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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Pope Resigns
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
FWIW, I repeat here a comment from "cufflinkcatholic":
quote:
Just to clarify that Benedict XVI will not go back to the College of Cardinals on February 28 but will become Mons. Ratzinger. He vacated the cardinal bishopric of Ostia when he became pope and this title is filled. A cardinal must have a Roman title, whether as a cardinal deacon, cardinal priest, or cardinal bishop. There is no such thing as a roving cardinal without such a title since a cardinal is a member of the Roman clergy, which gives him the right to participate in conclaves to elect his bishop. I suspect, however, that one of the first acts of the new pope will be to create the former pontiff a cardinal. This is by no means certain, nor is the acceptance of the (re)elevation to the Purple.
So maybe there will not be a Cardinal Emeritus Ratzinger.
In other news, time is up for the SSPX. I predicted above that the SSPX would rue not having closed a deal with BXVI, but I'm surprised that a divide et impera (divide and rule) decree against them will be pretty much the last act of governance of BXVI. He must be not pleased, really not pleased... or he's just being old-fashioned German and has decided to leave his successor with as clean a desk as he can manage.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
All this horse trading and politics, then at the end of it all there will be a new Pope. It will be claimed as Holy Spirit led and God's will.
Why?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
If he retires to a convent, won't he be a temptation to sin for all the nuns?
Let's hope he doesn't retire to a kindergarten.
Host Hat On
I see that Apprentice Tallis Acres, to whom I give a warm welcome, described this as a bit rough. That's an understatement.
trouty
Purgatory is a place for serious discussion, not inflammatory sectarian bilious bullshit thinly disguised as a "joke". I'm not even sure you'd get away with it in Hell but you definitely can't do that in Purgatory. Cease and desist.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
All this horse trading and politics, then at the end of it all there will be a new Pope. It will be claimed as Holy Spirit led and God's will. Why?
Well, the RCC is the Church. The one against which the gates of hell will not prevail. The one governed by the successors of the Apostles, and the successor of the Prince of Apostles in particular, to all of whom the Holy Spirit was sent for assistance. Etc. So it is a fair bet that God is keeping a close eye on proceedings.
That said, the RCC does not claim that the selection of popes proceeds according to the will of God in a simplistic manner. Neither does she claim that popes are continuously inspired by the Holy Spirit. Whatever you may think of recent popes, there sure as hell have been worse, a lot worse. And no Divine guarantee exists that we won't get another Alexander VI, or indeed someone who makes the Borgia pope look good. The only Divine guarantee is that no pope will be allowed to irreparably wreck the RCC by imposing false dogma irrevocably. That's not much of a guarantee, really...
I think the RCC has had a rather good run with her popes of late. I pray that this may continue.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB
Well, the RCC is the Church. The one against which the gates of hell will not prevail.
Depends what you mean by the "gates of hell not prevailing". If it means that the evil one will never make any inroads into this organisation (which I very much doubt you mean, judging by your other comments), then clearly the RCC is not the Church. If it means nothing more than the evil one will not succeed in completely destroying this organisation, then that is certainly true of many other denominations, which have survived through the centuries through thick and thin. Therefore, they must also qualify as the Church, since they enjoy at least the same measure of spiritual protection as the RCC.
"Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in their midst" seems to me to be a pretty easy condition to fulfil, to qualify as 'church'.
quote:
The only Divine guarantee is that no pope will be allowed to irreparably wreck the RCC by imposing false dogma irrevocably.
That seems to imply that all "the Church" is good for is to establish dogma, which is a far cry from the living and holy temple being built by all the saints (in the correct biblical definition of 'saints') for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit (Eph. 2:19-22).
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
If he is to retain his own name, then the Holy Father remains a cardinal - a retired cardinal. Given some of the recent pictures I have seen, I doubt very much that this will be a long-term issue for him. I offer a prayer for his intentions.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Indeed. He looked really very frail at the Ash Wednesday Mass last night.
An Ecclesiantics question, perhaps, but, given that papal requiems are in red, do we anticipate that his (which, please God, will be some years hence) will be too?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
All this horse trading and politics, then at the end of it all there will be a new Pope. It will be claimed as Holy Spirit led and God's will. Why?
