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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Pope Resigns
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
Paddy Power bookmakers in the UK will now let you back Richard Dawkins to be the next p***. The odds are 666/1....
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Hmmm - to quote Edmund "The Black Adder" Duke of Edinburgh - "They tend to go for religious types."
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Which reminds me, I do h*** whoever does the announcing for the bunch who get to do the choosing will start, in the manner of Richard IV, "I have, in conversation with the Lord God, his son, Jesus Christ, and their ... insubstantial friend, the Holy G****..."
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Adrian1
Shipmate
# 3994
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Posted
From my blog last night:
This morning the world was stunned to learn that ******** XVI will be stepping down at the end of this month because his strength is no longer equal to bearing what is, admittedly, a burdensome office. Although not unknown in the distant past, the resignation of a P*** is unprecedented in modern times and, for that reason alone, has taken us quite by surprise.
When as C******* Ratzinger, P*** ******** was elected in 2005, anxieties were raised in many quarters on account of his conservative instincts and historic role as a disciplinarian enforcer of rules within the Vatican. In the main those anxieties have proved groundless and the disciplinarian has shown himself to have a pastoral heart. Without disowning the reforms of Vatican II, P*** ******** has restated the value of the Friday fast and allowed the traditional Tridentine Latin Mass to be celebrated freely. Our only regret is that it's referred to as the “extra ordinary form” when in fact, prior to Vatican II, it was normative. Through the Ordinariate he has shown tremendous generosity and graciousness to ex-A*******s who, unable to accept the ordination of women, have been enabled to find a way forward in communion with the Holy See without entirely forsaking their traditional liturgical forms. At the same time P*** ******** has maintained ***n and generous ecumenical relationships with other churches, something for which the world must be grateful. Most importantly he has provided stability and continuity at a time when both have been badly needed.
It takes a wise and courageous man to step down from what would ordinarily be a lifelong office, because his health no longer allows him to fulfil its duties to his satisfaction. P*** ******** is just such a man. Whatever he asks of others we can be sure that asks more of himself, and the decision cannot have been an easy one. At his election as P*** he had already passed the age when most Roman C******* clergy can lay claim to a well earned retirement. We cannot reproach him if, at the age of eighty five, he no longer feels equal to the demands of what is, by any standard of measurement, a difficult job. As he prepares to lay down his charge, we wish this Servant of the Servants of God, a well earned rest. Well done, thou good and faithful servant!
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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue
Posts: 1986 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I have a long list of problems with him as the guy warming Pete's chair. (Sorry, but that gets me around the H/A censors!)
But he's seemed ill and in great distress for some time. So retiring is probably a very good idea. On that score, I wish him well.
Someone upthread mentioned they'd like to see the Dalai Lama take the job. Occurred to me, too! However, he, too, is elderly and (IIRC) unwell, and worried about the chaos and violence that may happen when he dies. I know that, at one time, he h***d to retire to a monastery. Maybe they can be roomies?
I'm wondering if maybe one reason for staying in that little city inside the big city is legal protection? If anyone decided to come after him via civil law, he'd probably have far more protection and unextraditability there. (In the past, people talked about getting him into court re the abuse mess.) Or maybe he's simply too ill to go anywhere else??
And now, a word from Martial , the epigram man:
quote:
V, lxxiii
Non donem tibi cur meos libellos
oranti totiens et exigenti
miraris, Theodore? Magna causa est:
dones tu mihi ne tuos libellos.
You wonder, Theodorus, why I don't give my little books
to you, begging and so often demanding?
I've got a great reason:
So that you don't send me your books.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) (re the epigram)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
I really do have a lot of time for Buddhist-Chr*st!an dialogue because I feel there is a lot to have a dialogue about, but proposing the Dalai Lama for the ***n job in question was a joke, dear.
He for one cannot resign...he is Chenrezig, and will forever incarnate -as long as there is suffering.
[ 12. February 2013, 11:43: Message buggered about with by: Desert Daughter ]
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
{Tangent}
DD--
Yes, I do know it was a joke! I was half-joking.
Actually, he's said he's more of a manifestation of the bodhisattva (Avaloketishvara??) than an incarnation. And it's been said that if he weren't the Dalai Lama, he'd be considered a heretic.
Plus he's said that he'll resign if anyone tries a violent revolution against the Chinese.
Epigram:
What is mind? Never matter.
What is matter? Never mind.
What is the soul? It is immaterial.
--Hood
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Gawd CL you sound so A n g l i c a n with your posturing and division of people into goodies (those who agree with meeeeeeee) and baddies (all the others).
