system is sixth best in the world.
Heh. The key metric in that ranking appears to be how many school leavers go on to university - and given that recent governments have been happy to declare any old shack that accepts school leavers with two "F" grades at A-Level onto its food preparation course a university it's hardly surprising that we're ranking highly on it. It doesn't mean we're actually any good, it just means we did a fair job of fudging the figures.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
Or the policy of moving away from modules and towards end-of-course exams: once again, this allows greater flexibility in how to teach - one is not restricted to bite-sized modules.
Plenty of very intelligent dyslexic pupils have benefited from modular assessment. The return to end of course exams will simply cut hundreds of bright, creative people out of the loop. This saddens me as we have come a long way in promoting dyslexia friendly schools and assessment systems.
While schools are controlled by politicians systems will swing from one extreme to the other so that those politicians will be seen to be "doing something".
Not just dyslexic students but any student who find a particular subject a struggle - so most students. I struggled with both maths and science (science because of the maths content) at school, and did much better in science because it was modular.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
That's the point. These are exams that are designed to separate the students into different classes. If you struggled with maths (or any other subject) you are meant to fail it.
Its not about teaching. They don't want to help you learn more than you otherwise might have. That's not what the Tories think secondary schools are for. Or at least, not what exams are for.
[ 29. January 2013, 14:54: Message edited by: ken ]
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
That's the point. These are exams that are designed to separate the students into different classes. If you struggled with maths (or any other subject) you are meant to fail it.
Isn't that the whole point of grading work in the first place? If you think everybody should pass regardless of whether they're actually any good at the subject then why bother even marking it?
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