Well, the RCC is the Church. The one against which the gates of hell will not prevail. The one governed by the successors of the Apostles, and the successor of the Prince of Apostles in particular, to all of whom the Holy Spirit was sent for assistance. Etc. So it is a fair bet that God is keeping a close eye on proceedings.
That said, the RCC does not claim that the selection of popes proceeds according to the will of God in a simplistic manner. Neither does she claim that popes are continuously inspired by the Holy Spirit. Whatever you may think of recent popes, there sure as hell have been worse, a lot worse. And no Divine guarantee exists that we won't get another Alexander VI, or indeed someone who makes the Borgia pope look good. The only Divine guarantee is that no pope will be allowed to irreparably wreck the RCC by imposing false dogma irrevocably. That's not much of a guarantee, really...
I think the RCC has had a rather good run with her popes of late. I pray that this may continue.
Rodrigo Borgia was relatively benign compared to some of the wretches the Church had to endure in the 10th Century. It wasn't known as Saeculum obscurum for nothing.
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Tallis Acres
Apprentice
# 17553
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Posted
I wonder whether those of you here that seem to resent the retirement living conditions of Benedict will feel ashamed if it is revealed that he is dying.
I would like to think so,
Posts: 5 | Registered: Feb 2013
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
If he is to retain his own name, then the Holy Father remains a cardinal - a retired cardinal. Given some of the recent pictures I have seen, I doubt very much that this will be a long-term issue for him. I offer a prayer for his intentions.
Indeed. He looked really very frail at the Ash Wednesday Mass last night.
An Ecclesiantics question, perhaps, but, given that papal requiems are in red, do we anticipate that his (which, please God, will be some years hence) will be too?
Thurible
I hope and imagine that the funeral would be no different from if he had died in office, with the sole exception that the new Pope himself would almost certainly celebrate it.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
If it means nothing more than the evil one will not succeed in completely destroying this organisation, then that is certainly true of many other denominations, which have survived through the centuries through thick and thin. Therefore, they must also qualify as the Church, since they enjoy at least the same measure of spiritual protection as the RCC.
The Most Serene Republic of Venice lasted for over a thousand years. That does not make it a Church. That the Church endures by Divine guarantee does not mean that all which endures does so by Divine guarantee. Furthermore, what it means for the gates of hell to prevail is obviously not independent from other things one believes about Christianity and the Church. This is not simply about existence, even religious existence. If all the Church turned Protestant, then I for one would say that the gates of hell have prevailed against her. Obviously you would see that differently, but my point is simply that "prevailing" requires interpretation.
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
"Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in their midst" seems to me to be a pretty easy condition to fulfil, to qualify as 'church'.
Matt 18:20 as defining church?! Luckily I can spare myself a detailed critique, since as it happens I have discussed Matt 18 recently in Kerygmania: here (and here).
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
The only Divine guarantee is that no pope will be allowed to irreparably wreck the RCC by imposing false dogma irrevocably.
That seems to imply that all "the Church" is good for is to establish dogma, which is a far cry from the living and holy temple being built by all the saints (in the correct biblical definition of 'saints') for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit (Eph. 2:19-22).
David Beckham has his legs insured for $70 million. That does not mean that he consists only of legs, or that all he ever does is to walk around on them. It does not even mean that all he ever does is to play soccer. It simply means that the use of his legs is key for an important part of his life, and that hence he seeks to insure against a catastrophic failure of his legs. Likewise, that the Church is Divinely protected against a catastrophic failure of her teaching office does not mean that that is all she is or does. By the way, St Paul goes on to use the very verses you quote to motivate his teaching office (Eph 3).
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Whatever you may think of recent popes, there sure as hell have been worse, a lot worse. And no Divine guarantee exists that we won't get another Alexander VI, or indeed someone who makes the Borgia pope look good.
For a 'once over lightly' version, told with some humor, of why Alexander VI "was a very very, very very, very, very bad pope", click the link. Short version, from the same:
quote:
- They [the Borgias] were Spaniards, and the Italians hated that, so all possible tensions were hyper-inflamed.