Which, of course, is something the Ecclesial Community of Rome never does.
(Trying to find other words for Church!)
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
I know that whoever it is will be the p*** of the Roman C******* church, but given the role of this position internationally, I wonder whether only members of that church would be considered.
Yes, and while we are at it, as Eur***an I would like to elect the next POTUS.
I rolled my eyes at The Scrumpmeister's post as well, but admit it, we might all be better off if the EU elected the next POTUS, given some of the choices Americans have made.
I was surprised to hear that BXVI* plans to take up residence in a vacant convent in the Vatican. Seems to me like it would be a bit awkward for the next occupant of Peter's See to have his predecessor so close by. Any ideas as to why he's not retiring to somewhere in Germany?
It's very interesting that this very orthodox upholder of church traditions has done something unprecedented in the modern history of the church. I read in the paper this morning that several years ago BXVI visited the tomb of Celestine V and left a garment there. Does anyone know what the garment was? And what the significance of leaving a garment is, as opposed to something like a wreath or flowers?
*No disrespect intended -- merely avoiding the H&A Day censors.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Gawd CL you sound so A n g l i c a n with your posturing and division of people into goodies (those who agree with meeeeeeee) and baddies (all the others).
See anger, zeal and fortitude supply;
Ev'n av'rice, prudence; sloth, philosophy; - Alexander P***
I think we know better than to fall for the idea that RCs are not capable of being just as nasty, narrow and pissy as every one else...
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
@RuthW:
Yes, that is now -with hindsight- widely interpreted as a gesture (and Bénèdik# is not a man of vain gestures) of respect and, possibly, deep understanding of Coelestin's dilemma and decision (who was a hermit pushed against his will onto the P@p@l throne and, horror of horrors for any introvert, into the a management position and the limelights). A meeting of kindred spirits, possibly. Not that B. was at the time actually considering resigning, but he had always left it as a realistic option; he said so in 2009 or -10 in an interview with the German journalist Peter Seewald
I find his decision courageous, moving, wise, and it is his way of short-circuiting all those flunkeys waiting for him to grow old and weak to use him as a puppet behind which they can then do their mostly rather unholy business. B. witnessed what happened around Jaypee Two (sorry...)when the latter was ailing.
It just breaks my heart to think how cruel these past months, and the destruction of his privacy, must have been for this kind, sensitive, and very lonely old man.
Nunc dimittis...
...indeed.
[ 12. February 2013, 16:35: Message buggered about with by: Desert Daughter ]
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
@ Ruth W (again):
the garment in questium was a pallium (see here ), given to him wen he became (insert term for highest c******* clerical position here - are these *****s ever going to stop this? Or have they already?? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ).
Anyway, it does indeed carry some weight as a gesture.
As to why he won't go back to Germany, well, possibly because there is no suitable monastery in the South (and he's Bavarian- he'd never consider going to the North, which is like another country...), it has been said that when he was still a C******* he'd always considered retirement in Italy.
Another reason is that the convent in question is actually a very touching (and as I understand fairly recently established) institution: a convent of cloistered contemplatives (Carmelites, I believe) whose "job" it is to uphold permanent ****er within the walls of the Vatican. B. joining them, joining his ****er with theirs, would be another beautiful gesture.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
It is, as some shipmates have remarked, particularly noteworthy that he has chosen to discuss his resignation, not with his 'aides', but with his close family. Presumably his successor will chose his own personal aides, hence the reason for BXVI's courtiers' surprise, as in 'How could you do this to us, you bastard?'
Nevertheless, I think the resignation will materially change the role of the episcopus of the Eternal City: no longer is it a role unto death, a human being becomming almost divine and unreachable. Instead, it is back to being a job, a garment which is worn for a while, then taken off. The demi-god is an ordinary human again.
As Martial himself said, in his beloved Latin:
"Tongilianus habet nasum, scio, non nego. Sed iam
Nil praeter nasum Tongilianus habet."
[ 12. February 2013, 17:03: Message buggered about with by: Holy Smoke ]
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
No-one ever considered the p0µe "almost divine", let alone a "demi-g0d". That is a gross misinterpretation.
And for info, C@n0n L@w has always contained a proviso for the resignation of a P0ntiféks Maksimùs.
So it might be a FIrst in 600 years, but it is not, in a sense, such a "big deal".
I am a bit appalled by the mixture of lack of respect (OK, fine, that is a fact of life in our beautiful postmodern world) plus (and that's where this lack turns into silliness) lack of information.
Come in, cut us C@tt0licks some slack and respect our ways.
