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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Gun control in the US
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
For the record, many of us gun owners think Alex Jones is an ass. Someone on one of the gun forums I'm on said "How did we end up with Alex Jones as our spokesperson?"
He isn't our spokesperson unless you talk to people like Alex Jones and Piers Morgan and what is their word worth to you?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
That said, Piers Morgan is equally an ass and has been tossing out misleading and sometimes flat out wrong statistics.
He's definitely an ass. But I don't think you can call those statistics misleading. They may be slightly different from the statistics Fox found, (since different sources always differ on precise numbers) but they present pretty much the same point. 11000 deaths compared to 35 deaths is qualitiatively the same as 7,923 deaths compared with 56. It still shows that gun deaths in America are ridiculously high compared to other civilised countries, in fact even when compared to the 'most violent' country in Europe, they are ridiculously high.
Ben Swann, like many gun advocates, much prefers bait-and-switch to real debate. When Peirs talks about gun deaths he changes the argument to violent crime, or overal crime, anything to avoid referring to the issue at hand - gun homicides. And though Piers compares the US to the UK, Ben switches it to comparing the UK to the EU. Oh dear.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
One of the more serious problems with the argument against restrictions on gun ownership is the idea that there are "good guys" and "bad guys" -- the whole "only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun," "if you ban guns only criminals will have guns" thing. Ordinary Americans who buy guns for self-protection aren't bad guys or good guys -- they're just people with guns. People who have bought guns used later by their adolescent children to kill themselves aren't bad guys or good guys. People who have packed guns into situations in which they felt unsafe and then used them in a manner later determined to be criminal didn't think they were bad guys when they bought the guns or when they left their homes armed. We've got to grow up and leave behind this silly Hollywood Wild West notion of good guys and bad guys and look at reality.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
I can't remember who exactly made this observation, but let's remember that Obama is a constitutional scholar. He knows what the 2nd Amendment says. He also knows what it doesn't say. USA citizens have the right to keep and bear arms, but there's no 2nd Amendment rights for gun manufacturers or dealers or shows; there's no absolute right to buy and sell arms anywhere and everywhere to anyone.
And just to show how much the NRA fetishizes guns, here's this: NRA vows to stop Tucson from destroying guns.
quote:
... Rathner says Arizona state law forces local governments to sell seized or abandoned property to the highest bidder.
"If property has been abandoned to the police, then they are required by ARS 12-945 to sell it to a federally licensed firearms dealer, and that's exactly what they should do," he says.
That way, Rathner says, the guns can be put back in circulation or given away. ...
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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monkeylizard
Ship's scurvy
# 952
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
And just to show how much the NRA fetishizes guns, here's this: NRA vows to stop Tucson from destroying guns.
quote:
... Rathner says Arizona state law forces local governments to sell seized or abandoned property to the highest bidder.
"If property has been abandoned to the police, then they are required by ARS 12-945 to sell it to a federally licensed firearms dealer, and that's exactly what they should do," he says.
That way, Rathner says, the guns can be put back in circulation or given away. ...
And the NRA would be 100% right on that. AZ state law does indeed prohibit it and the local LEO has no authority to do as he/she pleases.
In this era of budget crunches, it amazes me that law enforcement offices keep doing this. They'll turn a $2,000 gun into $20 worth of scrap, then cry when they don't get a raise, or can't afford new equipment.
It happens here in my own state of TN. We have a state law prohibiting it, but the Nashville PD does it anyway without consequences. I wish the NRA would come here and try to stop it. There are some nice guns going up that conveyor belt getting turned into steel confetti. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) Others are probably worth more as confetti.
What's worse is that many of the scrapped guns are never checked to see if they were reported stolen to be returned to their rightful owners. It's like having your car recovered after a theft (possibly in just as good condition as when stolen) and the cops just taking it to the junk yard and pocketing the cash without ever telling you about it.
[ 10. January 2013, 19:40: Message edited by: monkeylizard ]
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)
Posts: 2201 | From: Music City, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Another school shooting today in California. Jeez.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Going to the incontrovertible wikipedia, the figures I get are: overall murder rate 4.8 per 100k per year for USA vs 1.2 for the UK and 1.0 per 100k for Western Europe.
For gun murders I get 3.7 per 100k for the USA and 0.04 per 100k for UK.