- Instead of the usual graft and simony, they tried to permanently carve out a personal Borgia duchy in the middle of Italy, and when that was going well, they tried to turn the papacy into a hereditary monarchy.
- They very nearly succeeded.
It's a good read, and part of a longer series on Machiavelli which is also worth reading if you've got the time to spare.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
FSo maybe there will not be a Cardinal Emeritus Ratzinger.
as far as I understand, once a Cardinal becomes Pope he loses the status of Cardinal. So, Joseph Ratzinger, upon relinquishing is position as Pope, will be officially considered a Bishop. It is of course entirely possible for the next Pope to confer the dignity of a Cardinal upon him again.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
For a 'once over lightly' version, told with some humor, of why Alexander VI "was a very very, very very, very, very bad pope", click the link.
That's brilliant stuff! Thanks for that, a very enjoyable read.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
FSo maybe there will not be a Cardinal Emeritus Ratzinger.
as far as I understand, once a Cardinal becomes Pope he loses the status of Cardinal. So, Joseph Ratzinger, upon relinquishing is position as Pope, will be officially considered a Bishop. It is of course entirely possible for the next Pope to confer the dignity of a Cardinal upon him again.
That may be right in terms of Cardinals, but one is a Bishop for ever.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
FWIW, I repeat here a comment from "cufflinkcatholic"...
Reading some of the other comments, it's quite astonishing just how much hostility there is towards the Pope's decision, which only goes to support the contention that his publically sudden but privately carefully considered resignation - I see the Catholic Herald is calling it an 'abdication', which surely must invoke some rather unfortunate comparisons with King Edward VIII's abdication - does represent a significant event and a significant change in the role of the papacy in the Roman Church. As I suggested, now he is back to being plain old Joe Ratzinger, perhaps people are beginning to wonder whether Benedict XVI in particular, and indeed Benedict's predecessors were human all along, and just pretending to be something more. A good thing, at any rate, methinks.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tallis Acres:
I wonder whether those of you here that seem to resent the retirement living conditions of Benedict will feel ashamed if it is revealed that he is dying.
I would like to think so,
Not a particular enthusiast for the present Pontiff, but think it is shockingly bad form not to wish him comfort in his retirement. He is a sincere servant of God and has given nearly all of his life in the service of the Church.
[ 14. February 2013, 16:03: Message edited by: Ronald Binge ]
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
perhaps people are beginning to wonder whether Benedict XVI in particular, and indeed Benedict's predecessors were human all along,
Foolish. Who has suggested that they were not? No one I have seen.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Well, the RCC is the Church.
Maybe, God willing, the next Pope will start dropping some of the pretention.
One of the things about the retiring Pope, whatever the theoretical position, is that he seemed very ready to acknowledge churches of other Christian denominaitons as churches, in a way that previous Popes didn't quite. Lets hope things carry on moving that way. (Wouldn't bet on it though)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I'm not of his ecclesial community, but I've been very impressed with the calibre of some of his encyclicals. I'd particularly commend Spe Salvi. I wish him well in his retirement and for having the guts to break with 600 years of bad habits for the good of the church and avoiding a possible long period with a sick man roped to the helm but not actually able to steer.
I'd like to think of him being fussed over by some nice caring nuns. He deserves it. I think ill of those who begrudge him this.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Here's a relevant freebie from the Catholic Truth Society:
"Conclave - Step by Step Through the Papal Interregnum" by Monsignor Charles Burns (PDF, 37 pages).
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
One of the things about the retiring Pope, whatever the theoretical position, is that he seemed very ready to acknowledge churches of other Christian denominaitons as churches, in a way that previous Popes didn't quite. Lets hope things carry on moving that way. (Wouldn't bet on it though)
That's a strange comment. What can be called "church" in what sense has been nailed down by Vatican II, and I'm not aware that any pope since has significantly deviated from that, certainly not BXVI. I also would say that the Protestants were not a particularly big focus of BXVI's papacy. Where's the evidence for that?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I rather got the impression that Benedict considered Protestants an irritating waste of his time.