[ 12. February 2013, 17:14: Message buggered about with by: Desert Daughter ]
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
If your wit doesn't run to humour at this time - perhaps you can manage beautifully apposite quote from a previous holy father or one of the orthodox saint.
Don't tell me St John Chrysostom never said anything worth quoting ...
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
No-one ever considered the p0µe "almost divine", let alone a "demi-g0d". That is a gross misinterpretation.
Like the distinction between hyperdulia and dulia, I think you have to accept that reality on the ground may not have followed the theory...
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
You could at least have tried to turn that into a pun.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
No-one ever considered the p0µe "almost divine", let alone a "demi-g0d". That is a gross misinterpretation.
Like the distinction between hyperdulia and dulia, I think you have to accept that reality on the ground may not have followed the theory...
I suspect you actually mean the distinction between Altria and hyperdulia but then you were in too much of a rush to spot the mote to actually check that you knew what you were talking about, eh?
[“A mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge.”
― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones]
[ 12. February 2013, 20:52: Message buggered about with by: Barnabas62 ]
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Altria and hyperdulia but then you were in too much of a rush to spot the mote to actually check that you knew what you were talking about, eh?
Latria, even.
Getretener Quark wird breit - nicht stark. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
(non-translateable classic German epigram for Doublethink to chew on)
John Whaley translation: Weak curds who treads / Firms not, but spreads. - DT
[ 12. February 2013, 21:42: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
If your wit doesn't run to humour at this time ...
Sorry, forgot the epigram. Here ya go:
Your simile may better shine
In verse, but there is truth in mine.
-- Jonathan Swift, "A Libel"
Edit: And thanks, Desert Daughter.
[ 12. February 2013, 22:19: Message buggered about with by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
Why bother with a post at all?
Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of war.
Borrowed from Shakespeare's Julius Caesar
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
No-one ever considered the p0µe "almost divine", let alone a "demi-g0d". That is a gross misinterpretation.
I don't know. The line between being semi-divine and being God's personal front man is razor thin, especially if you claim supernatural powers like infallibility.
"Væ, puto deus fio"
- purported last words of Emperor Vespasian (translation: "I think I'm becoming a god")
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
John Whaley translation: Weak curds who treads / Firms not, but spreads. - DT
Well, that's admittedly a lot better than what I was able to come up with. But the "weak" is not in the original German, but sort of explains the explicit double meaning: "Curd treaded on gets spread, not strengthened." vs. "Bullshit pushed hard becomes long-winded, not better."
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
God liked Benny XVI better than David Jenkins?
[“The brightest flame casts the darkest shadow.”
― George R.R. Martin, A Clash of Kings]
[ 13. February 2013, 00:07: Message buggered about with by: Barnabas62 ]
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Altria and hyperdulia but then you were in too much of a rush to spot the mote to actually check that you knew what you were talking about, eh?
Latria, even.
A beautiful example of Morgan's Law: anyone pompous enough to correct someone else on the Internet will make a small error that draws attention to their self-importance.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
[“Only lies offend me, never honest counsel.”
― George R.R. Martin, A Storm of Swords]
[ 13. February 2013, 07:37: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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trouty
Shipmate
# 13497
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Posted
If you want to know why the Pope resigned, just take a look at the crowd at Celtic Park last night - abortion, contraception and gay marriage all justified with one camera shot
Posts: 205 | From: Somewhere out there | Registered: Mar 2008
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
And for info, C@n0n L@w has always contained a proviso for the resignation of a P0ntiféks Maksimùs.
Humorously invented by Pope Celestine V after only five months of rule, who promptly used it to resign himself! Clever man.
Epigram
"Screw you guys, I'm going home". Eric Cartman
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
If he retires to a convent, won't he be a temptation to sin for all the nuns?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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trouty
Shipmate
# 13497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
If he retires to a convent, won't he be a temptation to sin for all the nuns?
Let's hope he doesn't retire to a kindergarten.
Posts: 205 | From: Somewhere out there | Registered: Mar 2008
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Tallis Acres
Apprentice
# 17553
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Posted
quote:
Let's hope he doesn't retire to a kindergarten. [/QB]
Wow! That's a bit rough!
Any reason to suggest what I think you are suggesting?
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thank you St Jude for favours granted
Posts: 5 | Registered: Feb 2013
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Tallis Acres
Apprentice
# 17553
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
If he retires to a convent, won't he be a temptation to sin for all the nuns?
My understanding was that it is an ex-convent.