For suicide rates I get 12 per 100k for USA and 6.9 per 100k for UK. Of which gun-related are 6.1 per 100k for the US and 0.17 for UK.
So it isn't true that in the UK or in the rest of Europe the lack of gun-related murders are compensated for by non-gun-related murders. And ditto for suicides.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
monkeylizard, the point of gun buybacks is to get rid of guns, not recycle them!
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
monkeylizard,
Our daughters live in TN but still have NC drivers licenses. Do you know if any of them that decide to carry need to be an official TN resident to get TN ccw permits or do they need to come home for training and use their NC issued ccw permits there?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
If tests were ever introduced, to judge if someone is reasonably safe to own a gun, I would have thought that Alex Jones would fail to qualify. He doesn't look like the most level headed of chaps in that clip.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
monkeylizard,
Our daughters live in TN but still have NC drivers licenses.
I don't know about TN but in some states that's against the law.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
monkeylizard,
Our daughters live in TN but still have NC drivers licenses.
I don't know about TN but in some states that's against the law.
It would be difficult to claim they are still college students since only one really is. It's about cell phones and auto insurance when you boil it down.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Oooh. I see. It is officially the take a poke at Americans thread so it is OK.
I think you ought to start a thread about American fundamentalists so you can have a go at them too.
Maybe you could have a go at the American lack of subtlety. I always appreciated being told I was not subtle because I was an American.
Why not go for a trifecta?
Since the topic under discussion is an attempt to understand why one particular "western developed" nation has such a hugely exponentially higher rate of gun deaths than any other such nation, obviously that nation will be singled out. Is it other countries' faults that the USA has such a barbaric distinction? And the issue is of legitimate concern to other countries since the USA is still (for now) the most powerful country in the world and perhaps some might be concerned about how the USA may interact with them given the way it deals (or fails to deal) with its own internal pathologies.
[ 11. January 2013, 01:27: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
If tests were ever introduced, to judge if someone is reasonably safe to own a gun, I would have thought that Alex Jones would fail to qualify. He doesn't look like the most level headed of chaps in that clip.
I bet $5 they rehearsed it a few times.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
One of the more serious problems with the argument against restrictions on gun ownership is the idea that there are "good guys" and "bad guys" -- the whole "only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun," "if you ban guns only criminals will have guns" thing. Ordinary Americans who buy guns for self-protection aren't bad guys or good guys -- they're just people with guns. People who have bought guns used later by their adolescent children to kill themselves aren't bad guys or good guys. People who have packed guns into situations in which they felt unsafe and then used them in a manner later determined to be criminal didn't think they were bad guys when they bought the guns or when they left their homes armed. We've got to grow up and leave behind this silly Hollywood Wild West notion of good guys and bad guys and look at reality.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
The purpose of a gun is to kill. If you don't have a gun then one way of killing is removed. Having a gun for self defence means that someone else then needs a gun and the problem snowballs.
Why then do people insist they need guns and tend to espouse this desire with religious fervour.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
monkeylizard, the point of gun buybacks is to get rid of guns, not recycle them!
In Seattle, they get recycled... into rebar
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
Another school shooting today in California. Jeez.
A student armed with a shotgun shot one student and fired at others and missed before a teacher talked him into surrendering.
The victim is in a stable condition.
That's a perfect example of the difference between an attempted massacre with a shotgun and one with a semi-automatic weapon. Not one death vs 28.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
]A student armed with a shotgun shot one student and fired at others and missed before a teacher talked him into surrendering.
The victim is in a stable condition.
That's a perfect example of the difference between an attempted massacre with a shotgun and one with a semi-automatic weapon. Not one death vs 28.
This also disproves the "only a Good Guy with a gun can stop a Bad Guy with a gun" trope.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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Clint Boggis
Shipmate
# 633
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
One of the more serious problems with the argument against restrictions on gun ownership is the idea that there are "good guys" and "bad guys" -- the whole "only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun," "if you ban guns only criminals will have guns" thing. Ordinary Americans who buy guns for self-protection aren't bad guys or good guys -- they're just people with guns. People who have bought guns used later by their adolescent children to kill themselves aren't bad guys or good guys. People who have packed guns into situations in which they felt unsafe and then used them in a manner later determined to be criminal didn't think they were bad guys when they bought the guns or when they left their homes armed. We've got to grow up and leave behind this silly Hollywood Wild West notion of good guys and bad guys and look at reality.