[ 14. February 2013, 18:08: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I rather got the impression that Benedict considered Protestants an irritating waste of his time.
possibly but he did at least have a service where he and Rowan both played an active part (and other protestant ministers were 'robed'),
True he also prayed in a Mosque. So it doesn't mean he saw us as informed* Christians.
But that's not the same claim as a waste of time.
*I initially used 'good' but that words overloaded. This includes the possibility of
him not even thinking of us as Christian (which would not be a value judgement).
[edited to try and assert less of what I know nothing about]
[ 14. February 2013, 19:42: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
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Ann
Curious
# 94
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
If he is to retain his own name, then the Holy Father remains a cardinal - a retired cardinal. Given some of the recent pictures I have seen, I doubt very much that this will be a long-term issue for him. I offer a prayer for his intentions.
Indeed. He looked really very frail at the Ash Wednesday Mass last night.
An Ecclesiantics question, perhaps, but, given that papal requiems are in red, do we anticipate that his (which, please God, will be some years hence) will be too?
Thurible
I hope and imagine that the funeral would be no different from if he had died in office, with the sole exception that the new Pope himself would almost certainly celebrate it.
Will he get the hammer on the bonce treatment?
More seriously, I wish him well and well looked after in his retirement.
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Ann
Posts: 3271 | From: IO 91 PI | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I started off by not liking him, then realized that he wasn't the monster that popular perception had portrayed him as. I think it was his visit to Britain that swung it for me. He came across as having a warmth and a genuine interest in the people he met that impressed me: he seemed to be genuinely enjoying his visit and even took longer than scheduled to talk to some of the people he met.
I ended up liking him much more than I'd expected and much more than the last pope. At least we finally had one who didn't mess up the "Urbi et Orbi" at Easter, fall asleep, etc., and seemed much more with it and articulate.
In retrospect it's no surprise that he's resigned; while JPII was still alive, Cardinal Ratzinger worked fairly closely with him and saw him through the papal stuff he was no longer capable of. Having seen JPII go steadily downhill, it's not surprising if B16 feels he's done his share, and doesn't want to go on beyond a point at which he can reasonably cope, and would have to be dependent on other people, etc.
I was particularly pleased with his reintroduction of the Latin services. It's been moving and heartwarming to have those back again and to hear plainchant sung more often (whether in English or Latin I don't mind but it is good to have it there).
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I'm not of his ecclesial community, but I've been very impressed with the calibre of some of his encyclicals. I'd particularly commend Spe Salvi. I wish him well in his retirement and for having the guts to break with 600 years of bad habits for the good of the church and avoiding a possible long period with a sick man roped to the helm but not actually able to steer.
I'd like to think of him being fussed over by some nice caring nuns. He deserves it. I think ill of those who begrudge him this.
This.
He seems to me to be a decent fellow who has tried to do the best job he could, given the many divisive issues he was left by his predecessors. I certainly don't agree with the RC stance on many social issues, but I think he's generally done what he believes to be right. Good on him for knowing when to retire, and the best to him in that retirement.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I rather got the impression that Benedict considered Protestants an irritating waste of his time.
You have obviously never read this book.
The thought of this great mind is always far more nuanced than the soundbite commentators (I don't mean you Zach)
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
You have obviously never read this book.
The thought of this great mind is always far more nuanced than the soundbite commentators (I don't mean you Zach)
You saying I'm not a great mind? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Ironically, since Benedict is an Augustinian I tend to very much like his theology. But, God help me, the Anglican Ordinariates sure make it look like he can't be bothered with the Anglican Communion anymore.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
You could look at it differently - he sees such value in Anglicanism and its spiritual heritage that he has created space for that heritage within the Catholic Church. That's a validation of the Anglican tradition, if not of Anglican politics.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
You have obviously never read this book.
I haven't either. But I do know that Dominus Iesus effectively stopped dead the unreasonably high hopes raised by the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. And here is an interview with Cardinal Ratzinger on that very document. One finds therein rather clear words on the status of Protestant churches.
