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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: White Smoke! Discuss the new pope...
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
True story: I once got into an argument with one of my confirmation kids trying to explain that Schroedinger's cat is a thought experiment about the quantum level of existence, and that an actual cat in the experiment would certainly be dead, even if no one looked.
Ummm, no. The whole point of the Schrödinger box is that it's only fatal to the cat 50% of the time. It's the uncertainty that the thought experiment is supposed to illustrate.
On the macro scale, the cat is most certainly either alive or dead, if you were to conduct the experiment.
Please note that being "certainly either alive or dead" is very different than "certainly be dead".
To illustrate this using a somewhat tasteless papal example (because why not?), take two conversations:
quote:
Q: How's Benedict XIV?
A: He's dead.
versus
quote:
Q: How's Benedict XIV?
A: He's either alive or dead.
These are not even remotely equivalent to each other.
[ 13. March 2013, 19:38: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
On the macro scale, the cat is most certainly either alive or dead...
And if extraneous influences, such as fresh air, are excluded, we can take a pretty good guess at which...
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is a plenary indulgence ? (Impressed with the shout out to twitter.)
By fulfilling certain conditions one can have the temporal punishment (purgatory) removed for all sins already forgiven. All nonsense, of course, but that's what it means.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
To my surprise I'm impressed. He seems warm and likeable. Was asking the crowd to pray for him before he blessed them an innovation? It felt modest and disarming.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
I can't understand any more than his body language, but he appears as a confident leader and teacher to me, and close to the popular. Good on him for getting a laugh inside the first minute of speaking.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
First Argentinian pope.
First South American pope.
First Jesuit pope.
First Francis.
Anyone know how he stands on liturgy?
Commentators implying he goes with more stripped down, less ornate, liturgy. They noted particularly he didn't sing the blessing.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It does seem to be a clear - things are different message, which is positive.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Unassuming, modest and Franciscan in spirit. I get the impression that this one is spiritual and he lives what he preaches.
And I agree with Twilight. There's an innate kindness and simplicity about him. First impressions and all that, but I like him very much so far.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Una Papa ab ultra leuia!
[ 13. March 2013, 19:41: Message edited by: Sober Preacher's Kid ]
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
First Argentinian pope.
First South American pope.
First Jesuit pope.
First Francis.
Anyone know how he stands on liturgy?
Commentators implying he goes with more stripped down, less ornate, liturgy. They noted particularly he didn't sing the blessing.
So where does he stand with regards to Benedict's reform of the reform and the Tridentine rite?
[ 13. March 2013, 19:42: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
I'm impressed he's had the imagination to pick a new Papal name. About time, there's been too many Johns already.
And nothing wrong with being a Jesuit. As long as he doesn't try and assassinate the Queen or conquer Japan, it'll be fine.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
To me I think it is significant that his first act of worship was communal, the recitation of Lord's Prayer, Hail Mary and Gloria (the prayers nearly all the faithful could recite by heart); that was followed by a request for the crowd to pray for him, before he blessed. It makes worship communal and reciprocal.
It invokes a dynamic that I recognise occassionally in Reformed worship but find even more rarer in higher traditions.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Well, that was different! Beginnings are very important; that felt like a good one.
What's the significance of membership of the Liberation Community?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
Impressive how he got the excited, shouting, flag-waving, noisy and bubbly crowds to silence and pray for him.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
I liked his informality, his asking the people to pray for him, (WAS that an innovation??) his saying at the end, OK I'll leave you now, but see you soon...ci vediamo presto!
Also I liked his first words being about his role as Bishop of Rome.
And of course his choosing of the name Francis 1 is very appealing and inspires hope, as Francis is a saint beloved by so many in the world, far beyond just the Catholic church.
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Pondering.
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
The next days will juxtapose his humble first minutes as a Pope, his silencing of the crowds, the look on his face as he stood on that balcony and the potentially programmatic choice of his name with the question of what he did or did not do during the Dirty War in Argentina, the question of the Jesuits' consternation over his closeness to Community & Liberation.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
So where does he stand with regards to Benedict's reform of the reform and the Tridentine rite?
It's hard to know for certain so soon, but I suspect it's not as important to him as it was to Benedict.