To tell them apart, maybe they should wear different colour hats...
Posts: 1505 | From: south coast | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clint Boggis:
To tell them apart, maybe they should wear different colour hats...
Or we could look at what property they are standing on, ask witnesses, etc., those sorts of things people trying to look at things realistically try to do.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Is it other countries' faults that the USA has such a barbaric distinction?
Hmmmm... have the other countries ever been militarily rescued by the barbarians?
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Is it other countries' faults that the USA has such a barbaric distinction?
Hmmmm... have the other countries ever been militarily rescued by the barbarians?
By professional solidiers which has both didly and squat to do with guns in private hands.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Is it other countries' faults that the USA has such a barbaric distinction?
Hmmmm... have the other countries ever been militarily rescued by the barbarians?
By professional solidiers which has both didly and squat to do with guns in private hands.
More like "by draftees who learned most of their shooting skills in civilian life prior to military service, not in the short training time allotted by Uncle Sam".
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
More like "by draftees who learned most of their shooting skills in civilian life prior to military service, not in the short training time allotted by Uncle Sam".
Fishpiss. I'd be very surprised if you could substantiate that opinion.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
McDonald's Mistaken Order Leads To Shotgun Blast, Police Standoff
A minor incident. Fortunately, there were no injuries and only minor property damage and lost sales. The weapon was a shotgun, which I think most people in the USA agree is ok for a citizen to have. (I do too, for that matter.) It doesn't appear than anyone involved in the incident was mentally ill, or a convicted criminal. The gun was not being used in another criminal purpose, such as dealing drugs. A crowbar was also used in the incident, so it wasn't just gun violence. It wasn't a "crime of passion" or an argument over huge amounts of money or property a lost job. There were no "good guys" or "bad guys", just ordinary folks doing ordinary things.
This incident doesn't fit into any of the typical narratives of USA gun violence. It's just some people who had a dispute about something really minor, and one of them had a gun. Lots of ordinary people worked and ate at that McDonald's that day, and it is only because of sheer luck that they and the police officers involved went home that night. It also utterly debunks the notion that an armed society is a polite society.
Is this really what the 2nd Amendment was written for? It wasn't self-defense, it wasn't an intrusion on someone's property, it wasn't sport shooting, it wasn't reserve or militia activity, it certainly wasn't hunting for food.
It was just people who lost their temper over something really insignificant and used whatever was handy to turn it into a violent confrontation. Why? Why is it that so many USA gun owners can't seem to stop and ask themselves, BEFORE reaching for their weapon, why they would want to kill someone over the order of service in the drive-thru? And no, it isn't because humans are humans, because this shit just doesn't happen, or doesn't happen as often, in other developed countries.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
More like "by draftees who learned most of their shooting skills in civilian life prior to military service, not in the short training time allotted by Uncle Sam".
Fishpiss. I'd be very surprised if you could substantiate that opinion.
Fishpiss yourself.
1) The U.S. Army in both World Wars consisted primarily of conscripts, not "professional soldiers"- U.S. isolationist policy at the time meant the standing army was quite small.
2) Basic training during WWII was roughly 12 weeks (the exact duration changed over the course of the war according to demand for replacement troops). In those 12 weeks, shooting was only one of many topics that needed covering; fairly reasonable to assume they weren't producing expert shooters in that compressed timeframe, no?
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
fairly reasonable to assume they weren't producing expert shooters in that compressed timeframe, no?
No. It should hardly need to be mentioned that picking off pigeons with a slingshot is not the same thing as picking off enemy with a machine gun.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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JonahMan
Shipmate
# 12126
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
More like "by draftees who learned most of their shooting skills in civilian life prior to military service, not in the short training time allotted by Uncle Sam".
Fishpiss. I'd be very surprised if you could substantiate that opinion.
Fishpiss yourself.
1) The U.S. Army in both World Wars consisted primarily of conscripts, not "professional soldiers"- U.S. isolationist policy at the time meant the standing army was quite small.
2) Basic training during WWII was roughly 12 weeks (the exact duration changed over the course of the war according to demand for replacement troops). In those 12 weeks, shooting was only one of many topics that needed covering; fairly reasonable to assume they weren't producing expert shooters in that compressed timeframe, no?
You're right that 12 weeks basic training didn't produce expert shooters. But then, most infantrymen weren't expert shooters; in combat half of them didn't fire their weapons at all, and hardly any of those that did hit what they were aiming at.