And while we are at it, thanks to the impartial and informed press and our always calm and collected Muslim friends, everybody remembers the Regensburg address as being about Muslims. It wasn't. It actually made the case that the rapprochement between Biblical faith and Greek philosophical inquiry was key - indeed an 'intrinsic necessity' - both for Christianity and for European culture. And then BXVI went on to attack the three stages can be observed in the programme of dehellenization: 1) the Reformation, 2) liberal theology of the 19th/20thC, in particular Adolf von Harnack, and 3) the current attempts to go back to an "original" NT church. So he considers Protestantism as significant part of the problem, not solution, of the crisis of the Church and (classical) European culture.
BXVI's three visits to Germany were not noted for any particularly striking ecumenical activities as far as the Lutherans there were concerned. And of course we also had yet another clarification on the status of Reformation churches in this pontificate, here (see question 5). I don't think that BXVI has been an enemy of Protestants by any means. But he hasn't been a great friend either.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
You could look at it differently - he sees such value in Anglicanism and its spiritual heritage that he has created space for that heritage within the Catholic Church. That's a validation of the Anglican tradition, if not of Anglican politics.
Alas, we have different ideas of what the Anglican spiritual heritage amounts to. Having some pretty prayer services is rather less than having the fulness of the sacramental life of the Church in our worship.
My frame for the ordinariate has the requirement of re-ordination of priests on one side and letting the former bishops wear mitres on the other. Let them have their pretty hats, so long as they deny that they were ever bishops.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Ingo pretty much sums up my estimation of Benedict's ecumenism when the Ordinariate is set aside. The link contains some telling lines:
quote:
I would like first of all to express my sadness and disappointment at the fact that public reaction, with a few praiseworthy exceptions, has completely disregarded the Declaration's true theme... The ecclesiological and ecumenical issues of which everyone is now speaking occupy only a small part of the document...
I don't mean that he was out to get us, but it seems that he just didn't give a damn. He didn't care what Dominus Iesus meant to Protestants, he didn't care what the Ordinariate meant for relations between the RC Church and Anglicanism, and he seems willfully unaware that he cannot decree reunion with Orthodoxy.
[ 14. February 2013, 22:25: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
You have obviously never read this book.
I haven't either. But I do know that Dominus Iesus effectively stopped dead the unreasonably high hopes raised by the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. And here is an interview with Cardinal Ratzinger on that very document. One finds therein rather clear words on the status of Protestant churches.
Well, you ought to read it if you wish to understand his thought about Christians of other confessions. I sense you are thinking solely in terms of the validity or "status" of other churches in Catholic terms. There is a wide gap between that and simply dismissing other Christians as "an irritating waste of time". It's not one or the other.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
BXVI's three visits to Germany were not noted for any particularly striking ecumenical activities as far as the Lutherans there were concerned. And of course we also had yet another clarification on the status of Reformation churches in this pontificate, here (see question 5). I don't think that BXVI has been an enemy of Protestants by any means. But he hasn't been a great friend either.
Well, I suppose addressing the Council of the Evangelical Church in Erfurt in 2011, in the former Augustinian monastery where Luther studied theology and celebrated his first Mass, and in that address basing his words on issues that were important to Luther is not really striking. Or his attendance at an ecumenical prayer service there (you can watch the video here.)There he said some interesting things ( full text here). These things are now rather routine rather than striking. He alludes to the expectation of something striking in that second address.
However, these do not suggest he regards protestant merely as irritating irrelevances.
But if you are simply seeking a stark affirmation of protestant churches - well, that's not the position of the Catholic Church is it?
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I don't want to give you the wrong idea, TT. I am not trying to say he was a bad guy or even a bad pope. I am only saying that, as an Anglican, I have not really been feeling the love. And I assure you, I have no expectation of anything as extravagant as an unqualified affirmation of Anglicanism.
[ 15. February 2013, 00:05: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Heheh no worries - I wasn't trying to defend him against an Anglican affront ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I'm just trying to make the point that his thinking is usually much more nuanced than at first appears. He really does repay reading in full. There are real treasures to be mined in all sorts of areas. His treatment on the atonement and the sacrifice of the Cross (in his Introduction to Christianity) is one for which I will always be indebted.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I'll check the book out. Like I said, once I get past his ecclesiology, I actually like his theology.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
FWIW, I repeat here a comment from "cufflinkcatholic":
quote:
Just to clarify that Benedict XVI will not go back to the College of Cardinals on February 28 but will become Mons. Ratzinger. He vacated the cardinal bishopric of Ostia when he became pope and this title is filled. A cardinal must have a Roman title, whether as a cardinal deacon, cardinal priest, or cardinal bishop. There is no such thing as a roving cardinal without such a title since a cardinal is a member of the Roman clergy, which gives him the right to participate in conclaves to elect his bishop. I suspect, however, that one of the first acts of the new pope will be to create the former pontiff a cardinal. This is by no means certain, nor is the acceptance of the (re)elevation to the Purple.