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thank you St Jude for favours granted
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
Yes, it apparently is. I had first thought the Carmelites were still there, but it seems the site is empty; in the German press it was described as a building with 12 monastic cells upstairs and kitchen/library/meeting rooms downstairs, plus gardens.
In any case, he has my deep respect.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
If he retires to a convent, won't he be a temptation to sin for all the nuns?
I hope a convent of nuns will still find me a temptation to sin when I'm in my mid eighties.
If this turns out to be an ex-convent, and has 12 cells, one occupied by an ex-pope, what exes will occupy the other 11. Will it be staffed by 11 ex-nuns, or must each be an ex-something different, ex-cook , ex-chaplain, ex-cleaner, ex-cetera?
Now it's Wednesday, are we let off having to produce laboured epigrams?
If not,
"Væ, puto pontifex fio"
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Shocked as I am at the announcement I now want to see the College of Cardinals replaced by a blinfolded boy, a fish bowl and a load of ping pong balls with names on.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Yes, it apparently is. I had first thought the Carmelites were still there, but it seems the site is empty; in the German press it was described as a building with 12 monastic cells upstairs and kitchen/library/meeting rooms downstairs, plus gardens.
In any case, he has my deep respect.
Personally I'd have more respect for him if he hadn't kicked all the nuns out so he could live in their house by himself for free. The site is empty because the nuns were given advance warning to sling their hook last November.
The monastic life IMO is one of community, as well as peaceful reflection and prayer. Instead of joining an existing community and living a simple life far from the trappings of the world, he'll continue to live as royalty, at the heart of the Vatican, with an army of servants providing everything he wants for the rest of his life. He'll get all of the perks of being pope with none of the responsibilites. Sounds like a cushy number to me.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
Personally I'd have more respect for him if he hadn't kicked all the nuns out so he could live in their house by himself for free. The site is empty because the nuns were given advance warning to sling their hook last November.
There's got to be more to the the story than this.
A quick google search brought up this article from 2004:Benedictines to "Take Over" Prayer in Vatican Convent
quote:
Benedictine nuns will take over the Vatican's Mater Ecclesiae convent this week, a house occupied over the past five years by Carmelites praying for the Pope and the Roman Curia...
<snip>
...This convent of contemplative nuns in the Vatican was founded by John Paul II in 1994, to enrich the Curia with the presence and prayer of nuns totally dedicated to contemplation.
By indication of the Pope himself, the community of the convent changes every five years, the period of duration of an assignment in the Curia.
In 1994 the convent was animated by a community of Poor Clares. The present community of Carmelites, who come from several countries, arrived in the Vatican in September 1999. The Benedictines will take over this Friday.
So the community of nuns changes every five years, regardless. It began with a group of Poor Clares, then there were Carmelites, followed by Benedictines. Most recently it was Carmelites again. Everything I've heard so far about the building is that it's being renovated which might explain why it's currently empty.
One can also live in a monastery without being directly involve in the daily routine of a community. In some orders certain members are sometimes allowed to live the life of a hermit on monastery grounds. Certainly, as a male the Pope wouldn't be able to join a community of nuns the same way as a female would. We don't even know exactly what the arrangement will be other than he will live there so it's just tendentious to say his life will be cushy or that he'll be treated like royalty, especially given his own personal piety.
[ 13. February 2013, 17:25: Message edited by: Pancho ]
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Yes, it apparently is. I had first thought the Carmelites were still there, but it seems the site is empty; in the German press it was described as a building with 12 monastic cells upstairs and kitchen/library/meeting rooms downstairs, plus gardens.
In any case, he has my deep respect.
Personally I'd have more respect for him if he hadn't kicked all the nuns out so he could live in their house by himself for free. The site is empty because the nuns were given advance warning to sling their hook last November.
The monastic life IMO is one of community, as well as peaceful reflection and prayer. Instead of joining an existing community and living a simple life far from the trappings of the world, he'll continue to live as royalty, at the heart of the Vatican, with an army of servants providing everything he wants for the rest of his life. He'll get all of the perks of being pope with none of the responsibilites. Sounds like a cushy number to me.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
Personally I'd have more respect for him if he hadn't kicked all the nuns out so he could live in their house by himself for free. The site is empty because the nuns were given advance warning to sling their hook last November.
There's got to be more to the the story than this.
...So the community of nuns changes every five years, regardless. It began with a group of Poor Clares, then there were Carmelites, followed by Benedictines. Most recently it was Carmelites again. Everything I've heard so far about the building is that it's being renovated which might explain why it's currently empty.