Somewhere (possibly on the Ship, but I don't think so...) I read someone speculating that the new pope would put an end to the "crap coming out of St. Louis". (This from someone of the ilk who thinks anything but Gregorian chant is a vile Vatican II innovation). Given that he's a Jesuit, it doesn't seem likely.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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bad man
Apprentice
# 17449
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
First Argentinian pope.
First South American pope.
First Jesuit pope.
First Francis.
Anyone know how he stands on liturgy?
Commentators implying he goes with more stripped down, less ornate, liturgy. They noted particularly he didn't sing the blessing.
So where does he stand with regards to Benedict's reform of the reform and the Tridentine rite?
The Tridentine rite is not his bag at all. Look at the comments on the Rorate Caeli website for wailing and gnashing of teeth which may answer your question. He has not been a promoter of Summorum Pontificum.
He came out in the simplest "piano" dress, with no mozzetta. He took the stole off. He prayed with the people and spoke conversationally with them before and after the formal parts. He did not intone; he spoke.
He's not your man, Ad Orientem.
Posts: 49 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Nov 2012
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is a plenary indulgence ? (Impressed with the shout out to twitter.)
By fulfilling certain conditions one can have the temporal punishment (purgatory) removed for all sins already forgiven. All nonsense, of course, but that's what it means.
Nonsense or not, as my wife's Jewish aunt and uncle said at our Christian wedding when offered a blessing, I'll take any blessing I can get!
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
That was genuinely beautiful. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
After watching his initial blessing, I haven't felt this good about a new Pope since +++John Paul I of short but blessed memory.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
I wonder what his name signifies. I'd been assuming it was a reference to St Francis of Assisi, which could signify a desire to purify and rebuild the RCC. Certainly all that Channel 4 could say about him was very positive: a humble man, as Archbishop lived in a modest flat rather than the palace, and did his own cooking. Well, whatever qualities he turns out to have may God bless him, and use him to bless the whole Church ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) .
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Best I can tell from a quick web surf, Francis I is a conservative on doctrinal issues and a progressive on social justice. He certainly is no trad. He has broken the regular ceremony for the appearance on the balcony (dress, ritual), stressing simplicity and prayerfulness. That was a rather strong statement already.
(Doublethink, a plenary indulgence means that - under certain conditions - all temporal punishment for one's sins is removed. It's not about going to heaven or hell then, but rather about dealing with the consequences of already forgiven sins in purgatory.)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I wonder what his name signifies. I'd been assuming it was a reference to St Francis of Assisi, which could signify a desire to purify and rebuild the RCC. Certainly all that Channel 4 could say about him was very positive: a humble man, as Archbishop lived in a modest flat rather than the palace, and did his own cooking. Well, whatever qualities he turns out to have may God bless him, and use him to bless the whole Church .
Given the simplicity of his presentation, I would say S. Francis of Assisi.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
Hear he's a bit of a Catholic Evo. St Francis is a figure most traditions warm to, was noted for living simply, and reckoned it was worth having a go reaching out to Muslims even in during a time of armed conflict. Don't know how much of all that the new Pope aspires to.
Says a lot about the cardinals that they reckon he's the man for the next phase of the life of the church.
Good day for Christendom I reckon.
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bad man:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
First Argentinian pope.
First South American pope.
First Jesuit pope.
First Francis.
Anyone know how he stands on liturgy?
Commentators implying he goes with more stripped down, less ornate, liturgy. They noted particularly he didn't sing the blessing.
So where does he stand with regards to Benedict's reform of the reform and the Tridentine rite?
The Tridentine rite is not his bag at all. Look at the comments on the Rorate Caeli website for wailing and gnashing of teeth which may answer your question. He has not been a promoter of Summorum Pontificum.
He came out in the simplest "piano" dress, with no mozzetta. He took the stole off. He prayed with the people and spoke conversationally with them before and after the formal parts. He did not intone; he spoke.
He's not your man, Ad Orientem.
That's what I was afraid of.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Says a lot about the cardinals that they reckon he's the man for the next phase of the life of the church.
Good day for Christendom I reckon.
This. I have a good feeling about this. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
Oh, and one piece of trivia from your desert girl who has travelled to Argentina many times...
Bergoglio used to be titular bishop of Auca.
And "Auca", in the local Mapuche (North Patagonian Indians)language, means "rebel".
Nomen sit omen...
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Could refer to Francis Xavier, seeing he's a Jesuit ...
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Given the simplicity of his presentation, I would say S. Francis of Assisi.