So maybe there will not be a Cardinal Emeritus Ratzinger.
In other news, time is up for the SSPX. I predicted above that the SSPX would rue not having closed a deal with BXVI, but I'm surprised that a divide et impera (divide and rule) decree against them will be pretty much the last act of governance of BXVI. He must be not pleased, really not pleased... or he's just being old-fashioned German and has decided to leave his successor with as clean a desk as he can manage.
The re-creation of him as a cardinal would put him in an awkward position. By all rights, it seems he should be in a position senior to that of other cardinals. I doubt they will create a new suburbicarian see for him to take his rank as one of the creme-de-la-creme once again.
Now, assigning him to a newly created (or long-vacated) patriarchate with cardinal status would put him in a more distinct position in which he could be ranked among the cardinal-bishops without having actual responsibility over anything.
That said, I imagine he'll just be happy to retire in peace as a plain old bishop.
As for his dealings with Protestants, I've got the distinct impression his opinions are far more nuanced than seen at first glance. He reminds me a lot of Cardinal George of Chicago: a pure academic at heart who will argue philosophy and theology all day, who is very particular and likes things a certain way, who comes off as gruff and not very personable, and then turns out to be very open and willing to undertake any sort of reasoned dialogue.
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Well, you ought to read it if you wish to understand his thought about Christians of other confessions.
Thank you for this advice. I have.
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
There is a wide gap between that and simply dismissing other Christians as "an irritating waste of time".
Indeed. BXVI is a gentleman, and would never say such a thing. However, he does not waste his time either.
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Well, I suppose addressing the Council of the Evangelical Church in Erfurt in 2011, in the former Augustinian monastery where Luther studied theology and celebrated his first Mass, and in that address basing his words on issues that were important to Luther is not really striking.
Well, that at least was a nice gesture, and that text is substantial (unlike the next one). It is also a really clever work, focusing on the proper good of Luther's fundamental pathology. But as far as ecumenism goes, it simply says this: the enemy of my enemy is a friend.
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Or his attendance at an ecumenical prayer service there (you can watch the video here.)There he said some interesting things ( full text here). These things are now rather routine rather than striking. He alludes to the expectation of something striking in that second address.
Indeed. There is a reflection of the general disappointment of Lutherans and the secular German press with the lack of any practical ecumenical gestures in that speech. Now, to de-fluff that speech. It says: "We are all Christians. So that at least unites us. As for ecumenical gifts: well, we have been talking to you, haven't we?"
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
But if you are simply seeking a stark affirmation of protestant churches - well, that's not the position of the Catholic Church is it?
The only thing I've been saying is that BXVI has not been particularly interested in pushing things further with the Protestants.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
FWIW, I repeat here a comment from "cufflinkcatholic"...
Reading some of the other comments, it's quite astonishing just how much hostility there is towards the Pope's decision, which only goes to support the contention that his publically sudden but privately carefully considered resignation - I see the Catholic Herald is calling it an 'abdication', which surely must invoke some rather unfortunate comparisons with King Edward VIII's abdication - does represent a significant event and a significant change in the role of the papacy in the Roman Church. As I suggested, now he is back to being plain old Joe Ratzinger, perhaps people are beginning to wonder whether Benedict XVI in particular, and indeed Benedict's predecessors were human all along, and just pretending to be something more. A good thing, at any rate, methinks.
He did abdicate. That is the correct verb when a monarch gives up their throne before death. Resignation is a stupid word to use as a resignation entails acceptance by another party.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I rather got the impression that Benedict considered Protestants an irritating waste of his time.
