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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Marriage
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Lord Clonk
Shipmate
# 13205
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Posted
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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
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Originally posted by ecumaniac:
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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
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Originally posted by ecumaniac:
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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Well, Lord C, I guess I get hung up on two things with polyamory. One is there is no stability, as I define it. When your lover is free to be with others, there is a risk that they will find that person more fulfilling and leave you.
Isn't there a risk that your monogamous partner will leave you too?
Sure, but not as much as when your partner is sleeping with others and spending quality time with others!
PIcking up on the "quality time" thing - is it not to be expected that one's partner will continue to spend quality time with other people? Workmates? Close friends that he/she had before he/she met you?
Of course people who are monogamously inclined should not be forced into tolerating poly arrangements (obviously) but I don't think extracting monogamous promises from someone is a good guarantee of them not leaving.
I agree that extracting monogamous promises isn't
a good guarantee. I've pretty much maintained that stance.
Just like IngoB's question of whether or not making a promise such as marriage is valuable is the essential question in terms of the marriage question, the essential question on this polyamory issue, at least for me, is not so much "quality time" but whether or not sex makes it more likely that a stronger bond will be made between the two people. But it seems that the sex question is kind of the elephant in the room. But for me, it is the salient question.
So... Are you saying that sex is bad outside of a monogamous relationship because it strengthens and sometimes forges bonds with other people, or are you saying that it does bad stuff in polyamory?
The sex question is very interesting when talking about monogamy/polyamory because it's the thing that superficially makes monogamy different from polyamory. However, I don't think it's as pivotal as it seems. Relationships are much more than sex. I would have no problem accepting an asexual as poly or monogamous. Is it sex or just a heightened level of intimacy relative to your friends that bothers you?
Posts: 267 | From: Glasgow | Registered: Nov 2007
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gel
Apprentice
# 17567
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Posted
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Originally posted by Yorick:
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Originally posted by Lord Clonk:
I personally find it to be much more big and meaningful to say that you love someone so much that, if they were to find someone who they'd be happier with, then you'd wish them to pursue that rather than be tied to you (assuming the hurt it causes you doesn't cancel out the good gained by making the switch, which is a fair assumption since your partner presumably cares about you a lot).
This.
How can it be argued that marriage is better, ideologically speaking, than this sort of arrangement? Marriage is terribly selfish, as its bonds allow people to prevent their spouses from being free.
no. I mean marriage is not selfish.. We have our free will. That is why before we decide to take the marriage road we must think about it all over again... If possible think a million times so that you will not regret your decision when time comes. Marriage life is full of tests so make it sure that you and your partner as a strong foundation to make it last indeed marriage is a holy matrimony that needs to be valued.
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Churchgoers Children Choir Robes
Churchgoers Women Clergy Rob
Posts: 5 | From: Hampden, ND | Registered: Feb 2013
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Marriage can be a series of blessed events, but one must work v. hard on it. We have 35 years coming up this June...
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I have come across only one polyamorous situation irl where it hasn't eventually turned into a couple with one person going their own way. And to be honest, I have serious doubts about the longer term future of that one relationship I mention.
My issue with it as a relationship model is that it doesn't seem to work. I realise many people breakup in couples etc, but it is specifically that poly groups seem to eventually default to couple (often in a rather painful messy way).
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lord Clonk
Shipmate
# 13205
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I have come across only one polyamorous situation irl where it hasn't eventually turned into a couple with one person going their own way. And to be honest, I have serious doubts about the longer term future of that one relationship I mention.
My issue with it as a relationship model is that it doesn't seem to work. I realise many people breakup in couples etc, but it is specifically that poly groups seem to eventually default to couple (often in a rather painful messy way).
I don't know how generalisable your experience, but I do think there is more chance of polyamorous relationships working out nowadays because of the internet where the poly community can learn from one another... just like monogamous people benefit from collective wisdom about their chosen relationship style.
Considering how mobile people are nowadays, defaulting to being a couple seems likely in the sense that you pretty much have to pick who you're going to follow around... so the relationship(s) that you plan your life around are going to be a lot more stable than the relationships that you can't. I don't know if this relates to your observations though.
Posts: 267 | From: Glasgow | Registered: Nov 2007
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
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Originally posted by Lord Clonk:
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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
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Originally posted by ecumaniac:
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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
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Originally posted by ecumaniac:
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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Well, Lord C, I guess I get hung up on two things with polyamory. One is there is no stability, as I define it. When your lover is free to be with others, there is a risk that they will find that person more fulfilling and leave you.
Isn't there a risk that your monogamous partner will leave you too?
Sure, but not as much as when your partner is sleeping with others and spending quality time with others!
PIcking up on the "quality time" thing - is it not to be expected that one's partner will continue to spend quality time with other people? Workmates? Close friends that he/she had before he/she met you?
Of course people who are monogamously inclined should not be forced into tolerating poly arrangements (obviously) but I don't think extracting monogamous promises from someone is a good guarantee of them not leaving.
I agree that extracting monogamous promises isn't
a good guarantee. I've pretty much maintained that stance.