Actually, since he is a Jesuit I would say that St Francis Xavier (co-founder of the Society of Jesus) is as likely. In fact, given that St Francis Xavier was a famous missionary, I think the name choice very cleverly point to both saints.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
After watching his initial blessing, I haven't felt this good about a new Pope since +++John Paul I of short but blessed memory.
Yes, that was what I thought. This one could be the best thing that's happened to the church in years. He's someone who could win a lot of people over, I think - an engaging personality.
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bad man
Apprentice
# 17449
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Posted
I heard his words from the balcony as hinting that he might devolve power to bishops a bit. He said the duty of the Cardinals was to choose a "Bishop for Rome" and he asked the crowd to pray for their bishops.
Presenting himself first and foremost as Bishop of Rome and not as leader of the whole church may mean bishops in general are more important in his book.
I undertand he spoke out against the Curia in the pre-meetings and so part of his mandate may be, not simply to reform the Curia, but to make the whole organisation less dependent on its centre.
Posts: 49 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Nov 2012
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Given the simplicity of his presentation, I would say S. Francis of Assisi.
Actually, since he is a Jesuit I would say that St Francis Xavier (co-founder of the Society of Jesus) is as likely. In fact, given that St Francis Xavier was a famous missionary, I think the name choice very cleverly point to both saints.
Yes, that entirely makes sense.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Given the simplicity of his presentation, I would say S. Francis of Assisi.
Actually, since he is a Jesuit I would say that St Francis Xavier (co-founder of the Society of Jesus) is as likely. In fact, given that St Francis Xavier was a famous missionary, I think the name choice very cleverly point to both saints.
I guess it does point very cleverly to both saints--except surely a bit more towards St Francis of A, as don't you usually pick Xavier or Javier when calling someone after St Francis Xavier?
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Pondering.
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
I don't agree with everything he has said and done, but he seems nice and I like the name he has chosen.
Just prayed for him at EP. I know other Anglicans are doing so.
As a gay person (and an Anglican), I didn't expect much nor did I receive it, but I too prayed for him in his new ministry.
I reserve the right to say "Lighten up Francis" when he speaks though.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Monseigneur Strange predicted this last night - including the name I think (according to BBC news) I wonder if the conclave leaked.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I hope his days are long and healthy, and that he brings peace and healing to the church. And that he revokes the filioque of course.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Well, you never know your luck !
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Monseigneur Strange predicted this last night - including the name I think (according to BBC news) I wonder if the conclave leaked.
Not sure how it could have been leaked. They went through three more voting rounds today. It was probably just a pretty shrewd guess based on knowing the personalities as he did.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Una Papa ab ultra leuia!
Translation, please? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Does it say anything that he was chosen so quickly?
Rumour here is that he received a lot of votes at the previous conclave, so he started as a known papabile.
Seems to me that the feeling of hope that so many share when a new man takes office points to a deep dissatisfaction with how things are.
And the hope is somehow never entirely fulfilled; by the time of the next election, the service (I refuse to say reign) of Pope Francis will have become the unsatisfactory norm and we'll all be hopeful about the next guy...
Or am I too cynical ?
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
Congrats to my Catholic brothers and sisters on your new Pope!
This evangelical chickie finds the whole thing quite fascinating.
The first Francis! A South American! . A man who lived in a small flat in Buenos Ares and who spoke up for the poor. A man who, like the saint whose name he has taken on and the Jewish rabbi all Christians worship, seems to value gospel simplicity. May it be so. He seemed awed at first, when he appeared on the balcony, then very warm and personable.
My first impressions are very favourable. .
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Una Papa ab ultra leuia!
*A Pope from across the Seas!
A Non-Italian Pope is referred to as "Una Papa Ultramonta", "A Pope from beyond the Mountains (Alps)."
A little different in this case.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
I guess it does point very cleverly to both saints--except surely a bit more towards St Francis of A, as don't you usually pick Xavier or Javier when calling someone after St Francis Xavier?
Well, let's not forget that there's also St Francis Borgia, who among Jesuits is usually considered their second founder (as their arguably most successful General, who nevertheless was considered a humble saint even in his lifetime).
So I'm thinking that St Francis is already the intersection of two famous Jesuits, before we start considering the Franciscan St Francis.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
What does his age mean? Is he considered transitional, like his predecessor was called?
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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