The British army had a similar length of training (possibly a bit less if I remember correctly) and they were, on the whole, just as good or bad as the US troops.
Therefore any civilian skills in shooting that they brought with them made little difference - if only because a battle is rather different to shooting at bottles, deer etc
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Thank God for the aged
And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave
Posts: 914 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Dec 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
IIRC, the initial casualty for American soldiers in WWI was very high. Which rather negates your viewpoint, jbohn.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IIRC, the initial casualty for American soldiers in WWI was very high. Which rather negates your viewpoint, jbohn.
As well as yours- the "professional" soldiers didn't too terribly well, if what you say is true.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I always understood British riflemen were renowned for accurate and well drilled firing . So effective in fact that during one encounter in WW1 the German army mistook rapid rifle fire for machine-gun fire.
It's really quite fascinating hearing the reasons gun-owners will come up with to justify having fire-arms in their houses.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IIRC, the initial casualty for American soldiers in WWI was very high. Which rather negates your viewpoint, jbohn.
That is largely because their enemy was entrenched and hidden and they were largely walking without cover across open land towards him. Going over the top was bad for everybody, expert marksman or not, when there were well-defended machine gun emplacements facing them.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IIRC, the initial casualty for American soldiers in WWI was very high. Which rather negates your viewpoint, jbohn.
As well as yours- the "professional" soldiers didn't too terribly well, if what you say is true.
Because the U.S. had a small standing army, there was a heavy draft. The casualties from the poor initial training led to improved training and improved results. The point is, if these sharpshooting farm-boys of yours had been any good, revamping the training would not have been needed. There is a myth of the farmer militiaman from the American Revolution which has persisted through the years. Once again, the regular army won the day for the Americans,* not the citizen militia. BTW, the Second Amendment says Well regulated militia. Not yahoos with guns.
* and a massive amount of support from the French, long supply lines for the British, etc.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
It's really quite fascinating hearing the reasons gun-owners will come up with to justify having fire-arms in their houses.
I'm fascinated that you think it's any of your business.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IIRC, the initial casualty for American soldiers in WWI was very high. Which rather negates your viewpoint, jbohn.
That is largely because their enemy was entrenched and hidden and they were largely walking without cover across open land towards him. Going over the top was bad for everybody, expert marksman or not, when there were well-defended machine gun emplacements facing them.
ISTM, the lack of training, and lack of cooperation between Americans and the French and British troops, led to more casualties than necessary. Not simply the realities of trench warfare. It was lessons learned and better subsequent training which made the American troops a later asset.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
It's really quite fascinating hearing the reasons gun-owners will come up with to justify having fire-arms in their houses.
I'm fascinated that you think it's any of your business.
Yeah, the nerve of him discussing something on a discussion forum.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
It's really quite fascinating hearing the reasons gun-owners will come up with to justify having fire-arms in their houses.
I'm fascinated that you think it's any of your business.
Yeah, the nerve of him discussing something on a discussion forum.
No shit. How dare he talk about things people say about themselves in the media.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
It's really quite fascinating hearing the reasons gun-owners will come up with to justify having fire-arms in their houses.
I'm fascinated that you think it's any of your business.
Yeah, the nerve of him discussing something on a discussion forum.
A discussion is one thing but thinking someone owes him a justification for something is just silly.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I'm fascinated that you think it's any of your business.
I rather it wasn't . I rather US gun massacres were kept off UK news reports.
However history has deemed our two countries to be close despite the expanse of water that lies between us.
Do the majority of Americans really believe there is no problem at all with widespread ownership of semi-automatic weapons , lax gun laws, or the frequency of random shootings ?
If so then you can rest assured that I don't give a flying fig what goes on over there either.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
The majority of us feel that there is indeed a problem but we feel powerless against the forces that seem to be amassed against reason and decency. I fear that only God will be able to sort this all out. The prayers of all of you, including our cousins elsewhere in the world, are greatly appreciated.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
It's really quite fascinating hearing the reasons gun-owners will come up with to justify having fire-arms in their houses.
I'm fascinated that you think it's any of your business.
Yeah, the nerve of him discussing something on a discussion forum.
A discussion is one thing but thinking someone owes him a justification for something is just silly.