I got the impression that he was the most Protestant-friendly Pope ever. And I got that before he was Pope, when I read some of his writings about priesthood and ministry.
That doesn't mean I think he thinks that a Protestant priest or bishop is automatically the same thing as a Catholic one.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
FWIW, I repeat here a comment from "cufflinkcatholic"...
Reading some of the other comments, it's quite astonishing just how much hostility there is towards the Pope's decision, which only goes to support the contention that his publically sudden but privately carefully considered resignation - I see the Catholic Herald is calling it an 'abdication', which surely must invoke some rather unfortunate comparisons with King Edward VIII's abdication - does represent a significant event and a significant change in the role of the papacy in the Roman Church. As I suggested, now he is back to being plain old Joe Ratzinger, perhaps people are beginning to wonder whether Benedict XVI in particular, and indeed Benedict's predecessors were human all along, and just pretending to be something more. A good thing, at any rate, methinks.
He did abdicate. That is the correct verb when a monarch gives up their throne before death. Resignation is a stupid word to use as a resignation entails acceptance by another party.
I can't vouch for what the correct verb might be, but Canon 332, section 2 calls it resignation, and specifically says acceptance by another party has got nothing to do with it.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I rather got the impression that Benedict considered Protestants an irritating waste of his time.
I got the impression that he was the most Protestant-friendly Pope ever. And I got that before he was Pope, when I read some of his writings about priesthood and ministry.
That doesn't mean I think he thinks that a Protestant priest or bishop is automatically the same thing as a Catholic one.
I think there are many in the Curia who bitterly regret this happening:
++Ramsey and +++Paul VI
and have been rowing back from it since, and IMHO the contents of Tesco Value Burgers aren't that relevant.
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I can't vouch for what the correct verb might be, but Canon 332, section 2 calls it resignation, and specifically says acceptance by another party has got nothing to do with it.
CL is possibly confusing the office of Pope with that of Holy Roman Emperor.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
I think there are many in the Curia who bitterly regret this happening:
Do you actually know anyone in the Curia? Have you ever been near it?
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I'd say they are delighted - the leash has now got a bit of slack
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
same question to you fletcher - do you know anyone in the curia or have you ever been anywhere near any curial office?
In your case I ask because this idea that there is some tight leash controlling the whole curia is odd. Did you not read even the broad brushstrokes of the vatileaks business?
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
twas just in jest
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
I think there are many in the Curia who bitterly regret this happening:
Do you actually know anyone in the Curia? Have you ever been near it?
Oh right Father TT. Thanks for reminding me that I have no right to a public opinion on the governance and policies of the Church that I belong to.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I can't vouch for what the correct verb might be, but Canon 332, section 2 calls it resignation, and specifically says acceptance by another party has got nothing to do with it.
CL is possibly confusing the office of Pope with that of Holy Roman Emperor.
I have always thought that one of the advantages of being pope is that one gets to define one's terms as one wishes. If a pope tells me that he is resigning and does not use another verb, I suppose that it's fine. I might have used abdicating in terms of chieftaincy of the Vatican City state, but I think resigning works quite well for his office as Bishop of Rome.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
I think there are many in the Curia who bitterly regret this happening:
Do you actually know anyone in the Curia? Have you ever been near it?
Oh right Father TT. Thanks for reminding me that I have no right to a public opinion on the governance and policies of the Church that I belong to.
Okay. I'm being harsh here - Fr TT is one of the more irenic defenders of the Church on the Ship. However, it appears that the Roman Catholic Church is sleepwalking into another two decades of more of the same, unsurprising when every single member of the College of Cardinals was appointed by the last two Popes.
Is there any chance that those who run the Church could bear in mind that our human lives are finite and that trusting to eternity to solve apparently intractable problems such as ecumenism and some of the ex-Nags having a canter may not be such a good strategy after all?
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Is there any chance that those who run the Church could bear in mind that our human lives are finite and that trusting to eternity to solve apparently intractable problems such as ecumenism and some of the ex-Nags having a canter may not be such a good strategy after all?
But this presumes that the Church's teachings on these ex-Nags are wrong and should be changed. Is there a chance that those who run the Church disagree with you? I certainly do.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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