Not quite accurate. The last occupants were Visitandine nuns. According to the schedule they were due to live there until 2014. There was no reason given as to why they suddenly up-sticked and left two years early. If the justification was renovation then it would have made more sense to schedule it for the period just after they moved out in 2014, and before the next group moved in. Admittedly it is cynicism that leads me to present the view that this early unexplained exit was due to pressure from the Big Man. But hardly an unreasonable level of cynicism considering.
[ 13. February 2013, 22:35: Message edited by: Hawk ]
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
On the other hand:
- a pope is always going to be an assassination target - so he would have to retire to some sort of securable location.
- The monastic house was set up specifically to support the papacy.
- we do not know what the renovations are, it may mean effectively including a bedsit into the building and the nuns may return as well as the ex-pope
- *if* the pope discussed it with the nuns in October, they may have been asked what they thought, there must be considerable trust between them and him - given he didn't tell his closest advisors
- he is a seriously ill 85yr old man, maybe the nuns will nurse him (this is not 'living like a king' - many seriously ill 85yr old men require residential care)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
- he is a seriously ill 85yr old man, maybe the nuns will nurse him (this is not 'living like a king' - many seriously ill 85yr old men require residential care)
. . . but not every seriously ill eighty-five year old man who requires residential care gets residential care, and even when they do they usually don't get the tenants of one of the many properties controlled by them to nurse them in their decline. Wait, remind me again how commandeering the home of your sworn vassals isn't "living like a king"?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I was more reacting to the idea that being waited on when your body fails you is somehow unusual. I live next door to a 104yr old woman with a live in carer. There's a care home around the corner housing I am not sure how many folk.
I suppose what I am saying, is I don't think this is about luxury. Whether it was appropriate to put a monastery in your garden to pray for you is a rather different question - but not actually something that B himself originally organised.
Also, I think 'home' is pushing it as a description - seems more like a rotating posting for the orders concerned as far as I can tell.
[ETA it occurs to me to add, that perhaps the renovations were going to happen, he was mindful of it because he met the nuns in October, and then when he decided to retire had a lightbulb moment going - well they have already moved out of the building if we don't move anyone new into it ...]
[ 13. February 2013, 23:08: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
To be fair, the pope is a king, at least in functional terms. He's the absolute monarch of Vatican City. So why not live like one, even after retirement? Sort of like a queen-mother, except being a "pope-father" is a linguistic redundancy on multiple levels.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Now titles are a interesting question:
- Pope (after all a retired priest is still a priest)
- The Sleeping Shepherd
- Pontifex Redux
- Pontifex Emeritus
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
To be fair, the pope is a king, at least in functional terms. He's the absolute monarch of Vatican City. So why not live like one, even after retirement? Sort of like a queen-mother.
Because he's also a servant, servus servorum Dei and all that.
I'm all for seeing to his medical needs, daily meals, vacuuming and changing the bed linens, etc., but if poverty were good enough for the monastics it surely is good enough for the servant of the servants of God, eh wot?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Now titles are a interesting question:
- Pope (after all a retired priest is still a priest)
- The Sleeping Shepherd
- Pontifex Redux
- Pontifex Emeritus
Ex-Pontiff? The conservation of syllables seems perfect.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
Consider, perhaps, that if the man is going to be living in a monastery environment, however it is ultimately set up, I'd wager the majority of the cardinals (particularly those in Rome) probably have cushier digs than Benedict will have. And yes, he will likely get excellent medical care, assuming he desires it; just like every other aging bishop in the church.
This is just not a big deal at all.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I don'tsee what the fuss is about. Former heads of state often require, for security reasons, controlled access quarters-- as a former pope there are plenty of nutbars who would enjoy having a crack at him/boring him to tears with their inanities. Given that and his age, putting him in a monastic setting is hardly anything luxurious. For his flaws, which he would likely be the first to admit are many, his idea of luxury appears to be a room full of books with occasional visits by cats and graduate students, perhaps with a bit of mozart in the background. It's hardly Dallas.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
To be fair, the pope is a king, at least in functional terms. He's the absolute monarch of Vatican City. So why not live like one, even after retirement? Sort of like a queen-mother, except being a "pope-father" is a linguistic redundancy on multiple levels.
Very useful! I'm liking "pope-mother", which lends itself to such helpful nontraditional images and rather good profanity. -- The pope as Capitoline Wolf, except that either it is the next pope he suckles, or an expanded group of cardinals.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
If he is to retain his own name, then the Holy Father remains a cardinal - a retired cardinal. Given some of the recent pictures I have seen, I doubt very much that this will be a long-term issue for him. I offer a prayer for his intentions.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Even more so than I was before
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