Oh, I don't know. Who makes up the U.S. military? Volunteers drawn from the U.S. populace. I'll go out on a limb here and guess that rabidly anti-gun U.S. citizens do not make up the bulk of these volunteers, who are deployed in 150 countries around the world, carrying their views, attitudes, and mindsets with them.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Oh, I don't know. Who makes up the U.S. military? Volunteers drawn from the U.S. populace. I'll go out on a limb here and guess that rabidly anti-gun U.S. citizens do not make up the bulk of these volunteers, who are deployed in 150 countries around the world, carrying their views, attitudes, and mindsets with them.
I don't know that you can make that assumption. I don't know how the US military falls on the question, but I do know that US law enforcement organizations pretty much universally endorse gun control. I don't think it's too much of a leap to assume that our military might similarly feel that some restrictions might be appropriate.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Oh, I don't know. Who makes up the U.S. military? Volunteers drawn from the U.S. populace. I'll go out on a limb here and guess that rabidly anti-gun U.S. citizens do not make up the bulk of these volunteers, who are deployed in 150 countries around the world, carrying their views, attitudes, and mindsets with them.
I don't know that you can make that assumption. I don't know how the US military falls on the question, but I do know that US law enforcement organizations pretty much universally endorse gun control. I don't think it's too much of a leap to assume that our military might similarly feel that some restrictions might be appropriate.
No doubt. And feeling "that some restrictions might be appropriate" equates to "rabidly anti-gun" how, exactly?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I don't know that you can make that assumption. I don't know how the US military falls on the question, but I do know that US law enforcement organizations pretty much universally endorse gun control. I don't think it's too much of a leap to assume that our military might similarly feel that some restrictions might be appropriate.
I might point out here that while several law enforcement organizations indeed favor gun control of one form or another, quite a lot of individual law enforcement professionals are on the other side of the debate.
It's not all that odd, really- Lord knows my union takes some political positions that make me cringe on occasion. Usually because I have a hard time figuring out what an education union has to do with issues completely unrelated to education...
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
No doubt. And feeling "that some restrictions might be appropriate" equates to "rabidly anti-gun" how, exactly?
OK, fair 'nuff. otoh, I am unconvinced that there is ANY real "rabidly anti-gun" contingent in the US-- in the military or otherwise. The current debate centers almost exclusively on (at least to me) reasonable restrictions.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
The majority of us feel that there is indeed a problem but we feel powerless against the forces that seem to be amassed against reason and decency. I fear that only God will be able to sort this all out. The prayers of all of you, including our cousins elsewhere in the world, are greatly appreciated.
I'm one of many who are praying for the USA over this issue. (And if I'm bigoted, or narrow minded, in this I'm asking God to ignore those prayers and give me a better understanding instead.)
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
The majority of us feel that there is indeed a problem but we feel powerless against the forces that seem to be amassed against reason and decency. I fear that only God will be able to sort this all out. The prayers of all of you, including our cousins elsewhere in the world, are greatly appreciated.
I'm one of many who are praying for the USA over this issue. (And if I'm bigoted, or narrow minded, in this I'm asking God to ignore those prayers and give me a better understanding instead.)
As an American, I echo Amanda's words, and thank you, Robert, for your kind & humble words and prayers. They are much appreciated.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I am unconvinced that there is ANY real "rabidly anti-gun" contingent in the US-- in the military or otherwise.
The rabidly anti-gun contingent is a fantasy of the rabidly pro-gun contingent, which DOES exist. They fondly imagine that because they are batshit crazy in one direction, there must be people who are equally batshit crazy but in the other direction. It's the old false equivalence bullshit that Fox News calls "fair and balanced."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I am unconvinced that there is ANY real "rabidly anti-gun" contingent in the US-- in the military or otherwise.
The rabidly anti-gun contingent is a fantasy of the rabidly pro-gun contingent, which DOES exist. They fondly imagine that because they are batshit crazy in one direction, there must be people who are equally batshit crazy but in the other direction. It's the old false equivalence bullshit that Fox News calls "fair and balanced."
I'm sure there are a few around who get very, very angry and swear a lot in the cause of gun control. Whether they would insist on the police being authorised to shoot to kill any civilian carrying a gun is to go further. Let's face it though, the squeaky wheels get the attention and hence make good copy wherever they happen to be and editors want that. Heck, just look at the Christians the media digs out for public display; Phelps, Stephen Green, Ian Paisley, Terry Jones (the Koran-burner, not the Python)......
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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