Just like IngoB's question of whether or not making a promise such as marriage is valuable is the essential question in terms of the marriage question, the essential question on this polyamory issue, at least for me, is not so much "quality time" but whether or not sex makes it more likely that a stronger bond will be made between the two people. But it seems that the sex question is kind of the elephant in the room. But for me, it is the salient question.
So... Are you saying that sex is bad outside of a monogamous relationship because it strengthens and sometimes forges bonds with other people, or are you saying that it does bad stuff in polyamory?
The sex question is very interesting when talking about monogamy/polyamory because it's the thing that superficially makes monogamy different from polyamory. However, I don't think it's as pivotal as it seems. Relationships are much more than sex. I would have no problem accepting an asexual as poly or monogamous. Is it sex or just a heightened level of intimacy relative to your friends that bothers you?
Thanks for replying. My questions and arguments are fueled by curiosity and a desire to understand relationships better and not by any conviction that I may hold regarding the "right" form of a relationship.
I wouldn't say that sharing intimacy of any kind outside of a specific couple does "bad stuff to polyamory", because I don't know much about polyamory and have not personally experienced it. I haven't even met anyone that is in any kind of polyamorous relationship other than the one couple I mentioned, who I'm pretty sure broke up. But that tells me nothing about polyamory in general.
As far as monogamous relationships, yes, I'm saying that sex outside of that relationship is "bad" because it forges bonds between those outside of the couple and threatens the couple. It also, obviously, is a betrayal of the specific parameters of the relationship. But those parameters were sent up, willingly, by the couple, to solidify that union and protect it from outside influences.
I would imagine that this is not bad for polyamory because it is already stated that this is how the relationship will be structured. I would also imagine that the bonds that polyamorous couples make with those outside of the primary relationship, or any specific coupling, threaten the same bond in the same way. However, obviously, this is to be expected and benefits are acknowledged and then it's not so much of a threat. I would think.
I also realize that sex is only one aspect of the relationship. I fully believe that sex is not love and that you can have sex without love and love without sex. I'm not sure how pivotal it is for others, I guess it depends on your individual feelings on the matter. And maybe your individual feelings on the matter at various stages of your life.
I considered your comment about asexual people quite a bit while I found time to reply. I have a hard time understanding asexuality the same way I have of understanding polyamory. But just because its foreign to me doesn't make it bad. I guess I could see an asexual person in a polyamorous or monogamous relationship if they share other intimate aspects of their life. Such as living together, raising children, making all life decisions together (or at least making all decisions on your life with the input of your partner), spending intimate time together. Which brings us to the intimacy question.
To answer your question bluntly, the sex aspect bothers me the most, but also the idea of a partner spending intimate time together with another also bothers me because it most definitly threatens the primary relationship.
I spend intimate times with my friends, I guess, if you say that talking for hours about personal issues, whether in a light hearted manner or in a serious manner is intimate. But with my friends, there is no chance of sexual contact because, well, lots of reasons! The main one being is that my best friends are women and I don't lean that way towards the sexual orientation spectrum. (Which is how I view sexual orientation). I do have a few male friends that could possibly be close friends based on mutual perspectives and experiences and I do believe that I probably don't pursue such a relationship solely because they are male and it would seem threatening (or would be threatening) to my primary relationship with my husband. Which on one hand is kind of a shame because I am not "free" to pursue a friendship with these kind of people and therefore am limiting myself and on the other hand, it is what it is. I am in a LTR where the parameters are such that I "close myself off" from outside influences and I am in this relationship willingly. I purposefully choose (and I have had opportunity to actively choose) to protect my marriage and inhibit my behavior to an extent, for the benefits that a LTR provide me personally.
Time spent with others that could be described as intimate, to an extent that it closes off intimate times spent with a partner, does threaten that relationship.
And trying to answer the question, succinctly, (I kind of feel that I am thinking and processing while I write and therefore I'm probably rambling), yes, personally, I feel that sex is a powerful bonding activity and does forge bonds. I would think that that would depend on how important sex is to a person.
Just to give you a clearer picture of who I am, before I was married I was certainly not the kind of person that "saved myself" for any one person and I enjoyed "recreational sex" (right or wrong,shrug) for a time. However, my experiences tells me that, for me, repeated intimate relations with one person forges a bond. I don't know if that is TMI, but that's how I tend to communicate. So, sex Is a heightened level of intimacy relative to my friends. But not the only one I guess.
And just in closing, while I was busy the past 48 hours or so, I kept wanting to reply but didn't have time because I had things to do in regards to my job (obviously, which btw, is very much about relationships),and things to do in relation to my primary relationships, my husband and my son. And frankly, adding more relationships into my already full life sounds exhausting! And I truly wonder how polyamorous people do it and still do justice to each relationship.
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Lord Clonk
Shipmate
# 13205
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Posted
Thank you for taking the time to write all that out. I found it most interesting. I don't think I have anything to add.
Posts: 267 | From: Glasgow | Registered: Nov 2007
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